What human cost is acceptable in controling illegal immigration?

[Flopper]

How proud you must be supporting a policy that tears children from their parents arms WITHOUT regard. Stop pretending it has anything to do with stopping trafficking, you and I both know it doent and that is directky from the mouths of those who impmemented it as a deterrant. At least have the integrity to be honest about it.

------------------------- i don't care about the TRAFFICKING . I just want to scare the zhit out of the third worlders that they might have their kids taken from them if they violate American Law Coyote . --------------------- just a comment .

Scare them? You have to be joking. In Guatemala children 10 to 15 are routinely kidnapped, raped and murdered and the police don't even investigation. Teens are forcibly recruitment by street gangs and transnational drug cartels, after witnessed the murders of family members, friends and classmates. Exactly how do you plan to scare the shit out of them?

And the same thugs would think nothing of abducting a child and crossing our border with them.

Think about that

Immigration officials are required to interview all detainees regardless of age. Do you really think kidnap victims are not going to speak up?

These families came seeking asylum. You can not apply for asylum with out complete documentation of all family members.
Think about that.

Poor children from third world countries who are being abused and threatened and told the American will kill them? Of course they could lie. And you're saying keep them in the abuser's hands to keep doing that

I'm saying you don't presume that a family is human traffickers and victims without evidence any more than you would presume that a man carrying a briefcase walking out of a bank is a bank robber.

 

[koshergrl]

------------------------- i don't care about the TRAFFICKING . I just want to scare the zhit out of the third worlders that they might have their kids taken from them if they violate American Law Coyote . --------------------- just a comment .

Scare them? You have to be joking. In Guatemala children 10 to 15 are routinely kidnapped, raped and murdered and the police don't even investigation. Teens are forcibly recruitment by street gangs and transnational drug cartels, after witnessed the murders of family members, friends and classmates. Exactly how do you plan to scare the shit out of them?

And the same thugs would think nothing of abducting a child and crossing our border with them.

Think about that

Immigration officials are required to interview all detainees regardless of age. Do you really think kidnap victims are not going to speak up?

These families came seeking asylum. You can not apply for asylum with out complete documentation of all family members.
Think about that.

Poor children from third world countries who are being abused and threatened and told the American will kill them? Of course they could lie. And you're saying keep them in the abuser's hands to keep doing that

I'm saying you don't presume that a family is human traffickers and victims without evidence any more than you would presume that a man carrying a briefcase walking out of a bank is a bank robber.

When you stop a criminal at the border who has a kid that isn't his with him...you think that we should allow the kid to stay with that criminal in jail?

Because that's what you fools are advocating.

 

[Mike473]

QUOTE]In Guatemala, you do not sent your kids to a playground because there's a good chance you will never see them again. If your oldest son was run down in front of you by cartel members because he wouldn't work for them and a 7 year old across the street was raped and murdered by a local gang and the police refused to even investigate, I think you would do what is needed to get the fuck out. [/QUOTE]



Who can blame the families trying to escape from that kind of life?

The problem is not with those people trying to come to the United States, or Donald Trump for that matter. Why not focus on the countries and governments that are so bad that people risk their families lives to escape them?

 

[Pop23]

------------------------- i don't care about the TRAFFICKING . I just want to scare the zhit out of the third worlders that they might have their kids taken from them if they violate American Law Coyote . --------------------- just a comment .

Scare them? You have to be joking. In Guatemala children 10 to 15 are routinely kidnapped, raped and murdered and the police don't even investigation. Teens are forcibly recruitment by street gangs and transnational drug cartels, after witnessed the murders of family members, friends and classmates. Exactly how do you plan to scare the shit out of them?

And the same thugs would think nothing of abducting a child and crossing our border with them.

Think about that

Immigration officials are required to interview all detainees regardless of age. Do you really think kidnap victims are not going to speak up?

These families came seeking asylum. You can not apply for asylum with out complete documentation of all family members.
Think about that.

Poor children from third world countries who are being abused and threatened and told the American will kill them? Of course they could lie. And you're saying keep them in the abuser's hands to keep doing that

I'm saying you don't presume that a family is human traffickers and victims without evidence any more than you would presume that a man carrying a briefcase walking out of a bank is a bank robber.

You presume ANYONE WITHOUT DOCUMENTS ARE WITHOUT DOCUMENTS FOR A REASON.

 

[koshergrl]

Useful idiots. You know I love them.

I love them especially after their heroes eliminate them.

