What Is Wrong With America ?

[Ame®icano]

Ayup and the civil war amendments were to free the "slaves" but really ended up enslaving us all.. and income taxes were to pay for wars but really ended up paying for social re-distribution programs and buying votes. And the senate amendment was to give the people control over the senate, but really ended up removing the check on tyranny of the 51% majority.

The 14th is the one I would repeal first, because as it is now, States are not represented in federal government.

I think you mean the 17th. But yeah, that one was a major screw up. Has turned the Senate into a cabinet of the president when controlled by the same party.

The problem with the 14th is the due process clause that allows the states to take our property as long as they say they are doing it with due process and "fairness" whatever the hell that means. Further, as seen with federal government programs like Obama Care and Medicaid, the federal government uses this state power via proxy to take away our assets for welfare programs that the federal government insists we have. States refusing to comply get screwed by not being able to receive federal checks for said programs. IOW if you buy into the federal socialist state, half the money for the welfare programs comes from the general fund (primarily income taxes and debt on income taxes, redistributing from conservative states to welfare states) and the other half from state asset recovery (taking of property), ... all based on "due process."

Oops, my bad, I was thinking about 17th...

 

[Erand7899]

[

JoeB and protectionist absurdly claim to be "Eisenhower" Republican's (despite Joseph's proud declaration of his love for communism). Rightwinger names himself "Rightwinger" despite being a full-fledged progressive. And "nodoginnafight" thinks the name will convince people he is independent despite being a hard-core socialist liberal.

Guy, you really, really need to understand what Communism means before you start going around calling people that. Universal health care isn't Communism. It's common fucking sense. So is fair wages for working folks.

The real problem with the GOP is that after Reagan, the crazies took over. The Religious crazies, the Ayn Rand crazies, and so on.



You repeat this a lot, but you don't dispute his fact. Ike kept the high marginal rates that FDR imposed during the war, and as a result, we not only built a strong post-war military, but also strong infrastructure that aided our industrial and economic strength. Not to mention the growth of the middle class that was unprecedented in American history.

But all you see is that the Rich had to pay their fair share, and you're horrified.

Incidently, when JFK reduced the top rate to 70%, REPUBLICANS called it fiscally irresponsible.

You have a point there. Today we spend Ungodly sums of money to Blackwater and Hallburton to have obscene contracts, and we don't have a powerful military at all. A bunch of guys hiding in caves are fighting us to a standstill.

The only objective was to protect South Korea from aggression. That was done. The Chinese had fought us to a standstill and the only way to "acheive" the objective was to either start a nuclear war or escalate the thing to a World War, which everyone agreed was a horrible idea. We'd have probably lost Japan and Europe in the process.

And what do you think "increasing minimum wage and SS is - ensuring a small group of people receive an unfair advantage at the detriment of the rest

I'd call it a fair distribution of the fruits of labor.

This is kind of what you don't get. The 1% doesn't earn the 43% of the wealth it collects.

It just controlls the slicing of the pie, it didn't make the pie.

I LOVE YA, MAN!!!

Your concept that the 1% doesn't earn the 43% of the wealth it collects, is pure nonsense. That is the same as saying the people who receive interest on their savings, or receive rent on their property, didn't earn that wealth.

Someone put forth the money and effort to build, or rent, the plant, store, or shop that a worker slaves away in. Someone put forth the money and effort to buy the equipment, materials and tools that the worker slaves away with. Someone manages that business, worries about sales, taxes, regulations, permits, and making next weeks payroll. Yet, in your humble opinion, they earned nothing for their efforts or the risk they took with their money?

When I was a youngster, my Dad told me that there were limited ways one could earn an honest living and gain wealth.

First, was by selling my manual labor to a willing buyer. There was, and still is, a whole lot of manual labor available, and consequently manual labor does not draw a very high price on the market.

Second, was selling my knowledge, skills, and/or talents to a willing buyer. The more knowledge, skills, and/or talents that I possess, the higher the price I can receive in the market. Less competition and more demand.

Third, was using any capital that I possessed, or could buy, to engage in an enterprise that earned me a return on both my labor and the capital that I had invested.

Fourth, was to sell any capital that I possessed to someone else who wished to engage in an enterprise. That would be putting my capital to work for me.

The first two options can lead to a living and/or a good living. The last two options can lead to a good living and/or wealth. Upward mobility is movement from the first, to the second, and then to either the third or fourth. My experience was 1, 2, 3, then 4. Others moved faster and further, others didn't get beyond 1 or 2. All are honorable, honest methods of personal advancement, and there is no evil involved.

