What is accomplished by prayer?

[Czernobog]

Prayer encompasses a personal belief in God that helps many through tough times.
It’s not something we should be questioning or degenerating.

I categorically disagree. First of all, "Prayer encompasses a personal belief in God..." in no way answers the question asked. Second, I will never agree that the wilful disregard of reason, and logic (faith) is ever a positive thing.

You're questioning others beliefs. That’s something you shouldn’t be doing because it’s personal to them.

Says who? Everyone has a right to their beliefs. There is nothing that says that right comes with a guarantee that you need not defend it.

“What is accomplished by prayer?”

I hope I was able to answer your question.

Clearly you were not, and you know you were not. Thanks for playing. Do feel free to pick up your parting gifts on the way out.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

Ok, I admit it --- I am weak. I will ask Him to make it all better, to help me avoid the consequences of my actions, but that is a cry of anguish, rather than supplication. What I really want is reassurance of His presence, his support. I know I must be held accountable, but I want to be reassured of His love.

"you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers."

Now this is why you deserve ridicule. Being dictated a bunch of authoritative statements (that are really just your opinions) is not "teaching", it's dogma-vomiting.

You can't teach this garbage, because there is nothing to "teach". I could get 100 of you religious goofballs in a room together, and I would get 100 different opinions on and versions of the nonsense you just spouted. In fact, you can watch that phenomenon happen right here in this thread.

If you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions.

Instead, you are just vomiting a stream of your own fetishes, opinions, and neuroses. That's not "teaching", and it certainly is not anything resembling "knowledge".

 

[Czernobog]

He obviously feels terribly guilty about something, like the other obsessed Xian bashers seem to.

Yeah. That's what it is. LOL

ON EDIT: Actually, upon reflection, you're right. I do feel a bit guilty about something: I feel guilty about all of those poor intelligent people that I convinced to ignore their reason, and logic when I was one of the brainwashed, and led them into a life of ignorant sheep following. I do feel a little guilty about that. Unfortunately, there is little I can do about that. All I can do know, is do my best to rescue as many as I can from that wilful rejection of logic and reason.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

Yet another thread where the haters proudly proclaim Christianity is so bad for people yet refuse to name even one negative impact. Czernobog being the latest hater to runaway and refuse to back up their claims.

Really? how about this list of things that Christianity has done, and continues to do to harm society:

1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.
2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.
3. Women treated like second-class citizens based on religious teachings.
4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.
5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).
6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of their belief in an afterlife.
7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.
8. People dying – and letting their children die – because their religion forbids accepting medical help.
9. People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.
10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.
11. Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care for themselves and their children.
12. People disowning family members for leaving their religion.
13. Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.
14. “Abstinence-only” sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies – often leading to ill-fated “emergency” marriages.
15. Women having septic abortions—or being forced to have unwanted children they resent—because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
16. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
17. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans (“They’re devil-worshipers!”)
18. Children spending the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.
19. People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.
20. Long-term environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that the rapture/apocalypse or something will happen soon, so they don’t matter.
21. Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands (and vice versa).
22. Holy wars – followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
23. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
24. Slavery condoned by religious texts.
25. Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they’ll be too frightened to even question religion.
26. Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn’t believe it would result in eternal torture.
27. School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.
28. Persecution of “heretics”/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.
29. Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed or limit sales, while churches can generate more revenue.
30. Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they’re right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.
31. Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
32. People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.
33. Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court, or in half a dozen countries around the world, laws requiring their execution
34. Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, “heathen” religions and cultures.
35. Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality (“why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don’t I have enough faith?”).
36. Human achievements—from skillful surgery to to emergency landings—attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.
37. Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.
38. Tens of billions annually in the US alone spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.
39. Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.
40. Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it’s like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

But, you know...Christianity has never done any harm...

Now, here comes the response: "But you are ignoring all of the good that Christianity has done!"

In ...3 ...2 ...1 ...

Let's go to #2.
2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.

So why are you against incest and polygamy? Yeah, it's OK for you to tell someone what they can and cannot do, but nobody can criticize your sexual aversions.

Presumption much? I have no problem with polygamy. Incest? Well, there is actual scientific evidence of the effect of incest on genetics. You can't say the same for homosexuality.

