Was the US Constitution doomed from the start?

[PratchettFan]

But one thing seems certain the the growth of government indicates the American people want the government to provide services to all its citizens as governments provided to the noble class of days gone by. Even your posts are evidence you believe that history.

dear, people wanted Hitler too but that does not make it right!!

No, no let's stick to the question, never mind Hitler. Has the government of the United States grown since it's inception? If so, have the people voted for that growth by electing representatives that voted for that growth? Have the Courts, approved that growth?
Welcome to America.

Very well put.

 

[gipper]

You make the mistake of believing the political class is actually abiding by the Constitution.

What more proof do you need then to understand that much of what the fed gov does, is unconstitutional?

Under the Constitution, the USSC decides disputes arising from the Constitution. What specifically are you referring to?

The USSC is supposed to be the final arbiter of whether a law is constitutional or not. It is clear that the USSC is a lawless entity, since nearly everything the fed gov does is unconstitutional.

The meaning of the Constitution was clearly and completely explained by the Founders. However the statists who took over our government, have expanded or bastardized its meaning.

So you're argument is that the Constitution is unconstitutional.

Please don't be absurd.

Tell me where in the Constitution it states the fed gov has the right to tax and subsidize food, housing, health care, education, or any other personal benefit of the PEOPLE of the United States?

I'm not the one being absurd. Have you actually tried to read the Constitution? You should give it a try.

As to taxes, I refer you to Article 1 Section 8. As to the rest, the pre-amble establishes the intent of the Constitution is to provide for the general welfare, among other things. The congress is given authority to enact laws, also under Article 1 Section 8, to meet that requirement.

Now, if one feels the Congress or President (or a state for that matter) has gone too far, then I would refer you to Article III, Section 2, which defines how such disputes are resolved.

If you have something more substantial than "I don't like it" to present, then please do so. If not, then I would offer that Amendment I gives you the right to not like it and express that opinion at the top of your voice. I would also offer that if the Constitution wasn't working, as you suggest, then you would not have that right. The very fact you are publicly claiming the Constitution does not work is elegant evidence that it does. Thank you.

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

 

[PratchettFan]

Under the Constitution, the USSC decides disputes arising from the Constitution. What specifically are you referring to?

The USSC is supposed to be the final arbiter of whether a law is constitutional or not. It is clear that the USSC is a lawless entity, since nearly everything the fed gov does is unconstitutional.

The meaning of the Constitution was clearly and completely explained by the Founders. However the statists who took over our government, have expanded or bastardized its meaning.

So you're argument is that the Constitution is unconstitutional.

Please don't be absurd.

Tell me where in the Constitution it states the fed gov has the right to tax and subsidize food, housing, health care, education, or any other personal benefit of the PEOPLE of the United States?

I'm not the one being absurd. Have you actually tried to read the Constitution? You should give it a try.

As to taxes, I refer you to Article 1 Section 8. As to the rest, the pre-amble establishes the intent of the Constitution is to provide for the general welfare, among other things. The congress is given authority to enact laws, also under Article 1 Section 8, to meet that requirement.

Now, if one feels the Congress or President (or a state for that matter) has gone too far, then I would refer you to Article III, Section 2, which defines how such disputes are resolved.

If you have something more substantial than "I don't like it" to present, then please do so. If not, then I would offer that Amendment I gives you the right to not like it and express that opinion at the top of your voice. I would also offer that if the Constitution wasn't working, as you suggest, then you would not have that right. The very fact you are publicly claiming the Constitution does not work is elegant evidence that it does. Thank you.

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

 

[gipper]

The USSC is supposed to be the final arbiter of whether a law is constitutional or not. It is clear that the USSC is a lawless entity, since nearly everything the fed gov does is unconstitutional.

The meaning of the Constitution was clearly and completely explained by the Founders. However the statists who took over our government, have expanded or bastardized its meaning.

So you're argument is that the Constitution is unconstitutional.

Please don't be absurd.

Tell me where in the Constitution it states the fed gov has the right to tax and subsidize food, housing, health care, education, or any other personal benefit of the PEOPLE of the United States?

I'm not the one being absurd. Have you actually tried to read the Constitution? You should give it a try.

