CDZ What would it take to change your mind re: 2020?

[candycorn]

A simple question: What, specifically, would change your mind regarding the legitimacy/illegitimacy of the 2020 election? Or, if a complete change is too much, what specifically would make you seriously question and reconsider your current view?

Is there anything? I've taken to asking this question around and been surprised to find that, despite the various calls for more investigations and audits, a great many people will openly declare that no conceivable findings could ever change their minds. Have our conclusions all become so absolute that they're immune to any possible evidence?

It would take a whole bunch of arrests:

Poll workers who ran the same ballots through multiple times for example

IT professionals who rigged voting machines

stuff like that. Arrests. Not allegations.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

You validate every mail-in vote and I’ll consider any change of opinion.
The most disturbing thing is the dishonesty of those who deny the elephants in the room.

 

[StormAl]

No evidence is the elephant in the room.

 

[SavannahMann]

For centuries everyone knew the Earth was flat. Then in time it was demonstrated that the Earth was in fact a sphere. Today despite satellites and men in space we have a few who honestly believe only they see the truth. The Earth is in fact flat.

They don’t believe the science. They don’t believe the evidence. It’s a huge conspiracy.

When dealing with deeply held beliefs. It is virtually impossible to convince someone that they are wrong. Truthfully this election controversy was always going to happen. Both sides announced loud and proud that the only way they could lose is if the other side cheated. Both sides had people who believed that in their hearts. So even if Trump won we would be facing all the conspiracy theory nonsense. The only difference being that the other side would be putting it out.

People with deeply held beliefs reject any arguments. It stems from the idea that they are good and right.

Take my beliefs. I believe that I am good. My lessons as a child taught me to believe in certain things. My parents and my teachers generally agreed. But I had doubts as a youth. I actually took time to examine each of my core beliefs. To find information to support and oppose it was easy thanks to libraries. In the end nearly every single belief was upheld. A few were modified slightly. None were destroyed.

This is why I am liberal in some areas. Conservative in others. It is why I say no party is right all the time. Yesterday I wrote a message outlining why I respected and admired Jimmy Carter. I also respect and admire Reagan. Clinton did some things right IMO.

I try and judge each person based not on party but on their actions and statements.

I voted for Obama. I voted for Trump in 2016. I didn’t vote in 2020. I didn’t like where either party was and refused to support either.

 

[alang1216]

I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.

You say the AZ audit seems sketchy, but how much do you know about how the GA audits were conducted?

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County - Tennessee Star

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County

tennesseestar.com

The GA audits were led by a Republican who had no reason to cover up fraud and every reason to uncover it. If a Republican led audit found fraud I'd be skeptical. If a Dem led audit found no fraud I'd be skeptical. If a GOP led audit found no fraud or a Dem led audit found fraud I'd be convinced, neither of these happened.

 

[Lastamender]

I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.

You say the AZ audit seems sketchy, but how much do you know about how the GA audits were conducted?

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County - Tennessee Star

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County

tennesseestar.com

The GA audits were led by a Republican who had no reason to cover up fraud and every reason to uncover it. If a Republican led audit found fraud I'd be skeptical. If a Dem led audit found no fraud I'd be skeptical. If a GOP led audit found no fraud or a Dem led audit found fraud I'd be convinced, neither of these happened.

Wrong. The SOS in GA. is corrupt. The audits and recounts were a joke.

 

[StormAl]

I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.

You say the AZ audit seems sketchy, but how much do you know about how the GA audits were conducted?

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County - Tennessee Star

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County

tennesseestar.com

The GA audits were led by a Republican who had no reason to cover up fraud and every reason to uncover it. If a Republican led audit found fraud I'd be skeptical. If a Dem led audit found no fraud I'd be skeptical. If a GOP led audit found no fraud or a Dem led audit found fraud I'd be convinced, neither of these happened.

Wrong. The SOS in GA. is corrupt. The audits and recounts were a joke.

They were led by Republicans, honest Republicans. So get over it.

 

[Turtlesoup]

To start it would have to be a legitimate investigation. Not one by "Ninja's".

Truth is Truth and FACT ISN'T FACT? You would ignore FACTS because of who found the FACTS? Don't expect others to be picky about where the Truth comes from.

 

[Lastamender]

I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.

You say the AZ audit seems sketchy, but how much do you know about how the GA audits were conducted?

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County - Tennessee Star

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County

tennesseestar.com

The GA audits were led by a Republican who had no reason to cover up fraud and every reason to uncover it. If a Republican led audit found fraud I'd be skeptical. If a Dem led audit found no fraud I'd be skeptical. If a GOP led audit found no fraud or a Dem led audit found fraud I'd be convinced, neither of these happened.

Wrong. The SOS in GA. is corrupt. The audits and recounts were a joke.

They were led by Republicans, honest Republicans. So get over it.

Brad Raffensperger GA SOS is corrupt liar, Intentional incompetence?, Picked Dominion Voting Systems and anti Trumper Gabriel Sterling, Certified fraudulent votes

Brad Raffensperger GA SOS is corrupt liar, Intentional incompetence?, Picked Dominion Voting Systems and anti Trumper Gabriel Sterling, Certified fraudulent votes “It’s more important for people to…

citizenwells.com

 

[StormAl]

The GOP has the right to audit the AZ election: end of story.

