What was a reason for God to sacrifice His Son?

[emilynghiem]

I think Saint Augustine (354-430) was the first theologian to teach that man is born into this world in a state of sin.

The question, Ding, is: do you think we are?

Dear Mindful and ding
What about the path to perfect harmony with universal truth.
Can we be that perfect as people? Only when taking us together.
As individuals we each have imperfect biases and limitations
and cannot contain the entire truth of God. But together we can Correct each
other's faults as neighbors, removing beams from our own eyes in order to
help others to remove splinters, so through mutual correction in Christ we
reach agreement and can reflect God's perfect truth and be made whole in Christ.
Be ye perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect.

As for being born into sin, yes and no.
We are made in the image of God so our real default nature is perfect.
The sin came later when we developed minds, ego and consciousness
and thus selfish biases. When we compete for greed and covet what
is our neighbors, out of fear God doesn't provide for us all equally which takes more mature faith that came later.

So while we are under this stage, yes, we are born with biases
and sin that separate us from perfection and wholeness unified with God.

But no, our natural state in the beginning was perfection.
And the point of Jesus is to reconcile BACK with God
through Christ who was always with God from the beginning.

We just have to go through a linear process of learning
from experience and example how to become like little children
again who naturally know God's love without fear and bias getting in the way.

Unconsciously we carry this conditioning from the past.
So these generational sins are born into future generations.
but the point of Christ is to BREAK this cycle and restore
the original state which is perfection reunited with our Father in Heaven.

 

[Meriweather]

Baptism is the symbol. The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. Only the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. Study the book of Hebrews.

Yes, I've studied the Book of Hebrews...but I didn't stop there.

 

[BS Filter]

Baptism is the symbol. The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. Only the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. Study the book of Hebrews.

Yes, I've studied the Book of Hebrews...but I didn't stop there.

Good. Water can't wash away sin, only the blood of Jesus.

 

[Meriweather]

Good. Water can't wash away sin, only the blood of Jesus.

Then you hold no belief in Acts 2:38 -

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;

Catholics believe the Sacraments, the first which is Baptism, is the visible sign of the invisible reality. Is it the symbol you refute, the invisible reality, or both? Keep in mind blood is symbolic as well. Do you believe you will literally wash a robe in Christ's blood, or do you believe it is a sign of the invisible reality? Do you refute one of these, but not the other?

 

[Taz]

Good. Water can't wash away sin, only the blood of Jesus.

Then you hold no belief in Acts 2:38 -

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;

Catholics believe the Sacraments, the first which is Baptism, is the visible sign of the invisible reality. Is it the symbol you refute, the invisible reality, or both? Keep in mind blood is symbolic as well. Do you believe you will literally wash a robe in Christ's blood, or do you believe it is a sign of the invisible reality? Do you refute one of these, but not the other?

Jesus was already nailed to wood in a diaper to pay for our sins. His dripping blood washed them all away.

 

[BS Filter]

Good. Water can't wash away sin, only the blood of Jesus.

Then you hold no belief in Acts 2:38 -

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;

Catholics believe the Sacraments, the first which is Baptism, is the visible sign of the invisible reality. Is it the symbol you refute, the invisible reality, or both? Keep in mind blood is symbolic as well. Do you believe you will literally wash a robe in Christ's blood, or do you believe it is a sign of the invisible reality? Do you refute one of these, but not the other?

I don't refute the symbol of baptism. I agree with you that baptism is a symbol. I'm just stating that it isn't the baptism that cleansed me from sin. Jesus shed his blood and by faith in his blood, I am cleansed from sin. When I was baptized, that was a symbol of death and resurrection into Life.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't refute the symbol of baptism. I agree with you that baptism is a symbol. I'm just stating that it isn't the baptism that cleansed me from sin. Jesus shed his blood and by faith in his blood, I am cleansed from sin. When I was baptized, that was a symbol of death and resurrection into Life.

