CDZ What do American Muslims want?

[Coyote]

...

Not sure of the relevance here?

Me either, but you were very intent on using percentages, so I thought, let's at least use the right ones.

well then...70.6% identify as Christian.....Religious Landscape Study

You quoted 80% earlier, I went off those who said they attended. Note it is a declining number.

Agree, it's declining but it's still a vast majority compared to .8 don't you think?

 

[saveliberty]

I think I've figured out why conservatives are so anti-Muslim: Muslims in America: voters share views on the US presidential candidates

In 2008, 89% of US Muslims voted for Democrat Barack Obama, according to a poll by the Council on American-Islamic Relations. In a 2011 survey by the Pew Research Center, some 48% of Muslims living in America said they felt the Republican party was unfriendly towards them. Just 7% said the same of the Democratic party.

I am almost positive that blowing us up has a bigger impact on us than their voting booth preferences.

Do you suppose that voting is the reason that the countries in Europe have taken to the streets to stop the carnage to their countries? Are no groping signs at the kiddie pool the result of distaste for the Muslims choice of candidates? I am anti-Muslim because they slaughter children, behead people, tie them up and drop them into acid, fill pressure cookers with projectiles, fly planes into buildings, blow planes out of the sky, murder hundreds at sporting events, blow up trains, electrocute people, set them on fire, kidnap and sell children into slavery......
And no Christians are not doing the same thing worldwide, even though it is being done to them.

You are using an extremely rare event to broadbrush an entire American community.

You are 7 times more likely to be killed by a rightwing extremist than a muslim extremist.

You are more likely to be shot by a child than killed by a Muslim extremist and you are ten times more likely to be hit by lightening.

10 Reasons You Should Not Fear Muslims

According to the FBI, 94 percent of terrorist attacks carried out inside the United States from 1980 to 2005 have been by non-Muslims. Keyword: Non-Muslims. Looking overseas, less than 2 percent of terrorist attacks carried out in Europe in the past five years have been by Muslims.
​

You are many times more likely to be a victim of gun violence then Islamic extremism.


So where should our fears be rationally focused?

Again, you use percentages like that validates your position. Never mind the one that happened in 2001 killed almost 3,000. What of 2006 to the present? Makes a lot of what that articles says irrelevant today.

 

[Coyote]

Pillars article suggests young Muslims are disassociating from their faith. A lack of understanding its history, Koran and traditions were listed. In essence they are assimilating, unfortunately without staying Muslims. To me that indicates a culture that is intolerant.

I think it's indicative of the general trend in America towards religion with greater numbers of people not identifying with a particular faith. I think part of that is also as you say, rebellion against a strict and conservative religious culture. You see the same thing from people from strict Christian and Catholic backgrounds.

 

[saveliberty]

...

Not sure of the relevance here?

Me either, but you were very intent on using percentages, so I thought, let's at least use the right ones.

well then...70.6% identify as Christian.....Religious Landscape Study

You quoted 80% earlier, I went off those who said they attended. Note it is a declining number.

Agree, it's declining but it's still a vast majority compared to .8 don't you think?

What it does is make your comparison you attempted invalid.

 

[saveliberty]

I think it's indicative of the general trend in America towards religion with greater numbers of people not identifying with a particular faith. I think part of that is also as you say, rebellion against a strict and conservative religious culture. You see the same thing from people from strict Christian and Catholic backgrounds.

True.

 

[Coyote]

I think I've figured out why conservatives are so anti-Muslim: Muslims in America: voters share views on the US presidential candidates

In 2008, 89% of US Muslims voted for Democrat Barack Obama, according to a poll by the Council on American-Islamic Relations. In a 2011 survey by the Pew Research Center, some 48% of Muslims living in America said they felt the Republican party was unfriendly towards them. Just 7% said the same of the Democratic party.

I am almost positive that blowing us up has a bigger impact on us than their voting booth preferences.

Do you suppose that voting is the reason that the countries in Europe have taken to the streets to stop the carnage to their countries? Are no groping signs at the kiddie pool the result of distaste for the Muslims choice of candidates? I am anti-Muslim because they slaughter children, behead people, tie them up and drop them into acid, fill pressure cookers with projectiles, fly planes into buildings, blow planes out of the sky, murder hundreds at sporting events, blow up trains, electrocute people, set them on fire, kidnap and sell children into slavery......
And no Christians are not doing the same thing worldwide, even though it is being done to them.

You are using an extremely rare event to broadbrush an entire American community.

You are 7 times more likely to be killed by a rightwing extremist than a muslim extremist.

You are more likely to be shot by a child than killed by a Muslim extremist and you are ten times more likely to be hit by lightening.