 

[koshergrl]

Another one who has absolutely no clue about the use of hyperbole to emphasize a point. I read my post, I replied to a specific point Cecilie was making. The point that the parents put their kids in risky, dangerous situations. At no point did I say that crossing the street was like illegal immigration. I stated that putting your kids in risky situation can be a justifiable action. Trying to make a strawman argument shows a lack of actual good arguments.

"So do I, every time I let my kid cross the street,I do it because crossing that street gets her to school, that school is how she gets a future. Does this mean I should lose my parental rights? In the end, sometimes as a parent you take certain risks in order to provide a better future for your kid."

Dude, you were very clear. If you're not comparing them, this has no point.

I crossed a street with my kid, but I did it for them
I left my kid in the car while shopping, but I did it for them to let them finish their nap
I dropped my kid off a cliff, but I did it for them to earn stunt money to pay for their schooling

Sometimes you take risks for your kids!

That sentence is entirely context driven. Running across the hot desert is nothing like crossing the street in front of your school and being willing to do the latter doesn't justify the former, no it doesn't

I don't know about anyone else, but the riskiest situations I put my kids in is sending them to a play group with other kids who MIGHT have germs. I most assuredly would not ever CONSIDER putting them anywhere near the evil filth in human form that is a coyote (someone who smuggles people across the border, for those of you who don't live in this area), or trekking across pretty much ANY country in Central America, or hiking through the Arizona desert (or Texas or New Mexico or California, for that matter).

In Guatemala, you do not sent your kids to a playground because there's a good chance you will never see them again. If your oldest son was run down in front of you by cartel members because he wouldn't work for them and a 7 year old across the street was raped and murdered by a local gang and the police refused to even investigate, I think you would do what is needed to get the fuck out.

Who can blame the families trying to escape from that kind of life?

The problem is not with those people trying to come to the United States, or Donald Trump for that matter. Why not focus on the countries and governments that are so bad that people risk their families lives to escape them?

You need to fix that quote, skippy. I didn't say that.

 

[TemplarKormac]

In terms of victims such as Steinle the only perspn who violatrd her rights was was the one who killed her. No one else.

You're being naive. With all due respect.

Do you reeeeeallly think that he is the only one of his kind to cross the border illegally?

What is "his kind"?

He is the only one who killed her. Not all other illegal immigrants. Him. No one else violate her rights did they?

Don't be dense.

There are many other illegal immigrants out there just like him. They were criminals in their own country, and they willingly continue that pattern here. That puts my right to reasonable safety at risk.

And thete are many legal citizens just like him out there even more likely to put your rights at risk. Which of your rights have ilkegal immigrants violated? None really. Individuals violate rights not broad groups

Here's the thing, there's a broad group of illegal immigrants out there who are the scum of the earth. They belong to gangs, they murder people, they rape women, sell drugs, traffic children... not all of them are "law abiding" for lack of a better phrase. When they are in our midst, the danger to our rights is real.

Heh, I'd rather not be complacent.

 

[Coyote]

I'm more interested in helping those kids.

(smiles)

No, you're not. You're only interested in using them as political tools.

How so? I wasn't even referring to unaccompanied minors until you brought them up and I still think you are conflating those kids with the separation of families.

No, you are ignoring unaccompanied minors for the sake of the families. For them, the separation has already occurred. But not one ounce of outrage from you.

No, you don't care, and I will continue to contend as much.

I think this a deflection because it really is a different issue. Unaccompanied minors are treated differently because the authories have to try to locate relatives or find a gusrdian. I am not clear on what outrage you are demanding on their behalf. As far as seperation, there is a difference between voluntary and forced.

 

[Billo_Really]

If the Democrats just showed up at the polls, they would win. Independents do not favor the draconian measures that we are using on kids at the borders though they probably do abhor illegal immigration. Independents do not favor the tactics we’re taking with our allies in terms of trade. They sure do not favor the behavior of the president; the sleaze, the legal issues, the idea that he could self-pardon….

If the Dems show up at the polls, they win in the general election.

And Democrats don't favor progressives. Big mistake. The Dems need to go full liberal if they have any hopes of getting back some seats. Not only that, they need a platform people can buy in to. Right now, they have none.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I'll take in all of those kids if you take in all those unborn, unwanted fetuses, OK, buddy?

I would, if you wouldn't abort them all, you blithering idiot.

Stay gold, Pony Boy, stay gold.

You know, I don't respond well to sarcasm. And your insults show just how degenerative your argument is.

Now your feelings are hurt because I called you Pony Boy? I'm going to call you a snowflake now.

That's ICE GIANT to you.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

You should never have been allowed to reproduce, simply because you're pig-stupid enough to compare crossing the street (presumably at an intersection, but given your shocking level of brain damage, I won't assume anything) with entering the country illegally.

