What is your background/interest in the Middle East?

[Hossfly]

Like I said, for every missile shot Israel needs to carpet bomb a two mile radius of where the missile was shot from. You'll see the missiles cease quickly. Israel is too nice to these animals.

And yet when Gaza has tried this in Gaza it has not worked - how do you explain that?

Obviously you are aware that during Operation Peace for Galilee, membership of Hezbollah rose more than 400%, despite utilizing the practices you suggest - how do you explain that?

Satan's efforts never cease. That's why.

 

[Saigon]

Like I said, for every missile shot Israel needs to carpet bomb a two mile radius of where the missile was shot from. You'll see the missiles cease quickly. Israel is too nice to these animals.

And yet when Gaza has tried this in Gaza it has not worked - how do you explain that?

Obviously you are aware that during Operation Peace for Galilee, membership of Hezbollah rose more than 400%, despite utilizing the practices you suggest - how do you explain that?

Satan's efforts never cease. That's why.

Or we could consider something I was told in Israel:

How do you create a terrorist?

You kill his father, you arrest his brother, and you bulldoze his house.

 

[Saigon]

Nice one Eots, it would have actually be interesting if you didn't post the same thing 1000 times. Is it the second Jstone?

Since this thread is about background and self excperience, and if people don't mind me sharing.

The first one was of the closest friend of mine, when she was about 15. She lives in a town near Jerusalem. On the way home, the father of the family saw that the vihicle who drove ahead of them, suddenly disappeard from eyesight. Few minutes afterwars the noise of samthing being fired was heard, and they saw the spoken car nearby the road. my friend told me that all she could remember was hearing screams.

The Palestinians stood on the hills, waited for the passingby cars, and the snipers took their shots, and like that were gone.

A baby died that day.

Second experience was mine. I don't remember the date, But I do remember, it was a Sunday, about 10 am. I just got released from the army, few days before the incident, i was about to meet with a friend of mine few hours afterwards, but in the meantime I drove to the city's largest shopping mall, to buy some new cloths and enjoy the free time I have. I suddenly felt hungry, so I got down to the mall's first floor, to have a sandwich and a cup of coffee. I sat in the western corner of the floor, right nearby the stairs. On the other side there was the joystick corner, where the kids will play while adults eat. It was a Sunday, so obviously the shopping mall was full. looking around, I remmber a beduin family, a mother, two small children. On the otherside, two female soldiers, who were next to me in the line, sat in the farer table, joking about boys. I opened the book I brought with me, and pulling the cellphone out, I called my mom, to ask if she felt well this morning, if she needed me to buy something for her.

While we were talking, I suddenly heard 3 or 4 boom-like sounds; I got pissed, and thought to myself, "Stupid kids, what the hell do they think they're doing, throwing detonators in an overcrowded shopping mall??' But then, for half a second, there was complete silence, and then it all happened extemely fast. I saw the bedouin mother yelling something to her children in Arabic, then taking one in his hand, one in her arms, and starts running. towards the exist. two young boys in the area did the same. the two female soldiers, unarmed, got up quickly and ran towards the exist. all in a matter of seconds, then I heard another "boom" sound. I saw the people behind the coffee-shop trying to hide behind the counter. not wasting another second, I started running muself. the book and the food, together with my bad, were left behind. I simply remember feeling my heartbeat much faster, yelling to my mother on the phone, "Ima, Mechabel, Mechabel! ("Mom, a terrorist, a terrorist!"). Took me a second to realize someone just nearly shot me, I saw one of the two female soldiers burst out crying, the mother running outside trying to calm her wailing child, that must have figured something bad happened, and I couldn't stop shaking. The guard in the entrance simply looked confused.

The city of Be'er Sheva knew in the last 18 years about 5 terror attacks, a very low number compared to Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. If any terror comes, it's through rockets or Missiles, not through an armed man, not in the way it happened that day. I remember that at some point we realized someone was hurt, tried to hurry to help the guy, I remember seeing him bleeding, there was nothing we could have done. some other people were slightly hurt, but not to bad, not like that young man, in his twenties. the shopping mall was closed after security forces arrived. nearly 10 Ambulances, cops on motorcycles, I simply ran outside and nearly threw up remembering the bleeding man. I couldn't stop shaking. the people who came to the shopping mall were locked outside, they figured what happened because sudden harsh movement of ambulances and police forces is not something that the citizen of Be'er Sheva is used to see. After the incident, that was immediately on the news, I calmed my mom over and over by the phone, that all my body parts are intact, but that I was coming back home, I had no desire staying in that area longer than a few minutes more.

since that morning, I don't approach the first floor in that shopping mall.