Now, back to the polygamy problem, I do think that legalising polygamy would pay havoc on the tax code in this country, but I'm pretty sure we could figure out how to make it work. Why? Are you against polygamy? Because it was certainly practised by several of your biblical patriarchs.

 

[Meriweather]

That's a cop out and you know it. The prayers of the type I specifically gave examples were not prayers for "general healing". They were prayers for direct action from God. Quite skirting the question.

No, it's not a cop-out. It is a direct from the shoulder response. Nor is what I described prayers for "General Healing." I said God is pure spirit, we too are composed of spirit, and that God works through our spirit. That is the direct action. For example, if I should have an intestinal problem, I would tell God of that specific problem and request any help He could provide me. I would have no expectation of waking up the following morning and discovering two magic tablets on my nightstand. That is not how prayer works. God works through the spirit.

 

[Czernobog]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

I showed you what prayer does to the brain a few weeks back... and these images are scientific facts..Remember?


.

However, if I remember correctly, the type of prayer to which you were referring is specifically not the type of prayer to which I am referring.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

He obviously feels terribly guilty about something, like the other obsessed Xian bashers seem to.

Yeah. That's what it is. LOL

ON EDIT: Actually, upon reflection, you're right. I do feel a bit guilty about something: I feel guilty about all of those poor intelligent people that I convinced to ignore their reason, and logic when I was one of the brainwashed, and led them into a life of ignorant sheep following. I do feel a little guilty about that. Unfortunately, there is little I can do about that. All I can do know, is do my best to rescue as many as I can from that wilful rejection of logic and reason.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

Yet another thread where the haters proudly proclaim Christianity is so bad for people yet refuse to name even one negative impact. Czernobog being the latest hater to runaway and refuse to back up their claims.

Really? how about this list of things that Christianity has done, and continues to do to harm society:

1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.
2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.
3. Women treated like second-class citizens based on religious teachings.
4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.
5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).
6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of their belief in an afterlife.
7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.
8. People dying – and letting their children die – because their religion forbids accepting medical help.
9. People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.
10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.
11. Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care for themselves and their children.
12. People disowning family members for leaving their religion.
13. Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.
14. “Abstinence-only” sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies – often leading to ill-fated “emergency” marriages.
15. Women having septic abortions—or being forced to have unwanted children they resent—because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
16. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
17. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans (“They’re devil-worshipers!”)
18. Children spending the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.
19. People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.
20. Long-term environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that the rapture/apocalypse or something will happen soon, so they don’t matter.
21. Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands (and vice versa).
22. Holy wars – followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
23. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
24. Slavery condoned by religious texts.
25. Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they’ll be too frightened to even question religion.
26. Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn’t believe it would result in eternal torture.
27. School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.
28. Persecution of “heretics”/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.
29. Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed or limit sales, while churches can generate more revenue.
30. Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they’re right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.
31. Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
32. People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.
33. Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court, or in half a dozen countries around the world, laws requiring their execution
34. Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, “heathen” religions and cultures.
35. Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality (“why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don’t I have enough faith?”).
36. Human achievements—from skillful surgery to to emergency landings—attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.
37. Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.
38. Tens of billions annually in the US alone spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.
39. Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.
40. Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it’s like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

But, you know...Christianity has never done any harm...

Now, here comes the response: "But you are ignoring all of the good that Christianity has done!"

In ...3 ...2 ...1 ...

One last one I want to get to first. #10.

10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.

There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe.
WHO | Male circumcision for HIV prevention
Male circumcision for HIV prevention

So who is the unscientific one again?

Good grief, what a stupid fucking argument. For one, you are trying to present something we just learned as a reason for a stupid idea that has been around since the first illiterate goat herder heard these bronze age fairy tales around a fire.

Second, genital mutilation also includes mutilating females. But, being the deep thinker you are NOT, this thought never even fizzled into your brain for a fleeting instant.

Third, you dont get to be the retard who says HIV is "God's wrath", and then also assert he thought ahead of a way to save people from getting it.

Seriously...that was mind-numbingly stupid, on every level.

 

[Czernobog]

He obviously feels terribly guilty about something, like the other obsessed Xian bashers seem to.

