What should abortion laws be?

[Cecilie1200]

Just coming in with my

: Albeit I voted for the just during the first trimester or whatever it was, the RvW decision protects one's privacy. This means basically that the decision rests between the woman and her doctor; this is the way it should be. Do I think elective abortion not based on issues surrounding the health of the mother or the unborn child may be an example of just killing one's infant for one's own convenience? Of course. Is it up to me, you or anyone else to judge? Absolutely not. Why? Because it's her body, that's why. Neither you, I, nor anyone else has a right to dictate to another what they are or are not to do with their own body. Period. End of sentence. You get to STFU. This is the ultimate illustration of honoring someone else's property rights. One's body belongs to no one but one's own self.

Well said.

My whole thing on it is that abortion in each and every term, first middle and late, is a private medical procedure, and should not be criminalized, no matter how late term it is done, or for whom or what social reason they might use to rationalize that medical procedure. It does not matter that some people have certain feelings and psychological responses to the decision or basis thereof. Abortion, like any other medical procedure, concerns only her and the medical doctor performing it- nobody else.

I have these guys (Cecile, Bern and Pro) on my ignore list, LMAO- so whatever crazed insults they are hurling my way are no longer a concern to me.

Thank you for chiming in. Your two cents are worth far more than a couple of pennies, to women's rights, at least. =)

Didn't this ignorant trollop storm off with her thong in a twist, vowing never to return? Worse than bad Mexican food for repeating on you, I swear.

 

[Bern80]

Okay, I see that there are some posters in here who believe in taking complete charge of someone else's body, as this is exactly what one is doing when one forces another to give birth.

Then you 'see' incorrectly and it shows in that you won't directly explain the apparent contradictions of that opiinion. Wouldn't you have to admit at the very least that you also want complete control over another's body (the unborn childs) to do with as you will including kill it?

 

[bobbcat]

Your two cents are worth far more than a couple of pennies, to women's rights, at least. =)

Thank you, but I see here (particularly with regard to some of the other responses) that I should elaborate. I don't mince words when I say that whenever abortion takes place, it is an example of taking another's life. IMO, where the battle against elective abortion (where the health of the mother and unborn child are not at stake) should be fought is in the arena of the hearts and minds of the women who face unwanted pregnancy. It is wrong to take an unwanted unborn child's life merely for reasons of convenience ('I cannot afford to have the baby,' 'I am not in love with the baby's father anymore,' etc.). However, it is not up to anyone else to sit in judgement. It is also wrong to overtake other people's bodies in an effort to make them do the right thing. Some things, this issue included, should be judged by a higher power. If there is a price to be paid for killing one's own unborn child when life and health are not at stake for either, it will be ultimately paid. JMO. There are ways to cope with the unwanted pregnancy (free prenatal, delivery, postnatal care in exchange for putting the child up for adoption-this arrangement is available everywhere in the US), and women should be made aware of options other than having the elective abortion procedure.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

You say it's not for anyone to judge, yet you judge it as wrong in the very same post.


Of course, using your argument that it's 'not up to anyone else to sit in judgement' of a matter that's 'an example of taking another's life, it follows that it's for noone to judge or intervene when I break into your house, rape you for seven hours, cut open your belly, strew your intestines around the room while you're still alive, and finally cut your throat and watch you die.

You keep telling yourself that that.

Sane people support intervening in homicide and stopping it.

 

[bobbcat]

Of course, using your argument that it's 'not up to anyone else to sit in judgement' of a matter that's 'an example of taking another's life, it follows that it's for noone to judge or intervene when I break into your house, rape you for seven hours, cut open your belly, strew your intestines around the room while you're still alive, and finally cut your throat and watch you die.

Bad analogy if I ever saw one. You are right though about the use of 'judge' in this context. I should have used instead the term 'intervene.'

Interesting that you overlook how the rates of elective abortion could be reduced other than outlawing the procedure (education, pregnancy counseling, etc.). I wonder too if you overlook the notion that outlawing elective abortion will do nothing at all to stop women who are determined to terminate their unwanted pregnancies from doing so.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

I wonder too if you overlook the notion that outlawing elective abortion will do nothing at all to stop women who are determined to terminate their unwanted pregnancies from doing so.

Go read the thread.

Outlawing rape didn't stop all rapes.

You have argued for legalize rape on the same grounds, using the exact same argument you use for abortion.

How can you people be so stupid?

 

[JakeStarkey]

You say it's not for anyone to judge, yet you judge it as wrong in the very same post.


Of course, using your argument that it's 'not up to anyone else to sit in judgement' of a matter that's 'an example of taking another's life, it follows that it's for noone to judge or intervene when I break into your house, rape you for seven hours, cut open your belly, strew your intestines around the room while you're still alive, and finally cut your throat and watch you die.

