What is the cause of kids commiting mass shootings in school ?

[boedicca]

If the standard is to not steal and I convince you to steal, and you get caught stealing and go to jail. Am I the root cause of you going to jail or is the root cause of you going to jail the fact that you were caught stealing (i.e. violating the standard)?

What does what you just described have to do with lowering standards?

If the standard is to not steal and SHE personally breaks that standard she has in effect lowered the standard for herself. And if she gets away with it, which is what usually happens, and continues to do it over and over again, then she will have normalized her deviance to the standard and eventually it will lead to the predictable surprise of getting caught and going to jail.

Are you guys always this argumentative?

First you have to establish that not stealing is the standard and why it is the standard. It actually is an American law and can be traced back to JudeoChristian roots of "Thou shalt not steal." And you have to consider what stealing actually is.

But stealing is either nihilism--it isn't of any importance or it means nothing--or it is moral relativism, i.e. I want and/or need that and I don't want to work for it and buy it so I will just take it which is good for me and that makes it a good thing to do. And it is also nihilistic in that it doesn't matter if it is bad for somebody else.

And yes, I am always argumentative in a thread intended to inspire critical thinking and thoughtful consideration of what dynamics are at play in a given situation.

No, you are practicing critical theory, my dear. Critical thinking is when you challenge what you believe to test its validity. What you are doing is the cultural marxist practice of critical theory.

Did you really just say I have to establish that stealing is wrong?

Yup. You do. Not only that stealing is wrong but WHY it is wrong. Otherwise there is no justification for a rule or law against stealing.

The American Indians, for instance, had no legal or moral concept in their culture against stealing. They were not to steal from each other because they needed peace and harmony within their own tribe. But stealing from those outside their tribe? That was not only moral but was expected.

FF - I think you'll appreciate this piece:

What I Learned in the Peace Corps in Africa: Trump Is Right

 

[ding]

Blah blah blah so sleepy....zzzzzz

I don't have to explain my real life to some anonymous jerk on an obscure message board who lacks the intellectual honesty to attribute sources for his copy/paste quotes and who continuously posts symptoms instead of causes despite his self-claimed expertise in analysis.

^ she mad

No, bored. And that is worse.

I'm having a pretty good time.

 

[Foxfyre]

Maybe but I saw it as a deflection and completely changing the subject. That's something the progressives do all the time. I don't expect it for somebody who claims to be right of center.

Says the person who just told me to ditch this:

Socialism intentionally denies examination because it is irrational. There is no formal defined dogma of socialism. Instead there is only a vague, rosy notion of something good, noble and just: the advent of these things will bring instant euphoria and a social order beyond reproach. Socialism seeks equality through uniformity and communal ownership Socialism has an extraordinary ability to incite and inflame its adherents and inspire social movements. Socialists dismiss their defeats and ignore their incongruities. They desire big government and use big government to implement their morally relativistic social policies. Socialism is a religion. The religious nature of socialism explains their hostility towards traditional religions which is that of one rival religion over another. Their dogma is based on materialism, primitive instincts, atheism and the deification of man. They see no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure. They practice moral relativity, indiscriminate indiscriminateness, multiculturalism, cultural Marxism and normalization of deviance. They worship science but are the first to reject it when it suits their purposes. They can be identified by an external locus of control. Their religious doctrine is abolition of private property, abolition of family, abolition of religion and equality via uniformity and communal ownership. They practice critical theory which is the Cultural Marxist theory to criticize what they do not believe to arrive at what they do believe without ever having to examine what they believe. They confuse critical theory for critical thinking. Critical thinking is the practice of challenging what one does believe to test its validity. Something they never do.

I told you to ditch it if it assumes Boedicca is doing anything other than competently discussing the topic. I still haven't read that huge mass of grey text and frankly probably never will. But consider the last sentence:
"Critical thinking is the practice of challenging what one does believe to test its validity. Something they never do."

But when we do it, you take exception to that and call it argumentative. Why is that?

We actually are probably close to being on the same page on this topic, but I won't agree that nihilism and moral relativity are not legitimate factors and probably are the most important factors in why kids are committing mass murders in school. Boedicca just condensed the dynamics involved into their basic components more efficiently than I did.

As a civil engineer, you should have been trained to write in ways that others can comprehend and understand your intent, purpose, and meaning. Vagueness has no place in engineering, nor does disjointed instruction that leaves the reader confused as to what you intended.

Says the person who literally said I needed to convince her that stealing is wrong.

First you have to establish that not stealing is the standard and why it is the standard.

If you don't understand the concept of basis for the law, I can't help you. Sorry. I have some problem believing that you were trained and certified as an engineer. I know a LOT of engineers and not one of them is that irrational or convoluted in arguing anything. But who knows. Maybe you are the exception?