Yeah. That's what it is. LOL

ON EDIT: Actually, upon reflection, you're right. I do feel a bit guilty about something: I feel guilty about all of those poor intelligent people that I convinced to ignore their reason, and logic when I was one of the brainwashed, and led them into a life of ignorant sheep following. I do feel a little guilty about that. Unfortunately, there is little I can do about that. All I can do know, is do my best to rescue as many as I can from that wilful rejection of logic and reason.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

Yet another thread where the haters proudly proclaim Christianity is so bad for people yet refuse to name even one negative impact. Czernobog being the latest hater to runaway and refuse to back up their claims.

Really? how about this list of things that Christianity has done, and continues to do to harm society:

1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.
2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.
3. Women treated like second-class citizens based on religious teachings.
4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.
5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).
6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of their belief in an afterlife.
7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.
8. People dying – and letting their children die – because their religion forbids accepting medical help.
9. People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.
10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.
11. Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care for themselves and their children.
12. People disowning family members for leaving their religion.
13. Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.
14. “Abstinence-only” sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies – often leading to ill-fated “emergency” marriages.
15. Women having septic abortions—or being forced to have unwanted children they resent—because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
16. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
17. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans (“They’re devil-worshipers!”)
18. Children spending the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.
19. People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.
20. Long-term environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that the rapture/apocalypse or something will happen soon, so they don’t matter.
21. Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands (and vice versa).
22. Holy wars – followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
23. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
24. Slavery condoned by religious texts.
25. Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they’ll be too frightened to even question religion.
26. Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn’t believe it would result in eternal torture.
27. School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.
28. Persecution of “heretics”/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.
29. Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed or limit sales, while churches can generate more revenue.
30. Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they’re right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.
31. Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
32. People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.
33. Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court, or in half a dozen countries around the world, laws requiring their execution
34. Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, “heathen” religions and cultures.
35. Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality (“why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don’t I have enough faith?”).
36. Human achievements—from skillful surgery to to emergency landings—attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.
37. Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.
38. Tens of billions annually in the US alone spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.
39. Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.
40. Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it’s like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

But, you know...Christianity has never done any harm...

Now, here comes the response: "But you are ignoring all of the good that Christianity has done!"

In ...3 ...2 ...1 ...

Let's go onto #3.
3. Women treated like second-class citizens based on religious teachings.

Women make up much of the Bible, most of them heroes. Ruth, Ester, Queen of Sheba, Mary of Nazareth, Mary of Magdela, Rahab, etc etc. The very first person Jesus told who he was was a woman.

And all of them have the same lesson. "Shut up, know your place, behave, and do what your husband tells you," And this is still the attitude of the majority of the Christian society. Sorry, try that with someone who never read those stories.

 

[Czernobog]

He obviously feels terribly guilty about something, like the other obsessed Xian bashers seem to.

Yeah. That's what it is. LOL

ON EDIT: Actually, upon reflection, you're right. I do feel a bit guilty about something: I feel guilty about all of those poor intelligent people that I convinced to ignore their reason, and logic when I was one of the brainwashed, and led them into a life of ignorant sheep following. I do feel a little guilty about that. Unfortunately, there is little I can do about that. All I can do know, is do my best to rescue as many as I can from that wilful rejection of logic and reason.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

Yet another thread where the haters proudly proclaim Christianity is so bad for people yet refuse to name even one negative impact. Czernobog being the latest hater to runaway and refuse to back up their claims.

Really? how about this list of things that Christianity has done, and continues to do to harm society:

1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.
2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.
3. Women treated like second-class citizens based on religious teachings.
4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.
5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).
6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of their belief in an afterlife.
7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.
8. People dying – and letting their children die – because their religion forbids accepting medical help.
9. People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.
10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.
11. Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care for themselves and their children.
12. People disowning family members for leaving their religion.
13. Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.
14. “Abstinence-only” sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies – often leading to ill-fated “emergency” marriages.
15. Women having septic abortions—or being forced to have unwanted children they resent—because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
16. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
17. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans (“They’re devil-worshipers!”)
18. Children spending the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.
19. People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.
20. Long-term environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that the rapture/apocalypse or something will happen soon, so they don’t matter.
21. Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands (and vice versa).
22. Holy wars – followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
23. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
24. Slavery condoned by religious texts.
25. Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they’ll be too frightened to even question religion.
26. Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn’t believe it would result in eternal torture.
27. School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.
28. Persecution of “heretics”/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.
29. Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed or limit sales, while churches can generate more revenue.
30. Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they’re right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.
31. Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
32. People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.
33. Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court, or in half a dozen countries around the world, laws requiring their execution
34. Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, “heathen” religions and cultures.
35. Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality (“why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don’t I have enough faith?”).
36. Human achievements—from skillful surgery to to emergency landings—attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.
37. Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.
38. Tens of billions annually in the US alone spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.
39. Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.
40. Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it’s like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

