What should abortion laws be?

[Yukon]

Mr Bass is nothing but your atypical Negro who wishes he were white. They are all the same.

 

[JD_2B]

Just because the person had sex, does not mean that the person CONSENTED to getting that disease.. just the same way that a person who had sex did not consent to getting pregnant

So a baby is an STD to be cured with homicide?

Nope- Nobody is saying that a FETUS is an STD. And homicide is a legal term, reserved for actual people.
An embryo is the result of any kind of sex, whether that is wanted or unwanted, drug induced, drunk, between a minor and an adult, familial members and their kin, etc, etc, etc.. And in NO situation does having SEX mean that someone wanted to get pregnant, or that they should have to stay that way. Grasping at straws seems to be your sole "mode of argumentation" and my darling- it is not exactly convincing.

"Putting the kids first", is the BIGGEST mistake that parents make these days.

That doesn't make the least bit of sense.

That is because you chose to ignore the rest of what I wrote, the full paragraph or two worth of information pertaining to a person needing another person who CAN and DOES take care of themselves, to be PHYSICALLY capable of taking care of another actual person. Take it or leave it, but that is reality.

Yes, it is. Most pregnancies are done so the woman can continue being a slut and having unprotected sex at the night club. Almost none are ever done in cases of rape or incest and a small minority are medically necessary.

Soooo.. The 2/3rds of pregnancies aborted by women who already have children are all a result of sluttiness, and men are never sluts, because they CANT control their DICKS??? What a bunch of fucking horseshit. Sorry, sugar, but women are NOT and never WILL be, your sexual gatekeepers. If a man wants to be sure that every bit of his semen that is used to fertilize a woman's egg is actually brought to term, and ensure that he is not denied his parental rights and responsibilities, then HE can also AVOID going to nightclubs and jamming it in to any drunk thing in a skirt. It takes two to tango. Talk about personal responsibility- You clearly have none.

You're a fucking moron. Get your head out of your girlfriend's muff, put down the militant neo-feminist flyer and pay attention. Just because he doesn't think some Skinhead should be allowed to kill blacks on sight doesn't mean he doesn't believe in self-defense; just because he doesn't believe you should kill your baby ay time it gets in the way of your sex life and binge drinking doesn't make him some misogynistic woman beater, you idiot.

He is just as much of a misogynist as you are, but I think that this is all a mere digression from what is actually going on. You and him both have some contempt for woman, on a very deep level, and so, you believe that it is all the woman's fault and responsibility that there is a pregnancy. If that is CORRECT, then her having an abortion is entirely outside of your own control. If it is HEr responsibility to handle the situation, then it is DEFINITELY NOT yours.
You decide- Either pay the fucking child support in full, every fucking week, or let her abort. Oh and stop being such a DOUCHEBAG while you are at it. Tool!!!

Go read some Kate O'Beirne or Betty Friedan- maybe they can cure you of the stupidity you've been infected with by the militant lesbian man-haters whom you borrow your 'argument' (read: hate speech) from.

Amazon.com: Women Who Make the World Worse: and How Their Radical Feminist Assault Is Ruining Our Schools, Families, Military, and Sports (9781595230096): Kate O'Beirne: Books

Actually, chances are, I have more males standing in line trying to get some of this, than you have male family members, bucko. The lesbian hate rhetoric does not work on me. But nice try anyways.

No dummy, wolves and dogs are not the same species.

Do you know what a subspecies is? No? Thought not.

Tell us again how Fido got you pregnant and you had his puppies.

Moron again. Start reading posts in their entirety before making a fool of yourself, why dont ya.

You accept rape because you want to discourage women from making their own decisions freely

YOu have any evidence he supports rape? No? You're lying again? Thought so.

He said himself that he does, you cocksucking illiterate.

Just you you know, YOU ARE NOT A FEMINIST. FEMINISM WAS ABOUT EQUALITY BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN. THE FIRST AND SECOND-WAVE FEMINISTS WHO FOUGHT FOR SUFFRAGE AND EQUALITY IN THE WORKPLACE HAVE LONG STOOD IN OPPOSITION TO FAR LEFT SEXIST FEMINAZI SCUM LIKE YOU, BECAUSE YOU UNDERMINE THE VERY PRINCIPLES UPON WHICH TRUE FEMINISM WAS FOUNDED. YOU ARE TO FEMINISM WHAT THE BLACK PANTHERS AND CHARLIE BASS ARE TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT OF DR KING ET AL.

Just so YOU know, abortion and pregnancy in and of themselves, have absolutely nothing to do with equal rights, and nobody on here has claimed otherwise, besides you, in a meager attempt to dodge the issue, and throw psycho slasher ad hominems at me, as if that is somehow going to help your side of the debate some. Pregnancy is an entirely FEMALE issue, and men simply have no place in deciding what happens to a woman during her pregnancy. If this was the case, then all women would be subjected to fines and criminal negligence charges for not taking their fucking prenatal vitamins. Grow the fuck up and realize that YOU do not get to control the inner workings of our bodies, or our thoughts and minds.

Now grow the fuck up, little girl, and show some personal responsibility- you know, like you want to poor drunk bastard who nailed your ass when you're begging for that child support check.

No darling- my child was born in wedlock. Nice try, again, loser. You just SUCK at this whole debate thing. Don't quit your day job.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

pregnant

So a baby is an STD to be cured with homicide?

Nope- Nobody is saying that a FETUS is an STD

OSo you recant your moronic assertion?

. And homicide is a legal term, reserved for actual people.

Murder and manslaughter are strictly legal terms. Not so with homicide. Homicide is the killing of (especially) a human by another human or (more loosely) of any creature by its own species (homo-same + cide -killing, to kill)

An embryo is the result of any kind of sex

We'll add sex ed to the list of classes you skipped.

Soooo.. The 2/3rds of pregnancies aborted by women who already have children are all a result of sluttiness

Most of them. The rest are mostly stupidity. Kinda hard to get pregnant accidently nowadays, what with condoms, the pill, spermicidal foam, the morning-after pill... It's very rare.

