What is accomplished by prayer?

[Czernobog]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

I'll ask the next baboon I run across. I'm sure that he will have the same incomprehension of God as you do.


For the rest of us, a prayer is a form of meditation. There are mnemonic phrases that help us meditate, sounds and rhythms that aid us in the calming of our minds.

Communion with God requires a clear and calm mind.

Soooo. It's Yoga For Christians. Got it.

 

[Spare_change]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

Ok, I admit it --- I am weak. I will ask Him to make it all better, to help me avoid the consequences of my actions, but that is a cry of anguish, rather than supplication. What I really want is reassurance of His presence, his support. I know I must be held accountable, but I want to be reassured of His love.

"you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers."

Now this is why you deserve ridicule. Being dictated a bunch of authoritative statements (that are really just your opinions) is not "teaching", it's dogma-vomiting.

You can't teach this garbage, because there is nothing to "teach". I could get 100 of you religious goofballs in a room together, and I would get 100 different opinions on and versions of the nonsense you just spouted. In fact, you can watch that phenomenon happen right here in this thread.

If you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions.

Instead, you are just vomiting a stream of your own fetishes, opinions, and neuroses. That's not "teaching", and it certainly is not anything resembling "knowledge".

As a former adjunct professor at the University of Southern California, in engineering, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of engineering principles.

Now, that you're done with your nonsensical tirade, are you going to go away and let the adults talk?

 

[tycho1572]

Were you taught to question and bitch about others doing things you don’t understand, Czernobog?

 

[Darkwind]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

I'll ask the next baboon I run across. I'm sure that he will have the same incomprehension of God as you do.


For the rest of us, a prayer is a form of meditation. There are mnemonic phrases that help us meditate, sounds and rhythms that aid us in the calming of our minds.

Communion with God requires a clear and calm mind.

Soooo. It's Yoga For Christians. Got it.

Yoga? Is English a second language for you? Interesting.

Go enjoy some fruit and have a good night.

 

[Spare_change]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

Ok, I admit it --- I am weak. I will ask Him to make it all better, to help me avoid the consequences of my actions, but that is a cry of anguish, rather than supplication. What I really want is reassurance of His presence, his support. I know I must be held accountable, but I want to be reassured of His love.

That is specifically not the kind of prayer I was asking about, and you know it. Why do all of you Christians suddenly act like you are completely unaware of Christians praying for things - healing, guidance during surgery, money, jobs, etc. - whenever you are asked a direct question about its efficacy?

Actually, you posited two specific instances of prayer - neither of which were venal and self-serving.

I responded in kind ... but you will also notice that I recognized my faults, my weakness, as well as an admission that I know that type of prayer won't work - that, no matter what, I will reap the rewards of my actions. The last paragraph of my last post addresses your attempt to move the goal posts. Do I ask God for a new car? Maybe --- but I'm pretty damn sure I won't go outside and find one in my driveway. It just don't work that way.

Now, if God were to choose to give me a sign - and a new Lexus - I wouldn't be upset.

 

[Meriweather]

But, would you expect to wake up the next morning with the intestinal problem magically cured?

No. I expected to wake up to the reality that the problem would run its course. What surprised people was how upbeat I was considering the current situation and the regimen I would need to follow. Did that assist in healing that went without hitch? Your call.

And, no, I don't believe God magically made me cheerful. What I do believe is that God knows what helps the human psyche. i.e. Be careful of your thoughts... Prayer taps into the unconscious.

What is in your unconscious?

 

[tycho1572]

People pray because it helps them, Czernobog. It has nothing to do with our beliefs.

 

[BreezeWood]

Agreed. His constant harping about Christianity shows deep down he knows it’s true.

Now, see? I haven't harped about anything. I asked a perfectly reasonable question. If you're just here to troll, feel free to fuck off.

99% of your posts are on Christianity. Don’t feel bad about your struggle. Continue to seek the truth and you too can live a happy Christian life.

He obviously feels terribly guilty about something, like the other obsessed Xian bashers seem to.

Yeah. That's what it is. LOL

ON EDIT: Actually, upon reflection, you're right. I do feel a bit guilty about something: I feel guilty about all of those poor intelligent people that I convinced to ignore their reason, and logic when I was one of the brainwashed, and led them into a life of ignorant sheep following. I do feel a little guilty about that. Unfortunately, there is little I can do about that. All I can do know, is do my best to rescue as many as I can from that wilful rejection of logic and reason.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

the Everlasting ...

 

[tycho1572]

Now, see? I haven't harped about anything. I asked a perfectly reasonable question. If you're just here to troll, feel free to fuck off.