But, you know...Christianity has never done any harm...

Now, here comes the response: "But you are ignoring all of the good that Christianity has done!"

In ...3 ...2 ...1 ...

Now #4.
4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.

So Rev Martin Luther King's children hate and fear science and scientists?
Sorry, science validates the Bible, archeological, historical, and physics.

Yeah...Christian kids really learn to respect science.

 

[MaryL]

There is the the fact that religious folks tend to be optimists, and live longer lives statistically. Prayer is akin to the placebo effect, the human mind and positive thought are the key in this. I am an agnostic, not pushing anything here.

 

[Czernobog]

He obviously feels terribly guilty about something, like the other obsessed Xian bashers seem to.

Yeah. That's what it is. LOL

ON EDIT: Actually, upon reflection, you're right. I do feel a bit guilty about something: I feel guilty about all of those poor intelligent people that I convinced to ignore their reason, and logic when I was one of the brainwashed, and led them into a life of ignorant sheep following. I do feel a little guilty about that. Unfortunately, there is little I can do about that. All I can do know, is do my best to rescue as many as I can from that wilful rejection of logic and reason.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

Yet another thread where the haters proudly proclaim Christianity is so bad for people yet refuse to name even one negative impact. Czernobog being the latest hater to runaway and refuse to back up their claims.

Really? how about this list of things that Christianity has done, and continues to do to harm society:

1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.
2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.
3. Women treated like second-class citizens based on religious teachings.
4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.
5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).
6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of their belief in an afterlife.
7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.
8. People dying – and letting their children die – because their religion forbids accepting medical help.
9. People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.
10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.
11. Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care for themselves and their children.
12. People disowning family members for leaving their religion.
13. Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.
14. “Abstinence-only” sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies – often leading to ill-fated “emergency” marriages.
15. Women having septic abortions—or being forced to have unwanted children they resent—because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
16. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
17. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans (“They’re devil-worshipers!”)
18. Children spending the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.
19. People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.
20. Long-term environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that the rapture/apocalypse or something will happen soon, so they don’t matter.
21. Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands (and vice versa).
22. Holy wars – followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
23. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
24. Slavery condoned by religious texts.
25. Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they’ll be too frightened to even question religion.
26. Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn’t believe it would result in eternal torture.
27. School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.
28. Persecution of “heretics”/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.
29. Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed or limit sales, while churches can generate more revenue.
30. Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they’re right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.
31. Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
32. People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.
33. Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court, or in half a dozen countries around the world, laws requiring their execution
34. Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, “heathen” religions and cultures.
35. Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality (“why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don’t I have enough faith?”).
36. Human achievements—from skillful surgery to to emergency landings—attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.
37. Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.
38. Tens of billions annually in the US alone spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.
39. Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.
40. Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it’s like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

But, you know...Christianity has never done any harm...

Now, here comes the response: "But you are ignoring all of the good that Christianity has done!"

In ...3 ...2 ...1 ...

Onto #5.
5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).

Ah, the "it happened 500 years ago" argument. The today practice you mention is other religions, not mine.
If you want to believe it was done for the good of the people rather than power and control, that is your issue. There is no mention of torturing and burning people at the stake in the Bible.

500 years ago? Really?

Nigerian girl 'killed for witchcraft rituals'


Bringing Witch Killers To Justice

And those are just a couple of examples. Apparently you missed the "a practice which still continues today" part.

 

[Eaglewings]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

I showed you what prayer does to the brain a few weeks back... and these images are scientific facts..Remember?


.

However, if I remember correctly, the type of prayer to which you were referring is specifically not the type of prayer to which I am referring.

