What is a fair tax rate?

[Shelzin]

Well... As I said before... I think the main disagreement we have is this:

It seems as if you want to figure out a way to pay for what we do, while I on the other hand... And a few others... Want to stop the bullshit, rather than pay for it.

And... You are STILL ignorant about how much money the federal government is really giving to the states for your assertions.

Yes, that is true. I just thinking slashing the budget is really a separate topic to how much tax we pay.

It should be... However I can't think of any other way to make sure it happens. The problem isn't that the federal government taxes... The problem is the Federal government has given itself power that it shouldn't have.

I do understand the key points about federal v state services - again I don't see it as a crucial issue. Services still have to paid for by citizens, ultimately.

I absolutely agree. However it should be the state taking care of the shit, not the federal government. And you are supporting the Federal government to do it... I have no choice but stand against you.


Edit: I don't think you see it as a crucial issue is because that's not how Finland does it. As an American it's pretty damn critical.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Romney pays 14% on his taxes.

I pay 25%.

This is the real redistribution of wealth in America.....welfare for the wealthy.

It's worse than that. Beginning with Reagan's first term he and the Bushes have borrowed massive amounts from foreign banks to fund tax cuts for the wealthy.

 

[bripat9643]

Saigon is simply admitting that leftists are all callous self-centered skin flints who wouldn't lift a finger to help their own grannies.

No, again, slashing welfare is YOUR idea - not mine.

My god, BriPat - you're not a very sharp poster, are you?

You're really quite stupid, ya know it, Saigon?

If slashing welfare would cause your grannie to starve, it's only because you refused to lift a finger to prevent her from starving. You see, welfare isn't the only means we have to prevent our family members from starving. Before welfare, when a family member could no longer take care of themselves, people took those family members into their own homes and fed them.

I know that's difficult for a creature of the welfare state like you to fathom. nevertheless, it's an historical fact.

 

[bripat9643]

The electric grid is already privately owned, as is much of policing and sewage. Furthermore, most of the functions you list are paid for by local government. We all know that 80% of the federal budget is devoted to income transfer programs, That is, it's devoted to mulcting and looting the productive members of society for the benefit of parasites and moochers.

So does local government offer these services free of charge?

This came up on page 1 of this thread, I think, and I said the same thing then - ultimately it does not matter WHO we pay tax to (local, state or federal) or who provides the services.

What matters is how MUCH we pay, and the quality of the service.

The lower the flat tax rate, the less services any public authority can provide, and the more that will need to be privatised.

Most of state and local taxes also goes to pay for income transfer programs. Something like 40% of most state budgets goes to pay for Medicaid. Most of our taxes do not pay for the services that make modern life agreeable. They are essentially stolen swag that goes to looters and moochers.

 

[bripat9643]

Romney pays 14% on his taxes.

I pay 25%.

This is the real redistribution of wealth in America.....welfare for the wealthy.

It's worse than that. Beginning with Reagan's first term he and the Bushes have borrowed massive amounts from foreign banks to fund tax cuts for the wealthy.

Another idiot chimes in with an irrelevant falsehood.

 

[Saigon]

BriPat -

I never like the amount of abuse and name calling on this site and conider it most of it unjustified. Most people here seem reasonably intelligent and normal to me.

You, however, are without question dense to a degree science could scarely ever hope to measure.

Let me explain in as simple terms as I can manage:

1) At the moment, social welfare protects people such as the mentally ill and the aged from destitution.

2) You wish to remove that safety net.

3) Thus, those policies will necessarily force the aged and mentally ill into a life of begging.

This has nothing to do with me, or any mythical 'leftists' or Democrats or anyone else.

And yes - I know you won't understand this either.

 

[boedicca]

15% for everyone on all sources of income. One federal tax. Period. Get rid of SS, Medicare, Excise Taxes and all other taxes and fees. No deductions, no loopholes, no tax shelters - with one exception. Up to 20% of income can be put into individual retirement accounts on a tax deferred basis.

No corporate taxes as that is double taxation and a deterrent to investment and job creation.