Your post is invalid, your presumption of functional intelligence is invalid, your existence is invalid. Maybe you should send your kid in to debate on your behalf.

I wasn't comparing crossing the street with illegal immigration. I was comparing putting kids in risky situations, to establish that doing so can be in the child's best interest in certain circumstances. I used hyperbole to make a point. The fact that you aren't capable of recognizing it for what it was and the fact that it prompted you to do an ad hominem attack, tells me everything I need to know about your debating skills.

Of course you were comparing crossing the street with illegal immigration. Read your post, dumb ass

Another one who has absolutely no clue about the use of hyperbole to emphasize a point. I read my post, I replied to a specific point Cecilie was making. The point that the parents put their kids in risky, dangerous situations. At no point did I say that crossing the street was like illegal immigration. I stated that putting your kids in risky situation can be a justifiable action. Trying to make a strawman argument shows a lack of actual good arguments.

"So do I, every time I let my kid cross the street,I do it because crossing that street gets her to school, that school is how she gets a future. Does this mean I should lose my parental rights? In the end, sometimes as a parent you take certain risks in order to provide a better future for your kid."

Dude, you were very clear. If you're not comparing them, this has no point.

I crossed a street with my kid, but I did it for them
I left my kid in the car while shopping, but I did it for them to let them finish their nap
I dropped my kid off a cliff, but I did it for them to earn stunt money to pay for their schooling

Sometimes you take risks for your kids!

That sentence is entirely context driven. Running across the hot desert is nothing like crossing the street in front of your school and being willing to do the latter doesn't justify the former, no it doesn't

I don't know about anyone else, but the riskiest situations I put my kids in is sending them to a play group with other kids who MIGHT have germs. I most assuredly would not ever CONSIDER putting them anywhere near the evil filth in human form that is a coyote (someone who smuggles people across the border, for those of you who don't live in this area), or trekking across pretty much ANY country in Central America, or hiking through the Arizona desert (or Texas or New Mexico or California, for that matter).

Because your and your childrens' lives and safety aren't constantly in jeopardy. Why do you begrudge others for their problems? You can't judge them by the standard of your experience.

 

[HappyJoy]

I'm more interested in helping those kids.

(smiles)

No, you're not. You're only interested in using them as political tools.

How so? I wasn't even referring to unaccompanied minors until you brought them up and I still think you are conflating those kids with the separation of families.

No, you are ignoring unaccompanied minors for the sake of the families. For them, the separation has already occurred. But not one ounce of outrage from you.

What the hell are you talking about? For unaccompanied minors we should do what we can to help them. Whether that means they immigrate through our system as asylum seekers if that's appropriate or maybe even help them resettle in another country, say Mexico but something like that would require a productive relationship with them and we don't really have that right now.

Or are you somehow referring to the families that arrive here and then are separated? I'm still not quite sure what you are talking about and I don't think you know either.

No, you don't care, and I will continue to contend as much.

Neat, that's the least important thing. Right now it's what do we do to/for these families that arrive intact and if you want to include the unaccompanied children we could talk about them to. My understanding is you don't want government to do anything, but you do want to blame me because I'm the one who doesn't care about them?

Do I have that right because your argument is either ironic or hypocritical, possibly both.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I think this a deflection because it really is a different issue.

No. It's not. You're too concerned about families being ripped apart by our government to notice the families that ripped themselves apart in order to send an innocent child across our border.

 

[HappyJoy]

I'll take in all of those kids if you take in all those unborn, unwanted fetuses, OK, buddy?

I would, if you wouldn't abort them all, you blithering idiot.

Stay gold, Pony Boy, stay gold.

You know, I don't respond well to sarcasm. And your insults show just how degenerative your argument is.

Now your feelings are hurt because I called you Pony Boy? I'm going to call you a snowflake now.

That's ICE GIANT to you.

Oh, shit...I mean sh*t, I didn't realize I was arguing with a 12 year old. Sorry, little guy I had no idea.

 

[TemplarKormac]

But I've had enough. This entire issue is wrought with emotion. And I, too am being drawn into it.

I don't want families to be separated, but I don't want the law to be disobeyed. This is all I should have said from the beginning.

I'll be going now. I harbor no ill will toward anyone.

 

[Coyote]

In terms of victims such as Steinle the only perspn who violatrd her rights was was the one who killed her. No one else.

You're being naive. With all due respect.

Do you reeeeeallly think that he is the only one of his kind to cross the border illegally?

