We do NOT Live in a Meritocracy

[Cecilie1200]

It hasn't changed, you are there to make other people money, if you can convince them you can do that you're in, it's been that way for thousands of years, it hasn't changed. That's exactly what I told people I haired when I owned my construction business, if they couldn't make me money, I had no use for them. I wasn't being mean, just stating a fact of life. You know why I closed my business and became an owner-operator in the trucking industry, because of whiny little shits like the op that wanted a pay check but didn't want to earn them.

That is what happens when education levels of the nation rise over 50 years.

It has changed a lot in terms of education alone. Even after you pay a lot of money to get an education your career may be significantly different and specialized. College grads can get paid $16 an hour while their company bills their services out at $100 an hour only to be replaced by someone in India.

You don't have to pay to get marketable skills, there are apprenticeship program that will pay you to learn, there are companies that will train motivated people, but people who are too sissified to get their hands dirty need not apply. There are jobs in the energy industry that pay as much as $20.00 per hour while you train and can lead to 6 figure pay in a few years. You can sit on your ass and come up with a million reasons why you can't do something, or you can get off your ass and do something. Your choice.

If these idiots spent half as much energy on getting their shit together as they do on thinking up excuses why they can't get their shit together, huh?

 

[ScienceRocks]

A merit based system is the only system that works. We can regulate but anything else is communism and simply doesn't work.

 

[Bombur]

It hasn't changed, you are there to make other people money, if you can convince them you can do that you're in, it's been that way for thousands of years, it hasn't changed. That's exactly what I told people I haired when I owned my construction business, if they couldn't make me money, I had no use for them. I wasn't being mean, just stating a fact of life. You know why I closed my business and became an owner-operator in the trucking industry, because of whiny little shits like the op that wanted a pay check but didn't want to earn them.

That is what happens when education levels of the nation rise over 50 years.

It has changed a lot in terms of education alone. Even after you pay a lot of money to get an education your career may be significantly different and specialized. College grads can get paid $16 an hour while their company bills their services out at $100 an hour only to be replaced by someone in India.

You don't have to pay to get marketable skills, there are apprenticeship program that will pay you to learn, there are companies that will train motivated people, but people who are too sissified to get their hands dirty need not apply. There are jobs in the energy industry that pay as much as $20.00 per hour while you train and can lead to 6 figure pay in a few years. You can sit on your ass and come up with a million reasons why you can't do something, or you can get off your ass and do something. Your choice.

Most well paid jobs require you to graduate college these days. Saying that there are some jobs that don't isn't that meaningful. No one is acting like there are zero jobs out there.

I have a career by the way. A career that affords me the opportunity to notice this trend that is happening in the US and understand the implications. To a certain extent the US may just get what it deserves.

 

[gnarlylove]

A merit based system is the only system that works. We can regulate but anything else is communism and simply doesn't work.

Many disagree that meritocracies are the best systems. Plus, we don't live in one, at best we live in a partial meritocracy which corrupts the whole point of meritocracy. But even if we lived in a fairly high function meritocracy, I question how well it would work given the fact that some humans will try and ruin it for everyone else.

This short lecture is a good reason to re-consider meritocracy as the only system. Alain de Botton: A kinder, gentler philosophy of success | Video on TED.com

 

[OKTexas]

That is what happens when education levels of the nation rise over 50 years.

It has changed a lot in terms of education alone. Even after you pay a lot of money to get an education your career may be significantly different and specialized. College grads can get paid $16 an hour while their company bills their services out at $100 an hour only to be replaced by someone in India.

You don't have to pay to get marketable skills, there are apprenticeship program that will pay you to learn, there are companies that will train motivated people, but people who are too sissified to get their hands dirty need not apply. There are jobs in the energy industry that pay as much as $20.00 per hour while you train and can lead to 6 figure pay in a few years. You can sit on your ass and come up with a million reasons why you can't do something, or you can get off your ass and do something. Your choice.