As to taxes, I refer you to Article 1 Section 8. As to the rest, the pre-amble establishes the intent of the Constitution is to provide for the general welfare, among other things. The congress is given authority to enact laws, also under Article 1 Section 8, to meet that requirement.

Now, if one feels the Congress or President (or a state for that matter) has gone too far, then I would refer you to Article III, Section 2, which defines how such disputes are resolved.

If you have something more substantial than "I don't like it" to present, then please do so. If not, then I would offer that Amendment I gives you the right to not like it and express that opinion at the top of your voice. I would also offer that if the Constitution wasn't working, as you suggest, then you would not have that right. The very fact you are publicly claiming the Constitution does not work is elegant evidence that it does. Thank you.

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

Oh brother...you have to be kidding.

The government is US??? What a load of crap. The government is owned and controlled by powerful special interests. Not knowing this after all that has occurred, is proof you are uninformed.

And you really think the Constitution as written by the Founders, does not apply to a post-industrialized nation....REALLY??? So why are you defending it?

Was not the nation a pre-industrialized nation when it was written? So now that we are post-industrialized should it not work? What is it about the Constitution, when it was written, that does not work today? Please explain how the Bill of Rights is no longer applicable to our modern society.

Essentially our disagreement is you think government by elites, is workable. I do not and history proves me right.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

But one thing seems certain the the growth of government indicates the American people want the government to provide services to all its citizens as governments provided to the noble class of days gone by. Even your posts are evidence you believe that history.

dear, people wanted Hitler too but that does not make it right!!

No, no let's stick to the question, never mind Hitler. Has the government of the United States grown since it's inception? If so, have the people voted for that growth by electing representatives that voted for that growth? Have the Courts, approved that growth?
Welcome to America.

Very well put.

dear, nobody disputes what America has become or what Germany became. The issue is whether it is correct or just plain stupid and liberal.

 

[peach174]

The USSC is supposed to be the final arbiter of whether a law is constitutional or not. It is clear that the USSC is a lawless entity, since nearly everything the fed gov does is unconstitutional.

The meaning of the Constitution was clearly and completely explained by the Founders. However the statists who took over our government, have expanded or bastardized its meaning.

So you're argument is that the Constitution is unconstitutional.

Please don't be absurd.

Tell me where in the Constitution it states the fed gov has the right to tax and subsidize food, housing, health care, education, or any other personal benefit of the PEOPLE of the United States?

I'm not the one being absurd. Have you actually tried to read the Constitution? You should give it a try.

As to taxes, I refer you to Article 1 Section 8. As to the rest, the pre-amble establishes the intent of the Constitution is to provide for the general welfare, among other things. The congress is given authority to enact laws, also under Article 1 Section 8, to meet that requirement.

Now, if one feels the Congress or President (or a state for that matter) has gone too far, then I would refer you to Article III, Section 2, which defines how such disputes are resolved.

If you have something more substantial than "I don't like it" to present, then please do so. If not, then I would offer that Amendment I gives you the right to not like it and express that opinion at the top of your voice. I would also offer that if the Constitution wasn't working, as you suggest, then you would not have that right. The very fact you are publicly claiming the Constitution does not work is elegant evidence that it does. Thank you.

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

And the public education and health care is working so well run by the Government?
NO

 

[PratchettFan]

So you're argument is that the Constitution is unconstitutional.

Please don't be absurd.

Tell me where in the Constitution it states the fed gov has the right to tax and subsidize food, housing, health care, education, or any other personal benefit of the PEOPLE of the United States?

I'm not the one being absurd. Have you actually tried to read the Constitution? You should give it a try.

As to taxes, I refer you to Article 1 Section 8. As to the rest, the pre-amble establishes the intent of the Constitution is to provide for the general welfare, among other things. The congress is given authority to enact laws, also under Article 1 Section 8, to meet that requirement.

Now, if one feels the Congress or President (or a state for that matter) has gone too far, then I would refer you to Article III, Section 2, which defines how such disputes are resolved.

If you have something more substantial than "I don't like it" to present, then please do so. If not, then I would offer that Amendment I gives you the right to not like it and express that opinion at the top of your voice. I would also offer that if the Constitution wasn't working, as you suggest, then you would not have that right. The very fact you are publicly claiming the Constitution does not work is elegant evidence that it does. Thank you.