If a man wants to be sure that every bit of his semen that is used to fertilize a woman's egg is actually brought to term, and ensure that he is not denied his parental rights and responsibilities, then HE can also AVOID going to nightclubs and jamming it in to any drunk thing in a skirt

If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant, she can avoid going to nightclubs, getting drunk, and getting gangbanged in the bathroom- or however it was you got knocked up, if you're not blaming Fido anymore. Funny... we advocate responsibility for all parties. Youm want men to bear all the responsibily and act like it's some crime to expect women to be capable of adult thought. Do you not realizee that you're tereating women like stupid little sex toys incapable of exercising self restraint? Again, you spit on the very principles of femism in your attempt to demonize men.

He is just as much of a misogynist as you are

Yep, I'm a misogynist- that's why my partners tend to be somewhat more dominant in the relationship, I have more female than male friends, and I have supported multiple attempts to pass laws that would push gender equality in the workplace.

 

[Bern80]

No darling- my child was born in wedlock. Nice try, again, loser. You just SUCK at this whole debate thing. Don't quit your day job.

You're the funny one. YOU are the one who claimed it's okay to abort a baby under the premise that child in the womb is not sentient. Problem is you didn't actually look up the meaning of the word first. You're gonna have to come back with another lame excuse to kill a human being, because that one doesn't fly. You should figure out the ridiculousness of your position when even Roe v. Wade doesn't support your extreme stance.

 

[JD_2B]

BTW, if your child's father is deceased and paternity was established before his death (child support order should do it) then your underaged child is entitled to survivor's benefits. And it's quite a chunk. Call your local social security office.

Yeah!! Thanks- He already gets death benefits- but he has to share with the four other kids that his so called dad "serial fathered" as well. Amazing, his dad- Speaking of whores, Daddy-O had COUNT THEM- Five kids (mine was the first, and the only one within wedlock) with FOUR moms. Un-fucking real.

My son gets less money through death benefits than he would have gotten from the minimal child support order his dad started paying from birth. Considering the 35K in back child support owed, also, I will come out in the negative, anyways.
It's okay though- The death benefit comes every month on the same day, and I know it can be counted on, which is more than I can say for his dad- ever. Good riddance to him. I am only sorry that it was a stroke. He was 30 when he had it- and had JUST turned 30. That creates a serious family history for my son, and a major health risk. Ever since, we have been especially careful about eating habits and exercise. Daddy was a fatty, and I do not want my little pumkin to balloon out into a full fledged pumpkin like his dickweed dad. Obviously that could lead to early death for my son, so I am doing everything possible to steer him clear of that kind of tragedy.

But yea- thanks for the information. How considerate of you, for thinking about that and sharing. =)

 

[JD_2B]

No darling- my child was born in wedlock. Nice try, again, loser. You just SUCK at this whole debate thing. Don't quit your day job.

You're the funny one. YOU are the one who claimed it's okay to abort a baby under the premise that child in the womb is not sentient. Problem is you didn't actually look up the meaning of the word first. You're gonna have to come back with another lame excuse to kill a human being, because that one doesn't fly. You should figure out the ridiculousness of your position when even Roe v. Wade doesn't support your extreme stance.

As long as we live in a society that bases the bulk of their decision making on emotion, rather than logic, then this type of conundrum will never change. People like you who would prefer to do 90% of their thinking through their sensory organs, rather than with the one thing that, underneath all those big feelings, tells them that they are JUST not quite all the way right about something- That would be your brain, by the way- then they will always presume whatever based on whatever happens to cause any soreness of feelings.

The fact remains- there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest that sentience exists in a fetus, any more than there is evidence of a more philosophical nature that suggests that the newly fertilized egg can know it is alive, either.

And even IF we could measure something like that- the fetal version of how information is processed and understood- it does not detract from the matter of that fetus still being prone to every single damned thing that the woman in whom it gestates is also prone to, and then some. Thus, it is not, in my opinion, a person, or anything deserving of rights or entitlements.

I am sorry if you disagree. I know that my stance is extreme.. but in cases of autonomy, you are either for it, or against it. Lets be real, then:

I am for it during 100% of a person's pregnancy and life.

You are only for it, under certain circumstances that you wish to dictate to that person, and for only certain periods of time during that person's life.

Clearly, this amounts to one of us being pro individual freedom, and another one being pro governmental freedom to dictate. The latter is the most tyrannic ideology known to mankind, and is EXACTLY the thing that I am fighting against.

Big Brother- Go jump off a cliff.

Case closed.

 

[dilloduck]

DO you drive over the speed limit too?

 

[Immanuel]

BTW, if your child's father is deceased and paternity was established before his death (child support order should do it) then your underaged child is entitled to survivor's benefits. And it's quite a chunk. Call your local social security office.

Yeah!! Thanks- He already gets death benefits- but he has to share with the four other kids that his so called dad "serial fathered" as well. Amazing, his dad- Speaking of whores, Daddy-O had COUNT THEM- Five kids (mine was the first, and the only one within wedlock) with FOUR moms. Un-fucking real.

My son gets less money through death benefits than he would have gotten from the minimal child support order his dad started paying from birth. Considering the 35K in back child support owed, also, I will come out in the negative, anyways.
It's okay though- The death benefit comes every month on the same day, and I know it can be counted on, which is more than I can say for his dad- ever. Good riddance to him. I am only sorry that it was a stroke. He was 30 when he had it- and had JUST turned 30. That creates a serious family history for my son, and a major health risk. Ever since, we have been especially careful about eating habits and exercise. Daddy was a fatty, and I do not want my little pumkin to balloon out into a full fledged pumpkin like his dickweed dad. Obviously that could lead to early death for my son, so I am doing everything possible to steer him clear of that kind of tragedy.