99% of your posts are on Christianity. Don’t feel bad about your struggle. Continue to seek the truth and you too can live a happy Christian life.

He obviously feels terribly guilty about something, like the other obsessed Xian bashers seem to.

Yeah. That's what it is. LOL

ON EDIT: Actually, upon reflection, you're right. I do feel a bit guilty about something: I feel guilty about all of those poor intelligent people that I convinced to ignore their reason, and logic when I was one of the brainwashed, and led them into a life of ignorant sheep following. I do feel a little guilty about that. Unfortunately, there is little I can do about that. All I can do know, is do my best to rescue as many as I can from that wilful rejection of logic and reason.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

.

Please, by all means tell me what I have lost as a "brainwashed sheep". I keep asking that question to you haters but you haters never answer it.

the Everlasting ...

As in Tuck Everlasting?

I took one of our nurses swimming where this scene was shot...

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

Ok, I admit it --- I am weak. I will ask Him to make it all better, to help me avoid the consequences of my actions, but that is a cry of anguish, rather than supplication. What I really want is reassurance of His presence, his support. I know I must be held accountable, but I want to be reassured of His love.

"you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers."

Now this is why you deserve ridicule. Being dictated a bunch of authoritative statements (that are really just your opinions) is not "teaching", it's dogma-vomiting.

You can't teach this garbage, because there is nothing to "teach". I could get 100 of you religious goofballs in a room together, and I would get 100 different opinions on and versions of the nonsense you just spouted. In fact, you can watch that phenomenon happen right here in this thread.

If you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions.

Instead, you are just vomiting a stream of your own fetishes, opinions, and neuroses. That's not "teaching", and it certainly is not anything resembling "knowledge".

As a former adjunct professor at the University of Southern California, in engineering, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of engineering principles.

Now, that you're done with your nonsensical tirade, are you going to go away and let the adults talk?

What does you knowing engineering principles have to do with anything I said? Nothing, that's what. You religious conmen all use the same, tired playbook.

 

[Czernobog]

Were you taught to question and bitch about others doing things you don’t understand, Czernobog?

FLAG ON THE PLAY

​

 

[Czernobog]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

I'll ask the next baboon I run across. I'm sure that he will have the same incomprehension of God as you do.


For the rest of us, a prayer is a form of meditation. There are mnemonic phrases that help us meditate, sounds and rhythms that aid us in the calming of our minds.

Communion with God requires a clear and calm mind.

Soooo. It's Yoga For Christians. Got it.

Yoga? Is English a second language for you? Interesting.

Go enjoy some fruit and have a good night.

Yeah. Yoga. Go check it out, and see how it applies to the superficial explanation of prayer that you offered.

 

[Czernobog]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

Ok, I admit it --- I am weak. I will ask Him to make it all better, to help me avoid the consequences of my actions, but that is a cry of anguish, rather than supplication. What I really want is reassurance of His presence, his support. I know I must be held accountable, but I want to be reassured of His love.

That is specifically not the kind of prayer I was asking about, and you know it. Why do all of you Christians suddenly act like you are completely unaware of Christians praying for things - healing, guidance during surgery, money, jobs, etc. - whenever you are asked a direct question about its efficacy?

Actually, you posited two specific instances of prayer - neither of which were venal and self-serving.

I responded in kind ... but you will also notice that I recognized my faults, my weakness, as well as an admission that I know that type of prayer won't work - that, no matter what, I will reap the rewards of my actions. The last paragraph of my last post addresses your attempt to move the goal posts. Do I ask God for a new car? Maybe --- but I'm pretty damn sure I won't go outside and find one in my driveway. It just don't work that way.

Now, if God were to choose to give me a sign - and a new Lexus - I wouldn't be upset.

yeah...you'll notice I didn't include "Gimme a new pony" as an example. So, it is your premise that any Christian who asks for healing for a friend, parishioner, acquaintance, or assistance in finding employment, or guidance of surgeons in a surgery are being "venal, and self-serving"? Interesting. I know a lot of evangelical denominations that would, rather vociferously, disagree with you.

 

[Czernobog]

But, would you expect to wake up the next morning with the intestinal problem magically cured?

No. I expected to wake up to the reality that the problem would run its course. What surprised people was how upbeat I was considering the current situation and the regimen I would need to follow. Did that assist in healing that went without hitch? Your call.

And, no, I don't believe God magically made me cheerful. What I do believe is that God knows what helps the human psyche. i.e. Be careful of your thoughts... Prayer taps into the unconscious.

What is in your unconscious?

So, you don't think God heals through prayer, but you think God heals through prayer...

Yeah...that's not at all contradictory...