I do think you need to review the concepts in your siggie, especially the last sentence, and understand what it is you are actually saying there.

 

[Foxfyre]

What does what you just described have to do with lowering standards?

If the standard is to not steal and SHE personally breaks that standard she has in effect lowered the standard for herself. And if she gets away with it, which is what usually happens, and continues to do it over and over again, then she will have normalized her deviance to the standard and eventually it will lead to the predictable surprise of getting caught and going to jail.

Are you guys always this argumentative?

First you have to establish that not stealing is the standard and why it is the standard. It actually is an American law and can be traced back to JudeoChristian roots of "Thou shalt not steal." And you have to consider what stealing actually is.

But stealing is either nihilism--it isn't of any importance or it means nothing--or it is moral relativism, i.e. I want and/or need that and I don't want to work for it and buy it so I will just take it which is good for me and that makes it a good thing to do. And it is also nihilistic in that it doesn't matter if it is bad for somebody else.

And yes, I am always argumentative in a thread intended to inspire critical thinking and thoughtful consideration of what dynamics are at play in a given situation.

No, you are practicing critical theory, my dear. Critical thinking is when you challenge what you believe to test its validity. What you are doing is the cultural marxist practice of critical theory.

Did you really just say I have to establish that stealing is wrong?

Yup. You do. Not only that stealing is wrong but WHY it is wrong. Otherwise there is no justification for a rule or law against stealing.

The American Indians, for instance, had no concept in their culture against stealing. They were not to steal from each other because they needed peace and harmony within their own tribe. But stealing from those outside their tribe? That was not only moral but was expected.

I am more than happy for you to believe that stealing is OK though.

I love it when people experience their own predictable surprises.

And now I no longer believe that you believe a single word of your sig line and/or anything you have said thus far.

Note: One favorite trick of the militant left is to put words in people's mouths they didn't say, thoughts in their head they didn't think, beliefs in their heart they don't believe and thus try to derail the conversation.

Nice try. It doesn't work with me.

Now if you cannot explain, much less defend your own statements re why kids are doing these mass killings, I will wish you a pleasant afternoon and evening and spend my efforts with those who are interested in the topic.

 

[Desperado]

A lack of respect and a lack of discipline in schools today

 

[Foxfyre]

What does what you just described have to do with lowering standards?

If the standard is to not steal and SHE personally breaks that standard she has in effect lowered the standard for herself. And if she gets away with it, which is what usually happens, and continues to do it over and over again, then she will have normalized her deviance to the standard and eventually it will lead to the predictable surprise of getting caught and going to jail.

Are you guys always this argumentative?

First you have to establish that not stealing is the standard and why it is the standard. It actually is an American law and can be traced back to JudeoChristian roots of "Thou shalt not steal." And you have to consider what stealing actually is.

But stealing is either nihilism--it isn't of any importance or it means nothing--or it is moral relativism, i.e. I want and/or need that and I don't want to work for it and buy it so I will just take it which is good for me and that makes it a good thing to do. And it is also nihilistic in that it doesn't matter if it is bad for somebody else.

And yes, I am always argumentative in a thread intended to inspire critical thinking and thoughtful consideration of what dynamics are at play in a given situation.

No, you are practicing critical theory, my dear. Critical thinking is when you challenge what you believe to test its validity. What you are doing is the cultural marxist practice of critical theory.

Did you really just say I have to establish that stealing is wrong?

Yup. You do. Not only that stealing is wrong but WHY it is wrong. Otherwise there is no justification for a rule or law against stealing.

The American Indians, for instance, had no legal or moral concept in their culture against stealing. They were not to steal from each other because they needed peace and harmony within their own tribe. But stealing from those outside their tribe? That was not only moral but was expected.

FF - I think you'll appreciate this piece:

What I Learned in the Peace Corps in Africa: Trump Is Right

Yes. A provocative piece and thank you. All too familiar with me as I know many who have worked among the world's poorest people. Some who still do. Where Christianity and sometimes the better side of Buddhism has taken hold, it is better. Still abject poverty but conscience and respect for life are present and that makes all the difference. It isn't America. But it is better.

What I see happening is the removal of conscience and respect for the individual being systematically destroyed in our American culture. As expression of religious faith and individual identity is more and more suppressed, those aspects of nihilism and moral relativism you cited earlier are becoming more and more obvious in all aspects of our culture that makes America the great nation that it is.

And that in turn I believe is a huge factor in what is providing incentive and is provoking the criminally inclined to do these horrendous bad acts. We sure don't want to import or encourage more people who will accelerate that trend regardless of who calls us 'racist' if we don't.