Most well paid jobs require you to graduate college these days. Saying that there are some jobs that don't isn't that meaningful. No one is acting like there are zero jobs out there.

I have a career by the way. A career that affords me the opportunity to notice this trend that is happening in the US and understand the implications. To a certain extent the US may just get what it deserves.

No, it's lazy people that make excuses that get what they deserve. There is opportunity out there, sometimes you have to go out of your way to find it.

 

[Bombur]

You don't have to pay to get marketable skills, there are apprenticeship program that will pay you to learn, there are companies that will train motivated people, but people who are too sissified to get their hands dirty need not apply. There are jobs in the energy industry that pay as much as $20.00 per hour while you train and can lead to 6 figure pay in a few years. You can sit on your ass and come up with a million reasons why you can't do something, or you can get off your ass and do something. Your choice.

Most well paid jobs require you to graduate college these days. Saying that there are some jobs that don't isn't that meaningful. No one is acting like there are zero jobs out there.

I have a career by the way. A career that affords me the opportunity to notice this trend that is happening in the US and understand the implications. To a certain extent the US may just get what it deserves.

No, it's lazy people that make excuses that get what they deserve. There is opportunity out there, sometimes you have to go out of your way to find it.

Yeah you really don't get what is being talked about. I am really hopeful that my generation is educated enough to overcome the stupid mistakes of yours.

Believe it or not we are on the same side. It is just hard for some people to understand that national trends don't boil down to personal decisions. Personal responsibility is great but all the personal responsibility in the world doesn't change the fact that wages have stagnated. Or that more education is needed today than 50 years ago. Or that the nature of people's careers have changed. Or any of the other changes that have happened in the last 50 years.

 

[OKTexas]

Most well paid jobs require you to graduate college these days. Saying that there are some jobs that don't isn't that meaningful. No one is acting like there are zero jobs out there.

I have a career by the way. A career that affords me the opportunity to notice this trend that is happening in the US and understand the implications. To a certain extent the US may just get what it deserves.

No, it's lazy people that make excuses that get what they deserve. There is opportunity out there, sometimes you have to go out of your way to find it.

Yeah you really don't get what is being talked about. I am really hopeful that my generation is educated enough to overcome the stupid mistakes of yours.

Believe it or not we are on the same side. It is just hard for some people to understand that national trends don't boil down to personal decisions. Personal responsibility is great but all the personal responsibility in the world doesn't change the fact that wages have stagnated. Or that more education is needed today than 50 years ago. Or that the nature of people's careers have changed. Or any of the other changes that have happened in the last 50 years.

No the jobs that keep your hands clean have changed but the rest that actually keep this country running haven't. Construction, equipment repair, building maintenance, electricians, plumbers, roofers, insulation, truck driving, electrical transmission, and many other jobs are available every where in this country and most of them will train an individual. There are other jobs that pay pretty well that require vocational training like auto mechanics, motorcycle mechanics, appliance repair, computer repair and the list goes on. I have 3 nephews, all have college degrees, only one works in his degree field, but they all are doing well with companies where they knew no one.

 

[gnarlylove]

No, it's lazy people that make excuses that get what they deserve. There is opportunity out there, sometimes you have to go out of your way to find it.

I know you are old but that doesn't mean you are wise. I respect your sincerity in committing to merit as the sole provider on this planet. But we don't live in a functioning meritocracy, where if one works hard they can achieve "success." You clearly have ignored my initial post on this thread detailing the reason this country does not function based on merit.

You keep rehashing propaganda that has been around as long as you have and longer. Everyone wants to believe hard work is the SOLE way to become successful. But if you think that, you are only considering yourself and ignoring the fact that most people in this country are struggling and working hard with little to nothing to show for it.

Indeed, our system is arranged to keep the poor down and the rich get richer as a result. If you think this is a society based on merit, you are lying to yourself. A select few succeed through hard work only, the rest either figuratively sucks cock or literally sucks cock.

Our system is designed to reward those with money and punish those without it by making their lives miserable. But since we inherit our parents circumstances, our freedom and success is based on them (if you are born a minority or born poor or born a woman).

