What human cost is acceptable in controling illegal immigration?

[Hutch Starskey]

No, you do not surrender rights by a committing crime. The accused certainly has constitutional rights, even non-citizens.

You're missing the point entirely. It makes zero sense to say that any illegal who sets foot on American soil gains constitutional rights when they do.

I believe in reciprocal punishment. If you violate the rights of others by committing a crime, you should lose yours. You have forfeited them because you had no respect for the rights of others. Due process is guaranteed, but the rest of your rights go bye bye.

They do have some Constitutional rights.

Do undocumented immigrants have constitutional rights?

I never said they didn't. I said they shouldn't.

why shouldnt they? Everyone in this country citizen or not has some Constitutional protections, esp due process. It is whst seperates us from barberic rwgimes that can throw you in jsil for fictitous chsrges.

Yeah, but by allowing everyone to cross our border willy nilly like you apparently want them to do, we become inseparate from those barbaric regimes, by allowing that barbarity to permeate our society. Because not every person who crosses our border illegally is an angel.

We're talking about people who were apprehended and how they're being treated.
That's not crossing willy nilly.

 

[Coyote]

If we start going after entire groups because some individuals have violated our rights where does that leave anyone's rights?

Curious, illegal immigrants don't police themselves, do they? That's why you must treat them all the same. It's not a matter of perception, it's a matter of trust.

I dont see how you can make that sort of broad generalization. They arent even a homogenious cultural group. They arw simply a group of people from all around the world who have only one thing in common: immigration ststus.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

The parents aren't doing it. The govt is.

No.

Do you think these children suddenly developed a sudden societal and environmental awareness and decided to come here on their own? No. The parents chose to send them here, alone. Adults claiming to be parents smuggled them here, only to leave them alone when they were detained for crossing illegally. You are so damned ignorant that you can't see these people are taking advantage of our system. That system must be changed. With or without your help.

The govt, through policy, is deciding to prosecute 100% them. Including those seeking asylum.The result of said prosecution is separation. This was not the case six weeks ago.

Perhaps you weren't listening to Cecilie, go read her posts again.

I wasn't listening at all, dope. I read it.


Cecile is dishonestly suggesting that every child is smuggled into the country rather than arriving with their parents. I chose not to address that but rather stick to the point.

No, shitstain. This just demonstrates how very little you actually know about the border and illegal immigration, you armchair Einstein.

I never once said all children smuggled into the country arrive without their parents. NO ONE has ever said that. The fact that you assume it's a binary either/or choice is evidence that you're pontificating on a subject you know less about than I do about quantum physics.

Let me guess, ass napkin. You didn't realize that coyotes ALSO smuggle adults and family groups across the border, as well as unaccompanied children?

I never once said all children smuggled into the country arrive without their parents. NO ONE has ever said that.

Open the quote boxes in this post, dope.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Causing mental and emotional harm to children over prolonged periods of time is certainly child abuse. Especially when done when discrestion allows for altenatives.

Then perhaps their parents shouldn't do it.

And we all know about your "discretion allows for alternatives", otherwise known as "just stop enforcing the border!"

Then perhaps their parents shouldn't do it.

And we all know about your "discretion allows for alternatives", otherwise known as "just stop enforcing the border!"

The parents aren't doing it. The govt is.

Discretion as in prosecutorial discretion, dope.

All of the people will be dealt with. Those who don't qualify or apply for asylum are deported immediately. Those who qualify are processed. Those granted asylum can stay and those denied are immediately deported.

Where is there "no enforcement" in that?

Oh, the government is going to their countries, dragging them up here, and shoving them across the border illegally? Is that what's happening?

"Prosecutorial discretion" = "do we prosecute or not?" DOPE.

"No enforcement" would be in the "You CAN'T put kids in foster care while their parents are locked up!" which leads to "You MUST release the parents with the children so they can be together", which is the same as not bothering to enforce the borders at all.

It's not that I don't think you're plenty stupid enough to really believe the garbage you're shoveling; it's just that I don't happen to think that's what's at play here.

What did they do seven weeks ago and for the last year, dope? They didn't prosecute those applying for asylum who crossed illegally and therefore did not have to separate them. It is done now by choice. By policy. By prosecutorial discretion, dope.

You are again attempting to dishonestly suggest that there is no enforcement without
this zero tolerance policy. The truth is, all of these people who were apprehended will be processed. That would be true even if there were no new policy.

Catch and release (term) - Wikipedia

Next time, look it up your own lazy self. DOPE.