 

[Spare_change]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

Ok, I admit it --- I am weak. I will ask Him to make it all better, to help me avoid the consequences of my actions, but that is a cry of anguish, rather than supplication. What I really want is reassurance of His presence, his support. I know I must be held accountable, but I want to be reassured of His love.

"you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers."

Now this is why you deserve ridicule. Being dictated a bunch of authoritative statements (that are really just your opinions) is not "teaching", it's dogma-vomiting.

You can't teach this garbage, because there is nothing to "teach". I could get 100 of you religious goofballs in a room together, and I would get 100 different opinions on and versions of the nonsense you just spouted. In fact, you can watch that phenomenon happen right here in this thread.

If you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions.

Instead, you are just vomiting a stream of your own fetishes, opinions, and neuroses. That's not "teaching", and it certainly is not anything resembling "knowledge".

As a former adjunct professor at the University of Southern California, in engineering, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of engineering principles.

Now, that you're done with your nonsensical tirade, are you going to go away and let the adults talk?

What does you knowing engineering principles have to do with anything I said? Nothing, that's what. You religious conmen all use the same, tired playbook.

... and I quote from your previous post:

"f you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions"

You don't even realize what you post .... I wonder why we waste our time with the likes of you.

 

[Czernobog]

People pray because it helps them, Czernobog. It has nothing to do with our beliefs.

Yeah...get that from a fortune cookie? Cuz it's about as useful as an answer... You might just as well say "We pray because it makes us feel good,"

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

Ok, I admit it --- I am weak. I will ask Him to make it all better, to help me avoid the consequences of my actions, but that is a cry of anguish, rather than supplication. What I really want is reassurance of His presence, his support. I know I must be held accountable, but I want to be reassured of His love.

"you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers."

Now this is why you deserve ridicule. Being dictated a bunch of authoritative statements (that are really just your opinions) is not "teaching", it's dogma-vomiting.

You can't teach this garbage, because there is nothing to "teach". I could get 100 of you religious goofballs in a room together, and I would get 100 different opinions on and versions of the nonsense you just spouted. In fact, you can watch that phenomenon happen right here in this thread.

If you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions.

Instead, you are just vomiting a stream of your own fetishes, opinions, and neuroses. That's not "teaching", and it certainly is not anything resembling "knowledge".

As a former adjunct professor at the University of Southern California, in engineering, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of engineering principles.

Now, that you're done with your nonsensical tirade, are you going to go away and let the adults talk?

What does you knowing engineering principles have to do with anything I said? Nothing, that's what. You religious conmen all use the same, tired playbook.

... and I quote from your previous post:

"f you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions"

You don't even realize what you post .... I wonder why we waste our time with the likes of you.

But those things I said are true, no matter what your background is. Stating your background does not speak to a word I said, and it is not an appriopriate response. In fact, it's mindless and vapid, and it is merely you wanting to dodge my point while still putting words on your screen for you to preen and fawn over.

My point was that you are teaching nothing, and you have nothing to teach. You are merely vomiting a stream of your fetishes, opinions, and neuroses, and then, by some imagined, "divine" authority, fooling yourself into believing that these steaming piles of shit represent facts or knowledge.

 

[Spare_change]

This is a serious question for theists. What does prayer accomplish. Now, keep in mind I am not talking about the ritualistic prayer one finds during most church services: "Our Father, who art in heaven, blah, blah, blah,". Although, I would submit that I have never understood that practice as it seems to fly in the face of Jesus' own commands about prayer - "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Mat. 5:6 But that's a discussion for another time. No, I'm referring to "the prayers of healing", and "intercession".

I seem to hear two different schools of thought on this, and neither makes sense to me:

School one: Prayer is exactly what it seems to be; attempts to plead with God to intercede on behalf of the person being prayed for. "Please guide the hands of the surgeons, be with the nurses during the surgery..." etc. First, do the people who engage in this type of prayer really think that God is listening, specifically to them? Like God doesn't have anything more important to do, today, other than listen in for Kay's personal requests?

Second, are people so arrogant as to believe that they are important enough to interfere with "God's Will"? As if God had no intention of making sure the surgery was going to go well, until after Kay bothered him about it? Really??

I mean, I have many, many more problems with this school of thought, but we'll start there.

Now, the second school of thought, that I just began hearing recently is that prayer isn't about accomplishing anything at all. Rather it's just about "touching in" with God. It's about letting him know we know that everything is in his hands, and whatever happens, we're cool with it.

Couple of things. First, do we really think that we are important enough that God gives so much as a single fuck about what we're "cool with"?!?! Are we really so arrogant that we think God is just waiting for our call (prayer) affirming that we know what he knows we already know? Really?!?!

