What is accomplished by prayer?

[tycho1572]

People pray because it helps them, Czernobog. It has nothing to do with our beliefs.

Yeah...get that from a fortune cookie? Cuz it's about as useful as an answer... You might just as well say "We pray because it makes us feel good,"

I’m good with people like you bitching because you can.

 

[Czernobog]

So, you don't think God heals through prayer, but you think God heals through prayer...

What I think is that you don't understand. At least I see no evidence of understanding. Perhaps prayer is something one needs to practice in order to achieve a better understanding of what it is--and what it is not.

Kinda like faith, right? Just go with it, and suddenly it all makes sense...

 

[Darkwind]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

I'll ask the next baboon I run across. I'm sure that he will have the same incomprehension of God as you do.


For the rest of us, a prayer is a form of meditation. There are mnemonic phrases that help us meditate, sounds and rhythms that aid us in the calming of our minds.

Communion with God requires a clear and calm mind.

Soooo. It's Yoga For Christians. Got it.

Yoga? Is English a second language for you? Interesting.

Go enjoy some fruit and have a good night.

Yeah. Yoga. Go check it out, and see how it applies to the superficial explanation of prayer that you offered.

Well, if you don't know the difference between meditation and yoga, I can't help you. The lack of evolution is getting in your way.

Enjoy the colors.

 

[MaryL]

Posting on this thread is like prayer. Say stuff. Response, ignored. Life goes on....

 

[Czernobog]

No --- that's not what I said ---- though, nice try at perverting the written word.

I said that those of us who pray do so with the knowledge that what happens is a result of our exercise of free will --- and that asking for assistance, whether for ourselves or for others, may, or may not, as God deems, be answered. But, it never hurts to ask. Who knows? Maybe a miracle will happen --- nothing wrong for asking for one.

I don't think I did, pervert what you said, but I went back and reread your post. and have a whole new problem with it, so let's try again:

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

I'll choose to ignore the ad hominem. You're welcome.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

We'll forego the question of free will for a moment. Are you suggesting that any peril you are ever in is a result of you not doing what God expects of you? Sooo...if you got cancer? That would be your fault? Or, if a drunk driver hit you, and put you in a hospital? That would be your fault? Your words: "I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions" That leaves no room for anything happening to you that you did not bring on yourself. REALLY???? What are you? One of those people who thinks the hurricanes this season were "curses from God"?

 

[Meriweather]

Kinda like faith, right? Just go with it, and suddenly it all makes sense...

Not having faith is like the little kid in swim lessons who won't let go of the side of the pool and swim to the teacher. Faith is trusting that if he does let go, the teacher will not let him drown. That first leap of faith is the first step to becoming an Olympic swimmer.

For believers, that first leap of faith is deciding to love God more than anyone or anything else in life. It's the first step to God actually becoming what is loved best in life. For God to actually become what is loved best will probably take more time than it would take to become an Olympic swimmer. Is that worth the time and effort? Each person must answer that for himself.

 

[Spare_change]

No --- that's not what I said ---- though, nice try at perverting the written word.

I said that those of us who pray do so with the knowledge that what happens is a result of our exercise of free will --- and that asking for assistance, whether for ourselves or for others, may, or may not, as God deems, be answered. But, it never hurts to ask. Who knows? Maybe a miracle will happen --- nothing wrong for asking for one.

I don't think I did, pervert what you said, but I went back and reread your post. and have a whole new problem with it, so let's try again:

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

I'll choose to ignore the ad hominem. You're welcome.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

We'll forego the question of free will for a moment. Are you suggesting that any peril you are ever in is a result of you not doing what God expects of you? Sooo...if you got cancer? That would be your fault? Or, if a drunk driver hit you, and put you in a hospital? That would be your fault? Your words: "I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions" That leaves no room for anything happening to you that you did not bring on yourself. REALLY???? What are you? One of those people who thinks the hurricanes this season were "curses from God"?

"Are you suggesting that any peril you are ever in is a result of you not doing what God expects of you? Sooo...if you got cancer? That would be your fault? Or, if a drunk driver hit you, and put you in a hospital? That would be your fault? Your words: "I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions" That leaves no room for anything happening to you that you did not bring on yourself. REALLY???? What are you? One of those people who thinks the hurricanes this season were "curses from God"?"