Do we agree? Baptism is a visible sign of the invisible reality. People were being cleansed from sin through baptism before Christ's death. Christ himself was our example of the necessity of baptism. Faith in blood does not cleanse one from sin. Faith in Christ's life/teachings of repentance and obedience--in addition to the grace of God--cleanse us of our sins.

I do not see Christ's death as a punishment undertaken for the sins of mankind, and that those who believe this are rewarded. I believe in discipleship and living the Way Christ taught and led through example.

 

[BS Filter]

I don't refute the symbol of baptism. I agree with you that baptism is a symbol. I'm just stating that it isn't the baptism that cleansed me from sin. Jesus shed his blood and by faith in his blood, I am cleansed from sin. When I was baptized, that was a symbol of death and resurrection into Life.

Do we agree? Baptism is a visible sign of the invisible reality. People were being cleansed from sin through baptism before Christ's death. Christ himself was our example of the necessity of baptism. Faith in blood does not cleanse one from sin. Faith in Christ's life/teachings of repentance and obedience--in addition to the grace of God--cleanse us of our sins.

I do not see Christ's death as a punishment undertaken for the sins of mankind, and that those who believe this are rewarded. I believe in discipleship and living the Way Christ taught and led through example.

Disagree. Hebrews teaches that faith in what Jesus did on the cross is what cleanses me from sin. You can't earn your salvation. Again, Hebrews and Romans teaches we are saved by Faith in Jesus, not anything we do. Your words contradict the Scriptures. I also believe in living holy and in discipleship, but I am saved by faith. That is scripture.

 

[ding]

I think Saint Augustine (354-430) was the first theologian to teach that man is born into this world in a state of sin.

The question, Ding, is: do you think we are?

Dear Mindful and ding
What about the path to perfect harmony with universal truth.
Can we be that perfect as people? Only when taking us together.
As individuals we each have imperfect biases and limitations
and cannot contain the entire truth of God. But together we can Correct each
other's faults as neighbors, removing beams from our own eyes in order to
help others to remove splinters, so through mutual correction in Christ we
reach agreement and can reflect God's perfect truth and be made whole in Christ.
Be ye perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect.

As for being born into sin, yes and no.
We are made in the image of God so our real default nature is perfect.
The sin came later when we developed minds, ego and consciousness
and thus selfish biases. When we compete for greed and covet what
is our neighbors, out of fear God doesn't provide for us all equally which takes more mature faith that came later.

So while we are under this stage, yes, we are born with biases
and sin that separate us from perfection and wholeness unified with God.

But no, our natural state in the beginning was perfection.
And the point of Jesus is to reconcile BACK with God
through Christ who was always with God from the beginning.

We just have to go through a linear process of learning
from experience and example how to become like little children
again who naturally know God's love without fear and bias getting in the way.

Unconsciously we carry this conditioning from the past.
So these generational sins are born into future generations.
but the point of Christ is to BREAK this cycle and restore
the original state which is perfection reunited with our Father in Heaven.

God does not expect us to do perfect things, he expects us to be perfect. Many a saint has pondered what this means.

Emily, I agree with much of this but one of our problems is that we are linear thinkers in a cyclical world. If we better understood this concept we might be able to break the cycle, but at a minimum we would all better understand how the pruning process works and be better equipped to weather the storms. I dare say maybe even embrace the storms.

 

[Meriweather]

Disagree. Hebrews teaches that faith in what Jesus did on the cross is what cleanses me from sin. You can't earn your salvation. Again, Hebrews and Romans teaches we are saved by Faith in Jesus, not anything we do. Your words contradict the Scriptures. I also believe in living holy and in discipleship, but I am saved by faith. That is scripture.

I thought we disagreed.

Actually, as I mentioned before, Acts, 1 Peter, and even Mark support the position of Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. In the Gospels Jesus taught Repentance for the forgiveness of sins. At the time it was written, the Hebrews saw blood as life, not death. Thinking oneself saved by faith is a nil if one does not recall scripture warning, "Faith without works is dead." This goes back to blood meaning "Life of Christ" where we follow closely the life, the Way, he taught us to live.

