What is the goal of capitalism?

[task0778]

Communism is not doing any better in china

The historical record is crystal clear: socialism and communism do not work anywhere near as successfully as capitalism. The ONLY reason why China and Russia are not total economic basketcases is because they employed many capitalist programs and policies that buoyed their otherwise failed ideology. Some combination of soialism and capitalism is possibly successful but you have to tax the crap out of your citizenry like the nordic countries do. So, if anyone believe we can do that here then have at it - let's see what happens when you go to the voters with a plan to tax EVERYBODY with a 25% VAT and an income tax on top of that for every income bracket.

 

[Red Front]

Communism is not doing any better in china

China is only communist in name, not in practice. If you knew the definition of communism, you would know that communism doesn't include markets. Socialism can include markets, but China has privatized so much of its production that it can hardly be called socialist. Western European countries are more socialistic than China.

Since the GOP often identifies AOC and Bernie Sanders as "commies", for promoting progressive policies, that are taken for granted in Western Europe, as normal, then it logically follows, that Western Europe is "commie", or at the very least socialist. Socialism is everywhere and in the not-too-distant future due to advanced automation and artificial intelligence, it will become necessary. Non-profit production or socialism, will eventually become a necessity.

 

[Red Front]

The historical record is crystal clear: socialism and communism do not work anywhere near as successfully as capitalism. The ONLY reason why China and Russia are not total economic basketcases is because they employed many capitalist programs and policies that buoyed their otherwise failed ideology. Some combination of soialism and capitalism is possibly successful but you have to tax the crap out of your citizenry like the nordic countries do. So, if anyone believe we can do that here then have at it - let's see what happens when you go to the voters with a plan to tax EVERYBODY with a 25% VAT and an income tax on top of that for every income bracket.

One can say the opposite. The reason capitalism can function is thanks to socialism, which often subsidizes it and bails it out every few years. Without public funds to maintain capitalism on life support, the economy would collapse every few years, ruining millions of people's lives. There would be social unrest and eventually, this would happen:

Without a robust social safety net for the working class, supported by the government, capitalism can't function.

 

[Red Front]

• 

Reactions:Toddsterpatriot

A nervous laugh, unable to handle the truth.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

• View attachment 802102

Reactions:Toddsterpatriot

A nervous laugh, unable to handle the truth.

The Soviet Union is coming back.....any minute now. DURR

 

[Red Front]

The Soviet Union is coming back.....any minute now. DURR

Communism doesn't equate or amount to the Soviet Union DUH.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Communism doesn't equate or amount to the Soviet Union DUH.

They both failed. They aren't going to start working now.

 

[task0778]

One can say the opposite. The reason capitalism can function is thanks to socialism, which often subsidizes it and bails it out every few years. Without public funds to maintain capitalism on life support, the economy would collapse every few years, ruining millions of people's lives. There would be social unrest and eventually, this would happen:

View attachment 802095​

Without a robust social safety net for the working class, supported by the government, capitalism can't function.

Respectfully disagree. Capitalism can mostly function quite well without socialism, but it does require effective government oversight. Which unfortunately we don't have in this country and neither does/did the USSR or China. I think it is true however that when policies and programs are put in place that helps everybody, such as the interstate highway system, roads and bridges and such, then capitalism flourishes better. But it is by no means going to collapse every few years, that is nonsense.

 

[Arlette]

This is just a philosophical question. Is there a goal for capitalism at all? Is it to maximize personal liberty or production? or is it to maximize well being?

The goal of capitalism is monopoly

 

[Kruska]

This just confirms you need to build up a team and a network of customers.

If one does not have a business idea, the practical knowledge and willingness to work hard - one doesn't get started with an own business in the first place. Unless you are some dude with loads of money from what ever source (to buy over an existing business) - no one starts off with a team - but usually alone or with a partner.
Then you need to work hard to pay for your own life and maybe that of your family - after some time you can accumulate savings in order to expand your one man or two man show business. The last stage in any new business setup and then later due to an expansion of a business will be the setup of a marketing or sales team, in order to get this "network of customers".

Furthermore you need to define "Rich" or "Wealthy" - for most people to start an own business isn't about getting rich, but to be INDEPENDENT and not being an employee.