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

Oh brother...you have to be kidding.

The government is US??? What a load of crap. The government is owned and controlled by powerful special interests. Not knowing this after all that has occurred, is proof you are uninformed.

And you really think the Constitution as written by the Founders, does not apply to a post-industrialized nation....REALLY??? So why are you defending it?

Was not the nation a pre-industrialized nation when it was written? So now that we are post-industrialized should it not work? What is it about the Constitution, when it was written, that does not work today? Please explain how the Bill of Rights is no longer applicable to our modern society.

Essentially our disagreement is you think government by elites, is workable. I do not and history proves me right.

Yes. The government is US. If you think that is not the case, if you think it is run by elites, unworkable and you are being put upon, then please feel free to leave. I am sure there is some wilderness out there in which you can be the rugged individualist you think you are.

I did not say the Constitution did not apply. I said the opinions of the Founders didn't. You referenced the Federalist Papers as if they had any legal standing at all. They were Op Ed pieces - not law. Op Ed pieces written by a political class elite.

Actually, history proves you wrong. But you feel free to think otherwise. That ol' First Amendment is your friend.

 

[PratchettFan]

So you're argument is that the Constitution is unconstitutional.

Please don't be absurd.

Tell me where in the Constitution it states the fed gov has the right to tax and subsidize food, housing, health care, education, or any other personal benefit of the PEOPLE of the United States?

I'm not the one being absurd. Have you actually tried to read the Constitution? You should give it a try.

As to taxes, I refer you to Article 1 Section 8. As to the rest, the pre-amble establishes the intent of the Constitution is to provide for the general welfare, among other things. The congress is given authority to enact laws, also under Article 1 Section 8, to meet that requirement.

Now, if one feels the Congress or President (or a state for that matter) has gone too far, then I would refer you to Article III, Section 2, which defines how such disputes are resolved.

If you have something more substantial than "I don't like it" to present, then please do so. If not, then I would offer that Amendment I gives you the right to not like it and express that opinion at the top of your voice. I would also offer that if the Constitution wasn't working, as you suggest, then you would not have that right. The very fact you are publicly claiming the Constitution does not work is elegant evidence that it does. Thank you.

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

And the public education and health care is working so well run by the Government?
NO

I really find it very encouraging that I live in a society which works so well that people think any problem at all is a disaster. "It's not perfect????? We're all going to die!!!!! Aieeeeeeee." It creates a tad more drama than needed, but you have to be doing something right to have a citizenry this spoiled.

 

[gipper]

Please don't be absurd.

Tell me where in the Constitution it states the fed gov has the right to tax and subsidize food, housing, health care, education, or any other personal benefit of the PEOPLE of the United States?

I'm not the one being absurd. Have you actually tried to read the Constitution? You should give it a try.

As to taxes, I refer you to Article 1 Section 8. As to the rest, the pre-amble establishes the intent of the Constitution is to provide for the general welfare, among other things. The congress is given authority to enact laws, also under Article 1 Section 8, to meet that requirement.

Now, if one feels the Congress or President (or a state for that matter) has gone too far, then I would refer you to Article III, Section 2, which defines how such disputes are resolved.

If you have something more substantial than "I don't like it" to present, then please do so. If not, then I would offer that Amendment I gives you the right to not like it and express that opinion at the top of your voice. I would also offer that if the Constitution wasn't working, as you suggest, then you would not have that right. The very fact you are publicly claiming the Constitution does not work is elegant evidence that it does. Thank you.

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

Oh brother...you have to be kidding.

The government is US??? What a load of crap. The government is owned and controlled by powerful special interests. Not knowing this after all that has occurred, is proof you are uninformed.

And you really think the Constitution as written by the Founders, does not apply to a post-industrialized nation....REALLY??? So why are you defending it?

Was not the nation a pre-industrialized nation when it was written? So now that we are post-industrialized should it not work? What is it about the Constitution, when it was written, that does not work today? Please explain how the Bill of Rights is no longer applicable to our modern society.

Essentially our disagreement is you think government by elites, is workable. I do not and history proves me right.