Those born in poverty are encouraged through billions of dollars in advertising to borrow in an attempt to improve their life. They may have an immediate improvement in their welfare but what happens in the long run?

Compounded interest maintains their status as long-term customers. For every dollar spent on paying the principal, there are 3 dollars spent on fees and interest, according to Elizabeth Warren and the banks confirmed this (see "Maxed Out"). However, in the past debt forgiveness was a regular affair in governments (see the Bible or The Shadow Side of Debt). But today debt is essential to the system. Anyone in debt must either pay the principal and the interest (sometimes as high as 40%) in full or die (or file bankruptcy). So anyone in this predicament is much more likely, nay, obligated to take any low paying job in order to stop debt collection harassment and feel like they are valuable to society. Because people like you say those not working deserve to die/suffer. So they take any job that comes along and wouldn't complain about worker safety because it is their one chance at climbing out of miserable poverty. But what happens when workers accept whatever conditions?

This is known as wage slavery. In addition to debt, wage slavery is also essential mechanism of the system. It provides cheap and dispensable labor force , whether here or abroad.

Thus, we value debt and profit above human life by taking from the poor and redistributing their money to the Wall St. via compounded interest and the stock market. Those who trade money and buy/sell debt are those with the most lavish lifestyles. So clearly we value their "work" above those providing essential services to maintain society such as garbage men who wake at 3AM to pick up heavy, smelly barrels.

Those who manage their debt well are few and far between because the advertising is so ubiquitous that it induces cyclical consumption--yet another essential feature to our system. Without perpetual increasing demand the system falters and could collapse--so keep spending even if you're in debt! The fact that more money is spent on ads by corps. like Pepsi than the making of their actual products should clue you into how important advertising is to maintain our drone like consumption.

These three mechanisms, debt/compounded interest, wage slavery and cyclical consumption are essential and are also designed to keep the poor down and aide the rich.

This is not a meritocracy. This is not a society based on merit. It's based on who you know and where you are born. Just because you worked hard and carved out meager success doesn't mean the rest of society operates this way.

 

[Cecilie1200]

No, it's lazy people that make excuses that get what they deserve. There is opportunity out there, sometimes you have to go out of your way to find it.

Yeah you really don't get what is being talked about. I am really hopeful that my generation is educated enough to overcome the stupid mistakes of yours.

Believe it or not we are on the same side. It is just hard for some people to understand that national trends don't boil down to personal decisions. Personal responsibility is great but all the personal responsibility in the world doesn't change the fact that wages have stagnated. Or that more education is needed today than 50 years ago. Or that the nature of people's careers have changed. Or any of the other changes that have happened in the last 50 years.

No the jobs that keep your hands clean have changed but the rest that actually keep this country running haven't. Construction, equipment repair, building maintenance, electricians, plumbers, roofers, insulation, truck driving, electrical transmission, and many other jobs are available every where in this country and most of them will train an individual. There are other jobs that pay pretty well that require vocational training like auto mechanics, motorcycle mechanics, appliance repair, computer repair and the list goes on. I have 3 nephews, all have college degrees, only one works in his degree field, but they all are doing well with companies where they knew no one.

Well, it is a fact that as the world becomes more technologically advanced, people are not going to find it as easy to get by while being ignorant and uneducated. So what? Why would you WANT to? And when has this ever not been the case? I frankly see it as a good thing, in that rising technology gives all of us a better standard of living than our grandparents had, and it's not bad for it to motivate us as a people to be more educated. Now if we could figure out a way to motivate ourselves to be smarter and wiser as well, we'd be all set.

 

[OKTexas]

No, it's lazy people that make excuses that get what they deserve. There is opportunity out there, sometimes you have to go out of your way to find it.

I know you are old but that doesn't mean you are wise. I respect your sincerity in committing to merit as the sole provider on this planet. But we don't live in a functioning meritocracy, where if one works hard they can achieve "success." You clearly have ignored my initial post on this thread detailing the reason this country does not function based on merit.