 

[bripat9643]

BriPat -

I never like the amount of abuse and name calling on this site and conider it most of it unjustified. Most people here seem reasonably intelligent and normal to me.

If you don't like abuse and name calling, then quit accusing everyone who opposes your socialist schemes to loot the productive members of society of being callous assholes who are content to watch their mothers starve.

You, however, are without question dense to a degree science could scarely ever hope to measure.

"Dense" meaning I don't swallow any of your bogus Marxist premises.

Let me explain in as simple terms as I can manage:

1) At the moment, social welfare protects people such as the mentally ill and the aged from destitution.

2) You wish to remove that safety net.

3) Thus, those policies will necessarily force the aged and mentally ill into a life of begging.

No. That would only happen if people were unwilling to take care of their aged or mentally ill family members. I realize that callous, self centered skin flints like most liberals wouldn't lift a finger to help their mothers if they were begging in the streets, but before the advent of welfare, that's exactly how we took care of the aged and the mentally disabled.

Your insistence that everyone who couldn't earn a living would starve without government programs is based on the assumption that such people don't have families who care for them. In the case of left-wingers, that may be the case, but most people do care about their parents and grandparents.

The only question here is whether people take personal responsibility for their incapacitated family members or whether we foist their care on the taxpayers. You pretend the later course of action is the choice of those who "care." I say that's bullshit. It's the choice of cynical ingrates who can't be bothered with taking personal responsibility but still want to pose as caring somehow.

This has nothing to do with me, or any mythical 'leftists' or Democrats or anyone else.

And yes - I know you won't understand this either.

This has everything to do with you and every other leftist who likes to pretend he cares about people because he wants to foist the care and feeding of his aging family members on the taxpayers.

I understand exactly where you're coming from. That's what you dislike so much.

 

[Toro]

You want a VAT tax on top of all the other taxes?!?!

Two words.......Fuck You

I agree 100%.

One thing is clear, Saigon's greed for more of the taxpayer's money is insatiable.

That may be because I understand what the words 'fiscal conservative' mean, whereas you do not.

The GOP does not pursue conservative tax policies these days, because it has become far too extreme for such mainstream conservative solutions. In this, ironically, you end up more to the left than right because your own leaders are so desperate to flee the political centre.

A VAT is not a conservative policy, at least not in America.

 

[BallsBrunswick]

To me a flat Federal sales tax makes the most sense and is the most fair. However, I've had long debates with people about this where they pull all sorts of whackadoo notions into the conversation about how that wouldn't be fair.

 

[Care4all]

15% for everyone on all sources of income. One federal tax. Period. Get rid of SS, Medicare, Excise Taxes and all other taxes and fees. No deductions, no loopholes, no tax shelters - with one exception. Up to 20% of income can be put into individual retirement accounts on a tax deferred basis.

No corporate taxes as that is double taxation and a deterrent to investment and job creation.

I keep hearing that corporate taxes are truly paid for the most part, by the consumer who buys the corporation's product....

Do you think this is true or close to being true boe?

 

[buckeye45_73]

15% for everyone on all sources of income. One federal tax. Period. Get rid of SS, Medicare, Excise Taxes and all other taxes and fees. No deductions, no loopholes, no tax shelters - with one exception. Up to 20% of income can be put into individual retirement accounts on a tax deferred basis.

No corporate taxes as that is double taxation and a deterrent to investment and job creation.

I keep hearing that corporate taxes are truly paid for the most part, by the consumer who buys the corporation's product....

Do you think this is true or close to being true boe?

yeah, I take it you dont?

 

[Intense]

To me a flat Federal sales tax makes the most sense and is the most fair. However, I've had long debates with people about this where they pull all sorts of whackadoo notions into the conversation about how that wouldn't be fair.

I totally support a Flat % Tax, for Employment Income, Investment Income, for both Rich and Poor. You know the DNC will throw you under the bus for talking like that, right? It's kin of like the end of the free ride for the angry horde. You sure you don't want to change your mind?

 

[alan1]

15% for everyone on all sources of income. One federal tax. Period. Get rid of SS, Medicare, Excise Taxes and all other taxes and fees. No deductions, no loopholes, no tax shelters - with one exception. Up to 20% of income can be put into individual retirement accounts on a tax deferred basis.