But yea- thanks for the information. How considerate of you, for thinking about that and sharing. =)

I'm not sure, but it sounds to me like Allie's "survivor benefits" and what you call "death benefits" might be one in the same, so your son might already be receiving all he will get.

Now... please don't take this wrong, but from the description of "Daddy-O", I think you picked a real loser. I can only guess at the answer to this, but (if you don't feel this is too personal) was he still married to you when some or all of the others children came along?

Happy New Year Lawyer_to_Be may this year bring tons of joy to you and your son,

Immie

 

[JD_2B]

LOL!! Again, you miss the point.. Any fetus sucking it's thumb, will have brain activity in specific areas of the brain. Of course it will.. That does not indicate sentience. It only indicates that the brain is functional, and that the reflex of thumb sucking has been activated. With "dreams", memories being activated also does not mean that the fetus has achieved sentience, just because the brain registers memories. We have no way of even knowing if or how those memories/ reflexes are processed. This AGAIN (lather, rinse, keep repeating) is NOT some clear indicator of sentience. You are grasping at straws bud.

You're the one grasping dear. What REAL evidence do you have that a baby is somehow less sentient minutes before it born than after? We all get that your OPINION (made simply for the sake of the most convenient rationalization) is that sentients is defined by breathing on your own. Unfortunately that is not how sentients is defined;

sen·tient (snshnt, -sh-nt) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

Having sense perception; conscious:

Experiencing sensation or feeling.

Breathing is not what kick starts sentients. A baby has all of those things well before they reach birth at full term.

PROVE that is is CONSCIOUS, and not merely having neurological REFLEXES. Having a REFLEX does not make one conscious. As such, it does not make one sentient.
Having a reflex WILL cause the brain to activate. Of course it will. Our ability to SEE that the brain caused a reflex does not mean that the organism is conscious of that activity.

Consent to sex =/= consent to pregnancy.

Actually, yes it does. You choose the behavior, you choose the consequences of it. If you consent to sex you consent to the possible outcomes of having sex. One of the potential consequences of sex is pregnancy.

One of the potential consequences of driving is having an accident. Should those be left untreated? Risk of result =/= consent to unwanted result.

Walking around in a shower room can cause athlete's foot.. but hey- If the person took that risk, then they should just live with it. Only the people that the fungus catching shower room walker gave that fungus to, unwillingly, should be allowed to get treatment for such a thing. /cough- BULLSHIT!/

Consent to sex does not mean that a person consents to getting HIV, the clap, herpes, crabs, etc, etc, etc.. And it ALSO does not mean that the person consents to becoming pregnant.

Most people here understand that libs like yourself have extreme aversions to being held accountable for actions.

I am a libertarian. When I paid for my abortion, I was being extremely accountable for my actions, thank you very much. I do not ask or expect anyone else to pay for the unwanted results of my actions. THAT IS accountability. You don't have to like that, but it is the truth.

Most of us here have offered reasonable scenarios under which this potential consequence can be dealt with without bring a child to term. Have an abortion in the first trimester before the fertilized egg can be remotely considered a human being.

Not even remotely?? Oh I just gotta add a little fuel to your emotive fire here.. Check these pictures of very graphic fetal porn, here- these are aborted fetuses that SURE LOOK HUMAN TO ME. The thing is, I do not LET my EMOTIONS dictate to me what is a PERSON and what is not, based on the appearance of something. Dead people look human, too. After all, they are humans. But they are not alive. Just because they have a face, does not mean that they are alive or sentient or anything else that would trump my rights to dominion over MY uterus, which by the way, is NOT SHARED by you.

Graphic!! Enjoy.. Go ahead.. have a fucking heart attack, now, you emotional trainwreck.

The Case Against Abortion: Abortion Pictures

If the mother's health or life is in jeopardy, she should be allowed to choose. So what does that leave that is so unreasonable to you?

The point is- in your little hate group against women, you anti abortionists will only "allow" a woman to do certain things under certain circumstances, none of which make a hill of beans difference to your own lives, and all of which can make a HUGE difference in that woman's life. YOU want to determine what is best for that woman, and when, and if she and her boyfriend or husband make an error even one time, and have unprotected sex, then she is automatically considered a whore, etc, etc, and a baby killer, yadda yadda.. and a barrage of other verbally abusive names to call her. If, however, she is VERY close to DEATH, or has had a man rape her (which she could have taken the plan B pill for) then and ONLY then, in those (individually- depending on the anti abortionist, of course) decidedly imminent situations, MAY a woman have an abortion without all the abuse from your team.
YES it is unreasonable. It SETS an expectation FOR abortion to happen in certain cases, and regardless of whether ONE woman felt like she HAD to do it, because her life was at stake, or another woman felt like SHE had to do it because she just was overwhelmed with her own life- you will ALWAYS be calling BOTH of those women baby killers, and causing a lot of pain in them that is undue and unnecessary, and yes- abusive.
It is ABUSE to try to control someone. It is using POWER And CONTROL OVER someone to try to pass laws stating that they can and cannot do X, Y and Z, except in situations as outlined as A, B, and C- as per the request of the majority of the population, the Supremes, WHATEVER.
The majority of the population is NOT experiencing that woman's life. They are NOT property owners of her body, and they do NOT have the right to tell her explicably what she shall have the right to do, or when. YES that is UNREASONABLE.

Essentially the only type of abortion us 'pro-lifers' are against is are one's where the mother is so irresponsible that she doesn't even bother to check to see if she's pregnant for three months THEN decides it's okay to kill her baby because now just isn't the most convenient time to have one. You're right JD. We are soooooo unreasonable.