What is "his kind"?

He is the only one who killed her. Not all other illegal immigrants. Him. No one else violate her rights did they?

Don't be dense.

There are many other illegal immigrants out there just like him. They were criminals in their own country, and they willingly continue that pattern here. That puts my right to reasonable safety at risk.

And thete are many legal citizens just like him out there even more likely to put your rights at risk. Which of your rights have ilkegal immigrants violated? None really. Individuals violate rights not broad groups

Here's the thing, there's a broad group of illegal immigrants out there who are the scum of the earth. They belong to gangs, they murder people, they rape women, sell drugs, traffic children... not all of them are "law abiding" for lack of a better phrase. When they are in our midst, the danger to our rights is real.

Heh, I'd rather not be complacent.

Msybe it would be better framed as a broad group of people...because nany of those people arent even illegal immigrants. MS13 was born in the US. The vast majority of violent are commited by our home boys.

If we start going after entire groups because some individuals have violated our rights where does that leave anyone's rights?

It is like saying that illegal immigrants are horrible parents for bringing their children when the question ought to be: what situation could be so terrible that a parent would risk their children to flee?

 

[Coyote]

But I've had enough. This entire issue is wrought with emotion. And I, too am being drawn into it.

I don't want families to be separated, but I don't want the law to be disobeyed. This is all I should have said from the beginning.

I'll be going now. I harbor no ill will toward anyone.

It is a highly charged topic for us all

 

[Hutch Starskey]

"Using hyperbole to make a point" is another way of saying "Saying something utterly ridiculous, because I have nothing real".

Next time, try debating like an intelligent adult, instead of a hyperventilating adolescent hormone bomb. Always assuming you have that capability.

FYI, if you really think parenting involves putting your children in risky situations comparable to traveling across third-world countries in the company of human smugglers in order to break illegally into a country which will put you in jail for doing so if they catch you, then I stand by my earlier statement that you should never have been allowed to breed.

How much risks do you think people on the Mayflower took to get to the US, they weren't all singles you know? And the risks were far greater? Did that make them unfit parents? Escaping crushing poverty, violence, or outright famine in some cases doesn't make you unfit. In fact it seems to me as a thoroughly responsible thing to do if the need is great enough. I find it outright alarming that for some Americans being for Trump means you don't question even something like this. I don't care if you call it "Common sense", "deserved" ,"criminal", "a matter of national security", " the Democrats fault" or any other justification. The fact remains that the US government is now at a point that they separate parents from their children for no better reason that they feel it would "deter" others. An act that even the First Lady, nor any other former First Lady supports. Today the US stepped out of the Human rights council. That's the state of the country. Human Rights are no longer something that the US is willing to promote and looking at this story even adhere to.

You're comparing criminals sneaking into our country to the Pilgrims? Seriously?

I hope you won't be too surprised that I'm not even going to bother reading this puddle of rancid piss.

It's a valid comparison if you say these refugees are bad parents for taking their kids on a dangerous trip. No wonder you won't answer it, coward.

And now I've gone from ignoring a puddle of rancid piss to ignoring a puddle of festering vomit.

You're ignoring a valid point in an argument is what you're doing.

Her specialty.

 

[TemplarKormac]

If we start going after entire groups because some individuals have violated our rights where does that leave anyone's rights?

Curious, illegal immigrants don't police themselves, do they? That's why you must treat them all the same. It's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of trust.

 

[Pop23]

I'm more interested in helping those kids.

(smiles)

No, you're not. You're only interested in using them as political tools.

How so? I wasn't even referring to unaccompanied minors until you brought them up and I still think you are conflating those kids with the separation of families.

No, you are ignoring unaccompanied minors for the sake of the families. For them, the separation has already occurred. But not one ounce of outrage from you.

What the hell are you talking about? For unaccompanied minors we should do what we can to help them. Whether that means they immigrate through our system as asylum seekers if that's appropriate or maybe even help them resettle in another country, say Mexico but something like that would require a productive relationship with them and we don't really have that right now.

Or are you somehow referring to the families that arrive here and then are separated? I'm still not quite sure what you are talking about and I don't think you know either.

No, you don't care, and I will continue to contend as much.

Neat, that's the least important thing. Right now it's what do we do to/for these families that arrive intact and if you want to include the unaccompanied children we could talk about them to. My understanding is you don't want government to do anything, but you do want to blame me because I'm the one who doesn't care about them?

Do I have that right because your argument is either ironic or hypocritical, possibly both.

How about this?








RETURN THEM TO THEIR FAMILIES THAT THEY RAN AWAY FROM?