No corporate taxes as that is double taxation and a deterrent to investment and job creation.

I keep hearing that corporate taxes are truly paid for the most part, by the consumer who buys the corporation's product....

Do you think this is true or close to being true boe?

According to Economics 101 it is true.
A business always passes the cost of doing business onto the consumer, including taxes.

Let us suppose for a moment that you, Care4all, own a business. After expenses and taxes you make $70,000 a year. Now, suppose that the government raised your business taxes by $35,000 a year. Would you just suck that up and allow your income to be reduced by $35,000 a year, or would you raise prices to offset the increased taxation?

 

[Toro]

15% for everyone on all sources of income. One federal tax. Period. Get rid of SS, Medicare, Excise Taxes and all other taxes and fees. No deductions, no loopholes, no tax shelters - with one exception. Up to 20% of income can be put into individual retirement accounts on a tax deferred basis.

No corporate taxes as that is double taxation and a deterrent to investment and job creation.

I keep hearing that corporate taxes are truly paid for the most part, by the consumer who buys the corporation's product....

Do you think this is true or close to being true boe?

According to Economics 101 it is true.
A business always passes the cost of doing business onto the consumer, including taxes.

Let us suppose for a moment that you, Care4all, own a business. After expenses and taxes you make $70,000 a year. Now, suppose that the government raised your business taxes by $35,000 a year. Would you just suck that up and allow your income to be reduced by $35,000 a year, or would you raise prices to offset the increased taxation?

Depends on price elasticity. If prices are inelastic, then the consumer would swallow most of the tax. If prices are highly elastic, then the shareholder eats much of the tax.

 

[Care4all]

15% for everyone on all sources of income. One federal tax. Period. Get rid of SS, Medicare, Excise Taxes and all other taxes and fees. No deductions, no loopholes, no tax shelters - with one exception. Up to 20% of income can be put into individual retirement accounts on a tax deferred basis.

No corporate taxes as that is double taxation and a deterrent to investment and job creation.

I keep hearing that corporate taxes are truly paid for the most part, by the consumer who buys the corporation's product....

Do you think this is true or close to being true boe?

yeah, I take it you dont?

yes, I think it is true, up to the point of what the market or consumer can bear....if raising the price due to taxes being raised on them causes resistance in buying the product on the consumers part, then I think the corporation will take a portion of that increase in taxes out of their own bottom line....

 

[BallsBrunswick]

To me a flat Federal sales tax makes the most sense and is the most fair. However, I've had long debates with people about this where they pull all sorts of whackadoo notions into the conversation about how that wouldn't be fair.

I totally support a Flat % Tax, for Employment Income, Investment Income, for both Rich and Poor. You know the DNC will throw you under the bus for talking like that, right? It's kin of like the end of the free ride for the angry horde. You sure you don't want to change your mind?

Why would I care what Democrats think? It's about what's the most fair and what works best for this country. Not what corrupt rich dickheads on one side of the imaginary line or the other thinks.

 

[Care4all]

15% for everyone on all sources of income. One federal tax. Period. Get rid of SS, Medicare, Excise Taxes and all other taxes and fees. No deductions, no loopholes, no tax shelters - with one exception. Up to 20% of income can be put into individual retirement accounts on a tax deferred basis.

No corporate taxes as that is double taxation and a deterrent to investment and job creation.

I keep hearing that corporate taxes are truly paid for the most part, by the consumer who buys the corporation's product....

Do you think this is true or close to being true boe?

The reason I was asking is because you state that corporate taxes are double taxation on the corporation, BUT if the consumer, for the MOST PART is paying the corporation's taxes through the price of the product, then exactly HOW is it double taxation on the corporation?

 

[Oddball]

So, has anyone tried to argue that 0% isn't the most fair rate?

 

[bripat9643]

So, has anyone tried to argue that 0% isn't the most fair rate?

No. The libturds only whine that grannie would starve if we paid 0%. Perhaps their grannies would starve, but mine wouldn't. That's the difference between the left and the right.