 

[protectionist]

8. Not every responsibility is in the Constitution. Govt has responsiblities, whether they're in the Constitution or not.

I'll comment on this only.

Federal government has it's responsibilities. They're listed in article I section 8.

For anything else there is 10th amendment.

Not every responsibility is in the Constitution. Govt has responsiblities, whether they're in the Constitution or not.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Liberals

 

[protectionist]

Guy, you really, really need to understand what Communism means before you start going around calling people that. Universal health care isn't Communism. It's common fucking sense. So is fair wages for working folks.

The real problem with the GOP is that after Reagan, the crazies took over. The Religious crazies, the Ayn Rand crazies, and so on.



You repeat this a lot, but you don't dispute his fact. Ike kept the high marginal rates that FDR imposed during the war, and as a result, we not only built a strong post-war military, but also strong infrastructure that aided our industrial and economic strength. Not to mention the growth of the middle class that was unprecedented in American history.

But all you see is that the Rich had to pay their fair share, and you're horrified.

Incidently, when JFK reduced the top rate to 70%, REPUBLICANS called it fiscally irresponsible.

You have a point there. Today we spend Ungodly sums of money to Blackwater and Hallburton to have obscene contracts, and we don't have a powerful military at all. A bunch of guys hiding in caves are fighting us to a standstill.

The only objective was to protect South Korea from aggression. That was done. The Chinese had fought us to a standstill and the only way to "acheive" the objective was to either start a nuclear war or escalate the thing to a World War, which everyone agreed was a horrible idea. We'd have probably lost Japan and Europe in the process.



I'd call it a fair distribution of the fruits of labor.

This is kind of what you don't get. The 1% doesn't earn the 43% of the wealth it collects.

It just controlls the slicing of the pie, it didn't make the pie.

I LOVE YA, MAN!!!

Your concept that the 1% doesn't earn the 43% of the wealth it collects, is pure nonsense. That is the same as saying the people who receive interest on their savings, or receive rent on their property, didn't earn that wealth.

Someone put forth the money and effort to build, or rent, the plant, store, or shop that a worker slaves away in. Someone put forth the money and effort to buy the equipment, materials and tools that the worker slaves away with. Someone manages that business, worries about sales, taxes, regulations, permits, and making next weeks payroll. Yet, in your humble opinion, they earned nothing for their efforts or the risk they took with their money?

I agree with JoeB, while guessing that he means the 1% don't earn ALL of that 43% (or even most of it). Sure, investors "put forth" money, and do risk it (although many investments are every low risk)

At the same time though, much of this discussion comes down to the definition of the word "earn". I'd say a soldier in Afghanistan who puts forth his LIFE, and risks it, and sometimes loses it, is doing more "earning than the investor is. Likewise with coal miners, firefighters, and other people with much riskier occupation than the investor.

Also many business owners don't do the management of the business, They have hired managers for that.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Your concept that the 1% doesn't earn the 43% of the wealth it collects, is pure nonsense. That is the same as saying the people who receive interest on their savings, or receive rent on their property, didn't earn that wealth.

Someone put forth the money and effort to build, or rent, the plant, store, or shop that a worker slaves away in. Someone put forth the money and effort to buy the equipment, materials and tools that the worker slaves away with. Someone manages that business, worries about sales, taxes, regulations, permits, and making next weeks payroll. Yet, in your humble opinion, they earned nothing for their efforts or the risk they took with their money?

.

That's all nice and stuff, but the fact is, if you consider capital to be the proceeds of labor, then, sorry, no, 1% is not doing 43% of the physical labor in this country.

Now, here's the thing, I realize that, yes, there is a need for concentrations of wealth. But we've gotten to the point where it has become destructive, where a clown like Mitt Romney can go into a factory town, borrow against a factory without making any upgrades, demand a bunch of concessions from the people who do the work, pay himself nice dividends out borrowed money, and then let the whole thing go bankrupt and leave someone else holding the bag.

And your side wanted to put him and his magic underroos in the White House.

 

[Spiderman]

[

Your concept that the 1% doesn't earn the 43% of the wealth it collects, is pure nonsense. That is the same as saying the people who receive interest on their savings, or receive rent on their property, didn't earn that wealth.

Someone put forth the money and effort to build, or rent, the plant, store, or shop that a worker slaves away in. Someone put forth the money and effort to buy the equipment, materials and tools that the worker slaves away with. Someone manages that business, worries about sales, taxes, regulations, permits, and making next weeks payroll. Yet, in your humble opinion, they earned nothing for their efforts or the risk they took with their money?

.