It seems to me that some decide what they want to believe and then find a couple of scriptures to back that belief. Isn't it better to study all scripture, along with the culture of the time, so that we have a clear view of the totality?

The reason I am making an issue of this is because when a fragment of Christianity is over emphasized, non-Christians quickly see the holes in logic, and like the Rorschach Test they fill in as suits their purposes.

 

[Taz]

Disagree. Hebrews teaches that faith in what Jesus did on the cross is what cleanses me from sin. You can't earn your salvation. Again, Hebrews and Romans teaches we are saved by Faith in Jesus, not anything we do. Your words contradict the Scriptures. I also believe in living holy and in discipleship, but I am saved by faith. That is scripture.

I thought we disagreed.

Actually, as I mentioned before, Acts, 1 Peter, and even Mark support the position of Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. In the Gospels Jesus taught Repentance for the forgiveness of sins. At the time it was written, the Hebrews saw blood as life, not death. Thinking oneself saved by faith is a nil if one does not recall scripture warning, "Faith without works is dead." This goes back to blood meaning "Life of Christ" where we follow closely the life, the Way, he taught us to live.

It seems to me that some decide what they want to believe and then find a couple of scriptures to back that belief. Isn't it better to study all scripture, along with the culture of the time, so that we have a clear view of the totality?

The reason I am making an issue of this is because when a fragment of Christianity is over emphasized, non-Christians quickly see the holes in logic, and like the Rorschach Test they fill in as suits their purposes.

"In the Gospels Jesus taught Repentance for the forgiveness of sins", but at the end of the fairy tale, Jesus dies nailed to wood in a diaper to erase all our sins, presumably because repentance wasn't cutting it.

 

[BS Filter]

Disagree. Hebrews teaches that faith in what Jesus did on the cross is what cleanses me from sin. You can't earn your salvation. Again, Hebrews and Romans teaches we are saved by Faith in Jesus, not anything we do. Your words contradict the Scriptures. I also believe in living holy and in discipleship, but I am saved by faith. That is scripture.

I thought we disagreed.

Actually, as I mentioned before, Acts, 1 Peter, and even Mark support the position of Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. In the Gospels Jesus taught Repentance for the forgiveness of sins. At the time it was written, the Hebrews saw blood as life, not death. Thinking oneself saved by faith is a nil if one does not recall scripture warning, "Faith without works is dead." This goes back to blood meaning "Life of Christ" where we follow closely the life, the Way, he taught us to live.

It seems to me that some decide what they want to believe and then find a couple of scriptures to back that belief. Isn't it better to study all scripture, along with the culture of the time, so that we have a clear view of the totality?

The reason I am making an issue of this is because when a fragment of Christianity is over emphasized, non-Christians quickly see the holes in logic, and like the Rorschach Test they fill in as suits their purposes.

Yet, you appear to be doing the very thing you warn against, taking a few scriptures and building a doctrine of salvation by baptism. Good works follow saving faith. You are falling into a common error that many people fall into, the "faith without works is dead" misconception that James is speaking about salvation. He isn't. Tell me, If I am dying without knowing about Jesus and someone shares with me the gospel and I believe on the Lord and ask his forgiveness of sin, then I die a few seconds later. Am I saved?

 

[Taz]

Disagree. Hebrews teaches that faith in what Jesus did on the cross is what cleanses me from sin. You can't earn your salvation. Again, Hebrews and Romans teaches we are saved by Faith in Jesus, not anything we do. Your words contradict the Scriptures. I also believe in living holy and in discipleship, but I am saved by faith. That is scripture.

I thought we disagreed.

