What was a reason for God to sacrifice His Son?

[Mindful]

I know which path I want.

I got sort of side tracked.

What path do you want?

Not this one.

Which one is that?

The one I wasn't on before.

Ok, I think that about does it. Talk to you later...












...when you can tell me about this path you are on that sin takes you off of.

It's a necessary road of redemption I have to take. Who knows the outcome.

At least I'm not doing self flagellation.

 

[ding]

I can live with you believing that, rosie. It's not so bad.

 

[ding]

ah-so... the gloves come off and the point emerges.

 

[Mindful]

The Yellow Brick Road leads you back to where you started.

 

[ding]

The view of the afterlife held by ancient Jews, which can be surmised from passing references throughout the Bible, is that all people, Jews and gentiles, go to a netherworld called Sheol, a deep and dark place in which shadowy spirits called refaim dwell. These could be summoned by the living to answer questions (1 Samuel 28:3–25), though this practice is forbidden (Leviticus 20:27). The ancients seemed to have viewed this fate as final: Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die (2 Samuel 14:14).

This theory of the afterlife was consistent with that held by the ancient Jews' neighbors, including the Greeks and the Babylonians. But that would change during the vicissitudes of Second Temple Judaism. A new apocalyptic eschatology took form during the epic struggle between Jews and the Hellenic world in the 2nd century BCE: that the dead would rise at the End of Days.

What is the Jewish afterlife like?

 

[ding]

There were two major reasons this theory developed at that time. One is that after the Babylonian Exile (586-638 BCE), Judaism became deeply concerned with interpreting sacred texts and deciphering their secrets. Thus passages such as The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up(1 Samuel 2:6) and Ezekiel's vision of the dry bones (Ezekiel 37:1-14) came to be taken as attestation that the dead would rise at the End of Days.

The second reason was the rise of a new kind of Jewish hero during the Maccabean Revolt (167-160 BCE) - the martyr.

A benevolent God must repay the sacrifice of a person who died for the sanctity of his name. Thus Jewish writings of the period hold that while we all die, death is only temporary, and in the future all will receive their just rewards.

As much is clearly stated in the Book of Daniel, which purports to be written during the Babylonian Exile, but was really written during the Maccabean Revolt: "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (12:2).

What is the Jewish afterlife like?

 

[ding]

While the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead pervaded Jewish writing during the Second Temple period, it was apparently not universally accepted. According to Josephus, a Jewish historian writing at the end of the first century CE, the question of afterlife was a major point of contention for Jewish theologians of the period.

The Sadducees, the prominent priestly class who ran the Temple, did not believe in an afterlife, nor in the resurrection of the dead, Josephus writes. Meanwhile, their counterparts and adversaries, the Pharisees, an elite of experts in Jewish law, believed in both.

Once the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE, the Sadducees and their theology were lost, and the Pharisees and their conception of the afterlife became mainstream rabbinical Judaism.

Thus from the time of early rabbinic Judaism, belief in the afterlife and the resurrection of the dead became core to the faith. All Israel have a portion in the world to come, the Mishnah (200 CE) states, only to qualify this statement with a list of Jews who are excluded: One who maintains that resurrection is not a biblical doctrine, the Torah was not divinely revealed, and a heretic. (Sanhedrin 10:1).

What is the Jewish afterlife like?

 

[ding]

It was during this period that early concepts of heaven, called the Garden of Eden, and Hell, called Gehenom, start to appear in Judaism.

This was also the time early Christianity started to splinter from rabbinic Judaism, and thus these Jewish concepts of the afterlife found their way into Christianity.

While the Mishnah doesnt elaborate on the afterlife, the Talmud (redacted in 500 CE) gives us a glimpse into the rabbis view of life after death.

In Eruvin 19b, we are told that all but the most wicked are sent to Gehenom (a fiery place, according to Berakhot 57b), but their stay in the flames is temporary. After being purged of their sins, they are ushered to Heaven by Abraham.

Elsewhere (Rosh Hashanah 17a), the torments of Hell are said to be temporary for most sinners - but instead of ending in Heaven, they end in nonexistence.

Some references to the World to Come in the Talmud seem to refer to Gan Eden; others clearly refer to a time after the dead come back to life, such as this section in Berakhot 17a: "In the World to Come there is no eating, or drinking nor procreation or commerce, nor jealousy, or enmity, or rivalry – but the righteous sit with crowns on their head and enjoy the radiance of the Divine Presence."

What is the Jewish afterlife like?

 

[ding]

Now I think I understand her confusion.

 

[yiostheoy]

As far as I am aware, according to Christian beliefs after Adam's fall all humanity became sinful and doomed to perdition. Then Son of God was sent by Father to save mankind and give eternal live for those believing in Him.

‌Why was all this needed? Why didnt God simply send a prophet with instructions how people can save themselves? Why did God have a need to make sacrifice for himself?

I guess you did not pay attention at all in Catechism or Sunday School Bible Study.

 

[BS Filter]

Anyway Ding.