That before mentioned friend of mine (plumbing business) makes around US$ 15,000/month for himself (the other part goes to his partner and their employees) - if he would be an employee he would make around US5000/month and might have to listen to some silly A-hole boss.

That other friend of mine (car-shop repair maintenance business) makes around US$ 1.500.000 a year for himself. (after 30 years) And he is just as happy as the plumbing friend of mine - because running a company his size - means stress, responsibility and hard work every day and constant reinvestment in order to keep his company on the spot. If not the competition would eat him up. But since he makes a lot more money he doesn't play catch Frisbee with his dog on Sundays - like my plumbing friend, but drives with his Porsche Panamera to a 5 star hotel to play golf - whilst entertaining business partners at the same time. (As such he also works on Sundays).

And during holidays - my plumbing friend either takes his mobile-home and wife for a trip to the mountains or sea - enjoying himself immensely - and also does weekend-trips or short holidays to go on a motorbike cruise with his 1500cc Kawasaki Vulcan and friends. Whilst the other friend spends 2 weeks in Abu Dhabi with his wife staying in a 7 star hotel. And that latter friend is nowhere near as relaxed as the plumbing friend, because he can't just sit around in his company doing nothing and letting other people work for him.

As for a Tik-toker - I can imagine it to be very hard work to get all the crap - Photos, locations, writing and posting it online. How many of these millions of Tik-Tokers get rich?

And for online marketing/selling - it isn't for free either to get a top spot in those online platforms were millions of people advertise. (It's hell of expensive) - so one needs to make money first. That is were the hard work needs to and comes in first.

Obviously the people you and those Commie buggers are always pointing out are NOT business owners - but employees in the higher management hierarchy - e.g the CEO of an OEM - getting his US$ 5-25 million+, regardless of bankrupting the company during his tenure or ensuring it's bankruptcy after he leaves.

As a last - do you know why my plumbing friend can't expand his business?

It's not due to missing marketing or not having a "network of customers" - he simply can't find people that are willing to work hard with their hands for US$ 4000-5000 a month.
They prefer to play property salesman getting US$ 2500-3000 and keeping a white shirt, or sit around at home - collect state welfare + some illegal side income and talk all day long about evil capitalists.

 

[Kruska]

Respectfully disagree. Capitalism can mostly function quite well without socialism, but it does require effective government oversight. Which unfortunately we don't have in this country and neither does/did the USSR or China. I think it is true however that when policies and programs are put in place that helps everybody, such as the interstate highway system, roads and bridges and such, then capitalism flourishes better. But it is by no means going to collapse every few years, that is nonsense.

Respectfully disagree.

After 30 years of wild west capitalism (that any developing country needs to initially progress) - president XI put in the brakes. Planing and demanding an economic system that promotes a "more equal wealth distribution". Social welfare, educational programs and medical welfare are also part of this overall program.
That is also the reason why capitalist circles try to paint him as a supposed Communist. ( I do not want to engage in a political discussion - regarding China, thanks)

 

[Red Front]

They both failed. They aren't going to start working now.

Why not? You can accomplish many things, then in the end fail or suffer defeat. That doesn't imply that you won't win in the future or that conditions won't improve, allowing you to flourish. You're disingenuous and irrational. Why won't communism, ever succeed, even with advanced technology?

 

[Red Front]

Respectfully disagree. Capitalism can mostly function quite well without socialism, but it does require effective government oversight. Which unfortunately we don't have in this country and neither does/did the USSR or China. I think it is true however that when policies and programs are put in place that helps everybody, such as the interstate highway system, roads and bridges and such, then capitalism flourishes better. But it is by no means going to collapse every few years, that is nonsense.

Respectfully disagree. Capitalism can mostly function quite well without socialism, but it does require effective government oversight.

That government "oversight" is plenty of good regulation, law enforcement..etc. All of that costs money and when capitalists are left to their own devices and lust for profits and power, the result is monopolies, cronyism, boom, and bust cycles (i.e. "the business cycle"), requiring the government to save the economy with public funds, a.k.a. "bailouts". You can deny it, but that' the reality.

Why should the American people allow private business owners, a few billionaires to own all of the infrastructure of our country, including its vital resources, utilities..etc? The industries that are vital to our nation's infrastructure, like energy, mining, all of the utilities that we rely on, our military-industrial complex, and finance, should be nationalized and owned by the American public through their democratic government.