You keep rehashing propaganda that has been around as long as you have and longer. Everyone wants to believe hard work is the SOLE way to become successful. But if you think that, you are only considering yourself and ignoring the fact that most people in this country are struggling and working hard with little to nothing to show for it.

Indeed, our system is arranged to keep the poor down and the rich get richer as a result. If you think this is a society based on merit, you are lying to yourself. A select few succeed through hard work only, the rest either figuratively sucks cock or literally sucks cock.

Our system is designed to reward those with money and punish those without it by making their lives miserable. But since we inherit our parents circumstances, our freedom and success is based on them (if you are born a minority or born poor or born a woman).

Those born in poverty are encouraged through billions of dollars in advertising to borrow in an attempt to improve their life. They may have an immediate improvement in their welfare but what happens in the long run?

Compounded interest maintains their status as long-term customers. For every dollar spent on paying the principal, there are 3 dollars spent on fees and interest, according to Elizabeth Warren and the banks confirmed this (see "Maxed Out"). However, in the past debt forgiveness was a regular affair in governments (see the Bible or The Shadow Side of Debt). But today debt is essential to the system. Anyone in debt must either pay the principal and the interest (sometimes as high as 40%) in full or die (or file bankruptcy). So anyone in this predicament is much more likely, nay, obligated to take any low paying job in order to stop debt collection harassment and feel like they are valuable to society. Because people like you say those not working deserve to die/suffer. So they take any job that comes along and wouldn't complain about worker safety because it is their one chance at climbing out of miserable poverty. But what happens when workers accept whatever conditions?

This is known as wage slavery. In addition to debt, wage slavery is also essential mechanism of the system. It provides cheap and dispensable labor force , whether here or abroad.

Thus, we value debt and profit above human life by taking from the poor and redistributing their money to the Wall St. via compounded interest and the stock market. Those who trade money and buy/sell debt are those with the most lavish lifestyles. So clearly we value their "work" above those providing essential services to maintain society such as garbage men who wake at 3AM to pick up heavy, smelly barrels.

Those who manage their debt well are few and far between because the advertising is so ubiquitous that it induces cyclical consumption--yet another essential feature to our system. Without perpetual increasing demand the system falters and could collapse--so keep spending even if you're in debt! The fact that more money is spent on ads by corps. like Pepsi than the making of their actual products should clue you into how important advertising is to maintain our drone like consumption.

These three mechanisms, debt/compounded interest, wage slavery and cyclical consumption are essential and are also designed to keep the poor down and aide the rich.

This is not a meritocracy. This is not a society based on merit. It's based on who you know and where you are born. Just because you worked hard and carved out meager success doesn't mean the rest of society operates this way.

Yep, you strike me to be the gullible type that would believe you can borrow your way to prosperity. If you are aware of a trap and you step in it anyways, what does that say about you? You just need to quit making excuses and go DO something. OH! and grow up.

 

[Bombur]

No, it's lazy people that make excuses that get what they deserve. There is opportunity out there, sometimes you have to go out of your way to find it.

Yeah you really don't get what is being talked about. I am really hopeful that my generation is educated enough to overcome the stupid mistakes of yours.

Believe it or not we are on the same side. It is just hard for some people to understand that national trends don't boil down to personal decisions. Personal responsibility is great but all the personal responsibility in the world doesn't change the fact that wages have stagnated. Or that more education is needed today than 50 years ago. Or that the nature of people's careers have changed. Or any of the other changes that have happened in the last 50 years.

No the jobs that keep your hands clean have changed but the rest that actually keep this country running haven't. Construction, equipment repair, building maintenance, electricians, plumbers, roofers, insulation, truck driving, electrical transmission, and many other jobs are available every where in this country and most of them will train an individual. There are other jobs that pay pretty well that require vocational training like auto mechanics, motorcycle mechanics, appliance repair, computer repair and the list goes on. I have 3 nephews, all have college degrees, only one works in his degree field, but they all are doing well with companies where they knew no one.

