What is your background/interest in the Middle East?

[P F Tinmore]

I know, let's have both sides agree to stop attacking each other. How about both sides at the very least agree that deliberately attacking non-combatants is off limits. What about both sides agreeing that the other side has the right to exist? How's that for a start? When you see one side that refuses to agree to even try that much you know which side to blame for the on-going bloodshed.

How about both sides at the very least agree that deliberately attacking non-combatants is off limits.

Hamas has already made that offer to Israel. Israel rejected it.

Link?

And how about the part where they both agree that the other side has the right to exist?

In 2003 we went to Cairo. The Egyptians asked whether Hamas is ready to stop the martyrdom operations or not. We gave the Egyptians a better offer. We were ready to have an agreement to stop targeting civilians [on] both sides. The army is supposed to fight, but civilians should be out of it. The Egyptians agreed and passed it on to the Israelis.

Halevi went back to Israel, but Sharon rejected the proposal.

A Dialogue with Hamas - Part 1 - Worldpress.org

And how about the part where they both agree that the other side has the right to exist?

Arafat did that during Oslo. Israel has not reciprocated.

When you see one side that refuses to agree to even try that much you know which side to blame for the on-going bloodshed.

Amen

 

[Unkotare]

I should have known the pro-terrorist types like you would lie and dissemble when given the chance. Do you think you're fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled, fool?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I should have known the pro-terrorist types like you would lie and dissemble when given the chance. Do you think you're fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled, fool?

You asked for a link I gave you one.

Would you like another?

 

[Roudy]

I should have known the pro-terrorist types like you would lie and dissemble when given the chance. Do you think you're fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled, fool?

Tiny Brain uses whatever means it can to defend the Hamas animals. Dont give tiny a hard time. Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization by the US state dept and most other civilized world nations. So Tiny is defending the indefensible. It has to lie and deceive. What else can it do?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I should have known the pro-terrorist types like you would lie and dissemble when given the chance. Do you think you're fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled, fool?

Tiny Brain uses whatever means it can to defend the Hamas animals. Dont give tiny a hard time. Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization by the US state dept and most other civilized world nations. So Tiny is defending the indefensible. It has to lie and deceive. What else can it do?

Terrorists attack civilians.

In fact, Hamas did not work to target civilians. It is so simple if you want to do that. However, Hamas does not target schools, cinemas, hospitals, which the Israelis have done all the time.

The main question was about the settlers: Are they civilians or not? According to the Geneva Accord they are not. Even according to the Israelis they are not.

A Dialogue with Hamas - Part 1 - Worldpress.org

That Israeli terrorist name calling thing is just propaganda.

 

[Saigon]

What form of punishment do the Palestinians engage in when they shoot rockets into Israeli cities or send suicide bombers into children's schools and pizza parlors? I think you have some type of virus in your brain that makes you see everything upside down. Or perhaps you read from and follow the Mein Kampf I mean Koran.

Roudy -

Sending suicide bomber into a school is an act of terrorism.

Bulldozing all of the fields surrounding the village the terrorist lived in is an active of collective punishment. Arresting and detaining 20 young men from the village as a warning is an act of colletive punishment.

You will never get to Square One in this debate unless you can understand why both are both morally indefensible, and why both are counter-productive.

 

[Saigon]

Attack on civilians must stop when both sides respect it here. People cannot come here, expect me to feel empathy for a Palestinian mother or child, when missiles are falling in my town. There is a limit to how much people can be assholes.

Yes, I agree. When I lived in Dan I felt the same way.

Which is why I think it is even more important that those of us who live in safety and free from the thread of katyusha can also feel empathy for all civilians, on all sides.

All attacks against civilians are wrong.

 

[Roudy]

What form of punishment do the Palestinians engage in when they shoot rockets into Israeli cities or send suicide bombers into children's schools and pizza parlors? I think you have some type of virus in your brain that makes you see everything upside down. Or perhaps you read from and follow the Mein Kampf I mean Koran.

Roudy -

Sending suicide bomber into a school is an act of terrorism.

Bulldozing all of the fields surrounding the village the terrorist lived in is an active of collective punishment. Arresting and detaining 20 young men from the village as a warning is an act of colletive punishment.

You will never get to Square One in this debate unless you can understand why both are both morally indefensible, and why both are counter-productive.

Bulldozing a terrorists house is morally indefensible? Here in the US when you commit mass murder, the govt. will also make you compensate monetarily to the victims families. That compensation can include your house and any assets you have, and those that aided and abetted you. Israel no longer bulldozes terrorist's houses, but even if they did at one time, I think that is pretty light punishment in comparison to what the perpetrator does. Your comparison and putting on the same level, an Islamist animal taking innocent children's lives, to Israel's destruction of the perpetrators property is what is morally reprehensible in my opinion, and it is useful idiots like you that the Islamists prey on to deceive the world. Look up terrorist appeaser in the dictionary, you might find your image next to it. Everytime you explain yourself you prove even further how ignorant you are of Muslim mentality.