I have VA benefits, and you may not know the quality of care that we have through government-run healthcare, but it's good. Yes, it could be better, but you improve it by funding it and making the necessary adjustments. We should have a VA-type system, for everyone in America. Privately owned and run healthcare can still exist, but there should be a government healthcare system for all Americans, not just veterans. No one is complaining about the healthcare our active duty military personnel is receiving, because it's great care. There's no reason why local and state governments funded by the federal government, can't offer everyone healthcare. I also believe in medical freedom. If you can afford it, use private healthcare.

Which unfortunately we don't have in this country and neither does/did the USSR or China. I think it is true however that when policies and programs are put in place that helps everybody, such as the interstate highway system, roads and bridges and such, then capitalism flourishes better.

Not just that, we have to provide everyone in America with a Bill Of Economic Rights. Food, housing, healthcare, an education, and employment, should be considered human rights. Rights everyone is born with. No one in America should starve, be homeless, uneducated, and unemployed. If you can't find a job in the private sector, you should have one in the public sector.

But it is by no means going to collapse every few years, that is nonsense.

That's exactly what happens, every few years. Check it out. Google "government bailouts" and "boom and bust economic cycles". Our government bailsout big industries to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars to keep our economy from collapsing. Without the government bailouts, our economy would be in ruins. There would be war, due to the extreme inequality and austerities that the public would be subjected to. Laissez-faire capitalism leads to abject poverty for tens of millions of people, decimating the economy. Monopolies, cronyism and a concentration of wealth and power at the top are endemic symptoms of capitalism.

Here are just a few of the bailouts, there are many more:

1. 1900-2000:
   1. 1933 - Emergency Banking Act
      • Cause: To stabilize the banking system during the Great Depression.
   2. 1971 - Lockheed Bailout
      • Cause: Lockheed Corporation faced bankruptcy due to cost overruns and problems with the L-1011 Tristar airplane.
   3. 1974 - Franklin National Bank Bailout
      • Cause: The bank failed due to mismanagement and fraud.
   4. 1980 - Chrysler Bailout
      • Cause: Chrysler Corporation faced financial difficulties due to high fuel prices, competition, and recession.
   5. 1984 - Continental Illinois National Bank and Trust Bailout
      • Cause: Continental Illinois suffered significant losses due to bad loans.
   6. 1989 - Savings and Loan Crisis
      • Cause: Savings and loan associations suffered from bad loans and financial mismanagement.
   7. 2000-2021:
   8. 2001 - Federal Reserve Response to Dot-Com Bubble Burst
      • Cause: The Federal Reserve lowered interest rates to mitigate the economic downturn following the bursting of the dot-com bubble.
   9. 2001 - Airline Bailouts Post 9/11
      • Cause: Airlines faced financial difficulties following the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.
   10. 2008-2009 - Financial Crisis Bailouts
       • Cause: The financial crisis of 2008 was due to the collapse of the housing bubble.
   11. 2009 - Automotive Industry Bailout
       • Cause: The automotive industry was severely impacted by the financial crisis of 2008 and the recession.
   12. 2008 - Bear Stearns Bailout
       • Cause: Bear Stearns faced collapse due to its heavy exposure to subprime mortgages and was acquired by JPMorgan Chase with government assistance.
   13. 2008 - Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Bailout
       • Cause: These government-sponsored enterprises faced insolvency due to exposure to the U.S. housing market.
   14. 2020-2021 - Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act
       • Cause: The COVID-19 pandemic caused widespread economic disruption.

Without government intervention, we wouldn't have an economy.

The American System, involved plenty of government intervention. Without it we wouldn't have industrialized.

American System (economic plan) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mexicano]

If one does not have a business idea, the practical knowledge and willingness to work hard - one doesn't get started with an own business in the first place. Unless you are some dude with loads of money from what ever source (to buy over an existing business) - no one starts off with a team - but usually alone or with a partner.
Then you need to work hard to pay for your own life and maybe that of your family - after some time you can accumulate savings in order to expand your one man or two man show business. The last stage in any new business setup and then later due to an expansion of a business will be the setup of a marketing or sales team, in order to get this "network of customers".