You keep telling yourself that that.

Sane people support intervening in homicide and stopping it.

Proletarian, the contradiction is in your analysis of bobbcat's statement. She was consistent and inherently logical in her statement. You, on the other hand, create an apples and oranges contradiction by extending the situation to rape, torture, and murder. I though you demonstrated a sense of emotional unbalance in another thread. I know now, based on your post above, you are not a stable personality.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Her argument:

Making x illegal did not stop all instances of x

outlawing elective abortion will do nothing at all to stop women who are determined to terminate their unwanted pregnancies from doing so.

She forwarded this as an argument against making abortion illegal.

The exact same argument applies equally to all crimes.

That is logic.

She supports legalizing rape because outlawing rape will do nothing at all to stop who are determined to rape from doing so.

 

[bobbcat]

How can you people be so stupid?

Why can't you just agree to disagree? Instead of resorting to an ad hominem attack, why not explain to me just what is wrong with the approach I have pointed to above? You really think that outlawing the elective abortion procedure is going to do any good? Again, this is an issue that concerns one's own body. Homicide and rape do not figure into this in any way, shape, matter or form. Oh, and I said nothing at all about rape; don't put words in my mouth.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Try cracking open a dictionary sometime.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Proletarian proves bobbcat's thesis and demonstrates my observation: cracked.

 

[bobbcat]

Nothing like spewing potty-mouthed drivel in lieu of a 'debate' to illustrate an utter failure to forge a reasonable argument.

You need to grow up, prole.

Edited to say thanks to mod for removing prole's unnecessary, profanity-laced flame from above.

 

[JenT]

Just coming in with my

: Albeit I voted for the just during the first trimester or whatever it was, the RvW decision protects one's privacy. This means basically that the decision rests between the woman and her doctor; this is the way it should be. Do I think elective abortion not based on issues surrounding the health of the mother or the unborn child may be an example of just killing one's infant for one's own convenience? Of course. Is it up to me, you or anyone else to judge? Absolutely not. Why? Because it's her body, that's why. Neither you, I, nor anyone else has a right to dictate to another what they are or are not to do with their own body. Period. End of sentence. You get to STFU. This is the ultimate illustration of honoring someone else's property rights. One's body belongs to no one but one's own self.

Well said.

My whole thing on it is that abortion in each and every term, first middle and late, is a private medical procedure, and should not be criminalized, no matter how late term it is done, or for whom or what social reason they might use to rationalize that medical procedure. It does not matter that some people have certain feelings and psychological responses to the decision or basis thereof. Abortion, like any other medical procedure, concerns only her and the medical doctor performing it- nobody else.

I have these guys (Cecile, Bern and Pro) on my ignore list, LMAO- so whatever crazed insults they are hurling my way are no longer a concern to me.

Thank you for chiming in. Your two cents are worth far more than a couple of pennies, to women's rights, at least. =)

Didn't this ignorant trollop storm off with her thong in a twist, vowing never to return? Worse than bad Mexican food for repeating on you, I swear.

okay but if we haven't all done that, we've felt like it before...

 

[ItHappens]

Personally I think abortion is repulsive.
However it's been legal for 30 years. Preverbial cat out of the bag so to speak. I don't think illegal abortion would stop abortion. That's really pro-life people should be focused on - stopping abortion, legal or otherwise. A change of heart is needed for that.
In the case of later term, where a child is proven viable (24 weeks stage give or take a week or two) abortion should be illegal.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Of course, using your argument that it's 'not up to anyone else to sit in judgement' of a matter that's 'an example of taking another's life, it follows that it's for noone to judge or intervene when I break into your house, rape you for seven hours, cut open your belly, strew your intestines around the room while you're still alive, and finally cut your throat and watch you die.

Bad analogy if I ever saw one. You are right though about the use of 'judge' in this context. I should have used instead the term 'intervene.'

Interesting that you overlook how the rates of elective abortion could be reduced other than outlawing the procedure (education, pregnancy counseling, etc.). I wonder too if you overlook the notion that outlawing elective abortion will do nothing at all to stop women who are determined to terminate their unwanted pregnancies from doing so.

If outlawing unacceptable behaviors does nothing to deter people from doing them, why do we bother to outlaw anything?

 

[Cecilie1200]

How can you people be so stupid?

Why can't you just agree to disagree? Instead of resorting to an ad hominem attack, why not explain to me just what is wrong with the approach I have pointed to above? You really think that outlawing the elective abortion procedure is going to do any good? Again, this is an issue that concerns one's own body. Homicide and rape do not figure into this in any way, shape, matter or form. Oh, and I said nothing at all about rape; don't put words in my mouth.