And being on the brink of death is a pretty inconvenient time to "bother" to go ahead and TRY to birth it, as well.
PS- Do you realize how many women do not know they are pregnant until they are anywhere between 7 and 9 weeks along in gestation? A woman can ovulate at ANY TIME. ANY TIME includes WHILE she is on her period, even. When I got pregnant, I expected my period the next day, and believe it or not, I GOT it. It took about 11 or 12 years for me to get a logistical answer that even began to make sense to me, that my pregnancy could be 11 weeks along, when THAT period was, as far as I could tell, my LMP, and it didn't seem like I could have been that far along when I had the abortion. I am now certain that I was either 11 weeks along, or 7 weeks along, or possibly 10 or 12 weeks. I thought for a while that I just had a "floating ovulation cycle", a term I heard from a few docs, which meant that I had my ovulation for my NEXT period, the day BEFORE my period started from the last one. That had me thinking my abortion was at about 7 weeks. The clinic did not have high tech ultrasounds, but they could tell me it was my first trimester. I looked, and it was a tiny little blob of nothing as far as I could see.
Well, anyways, I talked to a couple of other docs who said that the bleeding could have NOT been a period, but was something called "breakthrough bleeding", a phenomenon that happens sometimes, early in the pregnancy. They said that this is usually just spotting, though. My period was heavy, and could not have possibly been breakthrough bleeding, because it was a lot more than some light spotting. Well, if it was breakthrough bleeding, then I would have been about 11 weeks along.
I am still convinced that it was a full fledged period, and so- I did not know until I was at least two months pregnant, that I was even pregnant. I had an irregular period, and never really kept track of it, because it came when it pleased. I actually found out during an annual well woman checkup, and was very lucky that I didn't NEED a couple of months to save up the money to pay to terminate that pregnancy. I used an entire two week paycheck to do it. Actually, I got a ride from a pro lifer who couldn't have kids of her own, and could not find my debit card, and since my appt was the day after payday, and it was on a Saturday, I could not just swing by the bank. She was so nice- she loaned me the money until Monday, when we went back to work and I would see her.
I was also pro life, before the moment I found out I was pregnant. As soon as I found out, I knew what I had to do, and that was to abort. I don't need to justify that to you or anyone. The reasons I had were justice enough for ME to make MY decision about MY body and MY life, and that is all that you need to know about it.

Everyone has their reasons, and being on one's death bed, just because YOU think that women are lazy bums who use abortion as some kind of a luxury posh lifestyle choice, is absolutely ridiculous- and a very convenient way of avoiding the actual issue of women making their own fucking choices for once, without fear of aggression and oppression.

When you actually have a uterus, you may actually understand this. 50% of all women, worldwide, experience an unexpected pregnancy in their lifetime. If you think that this is just some kind of tough shit situation, then YOU need to adjust your own moral compass, dude. I swear- sometimes I wish it were the men that had to go through with all this. I would rather work my fingers till they bleed every day in the fucking fields for 12 hours a day than to have to deal with an unwanted pregnancy again.

 

[Bern80]

As long as we live in a society that bases the bulk of their decision making on emotion, rather than logic, then this type of conundrum will never change. People like you who would prefer to do 90% of their thinking through their sensory organs, rather than with the one thing that, underneath all those big feelings, tells them that they are JUST not quite all the way right about something- That would be your brain, by the way- then they will always presume whatever based on whatever happens to cause any soreness of feelings.

On the contrary most people who know me would tell you that I'm probably objective and logical to a fault. You are the one trying convince all of us that a child is imbued with sentience within in mere seconds. Is that really logical or objective thinking?

The fact remains- there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest that sentience exists in a fetus, any more than there is evidence of a more philosophical nature that suggests that the newly fertilized egg can know it is alive, either.

The definition of sentient that I posted is straight out of the dictionary hon.

sen·tient (snshnt, -sh-nt) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

Having sense perception; conscious:

Experiencing sensation or feeling.

Either disagree with the the accepted dictionary definition or explain how it is you know, despite contrary evidence, that a child in the womb at no point experiences sensation and that it has no conciousness. You CLEARLY have no concept of biological development. You hold that a child in the womb at NO POINT has any of those characteristics. People like you make arguments without really understanding the things that must hold true for their arguments to be valid. To hold that a baby is not sentient until it draws breath REQUIRES that you believe, the biological precursors to the things that make one sentient occur in mere seconds. Tell us oh objective and logical one is that really what you believe?

And even IF we could measure something like that- the fetal version of how information is processed and understood- it does not detract from the matter of that fetus still being prone to every single damned thing that the woman in whom it gestates is also prone to, and then some. Thus, it is not, in my opinion, a person, or anything deserving of rights or entitlements.

You can't have it both ways hon. Now you're back pedaling on the whole sentients things and relegating your excuse to kill on the notion that a baby is not a person. So let's check the dictionary definition of that term according to the American Heritage dictionary. AND SURPRISE SURPRISE. AGAIN they disagree with you that there's a difference between being a human (which you did agree a child in the womb could be defined as) and being a person:


< persnickety persona >

per·son audio (pûrsn) KEY

NOUN:

1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.

I am sorry if you disagree. I know that my stance is extreme.. but in cases of autonomy, you are either for it, or against it. Lets be real, then:

Given that you know your position to be an extreme one and in the minority, even among those who would allow abortions under many circumstances one would think that a logical objective person as you claim to be would be introspective enough to conclude that since their opinion is held in such small minority that perhaps it is worth reexamining whether it is really valid or not. No matter what the issue is, abortion or otherwise, if the pulse of the world puts your opinion in the minority and in your case a very small minority, that fact alone should be enough for any an objective, logical person (as, again, you claim to be) to give pause and say 'gee, maybe I better I better ask myself some tough questions and make sure I'm on the right side of the truth.'

Clearly, this amounts to one of us being pro individual freedom, and another one being pro governmental freedom to dictate. The latter is the most tyrannic ideology known to mankind, and is EXACTLY the thing that I am fighting against.

Big Brother- Go jump off a cliff.

Case closed.