No, that's not what I said at all ... what I said was that God does not interfere in my life. He stands in judgement, but the decisions are mine. The results are owned by me, as well. I don't blame God for that drunk driver - I don't blame God for my cancer - I don't blame God for hurricanes.

I made a thousand decisions that led to me being in a place to be hit by a drunk driver - I made a thousand decisions that exposed me to whatever caused my cancer (even if we don't know what it was). Of course, the drunk driver is legally and morally culpable for the accident, but I contributed, simply by being there.

Once again, you tried to move the goal posts by (intentionally, i suspect) misinterpreting what I said.

 

[Czernobog]

Posting on this thread is like prayer. Say stuff. Response, ignored. Life goes on....

Sorry I didn't res;pond. I didn't disagree with what you said. It just didn't seem particularly germane to the discussion at hand.

 

[Czernobog]

No --- that's not what I said ---- though, nice try at perverting the written word.

I said that those of us who pray do so with the knowledge that what happens is a result of our exercise of free will --- and that asking for assistance, whether for ourselves or for others, may, or may not, as God deems, be answered. But, it never hurts to ask. Who knows? Maybe a miracle will happen --- nothing wrong for asking for one.

I don't think I did, pervert what you said, but I went back and reread your post. and have a whole new problem with it, so let's try again:

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

I'll choose to ignore the ad hominem. You're welcome.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

We'll forego the question of free will for a moment. Are you suggesting that any peril you are ever in is a result of you not doing what God expects of you? Sooo...if you got cancer? That would be your fault? Or, if a drunk driver hit you, and put you in a hospital? That would be your fault? Your words: "I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions" That leaves no room for anything happening to you that you did not bring on yourself. REALLY???? What are you? One of those people who thinks the hurricanes this season were "curses from God"?

"Are you suggesting that any peril you are ever in is a result of you not doing what God expects of you? Sooo...if you got cancer? That would be your fault? Or, if a drunk driver hit you, and put you in a hospital? That would be your fault? Your words: "I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions" That leaves no room for anything happening to you that you did not bring on yourself. REALLY???? What are you? One of those people who thinks the hurricanes this season were "curses from God"?"

No, that's not what I said at all ... what I said was that God does not interfere in my life. He stands in judgement, but the decisions are mine. The results are owned by me, as well. I don't blame God for that drunk driver - I don't blame God for my cancer - I don't blame God for hurricanes.

I made a thousand decisions that led to me being in a place to be hit by a drunk driver - I made a thousand decisions that exposed me to whatever caused my cancer (even if we don't know what it was). Of course, the drunk driver is legally and morally culpable for the accident, but I contributed, simply by being there.

Once again, you tried to move the goal posts by (intentionally, i suspect) misinterpreting what I said.

I'm not the one changing the subject here. I asked about the efficacy of making prayer requests - help with employment for a parishioner, healing for,] either one's self, or others, guidance with surgery, things of that nature, and you are trying to turn this into your free will to do things, and God not interfering in your life. I'm glad to hear that God doesn't interfere in your life, now can we get back to what I was actually asking about?

 

[Czernobog]

I have a very simple question: When one prays for things, either for one's self, or others - employment, money, healing from illness, or injury, things of this nature, what, exactly does such prayer accomplish? why is it that every single Christian who responds wants to respond with justifications for every other kind of prayer except this particular type. Is the question really that difficult to answer?

 

[tycho1572]

I have a very simple question: When one prays for things, either for one's self, or others - employment, money, healing from illness, or injury, things of this nature, what, exactly does such prayer accomplish? why is it that every single Christian who responds wants to respond with justifications for every other kind of prayer except this particular type. Is the question really that difficult to answer?

Like you were told earlier by WillHaftawaite, it's something you'll never understand.

 

[tycho1572]

Here's a song I think you'll like, Czernobog ...

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

"you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers."

Now this is why you deserve ridicule. Being dictated a bunch of authoritative statements (that are really just your opinions) is not "teaching", it's dogma-vomiting.