Prole is actually okay on agreeing to disagree, so long as your disagreement isn't predicated on ridiculous notions. And I'm sorry, but "Outlawing things does nothing to stop them" is ridiculous. So is "abortion is just about the woman's body", or "abortion is different from other behaviors", as though pregnant women aren't susceptible to the same cause-and-effect that every other human is.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Well said.

My whole thing on it is that abortion in each and every term, first middle and late, is a private medical procedure, and should not be criminalized, no matter how late term it is done, or for whom or what social reason they might use to rationalize that medical procedure. It does not matter that some people have certain feelings and psychological responses to the decision or basis thereof. Abortion, like any other medical procedure, concerns only her and the medical doctor performing it- nobody else.

I have these guys (Cecile, Bern and Pro) on my ignore list, LMAO- so whatever crazed insults they are hurling my way are no longer a concern to me.

Thank you for chiming in. Your two cents are worth far more than a couple of pennies, to women's rights, at least. =)

Didn't this ignorant trollop storm off with her thong in a twist, vowing never to return? Worse than bad Mexican food for repeating on you, I swear.

okay but if we haven't all done that, we've felt like it before...

No, I can't say that I've ever felt like having a melodramatic, adolescent flounce out of a thread, vowing never to return.

 

[JD_2B]

How can you people be so stupid?

Why can't you just agree to disagree? Instead of resorting to an ad hominem attack, why not explain to me just what is wrong with the approach I have pointed to above? You really think that outlawing the elective abortion procedure is going to do any good? Again, this is an issue that concerns one's own body. Homicide and rape do not figure into this in any way, shape, matter or form. Oh, and I said nothing at all about rape; don't put words in my mouth.

Exactly what I spent 60+ pages dealing with on this thread alone, before finally putting him on ignore, lol..

The extremists on this thread will of course threaten your life just the way proletarian did to you- as a means of comparing a born person being tortured, raped and killed to a born person ending a pregnancy by choice.

This is just one in a zillion examples of the illogical, meaningless emotional hyperbole used by the psychotic antis in this thread.

Oh and just you wait- they will start calling you non sentient and a bad parent with neglected or abused kids, just because you advocate for decriminalizing late term abortions too. And this will be from the very person who claims she would hurt her own children and their girlfriends, should any of her son's girlfriends attempt to abort.

They won't say these things to a man, of course. Only to a woman.. And they claim to not be misogynists. HA! Yeah.. that's a laugh!!!

 

[Bern80]

Your two cents are worth far more than a couple of pennies, to women's rights, at least. =)

Thank you, but I see here (particularly with regard to some of the other responses) that I should elaborate. I don't mince words when I say that whenever abortion takes place, it is an example of taking another's life. IMO, where the battle against elective abortion (where the health of the mother and unborn child are not at stake) should be fought is in the arena of the hearts and minds of the women who face unwanted pregnancy. It is wrong to take an unwanted unborn child's life merely for reasons of convenience ('I cannot afford to have the baby,' 'I am not in love with the baby's father anymore,' etc.). However, it is not up to anyone else to sit in judgement. It is also wrong to overtake other people's bodies in an effort to make them do the right thing. Some things, this issue included, should be judged by a higher power. If there is a price to be paid for killing one's own unborn child when life and health are not at stake for either, it will be ultimately paid. JMO. There are ways to cope with the unwanted pregnancy (free prenatal, delivery, postnatal care in exchange for putting the child up for adoption-this arrangement is available everywhere in the US), and women should be made aware of options other than having the elective abortion procedure.

See this is why this issue isn't something where people agree to disagree. I can see that in discussions where people have opposing opinions and neither one of them can be defined as right or wrong. That isn't the case here. JD's arguments and yours have holes and contradictions in them and I can't see the above position than anything other than a contradiction. Let's see if you're a bit more open minded than JD:

You acknowledge that abortion is taking another's life.

You argue that no one else should have control over the choices an individual makes with regard to their own bodies.

So if you acknowledge that abortion is taking ANOTHER'S life, how is this about what pregnant women do to themselves?

if you are for the personal freedom to make your own choices about your body, how do you reconcile that with not giving ANOTHER life the choice to live?

 

[JenT]

Didn't this ignorant trollop storm off with her thong in a twist, vowing never to return? Worse than bad Mexican food for repeating on you, I swear.

okay but if we haven't all done that, we've felt like it before...

No, I can't say that I've ever felt like having a melodramatic, adolescent flounce out of a thread, vowing never to return.

Really? Melodrama rocks, so does flouncing, adolescent or otherwise