I guess one has to clap for one's self when no one else will. Case closed my ass. You haven't made one single remotely credible argument in this thread. AGAIN you know your position is extreme. Many people including myself, are okay with abortion in many circumstances. You are okay with it in any circumstance for the explicit reason that a child still in the womb is not a person or human. Yes you are right. One of us is pro indivudal freedom. The news to you will be IT ISN'T YOU. Because:

The definition of sentient does not agree with you.

The definition of person does not agree with you.

The vast majority of the human race does not agree with you.

Most scientists would not agree with you.

ROE v. WADE doesn't even agree with you.

 

[JD_2B]

BTW, if your child's father is deceased and paternity was established before his death (child support order should do it) then your underaged child is entitled to survivor's benefits. And it's quite a chunk. Call your local social security office.

Yeah!! Thanks- He already gets death benefits- but he has to share with the four other kids that his so called dad "serial fathered" as well. Amazing, his dad- Speaking of whores, Daddy-O had COUNT THEM- Five kids (mine was the first, and the only one within wedlock) with FOUR moms. Un-fucking real.

My son gets less money through death benefits than he would have gotten from the minimal child support order his dad started paying from birth. Considering the 35K in back child support owed, also, I will come out in the negative, anyways.
It's okay though- The death benefit comes every month on the same day, and I know it can be counted on, which is more than I can say for his dad- ever. Good riddance to him. I am only sorry that it was a stroke. He was 30 when he had it- and had JUST turned 30. That creates a serious family history for my son, and a major health risk. Ever since, we have been especially careful about eating habits and exercise. Daddy was a fatty, and I do not want my little pumkin to balloon out into a full fledged pumpkin like his dickweed dad. Obviously that could lead to early death for my son, so I am doing everything possible to steer him clear of that kind of tragedy.

But yea- thanks for the information. How considerate of you, for thinking about that and sharing. =)

I'm not sure, but it sounds to me like Allie's "survivor benefits" and what you call "death benefits" might be one in the same, so your son might already be receiving all he will get.

Now... please don't take this wrong, but from the description of "Daddy-O", I think you picked a real loser. I can only guess at the answer to this, but (if you don't feel this is too personal) was he still married to you when some or all of the others children came along?

Happy New Year Lawyer_to_Be may this year bring tons of joy to you and your son,

Immie

Yup!!! Shore was!!

I was 4 and a half months pregnant when we split up. He had gone into his usual rage routine, and decided to hit me a few times. It was the first time he had actually hit me, although since I became pregnant, he had pushed me, grabbed me, wrestled me, and thrown me around at least twice a week. My bad- I should have left him much sooner, People Change, yadda yadda... but back to your question..

So since I was early in my second trimester, and moved back home (a different city) early in my third trimester, during which time, my mother was in ICU for her cancer, and died.. Again, keeping on subject (my fucking second pregnancy, and it sucked even worse than the first) My husband started dating this one chick, and apparently was not using condoms with her (he had pulled the condoms off, for selfish reasons, I can only assume, with me) and then cheated on her with her sister, the day after sleeping with his girlfriend. Well, both of the sisters got pregnant, and decided to keep the babies. Soooo, Around the time that I actually filed for divorce, was the same time he was conceiving two babies. So fucking long story short, my son is a big brother to two girls who are only about 6 or 7 months younger than he is. Technically, I think we were divorced like a few weeks after his two sister-cousin kids came along, but honestly I am not really sure.
Then he had this other girlfriend who he was with for a couple of years, and had two more kids with. The first of these was conceived only about 7 months after the sister-cousin girls were born (the girls he conceived and had during our marriage- because they were born to sisters, they are not only half sisters, but are also cousins, as well, YUCK) and the second one came about a year and a half later.
I do not know of any other kids he may have out there, and the ones he does have, we do not maintain contact with, unfortunately. We have met the sister-cousins, that are my son's half sisters. I have photos of that, but then the one sister whose number we had, actually moved, and got married. The other woman, the one he had two other separate kids with, never liked me much, because my ex was always so fucking infatuated with me, and would always call me for emotional support and advice and write me these fucked up sick ass love letters and shit. So anyways, that lady and I have never talked to each other beyond me saying "Hi, this is >>>>name<<<<<, is Matt there, and may I speak with him, please?"- to which she would never even respond, just handed the phone over, all the while bitching at him for being civil to me and his other kids. That woman is such a bitch. Oh but he was a tool, too, because he would act like a douchebag and use her as his excuse for his absenteeism- not calling or sending child support, or a birthday card, etc. Every time my son saw his dad, it was on MY dime, and ME making time FOR the two of them to bond, which of course never worked out the way I hoped, because he was always fucking hitting on ME, and trying to send our son off to go play alone. Fucking douchebag asshole of a dickhead loser.

What a mess.

Sorry- but good riddance is right. I just can't feel all that sorry for someone who is that fucked up. My son has actually been more emotionally secure with his relationship with his dad, ever since he died. Now, my kid just says that certain things that he cannot understand or explain, or just wants to be daydreamy about, happened because his dad the ghost did it. haha.. I like it. It is really sad and tragic, but it is truly better than what his emotional state was before dear old dad died.

Thanks for the shoulder. I should have sent this as a PM, but my life is always overall an open book anyways, so I don't mind.

 

[JD_2B]

As long as we live in a society that bases the bulk of their decision making on emotion, rather than logic, then this type of conundrum will never change. People like you who would prefer to do 90% of their thinking through their sensory organs, rather than with the one thing that, underneath all those big feelings, tells them that they are JUST not quite all the way right about something- That would be your brain, by the way- then they will always presume whatever based on whatever happens to cause any soreness of feelings.

On the contrary most people who know me would tell you that I'm probably objective and logical to a fault. You are the one trying convince all of us that a child is imbued with sentience within in mere seconds. Is that really logical or objective thinking?

Either way, as I have said repeatedly on here (in the midst of arguing the whole sentience thing) it does not matter to me if a fetus that is 4 or 5 or 6 months along, or even 9 months along, is sentient. The fetus is still not entitled to remain where it is, based on the fact that it is made from human DNA. Why would I impose such an entitlement, that might limit the rights of the woman carrying it?