 

[boedicca]

If the standard is to not steal and SHE personally breaks that standard she has in effect lowered the standard for herself. And if she gets away with it, which is what usually happens, and continues to do it over and over again, then she will have normalized her deviance to the standard and eventually it will lead to the predictable surprise of getting caught and going to jail.

Are you guys always this argumentative?

First you have to establish that not stealing is the standard and why it is the standard. It actually is an American law and can be traced back to JudeoChristian roots of "Thou shalt not steal." And you have to consider what stealing actually is.

But stealing is either nihilism--it isn't of any importance or it means nothing--or it is moral relativism, i.e. I want and/or need that and I don't want to work for it and buy it so I will just take it which is good for me and that makes it a good thing to do. And it is also nihilistic in that it doesn't matter if it is bad for somebody else.

And yes, I am always argumentative in a thread intended to inspire critical thinking and thoughtful consideration of what dynamics are at play in a given situation.

No, you are practicing critical theory, my dear. Critical thinking is when you challenge what you believe to test its validity. What you are doing is the cultural marxist practice of critical theory.

Did you really just say I have to establish that stealing is wrong?

Yup. You do. Not only that stealing is wrong but WHY it is wrong. Otherwise there is no justification for a rule or law against stealing.

The American Indians, for instance, had no legal or moral concept in their culture against stealing. They were not to steal from each other because they needed peace and harmony within their own tribe. But stealing from those outside their tribe? That was not only moral but was expected.

FF - I think you'll appreciate this piece:

What I Learned in the Peace Corps in Africa: Trump Is Right

Yes. A provocative piece and thank you. All too familiar with me as I know many who have worked among the world's poorest people. Some who still do. Where Christianity and sometimes the better side of Buddhism has taken hold, it is better. Still abject poverty but conscience and respect for life are present and that makes all the difference. It isn't America. But it is better.

What I see happening is the removal of conscience and respect for the individual being systematically destroyed in our American culture. As expression of religious faith and individual identity is more and more suppressed, those aspects of nihilism and moral relativism you cited early are becoming more and more obvious in all aspects of our culture that makes America the great nation that it is.

And that in turn I believe is a huge factor in what is providing incentive and is provoking the criminally inclined to do these horrendous bad acts.

Well said.

Western Civilization, based on Judeo-Christian-Greek philosophical roots, has been the most successful at liberating individuals, improving their material conditions, and increasing longevity. These are not coincidences. Throughout much of history, the status of the vast majority of people was slave, serf or indentured servant. Those who are trying to destroy Western Civ are intent on returning us to the state of slavery.

 

[Foxfyre]

First you have to establish that not stealing is the standard and why it is the standard. It actually is an American law and can be traced back to JudeoChristian roots of "Thou shalt not steal." And you have to consider what stealing actually is.

But stealing is either nihilism--it isn't of any importance or it means nothing--or it is moral relativism, i.e. I want and/or need that and I don't want to work for it and buy it so I will just take it which is good for me and that makes it a good thing to do. And it is also nihilistic in that it doesn't matter if it is bad for somebody else.

And yes, I am always argumentative in a thread intended to inspire critical thinking and thoughtful consideration of what dynamics are at play in a given situation.

No, you are practicing critical theory, my dear. Critical thinking is when you challenge what you believe to test its validity. What you are doing is the cultural marxist practice of critical theory.

Did you really just say I have to establish that stealing is wrong?

Yup. You do. Not only that stealing is wrong but WHY it is wrong. Otherwise there is no justification for a rule or law against stealing.

The American Indians, for instance, had no legal or moral concept in their culture against stealing. They were not to steal from each other because they needed peace and harmony within their own tribe. But stealing from those outside their tribe? That was not only moral but was expected.

FF - I think you'll appreciate this piece:

What I Learned in the Peace Corps in Africa: Trump Is Right

Yes. A provocative piece and thank you. All too familiar with me as I know many who have worked among the world's poorest people. Some who still do. Where Christianity and sometimes the better side of Buddhism has taken hold, it is better. Still abject poverty but conscience and respect for life are present and that makes all the difference. It isn't America. But it is better.

What I see happening is the removal of conscience and respect for the individual being systematically destroyed in our American culture. As expression of religious faith and individual identity is more and more suppressed, those aspects of nihilism and moral relativism you cited early are becoming more and more obvious in all aspects of our culture that makes America the great nation that it is.

And that in turn I believe is a huge factor in what is providing incentive and is provoking the criminally inclined to do these horrendous bad acts.

Well said.