If it's so "dishonest" to suggest there's no enforcement without the zero tolerance policy, then why don't YOU tell me what they did seven weeks ago that was so much better?

I know what that is, dope. I didn't ask for it. Nice dodge.

People were apprehended and processed seven weeks ago. The entire first year of the Trump admin as well.

The better question is, what makes this policy not so much better but so much more effective?

 

[Hutch Starskey]

------------------------- i don't care about the TRAFFICKING . I just want to scare the zhit out of the third worlders that they might have their kids taken from them if they violate American Law Coyote . --------------------- just a comment .

Scare them? You have to be joking. In Guatemala children 10 to 15 are routinely kidnapped, raped and murdered and the police don't even investigation. Teens are forcibly recruitment by street gangs and transnational drug cartels, after witnessed the murders of family members, friends and classmates. Exactly how do you plan to scare the shit out of them?

And the same thugs would think nothing of abducting a child and crossing our border with them.

Think about that

Child traffickers and victims posing as families are easily identified by law enforcement when apprehended. Victims almost universally show relief when questioned by law enforcement. The most common methods of transporting victims is as cargo in trucks and boats, not walking across the desert.

Yes and our very savvy and well experienced professionals are no doubt very adept at sorting through these claims.

Most teen girls are deceived as to why they are being smuggled. Told they were going to get good jobs. They don’t know different until it’s too late and do not turn their smugglers in, they believe them.

You are simply Naive.

Yes, that's it. All govt employees are incompetent and in no way gain experience when processing thousands of cases anually.

But I'm naive.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Mlll.

You're missing the point entirely. It makes zero sense to say that any illegal who sets foot on American soil gains constitutional rights when they do.

I believe in reciprocal punishment. If you violate the rights of others by committing a crime, you should lose yours. You have forfeited them because you had no respect for the rights of others. Due process is guaranteed, but the rest of your rights go bye bye.

Who's rights were violated?

Seriously?

The people who are going through this process legally. People who come here legally and are born here legally to legal parents. The people who lost their lives because we chose to have compassion on the lawbreaker instead of the victim (think Kate Steinle).

I could go on if you want. This is why I don't have any compassion right now. Nobody seems to want the consequences to be applied. Nobody.

Instead of offering a solution, Democrats choose to wear their feelings on their sleeve.

What rights are they violating?

It isnt the Dems responsibility to clean up Trump's mess.

In terms of victims such as Steinle the only perspn who violatrd her rights was was the one who killed her. No one else.

It isn't the Dems' responsibility? Excuse me, who makes the laws in this country? That'd be Congress, right? Some members of which are Dems? So wouldn't that mean that making laws to correct a situation they don't like IS their responsibility? Otherwise, what the fuck are we paying them for? I myself don't consider "viewing with alarm" and grandstanding in front of the cameras to be a valuable public service I'm willing to pay my tax money for.

At what point do you go from, "This is wrong! This is horrible! Quick, everyone hate Trump!" to calling for something that is actually productive and meaningful to solving the alleged problem, such as . . . just off the top of my head here . . . a law that changes it?! 'Cause I'm still waiting for you to call for a solution that addresses the situation.

Most of your blather is just that. Blather.

When did this policy come into effect?
Who formulated it?
Who implemented it?

Why don't you Trumpets FOR ONCE grow up and tske responsibility for your crappy policies instead of blaming every one but....yourselves.

Hate to break it to you, but sneering at someone as a "Trumpette" does not constitute a valid defense. I have never liked or supported Trump, but if I had, I certainly wouldn't be embarrassed and shamed because trash like you thought I shouldn't have.

As for your interrogation, when you answer my questions, I'll answer yours. Until then, I will assume you're trying to change the subject because you can't answer mine.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How about the unnecessary separation of children from their parents?

Unnecessary? Why is it unnecessary?"

If someone perpetrates a burglary while accompanied by his/her two year-old. If you are a cop, or a sentencing judge, what do you do?

These people didn't perpetrate a burglary, they sought asylum. At worst they committed a misdemeanor.

You heard it from the trumpanzees...they now have the expectation that the children of burglars will be put in cages.

Yeah, I don't think they realize what they are asking for. I guess according to Mike that 2 year old gets locked up too, just have to make sure it's not with their parents. Seems extraordinarily cruel but I guess this is Trump's America.

Let me get this straight. BEFORE, you were bitching about kids being released from detention without their parents, and how they should remain locked up in order to be with their parents (despite the fact that it was LEFTISTS who insisted on the policy of releasing them). NOW you're pissing and moaning about them being "locked up".