Furthermore you need to define "Rich" or "Wealthy" - for most people to start an own business isn't about getting rich, but to be INDEPENDENT and not being an employee.

That before mentioned friend of mine (plumbing business) makes around US$ 15,000/month for himself (the other part goes to his partner and their employees) - if he would be an employee he would make around US5000/month and might have to listen to some silly A-hole boss.

That other friend of mine (car-shop repair maintenance business) makes around US$ 1.500.000 a year for himself. (after 30 years) And he is just as happy as the plumbing friend of mine - because running a company his size - means stress, responsibility and hard work every day and constant reinvestment in order to keep his company on the spot. If not the competition would eat him up. But since he makes a lot more money he doesn't play catch Frisbee with his dog on Sundays - like my plumbing friend, but drives with his Porsche Panamera to a 5 star hotel to play golf - whilst entertaining business partners at the same time. (As such he also works on Sundays).

And during holidays - my plumbing friend either takes his mobile-home and wife for a trip to the mountains or sea - enjoying himself immensely - and also does weekend-trips or short holidays to go on a motorbike cruise with his 1500cc Kawasaki Vulcan and friends. Whilst the other friend spends 2 weeks in Abu Dhabi with his wife staying in a 7 star hotel. And that latter friend is nowhere near as relaxed as the plumbing friend, because he can't just sit around in his company doing nothing and letting other people work for him.

As for a Tik-toker - I can imagine it to be very hard work to get all the crap - Photos, locations, writing and posting it online. How many of these millions of Tik-Tokers get rich?

And for online marketing/selling - it isn't for free either to get a top spot in those online platforms were millions of people advertise. (It's hell of expensive) - so one needs to make money first. That is were the hard work needs to and comes in first.

Obviously the people you and those Commie buggers are always pointing out are NOT business owners - but employees in the higher management hierarchy - e.g the CEO of an OEM - getting his US$ 5-25 million+, regardless of bankrupting the company during his tenure or ensuring it's bankruptcy after he leaves.

As a last - do you know why my plumbing friend can't expand his business?

It's not due to missing marketing or not having a "network of customers" - he simply can't find people that are willing to work hard with their hands for US$ 4000-5000 a month.
They prefer to play property salesman getting US$ 2500-3000 and keeping a white shirt, or sit around at home - collect state welfare + some illegal side income and talk all day long about evil capitalists.

That was a long rant.
Look you have your mind set on an idea. I get the impression you are more visceral than analytic and tend to update your mind-state using anecdotal evidence.
I mostly analyze data and use anecdotes only as a starting point to gather information.
Your friend's case is only a data point ( just as the tik-tokers I mentioned).
You can be a shareholder and your only "hard work" is collecting the equity. Or you could inherit real estate and your only work is to collect the rent.
I don't challenge the notion that being an entrepreneur is challenging, but it is self-evident that not everyone can be an entrepreneur, else there would be no workers working for firms.
As to the fairness or lack of it wages are demand driven and not necessarily tied to the value they add.

 

[Red Front]

If one does not have a business idea, the practical knowledge and willingness to work hard - one doesn't get started with an own business in the first place. Unless you are some dude with loads of money from what ever source (to buy over an existing business) - no one starts off with a team - but usually alone or with a partner.
Then you need to work hard to pay for your own life and maybe that of your family - after some time you can accumulate savings in order to expand your one man or two man show business. The last stage in any new business setup and then later due to an expansion of a business will be the setup of a marketing or sales team, in order to get this "network of customers".

Furthermore you need to define "Rich" or "Wealthy" - for most people to start an own business isn't about getting rich, but to be INDEPENDENT and not being an employee.

That before mentioned friend of mine (plumbing business) makes around US$ 15,000/month for himself (the other part goes to his partner and their employees) - if he would be an employee he would make around US5000/month and might have to listen to some silly A-hole boss.

That other friend of mine (car-shop repair maintenance business) makes around US$ 1.500.000 a year for himself. (after 30 years) And he is just as happy as the plumbing friend of mine - because running a company his size - means stress, responsibility and hard work every day and constant reinvestment in order to keep his company on the spot. If not the competition would eat him up. But since he makes a lot more money he doesn't play catch Frisbee with his dog on Sundays - like my plumbing friend, but drives with his Porsche Panamera to a 5 star hotel to play golf - whilst entertaining business partners at the same time. (As such he also works on Sundays).