10 Reasons You Should Not Fear Muslims

According to the FBI, 94 percent of terrorist attacks carried out inside the United States from 1980 to 2005 have been by non-Muslims. Keyword: Non-Muslims. Looking overseas, less than 2 percent of terrorist attacks carried out in Europe in the past five years have been by Muslims.
​

You are many times more likely to be a victim of gun violence then Islamic extremism.


So where should our fears be rationally focused?

Again, you use percentages like that validates your position. Never mind the one that happened in 2001 killed almost 3,000. What of 2006 to the present? Makes a lot of what that articles says irrelevant today.

Because it does. 9/11 was one event with a horrendous death toll.

One event.

It's not minimizing the impact of it to ask us to rationally focus our fears rather than act in ways that demonize an entire community who had nothing to do with it.

 

[Coyote]

...

Not sure of the relevance here?

Me either, but you were very intent on using percentages, so I thought, let's at least use the right ones.

well then...70.6% identify as Christian.....Religious Landscape Study

You quoted 80% earlier, I went off those who said they attended. Note it is a declining number.

Agree, it's declining but it's still a vast majority compared to .8 don't you think?

What it does is make your comparison you attempted invalid.

In what way does it invalidate it?

 

[Mudda]

Maybe the reason it's so easy for everyone to confuse terrorism with Islam is that Islam is a theocratic faith. So anytime Islamic terrorists who are attempting to lead others start engaging in warfare, we blame it on the religion instead of on the politics and the leaders. Do we blame the North Korean dictator's actions on his religion? No. His religion is not in a 'ruling' position in North Korea.
What I'm trying to say is, it is the leaders and the politics that are causing the terrorism, for the exact same reasons that every group and nation has started wars--wish for resources, power, etc. It is not Islam which drives terrorism, although is is being justified as a 'holy war' by their leaders . As has been pointed out here, if you dig into the Koran, you will find places that justify violence and abhorrent practices, but the Old Testament has plenty of those, as well, if you hunt for them.

You're wrong, it's not just the leader causing terrorism, as leaders never highjack the airplane, blow up their shoes or underwear, or attack Westerners, it's the regular Muslim Joe who does that.

You don't believe those Muslim Joes are acting as soldiers for their leaders who inspired them? I do.

You can't simply order someone to blow themselves up, they really, really have to want to.

Jonestown Guyana....

The OP carefully presented the facts, which are that American Muslims have different views than Muslims elsewhere. American Muslims are more similar to other Americans than different. The majority do not support principles embedded in Sharia law.
How do you continue to repeat the same hate filled propaganda with no consideration for the truth?

In that case there must be two different Qurans. One must have replaced the creed that peace is achieved by killing the infidels, with live and let live.
So where are these Muslims that want to be just like the great Satan? Why is there even a discussion of banning Sharia Law in America, since the majority don't support it, and where did you dream up this great divide between Muslims that want to remain true to their faith, and those reject it for apple pie and mom?

What does "being true to their faith" mean exactly? The Quran is full of passages that extol violence and full of passages that extol peace and tolerance. The Bible is is full of passages that extol violence and full of passages that extol peace and tolerance. Both are the religious books for a major world faith.

Given that, why is a different standard being applied to Muslims, the Quran, and Islam then is applied to Christians, the Bible, and Christianity or Jews, the OT and Judaism?

Is a Christian, that refuses to follow the biblical mandates calling for killing, stoning or exterminating unbelievers untrue to their faith?

Of course not.

What you are saying is American Muslims (only) can't possibly be true to their faith if they embrace a more peaceful understanding of it?

Muslims around the world including in the US are starting to lean more and more on the violent parts of Islam.

There is no evidence of that in the American Muslim community.

There is evidence, you just refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[Mudda]

She has no proof.

You made the claim, it is your responsibility to support it with proof. The "proof" you provided is clearly spurious.

I did, she simply dismissed it out of hand for some trivial reason.

I provided multiple sources indicating that your poll was poorly constructed. Perhaps you can find some evidence that the Pew poll I used as a source is similarly flawed?

I saw no pew poll.

 

[Coyote]

If any Muslim is working to replace our civilization with an Islamic one, they ARE part of a fifth column.

Since one of the most basic values of western liberalism involves the free exchange of ideas, that would extend to any who believe criticism of Islam should be forbidden.

All those display such an excessive deference to Islam to the point that they are working towards this same objective are most definitely part of the fifth column as well.

Are any American Muslims working to replace our civilization with an Islamic one? What evidence do you have? If a few outliers are, then does that broadbrush the entire Muslim American community? Is there any difference between that and Christian extremists trying to replace a secular culture with a religious one?

Do you understand the implications inherent in the use of the word "if".