Could you possibly locate whatever passes for your mind and make it up?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You're being naive. With all due respect.

Do you reeeeeallly think that he is the only one of his kind to cross the border illegally?

What is "his kind"?

He is the only one who killed her. Not all other illegal immigrants. Him. No one else violate her rights did they?

Don't be dense.

There are many other illegal immigrants out there just like him. They were criminals in their own country, and they willingly continue that pattern here. That puts my right to reasonable safety at risk.

And thete are many legal citizens just like him out there even more likely to put your rights at risk. Which of your rights have ilkegal immigrants violated? None really. Individuals violate rights not broad groups

Here's the thing, there's a broad group of illegal immigrants out there who are the scum of the earth. They belong to gangs, they murder people, they rape women, sell drugs, traffic children... not all of them are "law abiding" for lack of a better phrase. When they are in our midst, the danger to our rights is real.

Heh, I'd rather not be complacent.

Msybe it would be better framed as a broad group of people...because nany of those people arent even illegal immigrants. MS13 was born in the US. The vast majority of violent are commited by our home boys.

If we start going after entire groups because some individuals have violated our rights where does that leave anyone's rights?

It is like saying that illegal immigrants are horrible parents for bringing their children when the question ought to be: what situation could be so terrible that a parent would risk their children to flee?

I think the better question is if they live in such a horrible place, why did they have children in the first place? If it's because they are just plain dumb, then what we have is a breeding ground where the families will just relocate to the US when they finally decide their country is not good enough for their children.

 

[koshergrl]

I would, if you wouldn't abort them all, you blithering idiot.

Stay gold, Pony Boy, stay gold.

You know, I don't respond well to sarcasm. And your insults show just how degenerative your argument is.

Now your feelings are hurt because I called you Pony Boy? I'm going to call you a snowflake now.

That's ICE GIANT to you.

Oh, shit...I mean sh*t, I didn't realize I was arguing with a 12 year old. Sorry, little guy I had no idea.

Only in your dreams, HJ.

 

[koshergrl]

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

If the Democrats just showed up at the polls, they would win. Independents do not favor the draconian measures that we are using on kids at the borders though they probably do abhor illegal immigration. Independents do not favor the tactics we’re taking with our allies in terms of trade. They sure do not favor the behavior of the president; the sleaze, the legal issues, the idea that he could self-pardon….

If the Dems show up at the polls, they win in the general election.

And Democrats don't favor progressives. Big mistake. The Dems need to go full liberal if they have any hopes of getting back some seats. Not only that, they need a platform people can buy in to. Right now, they have none.

For once you and I agree: let the Democrat party go full liberal, even socialist or Communist. That will teach us Republicans.

 

[Slyhunter]

 

[Billo_Really]

For once you and I agree: let the Democrat party go full liberal, even socialist or Communist. That will teach us Republicans.

I don't think Republicans have the ability to learn.

 

[HappyJoy]

I'm more interested in helping those kids.

(smiles)

No, you're not. You're only interested in using them as political tools.

How so? I wasn't even referring to unaccompanied minors until you brought them up and I still think you are conflating those kids with the separation of families.

No, you are ignoring unaccompanied minors for the sake of the families. For them, the separation has already occurred. But not one ounce of outrage from you.

What the hell are you talking about? For unaccompanied minors we should do what we can to help them. Whether that means they immigrate through our system as asylum seekers if that's appropriate or maybe even help them resettle in another country, say Mexico but something like that would require a productive relationship with them and we don't really have that right now.

Or are you somehow referring to the families that arrive here and then are separated? I'm still not quite sure what you are talking about and I don't think you know either.

No, you don't care, and I will continue to contend as much.

Neat, that's the least important thing. Right now it's what do we do to/for these families that arrive intact and if you want to include the unaccompanied children we could talk about them to. My understanding is you don't want government to do anything, but you do want to blame me because I'm the one who doesn't care about them?

Do I have that right because your argument is either ironic or hypocritical, possibly both.

How about this?








RETURN THEM TO THEIR FAMILIES THAT THEY RAN AWAY FROM?

That could be one solution, not necessarily for all, especially if we know their country of origin is in crisis.

 

[HappyJoy]

How about the unnecessary separation of children from their parents?

Unnecessary? Why is it unnecessary?"

If someone perpetrates a burglary while accompanied by his/her two year-old. If you are a cop, or a sentencing judge, what do you do?

These people didn't perpetrate a burglary, they sought asylum. At worst they committed a misdemeanor.