And during holidays - my plumbing friend either takes his mobile-home and wife for a trip to the mountains or sea - enjoying himself immensely - and also does weekend-trips or short holidays to go on a motorbike cruise with his 1500cc Kawasaki Vulcan and friends. Whilst the other friend spends 2 weeks in Abu Dhabi with his wife staying in a 7 star hotel. And that latter friend is nowhere near as relaxed as the plumbing friend, because he can't just sit around in his company doing nothing and letting other people work for him.

As for a Tik-toker - I can imagine it to be very hard work to get all the crap - Photos, locations, writing and posting it online. How many of these millions of Tik-Tokers get rich?

And for online marketing/selling - it isn't for free either to get a top spot in those online platforms were millions of people advertise. (It's hell of expensive) - so one needs to make money first. That is were the hard work needs to and comes in first.

Obviously the people you and those Commie buggers are always pointing out are NOT business owners - but employees in the higher management hierarchy - e.g the CEO of an OEM - getting his US$ 5-25 million+, regardless of bankrupting the company during his tenure or ensuring it's bankruptcy after he leaves.

As a last - do you know why my plumbing friend can't expand his business?

It's not due to missing marketing or not having a "network of customers" - he simply can't find people that are willing to work hard with their hands for US$ 4000-5000 a month.
They prefer to play property salesman getting US$ 2500-3000 and keeping a white shirt, or sit around at home - collect state welfare + some illegal side income and talk all day long about evil capitalists.

If one does not have a business idea, the practical knowledge and willingness to work hard - one doesn't get started with an own business in the first place.

Starting a business is cost prohibitive for most people. The price of entry into business ownership is too high for the vast majority of working-class people. In 1980, about 70% of the working class was considered "middle class", whereas today the middle class is about 40% of the working class. Most Americans live hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck. They can't afford to start a business, due to lack of capital. The most hard-working people in this country are of the working class, not the wealthy, who can easily afford to risk some of their money to start a business. Often that sum amounts to a drop in the bucket. If a multimillionaire loses a couple of million dollars, it won't devastate them financially. They're still rich.

Unless you are some dude with loads of money from what ever source (to buy over an existing business) - no one starts off with a team - but usually alone or with a partner. Then you need to work hard to pay for your own life and maybe that of your family - after some time you can accumulate savings in order to expand your one man or two man show business. The last stage in any new business setup and then later due to an expansion of a business will be the setup of a marketing or sales team, in order to get this "network of customers".

If you need to expand the business by incorporating other human beings to work with you, then they should also become your partners. Whoever works in a business should own it with their co-workers. If you're not willing to do that, then just continue working the business yourself with your partner, or perhaps your family. You're no longer an "employee", you're a freeman, supporting himself with his own labor. If you want to live off of other people's labor, extracting surplus value or a profit from their work, paying them less than what they're producing, you're now an exploiter and a little tyrant. A leech.

Production is a social endeavor, not a private one. It involves human beings working together.

Furthermore you need to define "Rich" or "Wealthy" - for most people to start an own business isn't about getting rich, but to be INDEPENDENT and not being an employee.

I know, it sucks being an employee i.e. exploitee, doesn't it? Working in an absolute dictatorship with an unaccountable, unelected boss. A totalitarian regime, where you can get fired at any moment. A system of production, where you're treated like a disposable tool, a commodified piece of machinery, sold in a "labor market". You hate that, don't you? So why inflict that on someone else? Why become that which you hate? You go from being an exploitee to being an exploiter.

That before mentioned friend of mine (plumbing business) makes around US$ 15,000/month for himself (the other part goes to his partner and their employees) - if he would be an employee he would make around US5000/month and might have to listen to some silly A-hole boss.

So now you're the unelected A-hole boss? You create an enterprise with unelected, unaccountable leadership that bosses people around and exploits them, for a profit. Extracting surplus value from people's labor, while you spend time with your family at the beach or country club. How convenient. You become a parasitical leech, living off of other people's hard work. The only unelected bosses that I have a modicum of respect for, are those who are right there working with their employees (e.g. mom-and-pop store pizzeria owners, working on-site with their employees, taking orders, working the cashier, throwing a few pizzas into the oven..etc). The ones that roll up their sleeves and are working with everybody else. They might be the company dictator, but at least they work with their employees.