Perhaps I am confused by your OP..but maybe this will help .

 

[Czernobog]

He obviously feels terribly guilty about something, like the other obsessed Xian bashers seem to.

Yeah. That's what it is. LOL

ON EDIT: Actually, upon reflection, you're right. I do feel a bit guilty about something: I feel guilty about all of those poor intelligent people that I convinced to ignore their reason, and logic when I was one of the brainwashed, and led them into a life of ignorant sheep following. I do feel a little guilty about that. Unfortunately, there is little I can do about that. All I can do know, is do my best to rescue as many as I can from that wilful rejection of logic and reason.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

Yet another thread where the haters proudly proclaim Christianity is so bad for people yet refuse to name even one negative impact. Czernobog being the latest hater to runaway and refuse to back up their claims.

Really? how about this list of things that Christianity has done, and continues to do to harm society:

1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.
2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.
3. Women treated like second-class citizens based on religious teachings.
4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.
5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).
6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of their belief in an afterlife.
7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.
8. People dying – and letting their children die – because their religion forbids accepting medical help.
9. People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.
10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.
11. Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care for themselves and their children.
12. People disowning family members for leaving their religion.
13. Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.
14. “Abstinence-only” sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies – often leading to ill-fated “emergency” marriages.
15. Women having septic abortions—or being forced to have unwanted children they resent—because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
16. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
17. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans (“They’re devil-worshipers!”)
18. Children spending the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.
19. People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.
20. Long-term environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that the rapture/apocalypse or something will happen soon, so they don’t matter.
21. Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands (and vice versa).
22. Holy wars – followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
23. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
24. Slavery condoned by religious texts.
25. Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they’ll be too frightened to even question religion.
26. Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn’t believe it would result in eternal torture.
27. School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.
28. Persecution of “heretics”/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.
29. Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed or limit sales, while churches can generate more revenue.
30. Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they’re right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.
31. Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
32. People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.
33. Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court, or in half a dozen countries around the world, laws requiring their execution
34. Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, “heathen” religions and cultures.
35. Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality (“why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don’t I have enough faith?”).
36. Human achievements—from skillful surgery to to emergency landings—attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.
37. Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.
38. Tens of billions annually in the US alone spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.
39. Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.
40. Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it’s like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

But, you know...Christianity has never done any harm...

Now, here comes the response: "But you are ignoring all of the good that Christianity has done!"

In ...3 ...2 ...1 ...

Off to #6.
6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of their belief in an afterlife.

What do you mean by "make the most this life"? If you mean not going to third world countries to help people living in boxes with sewage running down the dirt road outside get on their feet to become productive adults and get medical treatment to save lives and make people walk and instead going to bars and watching TV, then I plead guilty. You got me on this one.

Nope. I mean aren't just e3njoying their lives. Christianity has them so twisted up about the quality of their "after life" that they can't just enjoy this life. Conversion therapy comes screaming to mind. For fuck's sake! Quit torturing yourself, ad just be you! But you see, Christianity says you can't do that, because it's eeeeeeebullllllll!!!!!!!!

 

[Czernobog]

He obviously feels terribly guilty about something, like the other obsessed Xian bashers seem to.

Yeah. That's what it is. LOL

ON EDIT: Actually, upon reflection, you're right. I do feel a bit guilty about something: I feel guilty about all of those poor intelligent people that I convinced to ignore their reason, and logic when I was one of the brainwashed, and led them into a life of ignorant sheep following. I do feel a little guilty about that. Unfortunately, there is little I can do about that. All I can do know, is do my best to rescue as many as I can from that wilful rejection of logic and reason.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

Yet another thread where the haters proudly proclaim Christianity is so bad for people yet refuse to name even one negative impact. Czernobog being the latest hater to runaway and refuse to back up their claims.