Yes. The government is US. If you think that is not the case, if you think it is run by elites, unworkable and you are being put upon, then please feel free to leave. I am sure there is some wilderness out there in which you can be the rugged individualist you think you are.

I did not say the Constitution did not apply. I said the opinions of the Founders didn't. You referenced the Federalist Papers as if they had any legal standing at all. They were Op Ed pieces - not law. Op Ed pieces written by a political class elite.

Actually, history proves you wrong. But you feel free to think otherwise. That ol' First Amendment is your friend.

The absurdity continues...

Believing the government IS the American people, is beyond absurd and approaching psychotic.

The Federalist Papers explained the meaning of the Constitution and is regularly referred to as proof of the Founder's intentions. It was used to convince the sovereign states to ratify the Constitution. Too bad you don't know this.

At least you agree that government by elite, is what you prefer. Me...I prefer liberty.

 

[PratchettFan]

I'm not the one being absurd. Have you actually tried to read the Constitution? You should give it a try.

As to taxes, I refer you to Article 1 Section 8. As to the rest, the pre-amble establishes the intent of the Constitution is to provide for the general welfare, among other things. The congress is given authority to enact laws, also under Article 1 Section 8, to meet that requirement.

Now, if one feels the Congress or President (or a state for that matter) has gone too far, then I would refer you to Article III, Section 2, which defines how such disputes are resolved.

If you have something more substantial than "I don't like it" to present, then please do so. If not, then I would offer that Amendment I gives you the right to not like it and express that opinion at the top of your voice. I would also offer that if the Constitution wasn't working, as you suggest, then you would not have that right. The very fact you are publicly claiming the Constitution does not work is elegant evidence that it does. Thank you.

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

Oh brother...you have to be kidding.

The government is US??? What a load of crap. The government is owned and controlled by powerful special interests. Not knowing this after all that has occurred, is proof you are uninformed.

And you really think the Constitution as written by the Founders, does not apply to a post-industrialized nation....REALLY??? So why are you defending it?

Was not the nation a pre-industrialized nation when it was written? So now that we are post-industrialized should it not work? What is it about the Constitution, when it was written, that does not work today? Please explain how the Bill of Rights is no longer applicable to our modern society.

Essentially our disagreement is you think government by elites, is workable. I do not and history proves me right.

Yes. The government is US. If you think that is not the case, if you think it is run by elites, unworkable and you are being put upon, then please feel free to leave. I am sure there is some wilderness out there in which you can be the rugged individualist you think you are.

I did not say the Constitution did not apply. I said the opinions of the Founders didn't. You referenced the Federalist Papers as if they had any legal standing at all. They were Op Ed pieces - not law. Op Ed pieces written by a political class elite.

Actually, history proves you wrong. But you feel free to think otherwise. That ol' First Amendment is your friend.

The absurdity continues...

Believing the government IS the American people, is beyond absurd and approaching psychotic.

The Federalist Papers explained the meaning of the Constitution and is regularly referred to as proof of the Founder's intentions. It was used to convince the sovereign states to ratify the Constitution. Too bad you don't know this.

At least you agree that government by elite, is what you prefer. Me...I prefer liberty.

No, you don't prefer liberty. If you preferred liberty you would be living in hut somewhere without internet access, so you wouldn't be on-line here. You like talking about liberty and taking advantage of all of the amenities society provides.

 

[gipper]

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

Oh brother...you have to be kidding.

The government is US??? What a load of crap. The government is owned and controlled by powerful special interests. Not knowing this after all that has occurred, is proof you are uninformed.

And you really think the Constitution as written by the Founders, does not apply to a post-industrialized nation....REALLY??? So why are you defending it?

Was not the nation a pre-industrialized nation when it was written? So now that we are post-industrialized should it not work? What is it about the Constitution, when it was written, that does not work today? Please explain how the Bill of Rights is no longer applicable to our modern society.

Essentially our disagreement is you think government by elites, is workable. I do not and history proves me right.

Yes. The government is US. If you think that is not the case, if you think it is run by elites, unworkable and you are being put upon, then please feel free to leave. I am sure there is some wilderness out there in which you can be the rugged individualist you think you are.