I realize you feel compelled to trot out the word "broadbrush" whenever you automatically defend Islam, but the word implies that IF a Muslim wishes to replace our way of life with theirs (sharia law/elimination of the separation of religion and politics/assault in freedom of speech -- a notion obviously shared by some of their internet supporters) THEN they are part of a fifth column.
If/Then,

Learn it.

Can you answer the questions, while staying within CDZ guidelines?

 

[Coyote]

She has no proof.

You made the claim, it is your responsibility to support it with proof. The "proof" you provided is clearly spurious.

I did, she simply dismissed it out of hand for some trivial reason.

I provided multiple sources indicating that your poll was poorly constructed. Perhaps you can find some evidence that the Pew poll I used as a source is similarly flawed?

I saw no pew poll.

It was linked to in post #2 of this thread, and, in an earlier question from you I stated that.

 

[saveliberty]

In fairness, IF Muslims were attempting Sharia Law or terrorist support, it is very unlikely there would be overt evidence.

 

[pillars]

Pillars article suggests young Muslims are disassociating from their faith. A lack of understanding its history, Koran and traditions were listed. In essence they are assimilating, unfortunately without staying Muslims. To me that indicates a culture that is intolerant.

That's a reach. Ockham's razor would suggest that a simpler explanation is that westernization leads to decreased religiosity, and that's true for Christianity, as well.

 

[saveliberty]

Pillars article suggests young Muslims are disassociating from their faith. A lack of understanding its history, Koran and traditions were listed. In essence they are assimilating, unfortunately without staying Muslims. To me that indicates a culture that is intolerant.

How so? I disassociated with Christianity. Not because it was intolerant, but because it wasn't rational.

The person in YOUR article was not discussing rationality.

 

[pillars]

In fairness, IF Muslims were attempting Sharia Law or terrorist support, it is very unlikely there would be overt evidence.

If they were attempting Sharia law, there would be plenty of evidence, because laws are a public sort of thing.

 

[pillars]

Pillars article suggests young Muslims are disassociating from their faith. A lack of understanding its history, Koran and traditions were listed. In essence they are assimilating, unfortunately without staying Muslims. To me that indicates a culture that is intolerant.

How so? I disassociated with Christianity. Not because it was intolerant, but because it wasn't rational.

The person in YOUR article was not discussing rationality.

Revised. See revision.

 

[saveliberty]

In fairness, IF Muslims were attempting Sharia Law or terrorist support, it is very unlikely there would be overt evidence.

If they were attempting Sharia law, there would be plenty of evidence, because laws are a public sort of thing.

You can administer Sharia Law in private.

 

[saveliberty]

That's a reach. Ockham's razor would suggest that a simpler explanation is that westernization leads to decreased religiosity, and that's true for Christianity, as well.

Christian disassociation is a more recent phenomena. There is a higher correlation to the spread of liberal thought and attacks on religion.

 

[saveliberty]

Pillars and Coyote, I am glad you are both here and participating in the CDZ method. We just disagree on a lot of basic things.

I remember a conversation I had with the daughter of a US History professor who called Russians evil and out to get us. My reply was you think all Russians get up in the morning and plot all day to overthrow the US? I think they get up and worry about school, groceries and work schedules. Much like our US Muslim citizens.

So I will say US Muslims would like us to be more tolerant of them. Problem is we need their help in coming to that conclusion by more effort on their part to see them rejecting terrorism. To actively show it as the religion of peace.

Facing an internment camp due to race, religion or ethnic relationship should not even be a topic of conversation.

 

[Syriusly]

. A few will give the appearance and temperance of fitting in. A few million tell you where you fit in with their plan for peace and how it is to be achieved.

Yeah- no more than the same kind of crap bigots used to say about the Chinese and the Jews and Catholics and Italians.

Just more bigoted crap- just a different target group.

That's just more crap period. Show me the carnage of the the Italians, Jews, Catholics, and Chinese immigrants upon arriving here.....

Here is the difference. Those immigrants couldn't wait to become Americans, not bombers in America.

God- you do sound just like those bigots.

9/11 was not an act by Muslim immigrants- they were Muslim extremists and terrorists here on tourist and student visas.

Like you- bigots claimed that Italians and Jews and Catholics and Chinese were guilty of all sorts of crimes- because of the actions of a few Italians and Jews and Catholics and Chinese.

Luigi Galleani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One of the largest mass lynchings in American history was of eleven Italians in New Orleans, Louisiana, in 1891. The city had been the destination for numerous Italian immigrants.[12] Nineteen Italians who were thought to have assassinated police chief David Hennessy were arrested and held in the Parish Prison. Nine were tried, resulting in six acquittals and three mistrials. The next day, a mob stormed the prison and killed eleven men, none of whom had been convicted, and some of whom had not been tried.[13] Afterward, the police arrested hundreds of Italian immigrants, on the false pretext that they were all criminals.

Anti-Chinese propaganda poster