Most business owners are looking for a way, not to work. They want to get enough capital, to where they can live a life of leisure and fun, on the backs of others.

That other friend of mine (car-shop repair maintenance business) makes around US$ 1.500.000 a year for himself. (after 30 years) And he is just as happy as the plumbing friend of mine - because running a company his size - means stress, responsibility, hard work every day and constant reinvestment

Hard work is what "his plumbers" are doing on-site, unclogging toilets. Most wealthy business owners hire others to do the supervising, accounting, and marketing. Monitoring the business every once in a while to see how the money-generating machine is running, is far from "hard work". A large business like that should be owned by the people who work the business. It should no longer be in the hands of one individual, or one family.

When you incorporate human labor into your business, it's no longer just your business. It's the business of everyone who works it, allowing it to function. All of the leadership in the company should be elected and accountable to their subordinates. Every worker-owner should attend classes at least once a week to learn about the business, and how to run it themselves. Every aspect of the business should be taught to the new owner-workers and members of the business enterprise.

You conservatives claim to be lovers of freedom and liberty, yet have no problem with creating a system of production, that is run like an absolute dictatorship. Totalitarian regimes in the private sector are unconditionally supported by you right-wing conservatives and supposed champions of "freedom". The workplace is where most Americans spend most of their waking hours. Work takes up a significant part of one's life, and you could care less that the place where you work, is being run like a tyrannical regime. You get angry when Biden wins the election, because supposedly Trump got the majority vote, not Biden, showing that you are pro-democracy, but then fight tooth and nail, to keep democracy out of the workplace.

You people are a contradiction.

in order to keep his company on the spot. If not the competition would eat him up. But since he makes a lot more money he doesn't play catch Frisbee with his dog on Sundays - like my plumbing friend, but drives with his Porsche Panamera to a 5 star hotel to play golf - whilst entertaining business partners at the same time. (As such he also works on Sundays).

UUuuuuu that is such hard work lol. He's an exploiting leech, living off of other people's labor. An unaccountable, unelected boss, who should lose his privileged position and get to work with everybody else. I know you people are lazy and don't want to work to make a living. I understand that, but nonetheless, you should have no right to be a parasite, generating an income from other people's labor. Paying them less than what they produce and spending that money, on yourself and your family.

The money generated by the business, which is worked by its workers should be re-invested into the company, to make everyone's job secure and improve everyone's life. Worker-owned cooperatives have a competitive edge over privately owned businesses because all of the profits of the enterprise are re-invested into the business, facilitating quick expansion, better equipment and work conditions, better product output, better customer service, product warranties..etc.

All salaries in the company don't have to be the same. Managers, the bosses, will make more money than their subordinates, but all of those bosses are elected into that managerial role, by their fellow workers. The worker's council elects the bosses, and the members of the council, are elected by everyone who works the business. One worker, one vote. Democracy is not just for politics/civil government, but for the productive business enterprise as well (democracy in politics and production).

And during holidays - my plumbing friend either takes his mobile-home and wife for a trip to the mountains or sea - enjoying himself immensely - and also does weekend-trips or short holidays to go on a motorbike cruise with his 1500cc Kawasaki Vulcan and friends. Whilst the other friend spends 2 weeks in Abu Dhabi with his wife staying in a 7 star hotel. And that latter friend is nowhere near as relaxed as the plumbing friend, because he can't just sit around in his company doing nothing and letting other people work for him.

He's a parasite, living off of other people's hard work.

As for a Tik-toker - I can imagine it to be very hard work to get all the crap - Photos, locations, writing and posting it online. How many of these millions of Tik-Tokers get rich?

Hardly any of them, but there's no reason not to try. Making money as an online entertainer or influencer is a business with a low cost of entry, that almost anyone can try.

And for online marketing/selling - it isn't for free either to get a top spot in those online platforms were millions of people advertise. (It's hell of expensive) - so one needs to make money first. That is were the hard work needs to and comes in first.

I run ads on Tiktok, YouTube and other platforms. It's not that expensive. It's quite cheap actually.