Amazing stories - really disturbing.

I am so sorry you have to live through those things....not sure how well I could cope with something like that.

Thanks for posting those.

 

[P F Tinmore]

And yet when Gaza has tried this in Gaza it has not worked - how do you explain that?

Obviously you are aware that during Operation Peace for Galilee, membership of Hezbollah rose more than 400%, despite utilizing the practices you suggest - how do you explain that?

Satan's efforts never cease. That's why.

Or we could consider something I was told in Israel:

How do you create a terrorist?

You kill his father, you arrest his brother, and you bulldoze his house.

Terrorism is a bulldozer at my front door. ~ Palestinian poet

 

[Artevelde]

And yet when Gaza has tried this in Gaza it has not worked - how do you explain that?

Obviously you are aware that during Operation Peace for Galilee, membership of Hezbollah rose more than 400%, despite utilizing the practices you suggest - how do you explain that?

Satan's efforts never cease. That's why.

Or we could consider something I was told in Israel:

How do you create a terrorist?

You kill his father, you arrest his brother, and you bulldoze his house.

Nice story, but not really accurate. Terrorism is fuelled by the hate of those who propagate it.

 

[Roudy]

Like I said, for every missile shot Israel needs to carpet bomb a two mile radius of where the missile was shot from. You'll see the missiles cease quickly. Israel is too nice to these animals.

And yet when Gaza has tried this in Gaza it has not worked - how do you explain that?

Obviously you are aware that during Operation Peace for Galilee, membership of Hezbollah rose more than 400%, despite utilizing the practices you suggest - how do you explain that?

The practice I suggested never happened. Something close to it happened in southern Lebanon, after Israel decimated all Hezbollah strongholds and leveled the whole area into a parking lot. Of course after that a lot of whining ensued and Israel had to pull back. But the end result is Hezbollah got the message. By admission of the Hezbollah leader himself he said he would never have done it if he knew it would spark such a reaction from the Israelis.

I am surprised you claim to have lived in Israel and know nothing about Muslim mentality. You are quite ignorant.

 

[Roudy]

Like I said, for every missile shot Israel needs to carpet bomb a two mile radius of where the missile was shot from. You'll see the missiles cease quickly. Israel is too nice to these animals.

And yet when Gaza has tried this in Gaza it has not worked - how do you explain that?

Obviously you are aware that during Operation Peace for Galilee, membership of Hezbollah rose more than 400%, despite utilizing the practices you suggest - how do you explain that?

Satan's efforts never cease. That's why.

Satan has fully occupied the brain of Tiny and the barbaric Muslim savages he supports.

 

[Roudy]

And yet when Gaza has tried this in Gaza it has not worked - how do you explain that?

Obviously you are aware that during Operation Peace for Galilee, membership of Hezbollah rose more than 400%, despite utilizing the practices you suggest - how do you explain that?

Satan's efforts never cease. That's why.

Or we could consider something I was told in Israel:

How do you create a terrorist?

You kill his father, you arrest his brother, and you bulldoze his house.

Oh OK! so let's not go after the terrorist mass murderers then, it might create more terrorists. Defective logic from a defective mind.

 

[Saigon]

The practice I suggested never happened. Something close to it happened in southern Lebanon, after Israel decimated all Hezbollah strongholds and leveled the whole area into a parking lot. Of course after that a lot of whining ensued and Israel had to pull back. But the end result is Hezbollah got the message. By admission of the Hezbollah leader himself he said he would never have done it if he knew it would spark such a reaction from the Israelis.

It happened in Gaza, of course, and to a great extent than it ever happened in Southern Lebanon, because Gaza is such a confined area, whereas Southern Lebanon is not - fighters could move east in Shebaa Farms or north into Bekaa.

You don't say which incursion into Lebanon you mean, but obviously the area was never "turned into a parking lot" the way parts of Gaza were. If you mean 1980, then as I mentioned earlier - this saw membership in Hezbollah increase 400%.

 

[Saigon]

You kill his father, you arrest his brother, and you bulldoze his house.

Oh OK! so let's not go after the terrorist mass murderers then, it might create more terrorists. Defective logic from a defective mind.[/QUOTE]

The point is that collective punishment - widely used by Israel since Intifada 1 - has helped create terror.

No one is suggesting that acts of terror should go unpunished - but punishing people who have not comitted acts of terror only encourages them to do so.