Really? how about this list of things that Christianity has done, and continues to do to harm society:

1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.
2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.
3. Women treated like second-class citizens based on religious teachings.
4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.
5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).
6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of their belief in an afterlife.
7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.
8. People dying – and letting their children die – because their religion forbids accepting medical help.
9. People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.
10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.
11. Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care for themselves and their children.
12. People disowning family members for leaving their religion.
13. Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.
14. “Abstinence-only” sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies – often leading to ill-fated “emergency” marriages.
15. Women having septic abortions—or being forced to have unwanted children they resent—because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
16. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
17. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans (“They’re devil-worshipers!”)
18. Children spending the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.
19. People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.
20. Long-term environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that the rapture/apocalypse or something will happen soon, so they don’t matter.
21. Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands (and vice versa).
22. Holy wars – followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
23. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
24. Slavery condoned by religious texts.
25. Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they’ll be too frightened to even question religion.
26. Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn’t believe it would result in eternal torture.
27. School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.
28. Persecution of “heretics”/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.
29. Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed or limit sales, while churches can generate more revenue.
30. Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they’re right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.
31. Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
32. People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.
33. Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court, or in half a dozen countries around the world, laws requiring their execution
34. Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, “heathen” religions and cultures.
35. Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality (“why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don’t I have enough faith?”).
36. Human achievements—from skillful surgery to to emergency landings—attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.
37. Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.
38. Tens of billions annually in the US alone spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.
39. Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.
40. Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it’s like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

But, you know...Christianity has never done any harm...

Now, here comes the response: "But you are ignoring all of the good that Christianity has done!"

In ...3 ...2 ...1 ...

We will wrap tonight up with #7.
7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.

What can I say? You and those who do such things read a tiny fraction of the Bible and jump to wild inaccurate conclusions. Free country, their body, their choice, right?

Dude! It's Christianity. You can distance yourself if you like, but it is Christianity, and it is taught to the adherents. Christianity is delusional.

 

[tycho1572]

Prayer encompasses a personal belief in God that helps many through tough times.
It’s not something we should be questioning or degenerating.

I categorically disagree. First of all, "Prayer encompasses a personal belief in God..." in no way answers the question asked. Second, I will never agree that the wilful disregard of reason, and logic (faith) is ever a positive thing.

You're questioning others beliefs. That’s something you shouldn’t be doing because it’s personal to them.

Says who? Everyone has a right to their beliefs. There is nothing that says that right comes with a guarantee that you need not defend it.

“What is accomplished by prayer?”

I hope I was able to answer your question.

Clearly you were not, and you know you were not. Thanks for playing. Do feel free to pick up your parting gifts on the way out.

I wasn’t what?

Did you think I’d tow the bullshit you’re trying to promote?

 

[Darkwind]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

I'll ask the next baboon I run across. I'm sure that he will have the same incomprehension of God as you do.


For the rest of us, a prayer is a form of meditation. There are mnemonic phrases that help us meditate, sounds and rhythms that aid us in the calming of our minds.

Communion with God requires a clear and calm mind.

 

[Synthaholic]

5 Scientifically Supported Benefits of Prayer

11 Benefits of Mud Baths - Baths Roman Spa

 

[Czernobog]

He obviously feels terribly guilty about something, like the other obsessed Xian bashers seem to.

Yeah. That's what it is. LOL

ON EDIT: Actually, upon reflection, you're right. I do feel a bit guilty about something: I feel guilty about all of those poor intelligent people that I convinced to ignore their reason, and logic when I was one of the brainwashed, and led them into a life of ignorant sheep following. I do feel a little guilty about that. Unfortunately, there is little I can do about that. All I can do know, is do my best to rescue as many as I can from that wilful rejection of logic and reason.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

Yet another thread where the haters proudly proclaim Christianity is so bad for people yet refuse to name even one negative impact. Czernobog being the latest hater to runaway and refuse to back up their claims.

Really? how about this list of things that Christianity has done, and continues to do to harm society:

1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.
2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.
3. Women treated like second-class citizens based on religious teachings.
4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.
5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).
6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of their belief in an afterlife.
7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.
8. People dying – and letting their children die – because their religion forbids accepting medical help.
9. People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.
10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.
11. Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care for themselves and their children.
12. People disowning family members for leaving their religion.
13. Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.
14. “Abstinence-only” sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies – often leading to ill-fated “emergency” marriages.
15. Women having septic abortions—or being forced to have unwanted children they resent—because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
16. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
17. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans (“They’re devil-worshipers!”)
18. Children spending the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.
19. People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.
20. Long-term environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that the rapture/apocalypse or something will happen soon, so they don’t matter.
21. Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands (and vice versa).
22. Holy wars – followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
23. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
24. Slavery condoned by religious texts.
25. Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they’ll be too frightened to even question religion.
26. Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn’t believe it would result in eternal torture.
27. School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.
28. Persecution of “heretics”/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.
29. Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed or limit sales, while churches can generate more revenue.
30. Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they’re right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.
31. Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
32. People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.
33. Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court, or in half a dozen countries around the world, laws requiring their execution
34. Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, “heathen” religions and cultures.
35. Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality (“why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don’t I have enough faith?”).
36. Human achievements—from skillful surgery to to emergency landings—attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.
37. Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.
38. Tens of billions annually in the US alone spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.
39. Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.
40. Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it’s like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