That's all nice and stuff, but the fact is, if you consider capital to be the proceeds of labor, then, sorry, no, 1% is not doing 43% of the physical labor in this country.

.

I would rather use the actual definition of capital than your made up one

wealth in the form of money or other assets owned by a person or organization or available or contributed for a particular purpose such as starting a company or investing

 

[JoeB131]

[

Your concept that the 1% doesn't earn the 43% of the wealth it collects, is pure nonsense. That is the same as saying the people who receive interest on their savings, or receive rent on their property, didn't earn that wealth.

Someone put forth the money and effort to build, or rent, the plant, store, or shop that a worker slaves away in. Someone put forth the money and effort to buy the equipment, materials and tools that the worker slaves away with. Someone manages that business, worries about sales, taxes, regulations, permits, and making next weeks payroll. Yet, in your humble opinion, they earned nothing for their efforts or the risk they took with their money?

.

That's all nice and stuff, but the fact is, if you consider capital to be the proceeds of labor, then, sorry, no, 1% is not doing 43% of the physical labor in this country.

.

I would rather use the actual definition of capital than your made up one

wealth in the form of money or other assets owned by a person or organization or available or contributed for a particular purpose such as starting a company or investing

The point is, though, that assets are created by the labor of others. Therefore my definition stands.

 

[Spiderman]

That's all nice and stuff, but the fact is, if you consider capital to be the proceeds of labor, then, sorry, no, 1% is not doing 43% of the physical labor in this country.

.

I would rather use the actual definition of capital than your made up one

wealth in the form of money or other assets owned by a person or organization or available or contributed for a particular purpose such as starting a company or investing

The point is, though, that assets are created by the labor of others. Therefore my definition stands.

Just because you say it does?

Besides those people were paid for their labor so they give up all right to the end result.

If they wanted to retain the right to the result then they should have initiated the work, assumed all responsibilities for cost and risk and not merely sold their labor for dollars.

 

[JoeB131]

[

Just because you say it does?

Besides those people were paid for their labor so they give up all right to the end result.

If they wanted to retain the right to the result then they should have initiated the work, assumed all responsibilities for cost and risk and not merely sold their labor for dollars.

I agree, They were paid for their labor.

Now we need to fairly pay those who are doing the work.

And not the parasites who are collecting the proceeds.

Seriously, guy, for someone who is not rich, you seem to have an awful lot of sympathy for the cocksuckers.

It's kind of like Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[Spiderman]

[

Just because you say it does?

Besides those people were paid for their labor so they give up all right to the end result.

If they wanted to retain the right to the result then they should have initiated the work, assumed all responsibilities for cost and risk and not merely sold their labor for dollars.

I agree, They were paid for their labor.

Now we need to fairly pay those who are doing the work.

The price they accepted for their labor is by definition fair. if it wasn't fair they wouldn't have done the work.

And not the parasites who are collecting the proceeds.

Seriously, guy, for someone who is not rich, you seem to have an awful lot of sympathy for the cocksuckers.

It's kind of like Stockholm Syndrome.

Not at all. I am financially secure for the rest of my life without having to work another day.

I worked and worked very hard since I was 15. But unlike you and the other whiners I saved my money then used that money to make more money.

I took the risks and assumed responsibility for the costs of my ventures unlike you who wish to assume no risk and no cost yet want to reap the same rewards.

 

[Mac1958]

I worked and worked very hard since I was 15. But unlike you and the other whiners I saved my money then used that money to make more money.

I took the risks and assumed responsibility for the costs of my ventures unlike you who wish to assume no risk and no cost yet want to reap the same rewards.

Oooh, you're evil and greedy and mean!

I bet you stole that money! That's the only way it's done!



.

 

[Spiderman]

I worked and worked very hard since I was 15. But unlike you and the other whiners I saved my money then used that money to make more money.

I took the risks and assumed responsibility for the costs of my ventures unlike you who wish to assume no risk and no cost yet want to reap the same rewards.

Oooh, you're evil and greedy and mean!

I bet you stole that money! That's the only way it's done!



.

Not only did I steal it but I mistreated everyone who I ever contracted to provide labor as well.

Because after all that is the only way anyone makes money.

 

[Redfish]

[

Your concept that the 1% doesn't earn the 43% of the wealth it collects, is pure nonsense. That is the same as saying the people who receive interest on their savings, or receive rent on their property, didn't earn that wealth.

Someone put forth the money and effort to build, or rent, the plant, store, or shop that a worker slaves away in. Someone put forth the money and effort to buy the equipment, materials and tools that the worker slaves away with. Someone manages that business, worries about sales, taxes, regulations, permits, and making next weeks payroll. Yet, in your humble opinion, they earned nothing for their efforts or the risk they took with their money?