Obviously the people you and those Commie buggers are always pointing out are NOT business owners - but employees in the higher management hierarchy - e.g the CEO of an OEM - getting his US$ 5-25 million+, regardless of bankrupting the company during his tenure or ensuring it's bankruptcy after he leaves.

I'm a commie who is a skilled laborer and member of a labor union, with a side business, I work with my wife and kids. We all own the business together, as a family. If we ever expand our business, hiring workers, it would stop just being my family's business. It would be the business of everyone who works the enterprise.

As a last - do you know why my plumbing friend can't expand his business? It's not due to missing marketing or not having a "network of customers" - he simply can't find people that are willing to work hard with their hands for US$ 4000-5000 a month.

They're like him, they don't want to work? Perhaps the issue for these workers, isn't the pay, but being bossed around by a parasite leech that lives a life of leisure from their hard work. Hmmm? Ever considered that? If people aren't willing to work as plumbers "for you", being paid $4000-$5000 monthly, then that means the market is demanding more. That's "free market" capitalism. The workers want to get paid more than what he is offering. Boohoo. Life is expensive today, have you looked at the price of renting an apartment lately?

They prefer to play property salesman getting US$ 2500-3000 and keeping a white shirt..

Working with shit from toilets, under your wealthy parasite buddy for a bit more money, isn't worth it. They choose freedom, making less money, wearing a nice shirt, in an office or working from home. Sounds good. You have no problem with people living in oppulance, and leisure off of other people's labor, looking out for their own interests, and then gripe about working-class people who don't want to bend over and take it in the butt from you and your wealthy buddies. The irony and "richness" is amazing.

or sit around at home - collect state welfare + some illegal side income and talk all day long about evil capitalists.

You have a very active imagination and an ironic set of values. You're against people being lazy and living off state welfare (kudos, good for you, I agree), but then hypocritically support parasitical behavior from your wealthy buddy. I agree with you, people shouldn't be lazy, living off of a welfare check. That must be a horrible life, relying on peanuts in order to survive. I don't see the benefit of not working and relying on a government check. Is that even possible in America? Maybe it is, but that's a nightmarish life. Nothing to aspire for or be proud of. I believe in earning one's keep through work, and your wealthy leech friend isn't doing that.

You capitalists don't want to work, but rather live a life of leisure, generating wealth from other people's labor.

 

[Mac-7]

China is only communist in name, not in practice.

I agree

Its social programs are a joke

Without the west to teach them how to produce stuff china would be dead in the water

But like it or not its still a communist country, and just another example of marxism’s failure wherever it exists

 

[Kruska]

That was a long rant

It wasn't a rant at all - it was providing you with basic, elementary facts - so that you know what you might be talking about, instead of a "network of customers" being the reason for a companies success.

I mostly analyze data and use anecdotes only as a starting point to gather information.

I am dead sure that's all you do - so tell me where does your analytic data come from? answer: from practically operating and existing companies.

You can be a shareholder and your only "hard work" is collecting the equity.

Right - a Commies and lazy persons ultimate dream: buy a share, sit around and wait, and get rich - keep dreaming.

 

[Red Front]

I agree

Its social programs are a joke

Without the west to teach them how to produce stuff china would be dead in the water

But like it or not its still a communist country, and just another example of marxism’s failure wherever it exists

I agree. Its social programs are a joke.

Complete, utter trash. There are just as many Chinese people, if not more, going bankrupt with medical bills in China than here in the USA. How are they communist? Education is hardly accessible beyond high school, to most Chinese citizens. Labor rights are non-existent and forget about labor unions. China has been garbage for decades, both under 100% Maoism and under state capitalism.

Taiwan, does socialism better than China. They have more socialism in Taiwan, than in mainland China. The United States, in several of our states, like NY, Vermont, and even Arizona, where I used to live, is more socialist, than China. Western Europe, of course, it goes without saying, is much more socialist than China. China is pathetic. A bad joke.

Without the west to teach them how to produce stuff china would be dead in the water But like it or not its still a communist country, and just another example of marxism’s failure wherever it exists.

Now you're being disingenuous again. When countries that you deem not to be capitalist, because they're not doing capitalism as they should, you say "that's fake capitalism!". When a country claims to be "communist" or Marxist and they do the very opposite of Marxist communism, you argue that they are actually Marxist communists. Now you're just being dishonest.