I did not say the Constitution did not apply. I said the opinions of the Founders didn't. You referenced the Federalist Papers as if they had any legal standing at all. They were Op Ed pieces - not law. Op Ed pieces written by a political class elite.

Actually, history proves you wrong. But you feel free to think otherwise. That ol' First Amendment is your friend.

The absurdity continues...

Believing the government IS the American people, is beyond absurd and approaching psychotic.

The Federalist Papers explained the meaning of the Constitution and is regularly referred to as proof of the Founder's intentions. It was used to convince the sovereign states to ratify the Constitution. Too bad you don't know this.

At least you agree that government by elite, is what you prefer. Me...I prefer liberty.

No, you don't prefer liberty. If you preferred liberty you would be living in hut somewhere without internet access, so you wouldn't be on-line here. You like talking about liberty and taking advantage of all of the amenities society provides.

Yeah because if not for big unlimited government run by a small elite, we would all be serfs. You really are psychotic.

and most confused. Government is not society. They are two very different things.

 

[peach174]

Please don't be absurd.

Tell me where in the Constitution it states the fed gov has the right to tax and subsidize food, housing, health care, education, or any other personal benefit of the PEOPLE of the United States?

I'm not the one being absurd. Have you actually tried to read the Constitution? You should give it a try.

As to taxes, I refer you to Article 1 Section 8. As to the rest, the pre-amble establishes the intent of the Constitution is to provide for the general welfare, among other things. The congress is given authority to enact laws, also under Article 1 Section 8, to meet that requirement.

Now, if one feels the Congress or President (or a state for that matter) has gone too far, then I would refer you to Article III, Section 2, which defines how such disputes are resolved.

If you have something more substantial than "I don't like it" to present, then please do so. If not, then I would offer that Amendment I gives you the right to not like it and express that opinion at the top of your voice. I would also offer that if the Constitution wasn't working, as you suggest, then you would not have that right. The very fact you are publicly claiming the Constitution does not work is elegant evidence that it does. Thank you.

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

And the public education and health care is working so well run by the Government?
NO

I really find it very encouraging that I live in a society which works so well that people think any problem at all is a disaster. "It's not perfect????? We're all going to die!!!!! Aieeeeeeee." It creates a tad more drama than needed, but you have to be doing something right to have a citizenry this spoiled.

A disaster?
That's a bit melodramatic
I look at how we were number 3 in the world for our education before we got the Department of Education. Now we are 17th.
US 17th In Global Education Ranking Finland South Korea Claim Top Spots
Seems to me we did better without the government department.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The citizens deserve the government for which they vote.

Period. The government reflects the voters. If big money is controlling the voters, then the voters must vote in those people who will use government to restrain big money.

 

[PratchettFan]

I'm not the one being absurd. Have you actually tried to read the Constitution? You should give it a try.

As to taxes, I refer you to Article 1 Section 8. As to the rest, the pre-amble establishes the intent of the Constitution is to provide for the general welfare, among other things. The congress is given authority to enact laws, also under Article 1 Section 8, to meet that requirement.

Now, if one feels the Congress or President (or a state for that matter) has gone too far, then I would refer you to Article III, Section 2, which defines how such disputes are resolved.

If you have something more substantial than "I don't like it" to present, then please do so. If not, then I would offer that Amendment I gives you the right to not like it and express that opinion at the top of your voice. I would also offer that if the Constitution wasn't working, as you suggest, then you would not have that right. The very fact you are publicly claiming the Constitution does not work is elegant evidence that it does. Thank you.

You are being absurd.

The constitution was specifically written to limit the power of the central government. Do you believe it has?

You believe that the general welfare clause grants the central government the right to tax some Americans and give benefits to other Americans. If this is your position, it is clear you are not informed on the true meaning of the Constitution. I suggest you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, to become informed.

Taking ONE provision of the Constitution (First Amendment) and asserting that since the people can voice opinions means it is working, is utterly and completely ABSURD.

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

And the public education and health care is working so well run by the Government?
NO

I really find it very encouraging that I live in a society which works so well that people think any problem at all is a disaster. "It's not perfect????? We're all going to die!!!!! Aieeeeeeee." It creates a tad more drama than needed, but you have to be doing something right to have a citizenry this spoiled.