.

That's all nice and stuff, but the fact is, if you consider capital to be the proceeds of labor, then, sorry, no, 1% is not doing 43% of the physical labor in this country.

Now, here's the thing, I realize that, yes, there is a need for concentrations of wealth. But we've gotten to the point where it has become destructive, where a clown like Mitt Romney can go into a factory town, borrow against a factory without making any upgrades, demand a bunch of concessions from the people who do the work, pay himself nice dividends out borrowed money, and then let the whole thing go bankrupt and leave someone else holding the bag.

And your side wanted to put him and his magic underroos in the White House.

Stop lying, that is not what Bain Capital did.

 

[Redfish]

[

Just because you say it does?

Besides those people were paid for their labor so they give up all right to the end result.

If they wanted to retain the right to the result then they should have initiated the work, assumed all responsibilities for cost and risk and not merely sold their labor for dollars.

I agree, They were paid for their labor.

Now we need to fairly pay those who are doing the work.

And not the parasites who are collecting the proceeds.

Seriously, guy, for someone who is not rich, you seem to have an awful lot of sympathy for the cocksuckers.

It's kind of like Stockholm Syndrome.

With your beliefs you really reallly need to live in a country like North Korea or Cuba. They are run exactly the way you want the US to operate.

 

[Mac1958]

[

Just because you say it does?

Besides those people were paid for their labor so they give up all right to the end result.

If they wanted to retain the right to the result then they should have initiated the work, assumed all responsibilities for cost and risk and not merely sold their labor for dollars.

I agree, They were paid for their labor.

Now we need to fairly pay those who are doing the work.

And not the parasites who are collecting the proceeds.

Seriously, guy, for someone who is not rich, you seem to have an awful lot of sympathy for the cocksuckers.

It's kind of like Stockholm Syndrome.

With your beliefs you really reallly need to live in a country like North Korea or Cuba. They are run exactly the way you want the US to operate.

Sadly, this is not the way it's going to play out. We're just gonna keep lowering standards and the resulting decay will take care of it.

Then these folks will get what they want just by being patient.

.

 

[JoeB131]

I worked and worked very hard since I was 15. But unlike you and the other whiners I saved my money then used that money to make more money.

I took the risks and assumed responsibility for the costs of my ventures unlike you who wish to assume no risk and no cost yet want to reap the same rewards.

Oooh, you're evil and greedy and mean!

I bet you stole that money! That's the only way it's done!



.

More likely, he's living in someone's basement and when he isn't telling folks on the internets how rich he is, he's telling them about his porn-star quality wang.

 

[JoeB131]

[

With your beliefs you really reallly need to live in a country like North Korea or Cuba. They are run exactly the way you want the US to operate.

No, actually, I want to live in the America I grew up in during the 1960's.

One where working folks got fair wages and the wealthy paid their fair share in taxes and by and large, the country worked.

 

[JoeB131]

[

That's all nice and stuff, but the fact is, if you consider capital to be the proceeds of labor, then, sorry, no, 1% is not doing 43% of the physical labor in this country.

Now, here's the thing, I realize that, yes, there is a need for concentrations of wealth. But we've gotten to the point where it has become destructive, where a clown like Mitt Romney can go into a factory town, borrow against a factory without making any upgrades, demand a bunch of concessions from the people who do the work, pay himself nice dividends out borrowed money, and then let the whole thing go bankrupt and leave someone else holding the bag.

And your side wanted to put him and his magic underroos in the White House.

Stop lying, that is not what Bain Capital did.

No, that's exactly how Bain Capital operated.

Look up KB Toys, AmPad, GS Steel, or any of the other companies Bain looted for a quick profit.

 

[dblack]

[

Just because you say it does?

Besides those people were paid for their labor so they give up all right to the end result.

If they wanted to retain the right to the result then they should have initiated the work, assumed all responsibilities for cost and risk and not merely sold their labor for dollars.

I agree, They were paid for their labor.

Now we need to fairly pay those who are doing the work.

And not the parasites who are collecting the proceeds.

Seriously, guy, for someone who is not rich, you seem to have an awful lot of sympathy for the cocksuckers.

It's kind of like Stockholm Syndrome.

Joe, what you're writing off in your calculation is the very real work off organizing and allocating labor and resources toward useful results. It's incredibly important work in fact. You can replace capitalists with government agents, but the work still needs to get done. And most countries who've tried to adopt a full socialist model have found that individuals motivated by profit are far more effective than bureaucrats or democratically elected officials.