 

[Saigon]

Roudy -

As is so often the case, you are missing the point. I'll try again:

Bulldozing a terrorists house is fine with me.

Bulldozing the entire street, and the houses of 20 innocent familes, is an act of collective punishment.

Bulldozing the crops of an entire village is an act of collective punishment.

 

[Roudy]

I should have known the pro-terrorist types like you would lie and dissemble when given the chance. Do you think you're fooling anyone who doesn't want to be fooled, fool?

Tiny Brain uses whatever means it can to defend the Hamas animals. Dont give tiny a hard time. Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization by the US state dept and most other civilized world nations. So Tiny is defending the indefensible. It has to lie and deceive. What else can it do?

Terrorists attack civilians.

In fact, Hamas did not work to target civilians. It is so simple if you want to do that. However, Hamas does not target schools, cinemas, hospitals, which the Israelis have done all the time.

The main question was about the settlers: Are they civilians or not? According to the Geneva Accord they are not. Even according to the Israelis they are not.

A Dialogue with Hamas - Part 1 - Worldpress.org

That Israeli terrorist name calling thing is just propaganda.

No Hamas and Hezbollah really are terrorists. Complaining about calling them terrorists is the same as complaining about calling Al Queda terrorist.

 

[Saigon]

Terrorists attack civilians.


That Israeli terrorist name calling thing is just propaganda.

I don't agree with that - Hamas have attacked civilians on numerous occasions.

I certainly consider both Hamas and Hezbollah to be terrorist organisations because they both have military wings which commit acts of terror - much like the IRA with the wider Sinn Fein organisation.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah also do a lot of good work with their own people (providing relief aid, housing, healthcare), but that does not mean they do not also commit acts of terror.

 

[Lipush]

Has Israel ever told you why those rockets come out of Gaza?

Of course not.

As the small person, I don't really care for the reason of the Gaza rockets being fired as much as the Palestinian doesn't care for the reason why Gaza is attacked by the IDF.

I just want it to stop. I really don't care about the logic behind the insanity of the situation i'm living in. YOU outsiders look for reason or logic. In time of war, where we live in, we don't try to find reasoning. We simply live.

That is what separate you from us. after you turn off your computer, you go living your life in the good ol' American movie. -We- live in the same situation in which we discuss.

You get me now?

OK, but what have you done to stop the war or do you just support it?

'Support a war'?

Are you high?

Didn't I say that I'm a southern and that missiles are falling in my town?

Why on earth will I SUPPORT the war?

And WHO DOES THAT, anyway? I don't know of any people who support the war.

And what did I do to stop it? Truthfully, not much. you've got any ideas? I'm out of any.

 

[Roudy]

Roudy -

As is so often the case, you are missing the point. I'll try again:

Bulldozing a terrorists house is fine with me.

Bulldozing the entire street, and the houses of 20 innocent familes, is an act of collective punishment.

Bulldozing the crops of an entire village is an act of collective punishment.

Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism. Your appeasement mindset will never work with Islamists and will be interpreted as a sign of weakness which will only embolden the enemy. Not too long ago, Israel evacuated Gaza and gave the Palestinians their wish, made it Jew free. It forcibly removed it's own citizens from the land it had conquered in a defensive war. You would expect some appreciation and gratitute for this step, and some good will in return from the Palestinians. But as expected and predicted, the Palestinians proved once again, that they were and will never be interested in peace with Israel. The evacuation of Gaza also proved that it is not land alone that will appease the Palestinians. It became clear to Israel and the world, through subsequent actions of the Palestinians in Gaza (rocket shootings, terrorism, the usual savagery, etc., ALL TOTALLY UNPROVOKED) that it is the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews that will only satisfy them. And the only land that will satisfy the Palestinians will be the entire land that the state of Israel sits on.

I don't see what the problem really is here. The Palestinian Hamas leaders keep telling the Muslim world in Arabic that they will never accept Israel's right to exist, never honor any agreement until the entire "Zionist Entity" is destoyed and instead an Islamist Kalifate of Palestine replaces it. Their charter also clearly calls for the destruction of Israel and massacre of Jews (it is important to note that Hamas wants all Jews, Israeli or not, dead). And quite clearly, they are following their charter and ideology to the T. Yet somehow, there are morons like you, that keep telling us non of this matters much, Israel is to ignore all of this and trust these animals as honorable and peaceful people, and reward the Hamas savages with even more land, that isn't there's to begin with. Only a person on drugs or totally delusional would this way. Either way, you're dreaming. With every day that passes by, there will be less land to talk about. Time is against the Palestinian side. When Iran and Syria collapse, so will the financing and sponsorship of Palestinian terror. Their hand is weakening by the minute.