Before we get into it; I have to ask you this:

Do you believe you were born into original sin? Before you even had a chance to transgress?

Not in the sense that others do per se. Genesis is allegorical. It starts with the allegorical account of Creation. After every step God would say "and it was good." So basically everything God created was good. Which makes sense because things like evil, darkness and cold or not extant. They don't exist on their own. They exist as the absence of something else. Cold is the absence of heat. Darkness is the absence of light. And evil is the absence of good.

Man knows right from wrong, but when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong, he rationalizes that he didn't violate it. After Adam and Eve had sinned and realized they were naked, they hid when they heard God coming. They hid because they knew that they had done wrong. Then when God asked point blank if they had done it, they rationalized that it wasn't their fault. Adam, did you eat the apple? The woman you made gave it to me. Eve did you eat the apple? The serpent deceived me.

Man is the only animal capable of knowledge of good and evil. No other creature has this concept. Sure animals can have empathy, but not like man. Animals function on impulse and instinct. Man functions on these too, but in man's case he has the unique ability to override his impulses and instinct for the sake of good. That is free will. It's a choice. Everything is choice.

I don't believe that Genesis is implying that had Adam and Eve never committed the original sin, we would live in paradise forever. I believe Genesis is saying that man has the capacity to do good and evil. So then the question begs why did God create such a world. I believe that that is an artifact of life. In other words, I don't believe God had a choice. It is part and parcel of the extant nature of good. I know people will howl that I said God had no choice but the reality is there are things God can't do. For instance, God can't oppose Himself; He can't go against His own nature.

So there are two very interesting things which come out of free will. One is that evil has the effect of making good better. It's like salt and sugar. Salt makes sugar taste sweeter. We are told elsewhere that He uses all things for the good of those who love Him. Among other things the Jews discovered is that there is meaning in suffering. 07 Judaism

The other interesting thing is that good has no meaning unless there is evil. In other words, it is not virtuous if you are forced to be virtuous.

In closing, man prefers good over evil. We don't do evil for evil's sake. We do evil for the sake of our own good and when we do, we rationalize that we didn't do evil. But from these acts, goodness will arise and we will be stronger for it. It is a self compensating feature whose sole purpose is to propel consciousness to the next rung in the anthropological ladder.

You see, from my position, sin involves straying from the path.

I wasn't born that way, carrying the inherent burden of my forefathers. Having to be baptised to clear that debt.

It's a good thing to be baptized, but it doesn't take sin away. Only the blood of Jesus. Baptism is symbolic of that.

 

[Meriweather]

t would be okay to me if mainstream Christian tradition put it this way. But according to this tradition Jesus' sufferings and death are a sacrifice of God to himself. It doesnt make sense to me.

No, Jesus' sufferings and death are not a sacrifice of God to Himself. First of all, a blood sacrifice hasn't ever been a requirement for the forgiveness of sins. In fact, Isaiah tells us God doesn't want them. Blood is a sign of a New Covenant (Testament).

Second, Adam, with his sin, brought death to the world. Christ, with his obedience, conquered death. Whose way/example do we want to follow: Adam and sin. Or, obedience and Christ?

 

[Meriweather]

Man sinned against God, and there must be a penalty for sin. God requires shedding of innocent blood. Since there is none on earth because everyone is a sinner, the only perfect sacrifice was Jesus.

Where do you see God requiring innocent blood? Hosea, Isaiah, and Jeremiah all record that God wants none of this.

 

[BS Filter]

Man sinned against God, and there must be a penalty for sin. God requires shedding of innocent blood. Since there is none on earth because everyone is a sinner, the only perfect sacrifice was Jesus.

Where do you see God requiring innocent blood? Hosea, Isaiah, and Jeremiah all record that God wants none of this.

Exodus, the passover lamb. John the Baptist said "Jesus, the Lamb of God". Also, read Leviticus.

 

[Meriweather]

Exodus, the passover lamb. John the Baptist said "Jesus, the Lamb of God". Also, read Leviticus.

The Passover Lamb was not a sin sacrifice. I have no quarrel with Jesus being the Lamb of God. The blood of Passover Lamb did save the Jews from death and escape from bondage, but it wasn't a sacrifice for their sins.

Jesus sacrificed his life to bring about a New Covenant (Testament) between mankind and God: Repentance for the forgiveness of sins, which also frees us from the bondage of sin which saves us from death. Our repentance absolutely includes our acknowledgement that we must rely solely on God to help with the damage our sins cause that we cannot repair ourselves.

The perfect sacrifice was Christ who gave up his life for this issue of forgiveness of sins. We, his disciples, point to this and make our sacrifice not only belief in Christ, but such strong belief that we sacrifice our own lives to follow his Way as closely as possible. He helps us with our failures and we can make no better sacrifice.

 

[BS Filter]

Exodus, the passover lamb. John the Baptist said "Jesus, the Lamb of God". Also, read Leviticus.

The Passover Lamb was not a sin sacrifice. I have no quarrel with Jesus being the Lamb of God. The blood of Passover Lamb did save the Jews from death and escape from bondage, but it wasn't a sacrifice for their sins.