You can't teach this garbage, because there is nothing to "teach". I could get 100 of you religious goofballs in a room together, and I would get 100 different opinions on and versions of the nonsense you just spouted. In fact, you can watch that phenomenon happen right here in this thread.

If you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions.

Instead, you are just vomiting a stream of your own fetishes, opinions, and neuroses. That's not "teaching", and it certainly is not anything resembling "knowledge".

As a former adjunct professor at the University of Southern California, in engineering, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of engineering principles.

Now, that you're done with your nonsensical tirade, are you going to go away and let the adults talk?

What does you knowing engineering principles have to do with anything I said? Nothing, that's what. You religious conmen all use the same, tired playbook.

... and I quote from your previous post:

"f you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions"

You don't even realize what you post .... I wonder why we waste our time with the likes of you.

But those thongs are true, no matter what your background is. Stating your background does not speak to a word I said, and is not an appriopriate response. In fact, it's mindless and vapid, and is merely you wanting to dodge my point while still putting words on your screen for you to green amd fawn over.

You don't have a point - have never had a point - and wouldn't recognize a point if someone poked you with it.

You personify "mindless blather".

I did make a point, and you are sidestepping it. Don't worry... I knew you would.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

I'll ask the next baboon I run across. I'm sure that he will have the same incomprehension of God as you do.


For the rest of us, a prayer is a form of meditation. There are mnemonic phrases that help us meditate, sounds and rhythms that aid us in the calming of our minds.

Communion with God requires a clear and calm mind.

Soooo. It's Yoga For Christians. Got it.

Yoga? Is English a second language for you? Interesting.

Go enjoy some fruit and have a good night.

Yeah. Yoga. Go check it out, and see how it applies to the superficial explanation of prayer that you offered.

Well, if you don't know the difference between meditation and yoga, I can't help you. The lack of evolution is getting in your way.

Enjoy the colors.

He didn't imply that they were equivalent, just that they were similar in one way or another. If you don't know the difference in that, then I suggest you take a discrete math course or a computer programming course, in order to brush up on your logic.

 

[skye]

Do not make fun of prayer.....

do not....


I mean it

 

[Czernobog]

I have a very simple question: When one prays for things, either for one's self, or others - employment, money, healing from illness, or injury, things of this nature, what, exactly does such prayer accomplish? why is it that every single Christian who responds wants to respond with justifications for every other kind of prayer except this particular type. Is the question really that difficult to answer?

Like you were told earlier by WillHaftawaite, it's something you'll never understand.

DOUBLE FLAG ON THE PLAY

​

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Do not make fun of prayer.....

do not....


I mean it

"Nothing fails like prayer"

Like that? Saw it on a bumper sticker.

 

[skye]

Prayer makes my life worth living.

BLESS.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Prayer makes my life worth living.

BLESS.

If it makes you happy, it makes me happy for you. I recommend you do not stop, lest you commit suicide.

 

[Darkwind]

I'll ask the next baboon I run across. I'm sure that he will have the same incomprehension of God as you do.


For the rest of us, a prayer is a form of meditation. There are mnemonic phrases that help us meditate, sounds and rhythms that aid us in the calming of our minds.

Communion with God requires a clear and calm mind.

Soooo. It's Yoga For Christians. Got it.

Yoga? Is English a second language for you? Interesting.

Go enjoy some fruit and have a good night.

Yeah. Yoga. Go check it out, and see how it applies to the superficial explanation of prayer that you offered.

Well, if you don't know the difference between meditation and yoga, I can't help you. The lack of evolution is getting in your way.

Enjoy the colors.

He didn't imply that they were equivalent, just that they were similar in one way or another. If you don't know the difference in that, then I suggest you take a discrete math course or a computer programming course, in order to brush up on your logic.

LMAO

I have a degree in Web Development which entails discrete math AND logic along with OOP concepts in Java and C# plus scripting in Emacs (javascript), PHP, and Pearl.

He, and you don't seem to understand the difference between meditation methodology and the concept of mind/body strengthening.

Yoga is an exercise for strengthening the body with some aspects of mind/body harmony.....Meditation is the practice of mindfulness. The quieting and discipline of the mind.

I suggest examining the colors of Picasso to see if you just see colors or some deeper meaning.