Actually, as I mentioned before, Acts, 1 Peter, and even Mark support the position of Baptism for the forgiveness of sins. In the Gospels Jesus taught Repentance for the forgiveness of sins. At the time it was written, the Hebrews saw blood as life, not death. Thinking oneself saved by faith is a nil if one does not recall scripture warning, "Faith without works is dead." This goes back to blood meaning "Life of Christ" where we follow closely the life, the Way, he taught us to live.

It seems to me that some decide what they want to believe and then find a couple of scriptures to back that belief. Isn't it better to study all scripture, along with the culture of the time, so that we have a clear view of the totality?

The reason I am making an issue of this is because when a fragment of Christianity is over emphasized, non-Christians quickly see the holes in logic, and like the Rorschach Test they fill in as suits their purposes.

Yet, you appear to be doing the very thing you warn against, taking a few scriptures and building a doctrine of salvation by baptism. Good works follow saving faith. You are falling into a common error that many people fall into, the "faith without works is dead" misconception that James is speaking about salvation. He isn't. Tell me, If I am dying without knowing about Jesus and someone shares with me the gospel and I believe on the Lord and ask his forgiveness of sin, then I die a few seconds later. Am I saved?

Yes. I read in the paper about a Hell's Angel who was given a Catholic church burial after a gang slaying. So the reporter asked the priest, how can you give a murderer and overall evil guy a Catholic funeral? The priest replied "he may have repented a half-second before he died". No joke.

 

[Meriweather]

Yet, you appear to be doing the very thing you warn against, taking a few scriptures and building a doctrine of salvation by baptism. Good works follow saving faith. You are falling into a common error that many people fall into, the "faith without works is dead" misconception that James is speaking about salvation. He isn't. Tell me, If I am dying without knowing about Jesus and someone shares with me the gospel and I believe on the Lord and ask his forgiveness of sin, then I die a few seconds later. Am I saved?

James is speaking of redemption, of living a redeemed life. "Saved" is a word from which I cringe. It seems to designate a single point in time where something irrevocable happens, instead of living an eternal life in the Kingdom. "Saved" always seems to be used as, "I'm going to heaven, guaranteed!" Since I am not the judge of anyone--whether that person has always lived life as a disciple of Christ (came to the vineyard early in the day) or one who came to the vineyard late in the day, I am not going to call it one way or the other other. Judgement is best left in the hands of God. But I do very much like the encouragement offed in the Parable of the Vineyard. I believe we are all in good hands. And that includes good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, etc.

 

[BS Filter]

Yet, you appear to be doing the very thing you warn against, taking a few scriptures and building a doctrine of salvation by baptism. Good works follow saving faith. You are falling into a common error that many people fall into, the "faith without works is dead" misconception that James is speaking about salvation. He isn't. Tell me, If I am dying without knowing about Jesus and someone shares with me the gospel and I believe on the Lord and ask his forgiveness of sin, then I die a few seconds later. Am I saved?

James is speaking of redemption, of living a redeemed life. "Saved" is a word from which I cringe. It seems to designate a single point in time where something irrevocable happens, instead of living an eternal life in the Kingdom. "Saved" always seems to be used as, "I'm going to heaven, guaranteed!" Since I am not the judge of anyone--whether that person has always lived life as a disciple of Christ (came to the vineyard early in the day) or one who came to the vineyard late in the day, I am not going to call it one way or the other other. Judgement is best left in the hands of God. But I do very much like the encouragement offed in the Parable of the Vineyard. I believe we are all in good hands. And that includes good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, etc.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. So you believe Jesus isn't the only way. Jesus said " No one comes to the Father but by Me". You don't believe the Scriptures. Being good earns you nothing. There is absolutely nothing you can do to overcome your sin.

 

[Meriweather]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. So you believe Jesus isn't the only way. Jesus said " No one comes to the Father but by Me". You don't believe the Scriptures. Being good earns you nothing. There is absolutely nothing you can do to overcome your sin.