Western Civilization, based on Judeo-Christian-Greek philosophical roots, has been the most successful at liberating individuals, improving their material conditions, and increasing longevity. These are not coincidences. Throughout much of history, the status of the vast majority of people was slave, serf or indentured servant. Those who are trying to destroy Western Civ are intent on returning us to the state of slavery.

And they probably are less upset at the school shootings than they are eager to capitalize on them to hurry up that process. Of course the number one goal is to disarm us as that will make us much more unlikely to protest once their ambitions become obvious to all.

You responded before I edited to add the last line in my previous post:
"We sure don't want to import or encourage more people who will accelerate that trend regardless of who calls us 'racist' if we don't."

 

[hunarcy]

40 years ago guns were mainly used for hunting and therefore people used them to hunt.

Guns today are mainly offshoots of military weapons designed to kill people

People are using them as intended.

Well, you seem to be very proud of your brand of stupid. The fact is that the common "hunting rifle" you reference was a fine sniper rifle as Charles Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald demonstrated.

 

[otto105]

40 years ago guns were mainly used for hunting and therefore people used them to hunt.

Guns today are mainly offshoots of military weapons designed to kill people

People are using them as intended.

Well, you seem to be very proud of your brand of stupid. The fact is that the common "hunting rifle" you reference was a fine sniper rifle as Charles Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald demonstrated.

Yeah, sure.

What hunting gun did I specify?

 

[hunarcy]

40 years ago guns were mainly used for hunting and therefore people used them to hunt.

Guns today are mainly offshoots of military weapons designed to kill people

People are using them as intended.

Well, you seem to be very proud of your brand of stupid. The fact is that the common "hunting rifle" you reference was a fine sniper rifle as Charles Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald demonstrated.

Yeah, sure.

What hunting gun did I specify?

THAT'S what you focused on? You truly are stupid. Enjoy life being ignored.

 

[ding]

...What I see happening is the removal of conscience and respect for the individual being systematically destroyed in our American culture. As expression of religious faith and individual identity is more and more suppressed, those aspects of nihilism and moral relativism you cited earlier are becoming more and more obvious in all aspects of our culture that makes America the great nation that it is.

And that in turn I believe is a huge factor in what is providing incentive and is provoking the criminally inclined to do these horrendous bad acts. We sure don't want to import or encourage more people who will accelerate that trend regardless of who calls us 'racist' if we don't.

Sounds like you are describing a lowering of moral standards to me.

 

[ding]

If the standard is to not steal and SHE personally breaks that standard she has in effect lowered the standard for herself. And if she gets away with it, which is what usually happens, and continues to do it over and over again, then she will have normalized her deviance to the standard and eventually it will lead to the predictable surprise of getting caught and going to jail.

Are you guys always this argumentative?

First you have to establish that not stealing is the standard and why it is the standard. It actually is an American law and can be traced back to JudeoChristian roots of "Thou shalt not steal." And you have to consider what stealing actually is.

But stealing is either nihilism--it isn't of any importance or it means nothing--or it is moral relativism, i.e. I want and/or need that and I don't want to work for it and buy it so I will just take it which is good for me and that makes it a good thing to do. And it is also nihilistic in that it doesn't matter if it is bad for somebody else.

And yes, I am always argumentative in a thread intended to inspire critical thinking and thoughtful consideration of what dynamics are at play in a given situation.

No, you are practicing critical theory, my dear. Critical thinking is when you challenge what you believe to test its validity. What you are doing is the cultural marxist practice of critical theory.

Did you really just say I have to establish that stealing is wrong?

Yup. You do. Not only that stealing is wrong but WHY it is wrong. Otherwise there is no justification for a rule or law against stealing.

The American Indians, for instance, had no concept in their culture against stealing. They were not to steal from each other because they needed peace and harmony within their own tribe. But stealing from those outside their tribe? That was not only moral but was expected.

I am more than happy for you to believe that stealing is OK though.

I love it when people experience their own predictable surprises.

And now I no longer believe that you believe a single word of your sig line and/or anything you have said thus far.

Note: One favorite trick of the militant left is to put words in people's mouths they didn't say, thoughts in their head they didn't think, beliefs in their heart they don't believe and thus try to derail the conversation.

Nice try. It doesn't work with me.

Now if you cannot explain, much less defend your own statements re why kids are doing these mass killings, I will wish you a pleasant afternoon and evening and spend my efforts with those who are interested in the topic.

Bless your heart.

I did explain it, at least three times. They are predictable surprises of us - as in our society - of lowering our moral standards.

 

[BS Filter]

The good thing about Catholic and Protestant brainwashing is that it gives you fear of infinite punishment for evil deeds.

The bad thing about Catholic and Protestant brainwashing is that like any other brainwashing it deprives people of reasoning and choice.