A disaster?
That's a bit melodramatic
I look at how we were number 3 in the world for our education before we got the Department of Education. Now we are 17th.
US 17th In Global Education Ranking Finland South Korea Claim Top Spots
Seems to me we did better without the government department.

Yes, I said it added a bit more drama than needed. Now, take a look at all of those systems which rank higher than us and tell me which one of them does not have government involvement in education.

 

[PratchettFan]

No. It wasn't. Nowhere does it say that is its purpose. It was written to create a central government and establish the powers and authority of each branch.

I have read many of the writings of the Founders. Now let me see if I can get this concept across to you. What the Founders did was establish a government. That being done, what other thoughts they might have had as to how their own pre-industrial, agrarian and slave-owning society was run are no longer relevant. The government no longer belongs to them. It belongs to us. Us being everyone, not just you. All 316 million of us.

I will tell you what is absurd. The notion that a first world nation with a post-industrialized society should not provide public education, not provide public health and not do what is necessary to keep people from living in shanty towns without power or water. That is absurd.

Oh brother...you have to be kidding.

The government is US??? What a load of crap. The government is owned and controlled by powerful special interests. Not knowing this after all that has occurred, is proof you are uninformed.

And you really think the Constitution as written by the Founders, does not apply to a post-industrialized nation....REALLY??? So why are you defending it?

Was not the nation a pre-industrialized nation when it was written? So now that we are post-industrialized should it not work? What is it about the Constitution, when it was written, that does not work today? Please explain how the Bill of Rights is no longer applicable to our modern society.

Essentially our disagreement is you think government by elites, is workable. I do not and history proves me right.

Yes. The government is US. If you think that is not the case, if you think it is run by elites, unworkable and you are being put upon, then please feel free to leave. I am sure there is some wilderness out there in which you can be the rugged individualist you think you are.

I did not say the Constitution did not apply. I said the opinions of the Founders didn't. You referenced the Federalist Papers as if they had any legal standing at all. They were Op Ed pieces - not law. Op Ed pieces written by a political class elite.

Actually, history proves you wrong. But you feel free to think otherwise. That ol' First Amendment is your friend.

The absurdity continues...

Believing the government IS the American people, is beyond absurd and approaching psychotic.

The Federalist Papers explained the meaning of the Constitution and is regularly referred to as proof of the Founder's intentions. It was used to convince the sovereign states to ratify the Constitution. Too bad you don't know this.

At least you agree that government by elite, is what you prefer. Me...I prefer liberty.

No, you don't prefer liberty. If you preferred liberty you would be living in hut somewhere without internet access, so you wouldn't be on-line here. You like talking about liberty and taking advantage of all of the amenities society provides.

Yeah because if not for big unlimited government run by a small elite, we would all be serfs. You really are psychotic.

and most confused. Government is not society. They are two very different things.

You live in a complete fantasy world. Luckily, you live in a society where you can do that without fear. Enjoy it. However, if you really want to give your fantasy a shot, I would suggest Somalia. I understand they have practically no central government at all. A true libertarian paradise.

 

[Darkwind]

This is one of those questions I've been struggling with for a while. It seems like the nation we are today is so far removed from the one the founding fathers envisioned that; I can only fault the document itself.
Am I the only one who would dare think they may have gotten it wrong?

No, many conservatives think the same thing, and they're just as wrong as you.

So for instance had the phrase "all men are created equal", effectively abolished slavery; would the civil war have been prevented? What was plainly worded wasn't even in actual practice at the time. Slavery was.

What of matters of peacefully leaving the Union? Also absent. Surely had you been there, knowing what you know now... you'd be tempted to add maybe a tweak?

"All me are created equal" is not in the Constitution. That is from the Declaration of Independence, which was a piece of propaganda - not law.

No. The Declaration of Independence is a Mission Statement. You are correct in that it is not law, however.

 

[Moonglow]

Seems to be working just fine thank you

This is one of those few times in life, that I'm truly shocked by a reply...
You can see no problem current, or past; that could've been remedied by a better drafting?

I see repeal of the 14th Amendment, which was passed at bayonet point during Reconstruction, as the solution to the main problems we face.