High-communism, according to Marxist theory, is a stateless society, without socioeconomic classes or the need for money. That's not China. Not even the Soviet Union was truly communist.

USSR
UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS
Soviets = Worker Councils.​

Socialism is communism light. It's the process that leads to a communist society that no longer has a state, classes, or the need for money. The reason socialists like myself call themselves "communist", is because communism is the objective. It's the archetype that we strive for. No state, no classes, no need for money. That can only happen in the modern age, with very advanced technology. When you and I, as consumers, have access to Star Trek-level technology, like the "replicator", that is able to manipulate atoms, creating any product we want, almost like magic, then we will be able to be truly communist.

​

Until we reach that level of technology, we have socialism. We're going to need socialism, due to the advanced automation and artificial intelligence that we have today.

A better example of state Marxist socialism than China is Vietnam.

Is Vietnam socialist?

The most common question I receive about Vietnam is: IS VIETNAM ACTUALLY SOCIALIST?Today, we attempt to answer that question by looking at the historical and...

www.youtube.com

 

[Cellblock2429]

Respectfully disagree. Capitalism can mostly function quite well without socialism, but it does require effective government oversight. Which unfortunately we don't have in this country and neither does/did the USSR or China. I think it is true however that when policies and programs are put in place that helps everybody, such as the interstate highway system, roads and bridges and such, then capitalism flourishes better. But it is by no means going to collapse every few years, that is nonsense.

/-----/ "Respectfully disagree. "
You don't have to be polite or respectful when arguing with a Communist. They are not nice people. If they gain power, they will strip you of your property, lively hood, liberty, and even your life.

Top Ten Most Evil Dictators of All Time (in order of kill ... - NewsRescue​

Pol Pot (1.7 million deaths) Breakdown: Forced city folk to relocate to farms and forced them into hard labor. Pol Pot was the leader of the communist movement in Cambodia. He attempted to "cleanse" the country and it resulted in the death of an estimated 1.7 to 2.5 million people. ... Estimates on the total number of casualties within ...

 

[Mac-7]

I agree. Its social programs are a joke.

Complete, utter trash. There are just as many Chinese people, if not more, going bankrupt with medical bills in China. How are they communist? Education is hardly accessible beyond high school, to most Chinese citizens. Labor rights are non-existent and forget about labor unions. China has been garbage for decades, both under 100% Maoism and under state capitalism.

Taiwan, does socialism better than China. They have more socialism in Taiwan, than in mainland China. The United States, in several of our states, like NY, Vermont, and even Arizona, where I used to live, is more socialist, than China. Western Europe, of course, it goes without saying, is much more socialist than China. China is pathetic. A bad joke.

Without the west to teach them how to produce stuff china would be dead in the water But like it or not its still a communist country, and just another example of marxism’s failure wherever it exists.

Now you're being disingenuous again. When countries that you deem not to be capitalist, because they're not doing capitalism as they should, you argue that they're not capitalist. When a country claims to be "communist" or Marxist and they do the very opposite of Marxist communism, you argue that they are actually Marxist communism. Now you're just being dishonest.

High-communism, according to Marxist theory, is a stateless society, without socioeconomic classes or the need for money. That's not China. Not even the Soviet Union was truly communist.

USSR
UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS
Soviets = Worker Councils.​

Socialism is communism light. It's the process that leads to a communist society that no longer has a state, classes, or the need for money. The reason socialists like myself call themselves "communist", is because communism is the objective. It's the archetype that we strive for. No state, no classes, no need for money. That can only happen in the modern age, with very advanced technology. When you and I, as consumers, have Star Trek-level technology, like the "replicator", that is able to manipulate atoms, creating any product you want, almost like magic, then we will be able to be truly communist.

​

Until we reach that level of technology, we have socialism. We're going to need socialism, due to the advanced automation and artificial intelligence that we have today.

A better example of state Marxist socialism is Vietnam.

Is Vietnam socialist?

The most common question I receive about Vietnam is: IS VIETNAM ACTUALLY SOCIALIST?Today, we attempt to answer that question by looking at the historical and...

www.youtube.com

You are just fooling yourself

The chinese dictatorship has been communist since Mao created it in the 1920’s

Under communism individuals have no rights and no value except to serve the state