But, you know...Christianity has never done any harm...

Now, here comes the response: "But you are ignoring all of the good that Christianity has done!"

In ...3 ...2 ...1 ...

One last one I want to get to first. #10.

10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.

There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe.
WHO | Male circumcision for HIV prevention
Male circumcision for HIV prevention

So who is the unscientific one again?

Learn the facts.

Myth – Male circumcision helps prevent HIV.
Fact – Claims that circumcision prevents HIV have repeatedly been proven to be exaggerated or false. Only abstinence or safe sex, including the use of condoms, can prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV/AIDS.

And there's this:

Black and Latino men were just as likely to become infected with the AIDS virus whether they were circumcised or not, Greg Millett of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found.

“We also found no protective benefit for a subset of black MSM (men who have sex with men) who also had recent sex with female partners,” Millett told reporters in a telephone briefing.

So, yeah. WHO's findings are...disputed, at best.

 

[Darkwind]

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

Yet another thread where the haters proudly proclaim Christianity is so bad for people yet refuse to name even one negative impact. Czernobog being the latest hater to runaway and refuse to back up their claims.

Really? how about this list of things that Christianity has done, and continues to do to harm society:

1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.
2. Vilification of homosexuality, resulting in discrimination, parents disowning their children, murder, and suicide.
3. Women treated like second-class citizens based on religious teachings.
4. Children growing up to hate and fear science and scientists, because science disproves their parents’ religion – leading to appalling scientific illiteracy.
5. Tens of thousands tortured and killed as witches (a practice which still continues today).
6. People aren’t making the most of this life because of their belief in an afterlife.
7. People dying because they believe their faith makes them immune to snake venom, or other lethal aspects of reality.
8. People dying – and letting their children die – because their religion forbids accepting medical help.
9. People choked, starved, poisoned, or beaten to death during exorcisms.
10. Genital mutilation of babies endorsed by religious texts.
11. Psychological and physiological conditions blamed on demons, preventing believers from seeking medical care for themselves and their children.
12. People disowning family members for leaving their religion.
13. Friendships and romances severed or never started over religious differences.
14. “Abstinence-only” sex education, resulting in five times the amount sexually transmitted diseases and teenage pregnancies – often leading to ill-fated “emergency” marriages.
15. Women having septic abortions—or being forced to have unwanted children they resent—because religious organizations have gotten laws passed making abortion illegal or inaccessible.
16. Censorship (often destructive) of speech, art, books, music, films, poetry, songs and, if possible, thought.
17. The demonization of other religions, e.g. Christianity demonizing Pagans (“They’re devil-worshipers!”)
18. Children spending the period of their lives when the brain is most receptive to learning new information reading, rereading, and even memorizing religious texts.
19. People who believe the world is about to end neglect their education, are not financially responsible, and in extreme cases take part in mass suicides.
20. Long-term environmental issues ignored because of beliefs that the rapture/apocalypse or something will happen soon, so they don’t matter.
21. Wives told they will be tortured forever if they leave their abusive husbands (and vice versa).
22. Holy wars – followers of different faiths (or even the same faith) killing each other in the name of their (benevolent, loving and merciful) gods.
23. The destruction of great works of art considered to be pornographic/blasphemous, and the persecution of the artists.
24. Slavery condoned by religious texts.
25. Children traumatized by vivid stories of eternal burning and torture to ensure that they’ll be too frightened to even question religion.
26. Terminal patients in constant agony who would end their lives if they didn’t believe it would result in eternal torture.
27. School boards having to spend time and money and resources on the fight to have evolution taught in the schools.
28. Persecution of “heretics”/scientists, like Giordano Bruno (burned at the stake) and Galileo Galilei.
29. Blue laws forcing other businesses to stay closed or limit sales, while churches can generate more revenue.
30. Mayors, senators, and presidents voted into office not because they’re right for the job, but because of their religious beliefs.
31. Abuse of power, authority and trust by religious leaders (for financial gain or sexual abuse of followers and even children).
32. People accepting visual and auditory hallucinations unquestioningly as divine, sometimes with fatal results.
33. Discrimination against atheists, such as laws stating they may not hold public office or testify in court, or in half a dozen countries around the world, laws requiring their execution
34. Missionaries destroying/converting smaller, “heathen” religions and cultures.
35. Hardship compounded by the guilt required to reconcile the idea of a fair god with reality (“why is God punishing me? What have I done wrong? Don’t I have enough faith?”).
36. Human achievements—from skillful surgery to to emergency landings—attributed to gods instead of to the people actually responsible.
37. Mother Teresa, prolonging the agony of terminal patients and denying them pain relief, so she can offer their suffering as a gift to her god.
38. Tens of billions annually in the US alone spent to build, maintain, and staff houses of worship.
39. Grief and horror caused by the belief that dead friends and family members are tortured as punishment for disbelief.
40. Natural disasters and other tragedies used to claim God is displeased and present demands to avoid similar events (it’s like terrorism, but without having to plan or do anything).