So you worked in construction and now your family has college degrees and only one in three have a career in their field.

Like I said, things have changed. There will always be jobs in construction but how construction jobs fit in with the rest of the economy changes. If things keep going the way they are the wages of those blue collar workers will not be able to support the massive productivity increases and the economy will stagnate.

 

[OKTexas]

Yeah you really don't get what is being talked about. I am really hopeful that my generation is educated enough to overcome the stupid mistakes of yours.

Believe it or not we are on the same side. It is just hard for some people to understand that national trends don't boil down to personal decisions. Personal responsibility is great but all the personal responsibility in the world doesn't change the fact that wages have stagnated. Or that more education is needed today than 50 years ago. Or that the nature of people's careers have changed. Or any of the other changes that have happened in the last 50 years.

No the jobs that keep your hands clean have changed but the rest that actually keep this country running haven't. Construction, equipment repair, building maintenance, electricians, plumbers, roofers, insulation, truck driving, electrical transmission, and many other jobs are available every where in this country and most of them will train an individual. There are other jobs that pay pretty well that require vocational training like auto mechanics, motorcycle mechanics, appliance repair, computer repair and the list goes on. I have 3 nephews, all have college degrees, only one works in his degree field, but they all are doing well with companies where they knew no one.

So you worked in construction and now your family has college degrees and only one in three have a career in their field.

Like I said, things have changed. There will always be jobs in construction but how construction jobs fit in with the rest of the economy changes. If things keep going the way they are the wages of those blue collar workers will not be able to support the massive productivity increases and the economy will stagnate.

Now you're just rambling, and a waste of time. I'm done.

 

[Bombur]

No the jobs that keep your hands clean have changed but the rest that actually keep this country running haven't. Construction, equipment repair, building maintenance, electricians, plumbers, roofers, insulation, truck driving, electrical transmission, and many other jobs are available every where in this country and most of them will train an individual. There are other jobs that pay pretty well that require vocational training like auto mechanics, motorcycle mechanics, appliance repair, computer repair and the list goes on. I have 3 nephews, all have college degrees, only one works in his degree field, but they all are doing well with companies where they knew no one.

So you worked in construction and now your family has college degrees and only one in three have a career in their field.

Like I said, things have changed. There will always be jobs in construction but how construction jobs fit in with the rest of the economy changes. If things keep going the way they are the wages of those blue collar workers will not be able to support the massive productivity increases and the economy will stagnate.

Now you're just rambling, and a waste of time. I'm done.

You just got done pointing out that your own relatives went to college and only one in three are working in their initial field. This is after you made an argument based on being paid to learn a trade.

If you don't want to talk about the nature of the economy then don't. If you want to talk about it and make claims about how it then I will call you out on what you say.

 

[gnarlylove]

Yep, you strike me to be the gullible type that would believe you can borrow your way to prosperity. If you are aware of a trap and you step in it anyways, what does that say about you? You just need to quit making excuses and go DO something. OH! and grow up.

This isn't about you or me. This is the fact that the system is rigged to produce a dispensable workforce to carry out the aspirations of profiteers. I've never once borrow money (except student loans) and vowed off credit cards at 14. You keep thinking in the narrow terms of those on this message board. What's really going on is outside the people participating in this message board. That society operates on principles of inheritance and who you know and then we are told we live in a society based on merit. The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing. Although hard work transports a few people to success, most successful people get that way because of where they were born and who they know. This flies in the face of our ideals of hard work and merit.

 

[OKTexas]

So you worked in construction and now your family has college degrees and only one in three have a career in their field.

Like I said, things have changed. There will always be jobs in construction but how construction jobs fit in with the rest of the economy changes. If things keep going the way they are the wages of those blue collar workers will not be able to support the massive productivity increases and the economy will stagnate.

Now you're just rambling, and a waste of time. I'm done.