I do recommend this book on this topic:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Palestine-How-End-1948/dp/1583225382]Amazon.com: Israel/Palestine: How to End the War of 1948 (9781583225387): Tanya Reinhart: Books[/ame]

 

[Artevelde]

The practice I suggested never happened. Something close to it happened in southern Lebanon, after Israel decimated all Hezbollah strongholds and leveled the whole area into a parking lot. Of course after that a lot of whining ensued and Israel had to pull back. But the end result is Hezbollah got the message. By admission of the Hezbollah leader himself he said he would never have done it if he knew it would spark such a reaction from the Israelis.

It happened in Gaza, of course, and to a great extent than it ever happened in Southern Lebanon, because Gaza is such a confined area, whereas Southern Lebanon is not - fighters could move east in Shebaa Farms or north into Bekaa.

You don't say which incursion into Lebanon you mean, but obviously the area was never "turned into a parking lot" the way parts of Gaza were. If you mean 1980, then as I mentioned earlier - this saw membership in Hezbollah increase 400%.

Gaza wasn't "turned into a parkig lot". But the application of strong retaliation did stop the escalating attacks out of Gaza. Such a retaliatory policy is effective, but lasts only for so long.
In the long run a complete shut off of Israel from the Palestinian territories is a first form of defense (see the very effective barrier along the West Bank) coupled with finding strong enough partners in the Palestinian territories willing to engage the terrorists. This last part is the most difficult of course.

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde -

I wouldn't have said "a carp park", but in parts of Gaza the rate of destruction was compared with that of Stalingrad in WWII - in one district some 65% of buildings were damaged. This is greater than the destruction visited upon Hanoi in the Viet Nam war by some distance, and right up there with some of the most greivous acts of wholesale destruction in history - Rotterdam, Dresden and Nanking, for instance.

I do agree that leveling an area has the short term effect of stopping terror attacks, but in the long term it may well create more. It escalates the conflict, and in some ways justifies the use of terror.

It's a pointless act on wanton destruction and is not intended as a marker towards peace.

 

[Artevelde]

Artevelde -

I wouldn't have said "a carp park", but in parts of Gaza the rate of destruction was compared with that of Stalingrad in WWII - in one district some 65% of buildings were damaged. This is greater than the destruction visited upon Hanoi in the Viet Nam war by some distance, and right up there with some of the most greivous acts of wholesale destruction in history - Rotterdam, Dresden and Nanking, for instance.

I do agree that leveling an area has the short term effect of stopping terror attacks, but in the long term it may well create more. It escalates the conflict, and in some ways justifies the use of terror.

It's a pointless act on wanton destruction and is not intended as a marker towards peace.

I'm sorry, but comparing what happened in Gaza to the bombing of Dresden or even worse, the massacres in Nanking, is simply completely ridiculous, if not offensive. The number of civilian casualtiesc in Gaza was very slight and the destruction was pretty limited.
When somebody launches non-stop missile attacks they must expect appropriate retaliation. Otherwise the attacks just increase. What exactly would have been the alternative? For the Israeli government to do nothing?

 

[Lipush]

Satan's efforts never cease. That's why.

Or we could consider something I was told in Israel:

How do you create a terrorist?

You kill his father, you arrest his brother, and you bulldoze his house.

Terrorism is a bulldozer at my front door. ~ Palestinian poet

Or a Gush Kattif settler.

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde -

I can't agree. While the number of civilian casualities was not terrible (around 2,000 Palestinian lives), I would hardly call that very slight - it is higher than the entire first Nagorno Karabakh war, for instance.

There are still people dying from exposure to the depleted uranium (and white phosphorus) used by Israel as well - almost all are children and infants.

I think we can assume that if Palestinians used depleted uranium against Israeli civilian targets - you'd be appalled. I know I would be.

Here is an overview of the damage - again. remember this is a confined area, with few avenues of escape for civilians.