But, you know...Christianity has never done any harm...

Now, here comes the response: "But you are ignoring all of the good that Christianity has done!"

In ...3 ...2 ...1 ...

Let's start at 1.
1. The discouragement of rational, critical thought.

I made my wealth on engineering, and hold a US Patent.
But let's let that ride for a moment.
Kepler, Galilei, Bacon, Pascal, Newton, Faraday, Boyle, Collins, Kelvin, Einstein, Plank, Bach, Beethoven, every man who walked on the moon, etc etc were hindered at rational critical thought?

Let's start with 1 - You choose to believe in a Magic-Man-in-the-Sky for which there is literally no objective evidence whatsoever, and follow a book that is objectively unreliable. That is the very definition of denying rational, critical thought. And in answer to your question, yes, everyone of them eschewed reason for magical thinking. And Einstein was an atheist, thank you very much!

Faith is literally, the encouragement to deny reason, and rational thought.

Faith - firm belief in something for which there is no proof. That is denial of rational, critical thought.

Just as every astronaut who walked on the moon says, they see more than enough proof that Jesus is the Son of God.
You either lack the intellect to recognize it or you refuse to recognize it.

It isn't intellect they lack. After all, primates have a form of intelect. Its rather a form of evolution. The lower lifeforms cannot concieve a deity. They lack that specific evolutionary progress that provides the imagination to question existence, and the creation of things; along with the acknowledgment of a Creator.

Show a squirrel a Picasso painting and it will just think its a random collection of colors. A more evolved imagination can see the art and contemplate its meaning.

 

[Czernobog]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

Ok, I admit it --- I am weak. I will ask Him to make it all better, to help me avoid the consequences of my actions, but that is a cry of anguish, rather than supplication. What I really want is reassurance of His presence, his support. I know I must be held accountable, but I want to be reassured of His love.

That is specifically not the kind of prayer I was asking about, and you know it. Why do all of you Christians suddenly act like you are completely unaware of Christians praying for things - healing, guidance during surgery, money, jobs, etc. - whenever you are asked a direct question about its efficacy?

 

[Czernobog]

That's a cop out and you know it. The prayers of the type I specifically gave examples were not prayers for "general healing". They were prayers for direct action from God. Quite skirting the question.

No, it's not a cop-out. It is a direct from the shoulder response. Nor is what I described prayers for "General Healing." I said God is pure spirit, we too are composed of spirit, and that God works through our spirit. That is the direct action. For example, if I should have an intestinal problem, I would tell God of that specific problem and request any help He could provide me. I would have no expectation of waking up the following morning and discovering two magic tablets on my nightstand. That is not how prayer works. God works through the spirit.

But, would you expect to wake up the next morning with the intestinal problem magically cured?