It has been interpreted to allow the feds to do almost anything they want.

The Great White Fathers had nothing to do with it.

They were closer to peach....in color.

 

[gipper]

Oh brother...you have to be kidding.

The government is US??? What a load of crap. The government is owned and controlled by powerful special interests. Not knowing this after all that has occurred, is proof you are uninformed.

And you really think the Constitution as written by the Founders, does not apply to a post-industrialized nation....REALLY??? So why are you defending it?

Was not the nation a pre-industrialized nation when it was written? So now that we are post-industrialized should it not work? What is it about the Constitution, when it was written, that does not work today? Please explain how the Bill of Rights is no longer applicable to our modern society.

Essentially our disagreement is you think government by elites, is workable. I do not and history proves me right.

Yes. The government is US. If you think that is not the case, if you think it is run by elites, unworkable and you are being put upon, then please feel free to leave. I am sure there is some wilderness out there in which you can be the rugged individualist you think you are.

I did not say the Constitution did not apply. I said the opinions of the Founders didn't. You referenced the Federalist Papers as if they had any legal standing at all. They were Op Ed pieces - not law. Op Ed pieces written by a political class elite.

Actually, history proves you wrong. But you feel free to think otherwise. That ol' First Amendment is your friend.

The absurdity continues...

Believing the government IS the American people, is beyond absurd and approaching psychotic.

The Federalist Papers explained the meaning of the Constitution and is regularly referred to as proof of the Founder's intentions. It was used to convince the sovereign states to ratify the Constitution. Too bad you don't know this.

At least you agree that government by elite, is what you prefer. Me...I prefer liberty.

No, you don't prefer liberty. If you preferred liberty you would be living in hut somewhere without internet access, so you wouldn't be on-line here. You like talking about liberty and taking advantage of all of the amenities society provides.

Yeah because if not for big unlimited government run by a small elite, we would all be serfs. You really are psychotic.

and most confused. Government is not society. They are two very different things.

You live in a complete fantasy world. Luckily, you live in a society where you can do that without fear. Enjoy it. However, if you really want to give your fantasy a shot, I would suggest Somalia. I understand they have practically no central government at all. A true libertarian paradise.

You will find no one more pro-American than me, but unlike you, I am in the true sense. Anyone who believes our big unlimited government is acceptable, as you do, is entirely ANTI-AMERICAN.

 

[PratchettFan]

Yes. The government is US. If you think that is not the case, if you think it is run by elites, unworkable and you are being put upon, then please feel free to leave. I am sure there is some wilderness out there in which you can be the rugged individualist you think you are.

I did not say the Constitution did not apply. I said the opinions of the Founders didn't. You referenced the Federalist Papers as if they had any legal standing at all. They were Op Ed pieces - not law. Op Ed pieces written by a political class elite.

Actually, history proves you wrong. But you feel free to think otherwise. That ol' First Amendment is your friend.

The absurdity continues...

Believing the government IS the American people, is beyond absurd and approaching psychotic.

The Federalist Papers explained the meaning of the Constitution and is regularly referred to as proof of the Founder's intentions. It was used to convince the sovereign states to ratify the Constitution. Too bad you don't know this.

At least you agree that government by elite, is what you prefer. Me...I prefer liberty.

No, you don't prefer liberty. If you preferred liberty you would be living in hut somewhere without internet access, so you wouldn't be on-line here. You like talking about liberty and taking advantage of all of the amenities society provides.

Yeah because if not for big unlimited government run by a small elite, we would all be serfs. You really are psychotic.

and most confused. Government is not society. They are two very different things.

You live in a complete fantasy world. Luckily, you live in a society where you can do that without fear. Enjoy it. However, if you really want to give your fantasy a shot, I would suggest Somalia. I understand they have practically no central government at all. A true libertarian paradise.

You will find no one more pro-American than me, but unlike you, I am in the true sense. Anyone who believes our big unlimited government is acceptable, as you do, is entirely ANTI-AMERICAN.

I repeat, you live in a complete fantasy world. This is a republic. A representative democracy. If that is not to your liking, by all means feel free to go be pro-somewhere else. No one is holding a gun to your head.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Gipper, you live in America, you live by the rules.

That's the way it is.