The first thing to get past is the notion of "brainwashing" so that we are able to focus on what is effective and what is not effective in teaching Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Atheism, etcetera. Children are not being "brainwashed" but how effectively are they being taught? It is not even effective enough to rise to the level of brainwashing.

Part of the reason for this in Christianity is because Protestants are so focused on the afterlife, that it seems (to someone who is not Protestant) that this life takes second place. Students cannot just read stories like Noah's Ark; they need someone to teach them the universal lessons inherent to all of mankind that are contained in Noah's Ark. Children are not going to see these lessons in the story unless they are specifically pointed out. "God flooded the entire planet" is not one of those lessons--it entirely misses the point of the story and the lessons about the flood. That is ineffective teaching.

Brainwashing is brainwashing.

Part of the reason that the ancient Greeks invented Philosophy was to overcome their superstitions and brainwashed religion.

So you are now advocating more religion ?? That is just more brainwashing.

Knowledge of the Creator and morals isn't religion or brainwashing. It's teaching kids to be respectful and mannerly.

 

[Flopper]

I don't want to talk politics or guns on this subject because guns have been around for hundreds of yrs and politics even longer ......when I was in high school kids would drive to school with rifles and shot guns hanging on gun racks and you never heard about someone getting shot much less dozens being injured or killed ......so instead of arguing over the weapons used or not used in these mass killings I would like opinions on what motivates todays kids to commit acts of evil that was unheard of 30yrs ago ? what has changed ? what is different about the way kids think today ?

In 26 of the 27 deadliest mass shooters in American history, the shooter came from homes in which the biological father was not present.

Coincidence? Maybe. But that is a stunning statistics.

And there are other critical factors at play. My short list:

--kids need a responsible mom and a dad in the home. Very very few criminals or violent people of any sort come from such homes.

--kids benefit from a religious faith that teaches love, respect for life and authority, caring from others. Good churches and synagogues aren't producing many criminals.

--kids need role models that demonstrate some of the best to which we can aspire instead of heaping admiration and fame, making heroes out of, or generating sympathy for those who promote hate, anger, violence, and lawless behavior.

--kids need to be taught personal responsibility and accountability in which the norm is educating yourself, staying away from illegal substances and activities, meriting a good reputation, learning a trade, getting married before having kids, and contributing to your family, your community, your country. Such people are rarely involved in any kind of bad acts.

--kids need video games, television programs, and movies that promote real heroism, good triumphing over evil, and rejection of violence except in self defense. When video games have the player having to do bad, even evil things to win, how can that not translate how they relate to their real world? When what passes for entertainment on television and in the movies promotes the worst kind of violence, promiscuity, immorality, and sympathy for the bad guys, it is no wonder that children become desensitized to violence or the pain of others and see bad acts as glorious acts. It all is teaching the kids and it is invariable that some of them will be motivated to act on it.

Maybe correlation isn't causation when it comes to kids being violent, but I sure think we need to look at what our culture has become and what we are teaching and demonstrating and how that contributes to the social problems we have.

I agree on all points as to what is needed. However, I think the changes you are addressing are generational changes that can take decades. You can not expect children to be responsibility when their parents are irresponsible. IMHO, the first step is to convince young couples that having children is a huge responsibility, requiring almost endless sacrifices. Not all couples are suitable parents and when they recognize it and decide not to have children, they should be praised by family and friends for making the right decision. Starting a family when you are not prepared to raise children properly is one of the worst problems we face in society.

I can't argue with that, but we have to start somewhere to fix the problem. For sure we didn't get into our current cultural mess in just a few years--it has taken decades of fuzzy, convoluted, and/or selfish thinking and philosophy infiltrated in government, into education, into science, into media plus dedicated efforts of the politically and socially ambitious to divide us so they could conquer us to arrive at the mess we are in. So it will take at least a generation of right thinking and values to correct most of it.

Standing in the way of even beginning are way too many people who refuse to even consider that screwing up and/or corrupting our culture is the primary problem. They are focused entirely on blaming a political party or prominent personalities, blaming guns, blaming an ideology, blaming our past, blaming anything and everything other than themselves and/or that/those that they support, and/or what they want to believe it true.

Although our society has it's problems, it is one of the best in world. I've lived in Europe, traveled throughout the Far East and spent some time in both Africa and the Middle East. As far as I am concerned, there is no society that even comes close to America. This is why so many people want to come here.

At first look American society might appears to be violent, immoral, and dominated by the worst possible people but this is merely because people focus in on the worst. The news media magnifies all that is wrong with society and focuses very little on what is right with society. If you actually look at the people around you in the country you can clearly see that most people are honest hard-working people, regardless of there political preferences, income, or race. They try to raise decent responsible kids, hate not being able to support them, and are generous to a fault. However, it's the failures that make the news and create false impressions of the country.