The fact remains- there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest that sentience exists in a fetus, any more than there is evidence of a more philosophical nature that suggests that the newly fertilized egg can know it is alive, either.

The definition of sentient that I posted is straight out of the dictionary hon.

sen·tient (snshnt, -sh-nt) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

Having sense perception; conscious:

Experiencing sensation or feeling.

Either disagree with the the accepted dictionary definition or explain how it is you know, despite contrary evidence, that a child in the womb at no point experiences sensation and that it has no conciousness. You CLEARLY have no concept of biological development. You hold that a child in the womb at NO POINT has any of those characteristics. People like you make arguments without really understanding the things that must hold true for their arguments to be valid. To hold that a baby is not sentient until it draws breath REQUIRES that you believe, the biological precursors to the things that make one sentient occur in mere seconds. Tell us oh objective and logical one is that really what you believe?

I know all kinds of stuff about biological development, to which I am objective about, rather than being SUBJECTIVE, which is the action of saying that a fetus that is sucking it's thumb, must then be a sentient individual, because YOU PRESUME that the thumb sucking is something that the fetus is even aware of.
You PROVE it. This is YOUR argument. I could care less one way or another. I am arguing your points just fine- but it does not make a hill of beans difference to the WOMAN if the fetus is sentient and at what time it becomes that way. It is still inside of her uterus, and if she wants that uterus to remain empty, then she has the right to pay someone to empty it. NOTHING trumps that. I could care less if the fetus in question gave an ultrasound image of the Virgin fucking Mary. It is NOT entitled to her uterus for any period of time, beyond the time frame during which she DONATES her body, ALLOWING it.
Forcing a woman through 9 months of pregnancy when she does not want it, is RAPE in and of itself.

You can't have it both ways hon. Now you're back pedaling on the whole sentients things and relegating your excuse to kill on the notion that a baby is not a person. So let's check the dictionary definition of that term according to the American Heritage dictionary. AND SURPRISE SURPRISE. AGAIN they disagree with you that their a difference between being a human (which you did agree a child in the womb could be defined as) and being a person:

I never said it was not human. I said it was not a human being, in my opinion. THAT (and the whole sentience and personhood debate) is not GOING anywhere, because ANYONE with an opinion on the matter is going to use some measure of subjection, rather than having the capacity to be entirely 100% objective about it, and like I said- I do not give a fuck whether someone else thinks of it as a child or a person or whatever it is they want to think of it as. It does not trump the life of the woman, so why the hell would I care what everyone else, besides that woman, thinks of her fetus??? How dictatorial can you possibly be?

< persnickety persona >

per·son audio (pûrsn) KEY

NOUN:

1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.

Fetuses are not chairpeople, cannot become a spokesperson, and will never try to sell anyone anything. They are NOT people. That are not LIVING HUMANS, because they are encased in a shell. They are "pre-living" humans, at best.

I am sorry if you disagree. I know that my stance is extreme.. but in cases of autonomy, you are either for it, or against it. Lets be real, then:

Given that you know your position to be an extreme one and in the minority, even among those who would allow abortions under many circumstances one would think that a logical objective person as you claim to be would be introspective enough to conclude that since their opinion is held in such small minority that perhaps it is worth reexamining whether it is really valid or not.

It is valid, and your opinion does not matter to me, nor does anyone else's. My uterus= My business.

Clearly, this amounts to one of us being pro individual freedom, and another one being pro governmental freedom to dictate. The latter is the most tyrannic ideology known to mankind, and is EXACTLY the thing that I am fighting against.

Big Brother- Go jump off a cliff.

Case closed.

Case closed my ass. You haven't made one single remotely credible argument in this thread. AGAIN you know your position is extreme. Many people including myself, are okay with abortion in many circumstances.

Which is pretty good- not great and needs some work, but whatev.

You are okay with it in any circumstance for the explicit reason that a child still in the womb is not a person or human.

I never ONCE said I was OKAY with those abortions. I said I am "for" the allowance of them to happen by the woman's choice. That does not mean I am okay with them. Stop putting words into my mouth. It is not conducive to a proper debate, for one thing. Also, it really just irritates the shit out of me when you do that. =)

Yes you are right. One of us is pro indivudal freedom. The news to you will be IT ISN'T YOU. Because:

The definition of sentient does not agree with you.

No, it doesn't agree with YOU. The fact that you cannot read for comprehension's sake is not lost on me, either. Sentience is consciousness. Prove the fucking fetus is conscious and aware, and not just having a reflex. Go ahead. You CANT. They DONT. Move the fuck on.

The definition of person does not agree with you.

Sales person (not a fetus!) Chairperson (not a fetus!) But hey, lets get some more definition examples from you, that I can shoot quickly down. This is TOO easy. Thanks.

The vast majority of the human race does not agree with you.

You got me there- And the vast majority of the human race did not agree with Chris Columbus, but look at the name of this very message board in which you DARE to attempt the argument that popular opinion is always right. Dumbfuck.

Most scientists would not agree with you.

Eh most scientists didn't believe Columbus, either. Whats your point again??

ROE v. WADE doesn't even agree with you.

Clearly, they agree more with me than with you.. or else 3rd trimester abortions would not be allowed in ANY case, and the so called "sentient, viable fetus" wold be C-sectioned out, based on some freakish entitlement, which is the way YOU TRULY want it. Too fuckin bad.

G'night.

 

[Bern80]

PROVE that is is CONSCIOUS, and not merely having neurological REFLEXES. Having a REFLEX does not make one conscious. As such, it does not make one sentient.
Having a reflex WILL cause the brain to activate. Of course it will. Our ability to SEE that the brain caused a reflex does not mean that the organism is conscious of that activity.

Show me the evidence that children in the womb lack awareness. Show me the evidence that they have perceptably more self awareness in the span of mere seconds. Since we all know you can't prove a negative the very best you can argue is that you don't know whether it is sentient or not. Meanwhile the scientific evidence is on my side.