Second, really? We're cool with it? So, when God put that buck in the middle of the road, causing us to flip over in the care, and our wife is now on life support, barely hanging on by a thread, we're cool with that?!?! Really? Cuz I gotta tell you, I'm not cool with it. I'm fucking pissed!!!

Since neither of these schools of thought really make sense to me, could someone please explain the point of prayer?

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

Ok, I admit it --- I am weak. I will ask Him to make it all better, to help me avoid the consequences of my actions, but that is a cry of anguish, rather than supplication. What I really want is reassurance of His presence, his support. I know I must be held accountable, but I want to be reassured of His love.

That is specifically not the kind of prayer I was asking about, and you know it. Why do all of you Christians suddenly act like you are completely unaware of Christians praying for things - healing, guidance during surgery, money, jobs, etc. - whenever you are asked a direct question about its efficacy?

Actually, you posited two specific instances of prayer - neither of which were venal and self-serving.

I responded in kind ... but you will also notice that I recognized my faults, my weakness, as well as an admission that I know that type of prayer won't work - that, no matter what, I will reap the rewards of my actions. The last paragraph of my last post addresses your attempt to move the goal posts. Do I ask God for a new car? Maybe --- but I'm pretty damn sure I won't go outside and find one in my driveway. It just don't work that way.

Now, if God were to choose to give me a sign - and a new Lexus - I wouldn't be upset.

yeah...you'll notice I didn't include "Gimme a new pony" as an example. So, it is your premise that any Christian who asks for healing for a friend, parishioner, acquaintance, or assistance in finding employment, or guidance of surgeons in a surgery are being "venal, and self-serving"? Interesting. I know a lot of evangelical denominations that would, rather vociferously, disagree with you.

No --- that's not what I said ---- though, nice try at perverting the written word.

I said that those of us who pray do so with the knowledge that what happens is a result of our exercise of free will --- and that asking for assistance, whether for ourselves or for others, may, or may not, as God deems, be answered. But, it never hurts to ask. Who knows? Maybe a miracle will happen --- nothing wrong for asking for one.

 

[Spare_change]

Once again, you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers.

God granted his followers free will --- He explained the path to righteousness, but he left to decision to walk it to the individual. He made it abundantly clear what were the consequences of our choices. Some do - some don't.

I know that what happens to me is a consequence of MY actions, not a grand plan by God. I pray to God, in times of peril, not because I want Him to vacate my consequences, but because I want Him to understand that, no matter what happens as a result of my choices, I am still His servant.

Ok, I admit it --- I am weak. I will ask Him to make it all better, to help me avoid the consequences of my actions, but that is a cry of anguish, rather than supplication. What I really want is reassurance of His presence, his support. I know I must be held accountable, but I want to be reassured of His love.

"you demonstrate a complete ignorance, and an apparent unwillingness to learn, about the true relationship between God and his followers."

Now this is why you deserve ridicule. Being dictated a bunch of authoritative statements (that are really just your opinions) is not "teaching", it's dogma-vomiting.

You can't teach this garbage, because there is nothing to "teach". I could get 100 of you religious goofballs in a room together, and I would get 100 different opinions on and versions of the nonsense you just spouted. In fact, you can watch that phenomenon happen right here in this thread.

If you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions.

Instead, you are just vomiting a stream of your own fetishes, opinions, and neuroses. That's not "teaching", and it certainly is not anything resembling "knowledge".

As a former adjunct professor at the University of Southern California, in engineering, I'm pretty sure I'm aware of engineering principles.

Now, that you're done with your nonsensical tirade, are you going to go away and let the adults talk?

What does you knowing engineering principles have to do with anything I said? Nothing, that's what. You religious conmen all use the same, tired playbook.

... and I quote from your previous post:

"f you were to teach a student physics, you would teach math and proofs, then theories laws. Then you would demonstrate how they were applied, and they would produce the same results, every time. These laws and theories would be the same for everyone, everywhere. Two students from opposite sides of the world who had been taught physics would produce the same answers to the same physics questions"

You don't even realize what you post .... I wonder why we waste our time with the likes of you.

But those thongs are true, no matter what your background is. Stating your background does not speak to a word I said, and is not an appriopriate response. In fact, it's mindless and vapid, and is merely you wanting to dodge my point while still putting words on your screen for you to green amd fawn over.

You don't have a point - have never had a point - and wouldn't recognize a point if someone poked you with it.

You personify "mindless blather".

 

[Meriweather]

So, you don't think God heals through prayer, but you think God heals through prayer...

What I think is that you don't understand. At least I see no evidence of understanding. Perhaps prayer is something one needs to practice in order to achieve a better understanding of what it is--and what it is not.