Compared to other societies, Americans are the most self-critical people on earth. We tear apart everything and are never satisfied.

We Americans are violent.

But we are not alone in that.

Russians are violent too.

We each protect our way of life and this sometimes requires violence.

America protects freedom and democracy.

Russia protects Russia.

The rest of the world including the PRC are all wimps. Ergo the rest of the world is less violent than America and Russia.

Not being violent does not make you a wimp. I doubt anyone would call, Mahatma Gandhi, Chief Joseph, Oskar Schindler, Rosa Parks, Nelson Mandela, or Martin Luther King a wimp.

Courage has never been synonymous with violence except in the minds of idiots. One of our greatest war heroes carried a bible but never a gun.
The Unique Story Of The World War II Hero Who Won A Medal Of Honour Without Firing A Gun

 

[Flopper]

In 26 of the 27 deadliest mass shooters in American history, the shooter came from homes in which the biological father was not present.

Coincidence? Maybe. But that is a stunning statistics.

And there are other critical factors at play. My short list:

--kids need a responsible mom and a dad in the home. Very very few criminals or violent people of any sort come from such homes.

--kids benefit from a religious faith that teaches love, respect for life and authority, caring from others. Good churches and synagogues aren't producing many criminals.

--kids need role models that demonstrate some of the best to which we can aspire instead of heaping admiration and fame, making heroes out of, or generating sympathy for those who promote hate, anger, violence, and lawless behavior.

--kids need to be taught personal responsibility and accountability in which the norm is educating yourself, staying away from illegal substances and activities, meriting a good reputation, learning a trade, getting married before having kids, and contributing to your family, your community, your country. Such people are rarely involved in any kind of bad acts.

--kids need video games, television programs, and movies that promote real heroism, good triumphing over evil, and rejection of violence except in self defense. When video games have the player having to do bad, even evil things to win, how can that not translate how they relate to their real world? When what passes for entertainment on television and in the movies promotes the worst kind of violence, promiscuity, immorality, and sympathy for the bad guys, it is no wonder that children become desensitized to violence or the pain of others and see bad acts as glorious acts. It all is teaching the kids and it is invariable that some of them will be motivated to act on it.

Maybe correlation isn't causation when it comes to kids being violent, but I sure think we need to look at what our culture has become and what we are teaching and demonstrating and how that contributes to the social problems we have.

I agree on all points as to what is needed. However, I think the changes you are addressing are generational changes that can take decades. You can not expect children to be responsibility when their parents are irresponsible. IMHO, the first step is to convince young couples that having children is a huge responsibility, requiring almost endless sacrifices. Not all couples are suitable parents and when they recognize it and decide not to have children, they should be praised by family and friends for making the right decision. Starting a family when you are not prepared to raise children properly is one of the worst problems we face in society.

I can't argue with that, but we have to start somewhere to fix the problem. For sure we didn't get into our current cultural mess in just a few years--it has taken decades of fuzzy, convoluted, and/or selfish thinking and philosophy infiltrated in government, into education, into science, into media plus dedicated efforts of the politically and socially ambitious to divide us so they could conquer us to arrive at the mess we are in. So it will take at least a generation of right thinking and values to correct most of it.

Standing in the way of even beginning are way too many people who refuse to even consider that screwing up and/or corrupting our culture is the primary problem. They are focused entirely on blaming a political party or prominent personalities, blaming guns, blaming an ideology, blaming our past, blaming anything and everything other than themselves and/or that/those that they support, and/or what they want to believe it true.

Although our society has it's problems, it is one of the best in world. I've lived in Europe, traveled throughout the Far East and spent some time in both Africa and the Middle East. As far as I am concerned, there is no society that even comes close to America. This is why so many people want to come here.

At first look American society might appears to be violent, immoral, and dominated by the worst possible people but this is merely because people focus in on the worst. The news media magnifies all that is wrong with society and focuses very little on what is right with society. If you actually look at the people around you in the country you can clearly see that most people are honest hard-working people, regardless of there political preferences, income, or race. They try to raise decent responsible kids, hate not being able to support them, and are generous to a fault. However, it's the failures that make the news and create false impressions of the country.

Compared to other societies, Americans are the most self-critical people on earth. We tear apart everything and are never satisfied.

We Americans are violent.

But we are not alone in that.

Russians are violent too.

We each protect our way of life and this sometimes requires violence.

America protects freedom and democracy.

Russia protects Russia.

The rest of the world including the PRC are all wimps. Ergo the rest of the world is less violent than America and Russia.