You just got done pointing out that your own relatives went to college and only one in three are working in their initial field. This is after you made an argument based on being paid to learn a trade.

If you don't want to talk about the nature of the economy then don't. If you want to talk about it and make claims about how it then I will call you out on what you say.

You're not interested in talking about the economy or opportunities to succeed in this country, all you want to do is make excuses why Bill Gates has more money than your lazy ass. Like I said, I'm done.

 

[Bombur]

Now you're just rambling, and a waste of time. I'm done.

You just got done pointing out that your own relatives went to college and only one in three are working in their initial field. This is after you made an argument based on being paid to learn a trade.

If you don't want to talk about the nature of the economy then don't. If you want to talk about it and make claims about how it then I will call you out on what you say.

You're not interested in talking about the economy or opportunities to succeed in this country, all you want to do is make excuses why Bill Gates has more money than your lazy ass. Like I said, I'm done.

So when in doubt you make crap up and run away.

The nation improved a lot in the last 50 years but those gains don't come without a cost. Your world view is outdated and limited to only what you see.

One of the benefits of being educated is that it becomes easy to see through bad arguments like your own.

 

[The T]

You just got done pointing out that your own relatives went to college and only one in three are working in their initial field. This is after you made an argument based on being paid to learn a trade.

If you don't want to talk about the nature of the economy then don't. If you want to talk about it and make claims about how it then I will call you out on what you say.

You're not interested in talking about the economy or opportunities to succeed in this country, all you want to do is make excuses why Bill Gates has more money than your lazy ass. Like I said, I'm done.

So when in doubt you make crap up and run away.

The nation improved a lot in the last 50 years but those gains don't come without a cost. Your world view is outdated and limited to only what you see.

One of the benefits of being educated is that it becomes easy to see through bad arguments like your own.

Like the MANY you have fronted and been pummeled on> Project much Do you?

 

[gnarlylove]

One of the benefits of being educated is that it becomes easy to see through bad arguments like your own.

What education do you have if you don't mind me asking? I can also see through many bad arguments here and would not be able to if I lacked the levels of education I have (BA's in Philosophy and Sociology/Social Theory).

I said to myself when I graduated that had I not attended a university away from my home (and lived there) it would have taken 20 years if at all to attain the levels of understanding/personal advancement. IfI remained in the traditional rut of American life (i.e. never leave your county) I would have probably never come to understand the world for what it is.

 

[Katzndogz]

As long as employers are prevented from hiring the ones who have the most merit and must hire unqualified minorities, we really don't have a meritocracy. No matter how good you are, you will be passed over in favor of a less qualified minority. That has been the law since the Bakke decision when the very qualified Alan Bakke was denied admission to the University of California in favor of the very unqualified Patrick Chavis.

 

[Erand7899]

Most conservatives rely on the assumption that we live in a functioning meritocracy and we don't. But because they have their white/upper-middle class privileged blinders on, they continue spouting reforms that have little to do with them and harm their neighbors and the poor. It's fairly ruthless and entirely centered around money, not well being.

If we remove our heads from our asses by recognizing people are not and should not be profit-maximizing entities, we might actually get somewhere. We might actually orient ourselves towards a better society with more opportunities and education instead of money money money. Ah, this is all horse shit anyway, no powerful person gives a fuck nor can they change it on their own.

God, if I were a sissy piece of shit like you I think I'd just soot myself. Poor little victim, just can't make it out there in the big bad world all by your little ole self. Are you so fucking lazy you can't go out and get the skills to make yourself marketable? My working life spanned more than 50 years and I never got a job because of some one I knew. Quit whining, get off your ass a do what you need to get a freaking job.

50 years of work....

yeah things have changed a lil bit in those 50 years.

Like what has changed? Perhaps victimhood has had a broad upswing, but everything else is pretty much the same. Tens of thousands of good paying jobs go begging every day for the simple reason that applicants are not qualified to fill them. Companies don't fill these jobs with friends or relatives, they need people with real skills. What is stopping any of you from obtaining those skills?