Early estimates by independent contractors in Gaza say that Gaza lost nearly $2 billion in assets, including 4,000 homes destroyed.[354] The IDF destroyed 600–700 factories, small industries, workshops and business enterprises throughout the Gaza Strip,[355] 24 mosques, 31 security compounds, and 10 water or sewage lines.[356] The World Health Organization said that 34 health facilities (8 hospitals and 26 primary health care clinics) were damaged over the course of the offensive and the UNOCHA said that over 50 United Nations facilities sustained damage, of which 28 reported damage in the first three days of the operation.[357] On 22 January 2010, Israel paid $10.5 million in compensation to the United Nations for damages to UN property incurred during the Israeli offensive.[358]

A satellite-based damage assessment of the Gaza Strip by the United Nations revealed 2,692 destroyed and severely damaged buildings, 220 impact craters on roads and bridges with an estimated length of 167 km (104 mi) of paved and unpaved roads damaged, 714 impact craters on open ground or cultivated land with an estimated land area of 2,100 hectares (21 km²), 187 greenhouses completely destroyed or severely damaged with an estimated area of 28 hectares (0.28 km²), and 2,232 hectares (22.32 km²) of demolished zones targeted by IDF bulldozers, tanks and phosphorus shelling.[359]

Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Saigon]

. What exactly would have been the alternative?

The alternative would have been a move towards a full and complete peace settlement, backed by the ongoing use of drones and surveillance to take out rocket launchers.

 

[Artevelde]

Artevelde -

I can't agree. While the number of civilian casualities was not terrible (around 2,000 Palestinian lives), I would hardly call that very slight - it is higher than the entire first Nagorno Karabakh war, for instance.

There are still people dying from exposure to the depleted uranium (and white phosphorus) used by Israel as well - almost all are children and infants.

I think we can assume that if Palestinians used depleted uranium against Israeli civilian targets - you'd be appalled. I know I would be.

Here is an overview of the damage - again. remember this is a confined area, with few avenues of escape for civilians.

Early estimates by independent contractors in Gaza say that Gaza lost nearly $2 billion in assets, including 4,000 homes destroyed.[354] The IDF destroyed 600–700 factories, small industries, workshops and business enterprises throughout the Gaza Strip,[355] 24 mosques, 31 security compounds, and 10 water or sewage lines.[356] The World Health Organization said that 34 health facilities (8 hospitals and 26 primary health care clinics) were damaged over the course of the offensive and the UNOCHA said that over 50 United Nations facilities sustained damage, of which 28 reported damage in the first three days of the operation.[357] On 22 January 2010, Israel paid $10.5 million in compensation to the United Nations for damages to UN property incurred during the Israeli offensive.[358]

A satellite-based damage assessment of the Gaza Strip by the United Nations revealed 2,692 destroyed and severely damaged buildings, 220 impact craters on roads and bridges with an estimated length of 167 km (104 mi) of paved and unpaved roads damaged, 714 impact craters on open ground or cultivated land with an estimated land area of 2,100 hectares (21 km²), 187 greenhouses completely destroyed or severely damaged with an estimated area of 28 hectares (0.28 km²), and 2,232 hectares (22.32 km²) of demolished zones targeted by IDF bulldozers, tanks and phosphorus shelling.[359]

Gaza War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A very large percentage of those killed were Hamas police and Hamas fighters, i.e. combattants. Comparing this to Nanking or Dresden is a perverse and disgusting travesty.

 

[Artevelde]

. What exactly would have been the alternative?

The alternative would have been a move towards a full and complete peace settlement, backed by the ongoing use of drones and surveillance to take out rocket launchers.

Hamas, which rules Gaza, doesn't want peace and wants to destroy Israel.

Basically, your solution would mean Israel would simply have to reverse it's withdrawal from Gaza and again occupy it. I don't think this is going to happen and it would not be smart in any event.

Just shooting back at the places where rockets are launched from would mean that Israel would indeed have to completely obliterate Gaza killing many tens of thousands. Also not really a smart idea.

 

[Saigon]

A very large percentage of those killed were Hamas police and Hamas fighters, i.e. combattants. Comparing this to Nanking or Dresden is a perverse and disgusting travesty.

I did not compare the event with Dresden - I compared the rate of destruction of buildings (as a percentage of the total). I used this only to demonstrate that the impact of bombing was extremely high in some areas.

Many of those killed were combatants, I agree. And I genuinely believe Israel intended to target combatants.

But the majority of the dead were civilians.

Their brothers, cousins and children will likely be the next generation of terrorists.

 

[Saigon]

Hamas, which rules Gaza, doesn't want peace and wants to destroy Israel.

Basically, your solution would mean Israel would simply have to reverse it's withdrawal from Gaza and again occupy it. I don't think this is going to happen and it would not be smart in any event.

.

No, not at all - I suggest a far more complex arrangement than that, one largely marginalizing Hamas and with the West Bank as the key.

This is a complex issue - it is not suited to simple one line solutions. I don't have time to outline it here, but it might make a good thread some other day.