When we were promoting freedom and democracy, our schools were pretty much safe for children to be and nobody was shooting them up.

We aren't promoting freedom and democracy so much anymore. We are much more often promoting victimization, restitution for victimization, group think, and rights for special groups instead of individual liberties. The more chaos the better because it provides an excuse for more control over the people. In other words we are becoming more and more like totalitarian governments that control speech/thought/beliefs/what rights the people shall be allowed to have and how people are required to live.

I taught in public school some years ago and have spent a few hours recently in the classroom and have not seen that. What I have seen is a shift from teaching young people social skills, responsible citizenship, and respect for others, to creating skilled workers for the economy. In high school there is less emphasis on American History, Civics, and Philosophy and more emphasis on Math and Science and subjects that we didn't see in public schools such as Economics, Accounting, Technical Writing, English Literature, Digital Arts, Communications, and a number of advanced technology related courses. In elementary school, a much larger part of class time is spent preparing children for a more advanced and demanding high school curriculum.

Throughout U.S. history, Americans have pivoted between whether the central priority of public education should be to create skilled workers for the economy, or to educate young people for responsible citizenship. Both goals are important, of course, but with the recent rise of a global economy, the emphasis has shifted away from preparing citizens and toward serving the needs of the marketplace.

 

[Flopper]

No, you are practicing critical theory, my dear. Critical thinking is when you challenge what you believe to test its validity. What you are doing is the cultural marxist practice of critical theory.

Did you really just say I have to establish that stealing is wrong?

Yup. You do. Not only that stealing is wrong but WHY it is wrong. Otherwise there is no justification for a rule or law against stealing.

The American Indians, for instance, had no legal or moral concept in their culture against stealing. They were not to steal from each other because they needed peace and harmony within their own tribe. But stealing from those outside their tribe? That was not only moral but was expected.

FF - I think you'll appreciate this piece:

What I Learned in the Peace Corps in Africa: Trump Is Right

Yes. A provocative piece and thank you. All too familiar with me as I know many who have worked among the world's poorest people. Some who still do. Where Christianity and sometimes the better side of Buddhism has taken hold, it is better. Still abject poverty but conscience and respect for life are present and that makes all the difference. It isn't America. But it is better.

What I see happening is the removal of conscience and respect for the individual being systematically destroyed in our American culture. As expression of religious faith and individual identity is more and more suppressed, those aspects of nihilism and moral relativism you cited early are becoming more and more obvious in all aspects of our culture that makes America the great nation that it is.

And that in turn I believe is a huge factor in what is providing incentive and is provoking the criminally inclined to do these horrendous bad acts.

Well said.

Western Civilization, based on Judeo-Christian-Greek philosophical roots, has been the most successful at liberating individuals, improving their material conditions, and increasing longevity. These are not coincidences. Throughout much of history, the status of the vast majority of people was slave, serf or indentured servant. Those who are trying to destroy Western Civ are intent on returning us to the state of slavery.

And they probably are less upset at the school shootings than they are eager to capitalize on them to hurry up that process. Of course the number one goal is to disarm us as that will make us much more unlikely to protest once their ambitions become obvious to all.

You responded before I edited to add the last line in my previous post:
"We sure don't want to import or encourage more people who will accelerate that trend regardless of who calls us 'racist' if we don't."

So you would be less likely to protest without a gun? Liberals seem to do pretty well protesting without firearms.

 

[Foxfyre]

I agree on all points as to what is needed. However, I think the changes you are addressing are generational changes that can take decades. You can not expect children to be responsibility when their parents are irresponsible. IMHO, the first step is to convince young couples that having children is a huge responsibility, requiring almost endless sacrifices. Not all couples are suitable parents and when they recognize it and decide not to have children, they should be praised by family and friends for making the right decision. Starting a family when you are not prepared to raise children properly is one of the worst problems we face in society.

I can't argue with that, but we have to start somewhere to fix the problem. For sure we didn't get into our current cultural mess in just a few years--it has taken decades of fuzzy, convoluted, and/or selfish thinking and philosophy infiltrated in government, into education, into science, into media plus dedicated efforts of the politically and socially ambitious to divide us so they could conquer us to arrive at the mess we are in. So it will take at least a generation of right thinking and values to correct most of it.

Standing in the way of even beginning are way too many people who refuse to even consider that screwing up and/or corrupting our culture is the primary problem. They are focused entirely on blaming a political party or prominent personalities, blaming guns, blaming an ideology, blaming our past, blaming anything and everything other than themselves and/or that/those that they support, and/or what they want to believe it true.