Jesus sacrificed his life to bring about a New Covenant (Testament) between mankind and God: Repentance for the forgiveness of sins, which also frees us from the bondage of sin which saves us from death. Our repentance absolutely includes our acknowledgement that we must rely solely on God to help with the damage our sins cause that we cannot repair ourselves.

The perfect sacrifice was Christ who gave up his life for this issue of forgiveness of sins. We, his disciples, point to this and make our sacrifice not only belief in Christ, but such strong belief that we sacrifice our own lives to follow his Way as closely as possible. He helps us with our failures and we can make no better sacrifice.

Okay, then tell me what washes my sins away. Water or the blood of Jesus?

 

[RWNJ]

Exodus, the passover lamb. John the Baptist said "Jesus, the Lamb of God". Also, read Leviticus.

The Passover Lamb was not a sin sacrifice. I have no quarrel with Jesus being the Lamb of God. The blood of Passover Lamb did save the Jews from death and escape from bondage, but it wasn't a sacrifice for their sins.

Jesus sacrificed his life to bring about a New Covenant (Testament) between mankind and God: Repentance for the forgiveness of sins, which also frees us from the bondage of sin which saves us from death. Our repentance absolutely includes our acknowledgement that we must rely solely on God to help with the damage our sins cause that we cannot repair ourselves.

The perfect sacrifice was Christ who gave up his life for this issue of forgiveness of sins. We, his disciples, point to this and make our sacrifice not only belief in Christ, but such strong belief that we sacrifice our own lives to follow his Way as closely as possible. He helps us with our failures and we can make no better sacrifice.

Okay, then tell me what washes my sins away. Water or the blood of Jesus?

Silly Catholics. "Of course I'm a Christian. They sprinkled water on me when I was a baby"

 

[Meriweather]

Okay, then tell me what washes my sins away. Water or the blood of Jesus?

In Acts, Peter speaks of Baptism for the remission of sins; 1 Peter 3:21 tells us Baptism is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 7:14 - These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In Jewish culture of the time, blood was used as a symbol of life, not death. Further, no one would approach God in anything less than a clean, white robe--a custom that carried over into early Christian baptisms and continues to this day.

The blood of Christ is the power of the blood (life) of Christ to cleanse those who live in the blood (life) of Christ and obey God. Also keep in mind in the Jewish culture, all blood (since it is associated with life) belongs to God.

Our baptism is the first step we take into living in the Way of Christ. Living in the Way of Christ is what washes us in the blood of Lamb. Remember, all blood belongs to God, and therefore when we speak of being cleansed by the blood of Christ, this equates to being cleansed and forgiven by the grace of God. Make sense?

 

[Meriweather]

Silly Catholics. "Of course I'm a Christian. They sprinkled water on me when I was a baby"

Baptism is a Sacrament of Initiation, one whereby we enter the Way of Christ and are fully a member of the Catholic community, and now a disciple/follower of Christ. By the way, Catholics don't sprinkle during Baptism, although we do sprinkle during Easter renewals of our baptismal vows and promises.

 

[BS Filter]

Okay, then tell me what washes my sins away. Water or the blood of Jesus?

In Acts, Peter speaks of Baptism for the remission of sins; 1 Peter 3:21 tells us Baptism is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 7:14 - These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In Jewish culture of the time, blood was used as a symbol of life, not death. Further, no one would approach God in anything less than a clean, white robe--a custom that carried over into early Christian baptisms and continues to this day.

The blood of Christ is the power of the blood (life) of Christ to cleanse those who live in the blood (life) of Christ and obey God. Also keep in mind in the Jewish culture, all blood (since it is associated with life) belongs to God.

Our baptism is the first step we take into living in the Way of Christ. Living in the Way of Christ is what washes us in the blood of Lamb. Remember, all blood belongs to God, and therefore when we speak of being cleansed by the blood of Christ, this equates to being cleansed and forgiven by the grace of God. Make sense?[/QUOT

Okay, then tell me what washes my sins away. Water or the blood of Jesus?

In Acts, Peter speaks of Baptism for the remission of sins; 1 Peter 3:21 tells us Baptism is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 7:14 - These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In Jewish culture of the time, blood was used as a symbol of life, not death. Further, no one would approach God in anything less than a clean, white robe--a custom that carried over into early Christian baptisms and continues to this day.

The blood of Christ is the power of the blood (life) of Christ to cleanse those who live in the blood (life) of Christ and obey God. Also keep in mind in the Jewish culture, all blood (since it is associated with life) belongs to God.

Our baptism is the first step we take into living in the Way of Christ. Living in the Way of Christ is what washes us in the blood of Lamb. Remember, all blood belongs to God, and therefore when we speak of being cleansed by the blood of Christ, this equates to being cleansed and forgiven by the grace of God. Make sense?

Baptism is the symbol. The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. Only the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. Study the book of Hebrews.
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9:14-16 - Easy-to-Read Version