One of the potential consequences of driving is having an accident. Should those be left untreated? Risk of result =/= consent to unwanted result.

Walking around in a shower room can cause athlete's foot.. but hey- If the person took that risk, then they should just live with it. Only the people that the fungus catching shower room walker gave that fungus to, unwillingly, should be allowed to get treatment for such a thing. /cough- BULLSHIT!/

Consent to sex does not mean that a person consents to getting HIV, the clap, herpes, crabs, etc, etc, etc.. And it ALSO does not mean that the person consents to becoming pregnant.

Now you're just being intellectually dishonest. No one is saying that you can't remedy the consequences of various behaviors. All anyone is saying is that one of your options is that you can't take another human life to remedy that the consequences of that behavior.

Not even remotely?? Oh I just gotta add a little fuel to your emotive fire here.. Check these pictures of very graphic fetal porn, here- these are aborted fetuses that SURE LOOK HUMAN TO ME. The thing is, I do not LET my EMOTIONS dictate to me what is a PERSON and what is not, based on the appearance of something. Dead people look human, too. After all, they are humans. But they are not alive. Just because they have a face, does not mean that they are alive or sentient or anything else that would trump my rights to dominion over MY uterus, which by the way, is NOT SHARED by you.

Graphic!! Enjoy.. Go ahead.. have a fucking heart attack, now, you emotional trainwreck.

The Case Against Abortion: Abortion Pictures

seen many already. You're presumption on how I emote is quite off.

The point is- in your little hate group against women, you anti abortionists will only "allow" a woman to do certain things under certain circumstances, none of which make a hill of beans difference to your own lives, and all of which can make a HUGE difference in that woman's life. YOU want to determine what is best for that woman, and when, and if she and her boyfriend or husband make an error even one time, and have unprotected sex, then she is automatically considered a whore, etc, etc, and a baby killer, yadda yadda.. and a barrage of other verbally abusive names to call her. If, however, she is VERY close to DEATH, or has had a man rape her (which she could have taken the plan B pill for) then and ONLY then, in those (individually- depending on the anti abortionist, of course) decidedly imminent situations, MAY a woman have an abortion without all the abuse from your team.
YES it is unreasonable. It SETS an expectation FOR abortion to happen in certain cases, and regardless of whether ONE woman felt like she HAD to do it, because her life was at stake, or another woman felt like SHE had to do it because she just was overwhelmed with her own life- you will ALWAYS be calling BOTH of those women baby killers, and causing a lot of pain in them that is undue and unnecessary, and yes- abusive.
It is ABUSE to try to control someone. It is using POWER And CONTROL OVER someone to try to pass laws stating that they can and cannot do X, Y and Z, except in situations as outlined as A, B, and C- as per the request of the majority of the population, the Supremes, WHATEVER.
The majority of the population is NOT experiencing that woman's life. They are NOT property owners of her body, and they do NOT have the right to tell her explicably what she shall have the right to do, or when. YES that is UNREASONABLE.

The we are woman haters argument dioesn't fly either. My position is simple. I believe and the OBJECTIVE (for a word you're so fond of throwing around you really don't exemplify it too well) evidence backs up that a baby is a human, sentient being at some point before being birthed. As I am also oppossed to murder I am thus oppossed to a woman choosing to take that human life. To that end my FEELING about women (love, hate, etc.) is irrelevant.

And being on the brink of death is a pretty inconvenient time to "bother" to go ahead and TRY to birth it, as well.

I scenario in which most of us have agreed would make an abortion permissable. So we can drop that one now right?

PS- Do you realize how many women do not know they are pregnant until they are anywhere between 7 and 9 weeks along in gestation? A woman can ovulate at ANY TIME. ANY TIME includes WHILE she is on her period, even. When I got pregnant, I expected my period the next day, and believe it or not, I GOT it. It took about 11 or 12 years for me to get a logistical answer that even began to make sense to me, that my pregnancy could be 11 weeks along, when THAT period was, as far as I could tell, my LMP, and it didn't seem like I could have been that far along when I had the abortion. I am now certain that I was either 11 weeks along, or 7 weeks along, or possibly 10 or 12 weeks. I thought for a while that I just had a "floating ovulation cycle", a term I heard from a few docs, which meant that I had my ovulation for my NEXT period, the day BEFORE my period started from the last one. That had me thinking my abortion was at about 7 weeks. The clinic did not have high tech ultrasounds, but they could tell me it was my first trimester. I looked, and it was a tiny little blob of nothing as far as I could see.
Well, anyways, I talked to a couple of other docs who said that the bleeding could have NOT been a period, but was something called "breakthrough bleeding", a phenomenon that happens sometimes, early in the pregnancy. They said that this is usually just spotting, though. My period was heavy, and could not have possibly been breakthrough bleeding, because it was a lot more than some light spotting. Well, if it was breakthrough bleeding, then I would have been about 11 weeks along.

All of this is just an excuse. Stop this woe is me bullshit about how you didn't know. YOU KNOW A CONSEQUENCE OF SEX IS PREGNANCY. Therefore you KNOW the possibility existed that after you had sex you could be pregnant. That you didn't even entertain the possibility for 10 weeks or so of one of the two reasons people have sex in the first place is plain and simple irresponsibility on your part.

I am still convinced that it was a full fledged period, and so- I did not know until I was at least two months pregnant, that I was even pregnant. I had an irregular period, and never really kept track of it, because it came when it pleased. I actually found out during an annual well woman checkup, and was very lucky that I didn't NEED a couple of months to save up the money to pay to terminate that pregnancy. I used an entire two week paycheck to do it. Actually, I got a ride from a pro lifer who couldn't have kids of her own, and could not find my debit card, and since my appt was the day after payday, and it was on a Saturday, I could not just swing by the bank. She was so nice- she loaned me the money until Monday, when we went back to work and I would see her.
I was also pro life, before the moment I found out I was pregnant. As soon as I found out, I knew what I had to do, and that was to abort. I don't need to justify that to you or anyone. The reasons I had were justice enough for ME to make MY decision about MY body and MY life, and that is all that you need to know about it.