Although our society has it's problems, it is one of the best in world. I've lived in Europe, traveled throughout the Far East and spent some time in both Africa and the Middle East. As far as I am concerned, there is no society that even comes close to America. This is why so many people want to come here.

At first look American society might appears to be violent, immoral, and dominated by the worst possible people but this is merely because people focus in on the worst. The news media magnifies all that is wrong with society and focuses very little on what is right with society. If you actually look at the people around you in the country you can clearly see that most people are honest hard-working people, regardless of there political preferences, income, or race. They try to raise decent responsible kids, hate not being able to support them, and are generous to a fault. However, it's the failures that make the news and create false impressions of the country.

Compared to other societies, Americans are the most self-critical people on earth. We tear apart everything and are never satisfied.

We Americans are violent.

But we are not alone in that.

Russians are violent too.

We each protect our way of life and this sometimes requires violence.

America protects freedom and democracy.

Russia protects Russia.

The rest of the world including the PRC are all wimps. Ergo the rest of the world is less violent than America and Russia.

When we were promoting freedom and democracy, our schools were pretty much safe for children to be and nobody was shooting them up.

We aren't promoting freedom and democracy so much anymore. We are much more often promoting victimization, restitution for victimization, group think, and rights for special groups instead of individual liberties. The more chaos the better because it provides an excuse for more control over the people. In other words we are becoming more and more like totalitarian governments that control speech/thought/beliefs/what rights the people shall be allowed to have and how people are required to live.

I taught in public school some years ago and have spent a few hours recently in the classroom and have not seen that. What I have seen is a shift from teaching young people social skills, responsible citizenship, and respect for others, to creating skilled workers for the economy. In high school there is less emphasis on American History, Civics, and Philosophy and more emphasis on Math and Science and subjects that we didn't see in public schools such as Economics, Accounting, Technical Writing, English Literature, Digital Arts, Communications, and a number of advanced technology related courses. In elementary school, a much larger part of class time is spent preparing children for a more advanced and demanding high school curriculum.

Throughout U.S. history, Americans have pivoted between whether the central priority of public education should be to create skilled workers for the economy, or to educate young people for responsible citizenship. Both goals are important, of course, but with the recent rise of a global economy, the emphasis has shifted away from preparing citizens and toward serving the needs of the marketplace.

Maybe. I did some substitute teaching in public schools too and served on a school board. But in more recent times I have been in the position of interviewing and hiring the products of those public schools. I am not finding them more prepared for the needs of the marketplace or to be responsible citizens than the kids were prepared in my generation or that of my children.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yup. You do. Not only that stealing is wrong but WHY it is wrong. Otherwise there is no justification for a rule or law against stealing.

The American Indians, for instance, had no legal or moral concept in their culture against stealing. They were not to steal from each other because they needed peace and harmony within their own tribe. But stealing from those outside their tribe? That was not only moral but was expected.

FF - I think you'll appreciate this piece:

What I Learned in the Peace Corps in Africa: Trump Is Right

Yes. A provocative piece and thank you. All too familiar with me as I know many who have worked among the world's poorest people. Some who still do. Where Christianity and sometimes the better side of Buddhism has taken hold, it is better. Still abject poverty but conscience and respect for life are present and that makes all the difference. It isn't America. But it is better.

What I see happening is the removal of conscience and respect for the individual being systematically destroyed in our American culture. As expression of religious faith and individual identity is more and more suppressed, those aspects of nihilism and moral relativism you cited early are becoming more and more obvious in all aspects of our culture that makes America the great nation that it is.

And that in turn I believe is a huge factor in what is providing incentive and is provoking the criminally inclined to do these horrendous bad acts.

Well said.

Western Civilization, based on Judeo-Christian-Greek philosophical roots, has been the most successful at liberating individuals, improving their material conditions, and increasing longevity. These are not coincidences. Throughout much of history, the status of the vast majority of people was slave, serf or indentured servant. Those who are trying to destroy Western Civ are intent on returning us to the state of slavery.

And they probably are less upset at the school shootings than they are eager to capitalize on them to hurry up that process. Of course the number one goal is to disarm us as that will make us much more unlikely to protest once their ambitions become obvious to all.

You responded before I edited to add the last line in my previous post:
"We sure don't want to import or encourage more people who will accelerate that trend regardless of who calls us 'racist' if we don't."

So you would be less likely to protest without a gun? Liberals seem to do pretty well protesting without firearms.

I was probably too subtle in my post. My point is that once the Constitution is trashed and the people are disarmed, and a totalitarian government is in place, the people are in a much less strong position to protest anything.

 

[onefour1]

In response to the original post. A Lack of moral goodness being taught and practiced by parents, teachers, sports idols, politicians, etc.