You heard it from the trumpanzees...they now have the expectation that the children of burglars will be put in cages.

Yeah, I don't think they realize what they are asking for. I guess according to Mike that 2 year old gets locked up too, just have to make sure it's not with their parents. Seems extraordinarily cruel but I guess this is Trump's America.

Let me get this straight. BEFORE, you were bitching about kids being released from detention without their parents,

No. When did I say that?

and how they should remain locked up in order to be with their parents (despite the fact that it was LEFTISTS who insisted on the policy of releasing them). NOW you're pissing and moaning about them being "locked up".

Could you possibly locate whatever passes for your mind and make it up?

I think the families should be released, short of that they should be housed together.

 

[HappyJoy]

Stay gold, Pony Boy, stay gold.

You know, I don't respond well to sarcasm. And your insults show just how degenerative your argument is.

Now your feelings are hurt because I called you Pony Boy? I'm going to call you a snowflake now.

That's ICE GIANT to you.

Oh, shit...I mean sh*t, I didn't realize I was arguing with a 12 year old. Sorry, little guy I had no idea.

Only in your dreams, HJ.

What does that mean?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

For once you and I agree: let the Democrat party go full liberal, even socialist or Communist. That will teach us Republicans.

I don't think Republicans have the ability to learn.

We don't? The left has been promoting immigration, promoting the right as racist, sexist, homophobe. Your last candidate referred to us as deplorables. But we don't have the ability to learn?

You people have been losing power the last ten years, yet you think your decades old strategy is working just fine.

 

[MikeK]

You heard it from the trumpanzees...they now have the expectation that the children of burglars will be put in cages.

Not what I wrote!

Do you consciously and deliberately distort by altering the framework of a comment, or is doing that your natural, pre-conscious inclination? To unlawfully enter and inhabit the U.S. (or any other country) is a crime.

If you commit the crime of illegal migration while accompanied by your children, should you be absolved of punishment to avoid subjecting your children to it? If so it doesn't require a genius IQ to anticipate the outcome of such self-defeating stupidity exercised in the name of kindness.

 

[Pop23]

Scare them? You have to be joking. In Guatemala children 10 to 15 are routinely kidnapped, raped and murdered and the police don't even investigation. Teens are forcibly recruitment by street gangs and transnational drug cartels, after witnessed the murders of family members, friends and classmates. Exactly how do you plan to scare the shit out of them?

And the same thugs would think nothing of abducting a child and crossing our border with them.

Think about that

Child traffickers and victims posing as families are easily identified by law enforcement when apprehended. Victims almost universally show relief when questioned by law enforcement. The most common methods of transporting victims is as cargo in trucks and boats, not walking across the desert.

Yes and our very savvy and well experienced professionals are no doubt very adept at sorting through these claims.

Most teen girls are deceived as to why they are being smuggled. Told they were going to get good jobs. They don’t know different until it’s too late and do not turn their smugglers in, they believe them.

You are simply Naive.

Yes, that's it. All govt employees are incompetent and in no way gain experience when processing thousands of cases anually.

But I'm naive.

They’ve been doing this for decades chump. Your side says just take the adults word for it. Makes the smugglers jobs a bit easier i’d Say.

So yes, Naive is the word

 

[Ame®icano]

The thing with you, just as most of you on the left is that when can explain your reasoning or give an argument, you pull out the race card. Reason is simple, you don't have an argument, and race card is all you have left. Just like a ketchup, you're stick it to anything.

You wanna call it an insult, than call it an insult. Still, it's not racial slur, period.

Its an insult based on skin color….hence racial slur. I’m sure that Trumpians like yourself aren’t interested in the fine distinctions between Hondurans, Nicaraguans, Mexicans, etc…..

No it's not.

You wishing it's a racial slur doesn't make it one. It's a derisive term which refers to Mexicans, and it's based on country of origin.

By the way, since you mentioned, what skin color Mexicans have, please?

Now that is funny…

Yeah…someone like you who calls people “beaners” as a sign of affection makes a distinction between Mexicans and other latinos. Riiiight.

Someone like me?
Nope, I did not call anyone a beaner, I joined the conversation to explain to you that beaner is not a racial slur.
Now, since you do know the distinction, why don't you answer the question: What skin color Mexicans have?
Or you gonna act dumb and dodge it again...

Have you/will you gone/go into a chicano bar and called the bartender a beaner and shown how much you love the race?

Are you going to dodge the question or answer it?

I recall I asked you question several times that you did provided answer to.

You don't get to ask me anything until you do so. Capisce?