You're entire position then makes no sense. You have argued this whole time that a woman should be able to choose whenever she wants, right up to moments before birth. Yet in YOUR own case. You had an abortion before the end of your first trimester. As I have stated before I really don't have an issue with that. How one goes from being pro-life to the extreme position of abortion on demand whenever is an illogical response to that event, considering in YOUR case you really didn't kill a human being in the first place.

When you actually have a uterus, you may actually understand this. 50% of all women, worldwide, experience an unexpected pregnancy in their lifetime. If you think that this is just some kind of tough shit situation, then YOU need to adjust your own moral compass, dude. I swear- sometimes I wish it were the men that had to go through with all this. I would rather work my fingers till they bleed every day in the fucking fields for 12 hours a day than to have to deal with an unwanted pregnancy again.

No one here that I have seen has argued this, including myself. I am not taking teh position that must carry every pregnancy to term. You don't want to deal with it again. Then deal with it better than you did the first time. There are a gazillion precautions you could have taken and I find it really ironic that you want to share every detail about what happened after you had sex up to the abortion but don't want to get into any detail at all about how missed the several steps that could have prevented the unwanted pregnancy all together.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

As long as we live in a society that bases the bulk of their decision making on emotion, rather than logic,

?!

The fact remains- there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest that sentience exists in a fetus, any more than there is evidence of a more philosophical nature that suggests that the newly fertilized egg can know it is alive, either.

Fail. Read the entire thread again.

Clearly, this amounts to one of us being pro individual freedom, and another one being pro governmental freedom to dictate. The latter is the most tyrannic ideology known to mankind, and is EXACTLY the thing that I am fighting against.

Big Brother- Go jump off a cliff.

Case closed.

Wow... you'll go through any mental gymnastics you can think of to justify killing your baby, won't you? Do you even care that you've refuted and contradicted yourself more times in this thread than I can count? Then you accuse others of not being logical?

I call Poe's law. Nobody can be that retarded.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

I am a libertarian.

No, you're not. You're a libertine. Libertarian ideology is based on the concept of fundamental human rights for all.

 

[Immanuel]

Yeah!! Thanks- He already gets death benefits- but he has to share with the four other kids that his so called dad "serial fathered" as well. Amazing, his dad- Speaking of whores, Daddy-O had COUNT THEM- Five kids (mine was the first, and the only one within wedlock) with FOUR moms. Un-fucking real.

My son gets less money through death benefits than he would have gotten from the minimal child support order his dad started paying from birth. Considering the 35K in back child support owed, also, I will come out in the negative, anyways.
It's okay though- The death benefit comes every month on the same day, and I know it can be counted on, which is more than I can say for his dad- ever. Good riddance to him. I am only sorry that it was a stroke. He was 30 when he had it- and had JUST turned 30. That creates a serious family history for my son, and a major health risk. Ever since, we have been especially careful about eating habits and exercise. Daddy was a fatty, and I do not want my little pumkin to balloon out into a full fledged pumpkin like his dickweed dad. Obviously that could lead to early death for my son, so I am doing everything possible to steer him clear of that kind of tragedy.

But yea- thanks for the information. How considerate of you, for thinking about that and sharing. =)

I'm not sure, but it sounds to me like Allie's "survivor benefits" and what you call "death benefits" might be one in the same, so your son might already be receiving all he will get.

Now... please don't take this wrong, but from the description of "Daddy-O", I think you picked a real loser. I can only guess at the answer to this, but (if you don't feel this is too personal) was he still married to you when some or all of the others children came along?

Happy New Year Lawyer_to_Be may this year bring tons of joy to you and your son,

Immie

Yup!!! Shore was!!

{snip for brevity}

Sorry- but good riddance is right. I just can't feel all that sorry for someone who is that fucked up. My son has actually been more emotionally secure with his relationship with his dad, ever since he died. Now, my kid just says that certain things that he cannot understand or explain, or just wants to be daydreamy about, happened because his dad the ghost did it. haha.. I like it. It is really sad and tragic, but it is truly better than what his emotional state was before dear old dad died.

Thanks for the shoulder. I should have sent this as a PM, but my life is always overall an open book anyways, so I don't mind.

I hate the word douchebag, but if your ex was half as bad as you made him out to be in that post... douchebag was being nice.

Immie

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

Why Women Have Abortions

Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life 16% Woman can't afford baby now 21% Woman has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12% Woman is unready for responsibility 21% Woman doesn't want others to know she has had sex or is pregnant 1% Woman is not mature enough, or is too young to have a child 11% Woman has all the children she wanted, or has all grown-up children 8% Husband or partner wants woman to have an abortion 1% Fetus has possible health problem 3% Woman has health problem 3% Woman's parents want her to have abortion <1% Woman was victim of rape or incest 1% Other 3% (Totals do not add to 100% because of rounding.)

~6% were medical, 1% were victims

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

WHO HAS ABORTIONS?

• At least 80% of all abortions are performed on unmarried women (CDC).

Yes, JD- most abortions are had by sluts

47% of women who have abortions had at least one previous abortion (AGI).

Yes, JD0- it's abortion for convenience-- and it's multiple times

• On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion: 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about 3/4 say they cannot afford a child; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner (AGI).

No, JD, they're not victims- they just don't want to own up

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

I was 4 and a half months pregnant when we split up. He had gone into his usual rage routine, and decided to hit me a few times.

If you act as stupid IRL as you do here, he was probably trying to smack some sense into you.

I thought you said you were military? Break his arm.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

That are not LIVING HUMANS, because they are encased in a shell. They are "pre-living" humans, at best....

being alive and human makes you a living human being....

Again, I call Poe's law...