 

[Roudy]

Terrorists attack civilians.


That Israeli terrorist name calling thing is just propaganda.

I don't agree with that - Hamas have attacked civilians on numerous occasions.

I certainly consider both Hamas and Hezbollah to be terrorist organisations because they both have military wings which commit acts of terror - much like the IRA with the wider Sinn Fein organisation.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah also do a lot of good work with their own people (providing relief aid, housing, healthcare), but that does not mean they do not also commit acts of terror.

For once I agree with you. But you are missing the whole point of those charity organizations that do "good" initially, deviously gaining people's trust, it is to take control of the people and their welfare, before they impose their will and ideology upon them by force.

 

[Saigon]

Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism..

Of course it has - on literally hundreds - if not thousands - of occasions!!

Honestly - how can you not know this stuff, and still be too lazy to check?

You can find information on this in dozens of authoritive books, and on hundreds of websites. There is a very fine line between making mistakes because you have not seen the facts, and being deliberately ignorant. I did suggest a book by an Israeli author earlier which provides immense detail - presumably you chose not to read it.

Here is a piece of video - at about 1 minute in, you can see troops destroying crops by hand.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1to70X0FNlo]Israeli Police Invade, Destroy vegetable crops and Cut off water supply - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Saigon]

Roudy -

Here is another story about Christian Nuns who are being cut off from their crops and livelihood.

Again, this is collective punishment, and is directed against innocent people.

BBC News - Bethlehem nuns in West Bank barrier battle

 

[P F Tinmore]

Terrorists attack civilians.


That Israeli terrorist name calling thing is just propaganda.

I don't agree with that - Hamas have attacked civilians on numerous occasions.

I certainly consider both Hamas and Hezbollah to be terrorist organisations because they both have military wings which commit acts of terror - much like the IRA with the wider Sinn Fein organisation.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah also do a lot of good work with their own people (providing relief aid, housing, healthcare), but that does not mean they do not also commit acts of terror.

It is misleading to say that Hamas attacks civilians. "Civilian" is not the definitive term in international law. The term used is protected persons. Not all civilians are protected persons. Active militants, for example, are not protected persons even though they are civilians. Only when protected persons are targeted is it terrorism.

The nationals of an occupying power (in this case Israeli citizens) are also exempt from the protected persons class.

 

[Saigon]

But you are missing the whole point of those charity organizations that do "good" initially, deviously gaining people's trust, it is to take control of the people and their welfare, before they impose their will and ideology upon them by force.

Honestly, what utter, childish nonsense!! Why do you post guesses when you don't have a clue?

Both Hamas and Hezbollah provide services to citizens who live within their areas of operation, because both are de facto governments in those areas. They also provided services as quasi-NGOs prior to forming de facto governments.

Hezbollah have become hugely and genuinely popular in Southern Lebanon because in many villages are are the only authority which seem to make any effort to help people - why not go and see for yourself?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel is not bulldozing crops of fields or an entire street in retaliation for terrorism..

Of course it has - on literally hundreds - if not thousands - of occasions!!

Honestly - how can you not know this stuff, and still be too lazy to check?

You can find information on this in dozens of authoritive books, and on hundreds of websites. There is a very fine line between making mistakes because you have not seen the facts, and being deliberately ignorant. I did suggest a book by an Israeli author earlier which provides immense detail - presumably you chose not to read it.

Here is a piece of video - at about 1 minute in, you can see troops destroying crops by hand.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1to70X0FNlo]Israeli Police Invade, Destroy vegetable crops and Cut off water supply - YouTube[/ame]

That is true. Israel has bulldozed about 30% of Gaza's agricultural land.

 

[Artevelde]

But you are missing the whole point of those charity organizations that do "good" initially, deviously gaining people's trust, it is to take control of the people and their welfare, before they impose their will and ideology upon them by force.

Honestly, what utter, childish nonsense!! Why do you post guesses when you don't have a clue?

Both Hamas and Hezbollah provide services to citizens who live within their areas of operation, because both are de facto governments in those areas. They also provided services as quasi-NGOs prior to forming de facto governments.

Hezbollah have become hugely and genuinely popular in Southern Lebanon because in many villages are are the only authority which seem to make any effort to help people - why not go and see for yourself?

This is true. It doesn't change the fact that both are murderous terrorist organizations with whom no compromise is possible.