No, we are getting further away. I believe Jesus is the Way to the Father. I also feel many who are on the Way may not know Jesus--which I feel is a great loss to them. I believe Scripture. What I don't believe is cherry picking and text proofing scripture to suit myself or make things easier. Always before me are the times God has chosen outside the group to do His will. Being good makes for an easy yoke and a fulfilling life. I don't consider that "earning" I consider that following the map that Jesus laid out for us.

I can turn away from sin. I can make amends for sin. I am not helpless in that regard.

 

[BS Filter]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. So you believe Jesus isn't the only way. Jesus said " No one comes to the Father but by Me". You don't believe the Scriptures. Being good earns you nothing. There is absolutely nothing you can do to overcome your sin.

No, we are getting further away. I believe Jesus is the Way to the Father. I also feel many who are on the Way may not know Jesus--which I feel is a great loss to them. I believe Scripture. What I don't believe is cherry picking and text proofing scripture to suit myself or make things easier. Always before me are the times God has chosen outside the group to do His will. Being good makes for an easy yoke and a fulfilling life. I don't consider that "earning" I consider that following the map that Jesus laid out for us.

I can turn away from sin. I can make amends for sin. I am not helpless in that regard.

You contradict yourself. In the previous post you stated Muslims, Buddhists and even athiests are in God's hands. I don't see that in Scripture. Where do you see it?

 

[Meriweather]

You contradict yourself. In the previous post you stated Muslims, Buddhists and even athiests are in God's hands. I don't see that in Scripture. Where do you see it?

No contradiction. Old Testament stories have accounts of non-Jews (Pagans, etc) being chosen to do God's will. Recall in those days there were not yet Muslims, Buddhists, etc, but if there were, they would have fallen under the Pagan heading as well.

 

[emilynghiem]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. So you believe Jesus isn't the only way. Jesus said " No one comes to the Father but by Me". You don't believe the Scriptures. Being good earns you nothing. There is absolutely nothing you can do to overcome your sin.

No, we are getting further away. I believe Jesus is the Way to the Father. I also feel many who are on the Way may not know Jesus--which I feel is a great loss to them. I believe Scripture. What I don't believe is cherry picking and text proofing scripture to suit myself or make things easier. Always before me are the times God has chosen outside the group to do His will. Being good makes for an easy yoke and a fulfilling life. I don't consider that "earning" I consider that following the map that Jesus laid out for us.

I can turn away from sin. I can make amends for sin. I am not helpless in that regard.

Dear BS Filter and Meriweather
I thought it was both.
Jesus is the spirit of God's Justice on a heavenly level.
This spirit of Universal Justice and Peace fulfills the
word or laws of God given to us through Scripture.

So the point is to reconcile the spirit of the laws
with the letter, and fulfill them. We do this as
the body of Christ by embracing and Receiving
God's Justice with Mercy which Christ Jesus represents embodies and fulfills.

We don't make "conditions" out of scripture.
It's the other way around.
Because we commit to follow Jesus or God's Laws of Justice
by faith, then the written laws and scriptural instructions follow as a consequence.
We naturally obey and do thing contained in the law
when we agree to follow the spirit of the laws in Christ.

 

[emilynghiem]

You contradict yourself. In the previous post you stated Muslims, Buddhists and even athiests are in God's hands. I don't see that in Scripture. Where do you see it?

No contradiction. Old Testament stories have accounts of non-Jews (Pagans, etc) being chosen to do God's will. Recall in those days there were not yet Muslims, Buddhists, etc, but if there were, they would have fallen under the Pagan heading as well.

Today's "pagan" would be called secular gentiles under natural laws.
The Buddhists, secular humanists, Constitutionalists, ethicists
and even social psychologists who study natural laws of humanity
fall under the Secular fold.

Jesus said he also governs this separate fold of the one flock.
Both branches are still governed by common values of Truth and Justice for Peace in society.
That is one of the secular names for God Christ and the Holy spirit:
Truth, Justice and Peace that are supposed to unify all humanity by these common values we share as one.