The DOJ has the constitutional right to make sure the ninjas doing the job transparently.

 

[Lastamender]

Breaking: Georgia’s Corrupt Sec. Of State Asks Court To Deny Access To ‘Paper Ballots’ In Audit

CLICK HERE

conservativedailypost.com

 

[StormAl]

The GA Sec. of State is Republican.

 

[alang1216]

I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.

You say the AZ audit seems sketchy, but how much do you know about how the GA audits were conducted?

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County - Tennessee Star

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County

tennesseestar.com

The GA audits were led by a Republican who had no reason to cover up fraud and every reason to uncover it. If a Republican led audit found fraud I'd be skeptical. If a Dem led audit found no fraud I'd be skeptical. If a GOP led audit found no fraud or a Dem led audit found fraud I'd be convinced, neither of these happened.

Wrong. The SOS in GA. is corrupt. The audits and recounts were a joke.

The SoS is a Republican isn't he? Is he corrupt and that is why he didn't find any fraud or is he corrupt because he didn't find any fraud? Got any evidence for either?

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

I can go first, since that's only fair.

There's a lot about the AZ audit that seems sketchy to me, but I know one thing they're supposedly doing is surveying people who are recorded as having voted to confirm that they did, in fact, vote. If Cyber Ninjas finds a major discrepancy on that front, I expect various other organizations or state governments will try to reproduce their results, both in Arizona and elsewhere. If those attempts consistently show a wide variance between recorded voters and self-reporting voters then, yeah, I'd have to get on board with the idea that something very sinister screwed with the 2020 election.

There are probably other ways to get there too, but that's the one strikes me as reasonable and not requiring any highly improbable events.

So that's what would change my mind now. Looking back I can see a number of times when, had things gone differently, I would have had to change my mind along the way. Many of them involved recounts, such as in Georgia, where there were claims that election workers had fed the same ballots through the machines over and over and over again. I was dubious (though that famous one video clip did make me stop and work on learning more), but if the recounts had significantly differed from the original count such that the ultimate result was in doubt, I was ready to conclude that the process of fundamentally compromised.

Another key moment was the Allied Securities audit of Atrium County in Michigan (remember that one?) when Russell Ramsland's analysis purportedly showed that the Dominion machines were systematically skewing the vote count. I have a friend who firmly believed that was the smoking gun and that a hand recount, without using the tampered machines, would prove it. I was iffy, Ramsland's track record is not great, but had to agree that if the machine count and the hand count were substantially different from one another, then yes there was clearly fraud happening in one or the other (if not both).

The other test I set for myself was watching State governors and State Sec. States. I knew a number of Republican governors and Sec. States were standing firmly by their state's results for Biden, which I thought was telling (particularly in the case of Kemp, who was pretty much universally acknowledged to be a pro-Trump Republican until that moment). What I wanted to see was if ANY Democratic governors or Sec States would call into question their state's results for Biden. E.G. Had Gov. Wolfe in Pennsylvania raised any doubt about the legitimacy of PA's result, that would have immediately called the whole thing into question for me.

None of that played out, of course. The GA recounts all agreed with a tiny margin of error, even on a county-by-county level; the Atrium county hand count was effectively the same as the machine count, wholly defying Ramsland's predictions; and as far as I know, not a single gov. or sec. state, Democrat or Republican, has claimed their state's results were illegitimate. So that's why I'm where I am.

You say the AZ audit seems sketchy, but how much do you know about how the GA audits were conducted?

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County - Tennessee Star

Major Flaws in Georgia Secretary of State's 'Audit' of Absentee Ballot Signature Matching in Cobb County

tennesseestar.com

The GA audits were led by a Republican who had no reason to cover up fraud and every reason to uncover it. If a Republican led audit found fraud I'd be skeptical. If a Dem led audit found no fraud I'd be skeptical. If a GOP led audit found no fraud or a Dem led audit found fraud I'd be convinced, neither of these happened.

Wrong. The SOS in GA. is corrupt. The audits and recounts were a joke.

The SoS is a Republican isn't he? Is he corrupt and that is why he didn't find any fraud or is he corrupt because he didn't find any fraud? Got any evidence for either?

He’s probably corrupt because he’s corrupt.
See, non-democrats hold all corrupt people accountable.

 

[pknopp]

To start it would have to be a legitimate investigation. Not one by "Ninja's".

Truth is Truth and FACT ISN'T FACT? You would ignore FACTS because of who found the FACTS? Don't expect others to be picky about where the Truth comes from.

NINJA'S!!

 

[alang1216]

The GOP has the right to audit the AZ election: end of story.

The DOJ has the constitutional right to make sure the ninjas doing the job transparently.

I'm not sure either is correct. The GOP has the right to request an audit but it may have violated Federal election law by giving custody of the ballots to a commercial firm.

 

[alang1216]

He’s probably corrupt because he’s corrupt.

Insightful. Thanks, I've just done a 180.

 

[RoshawnMarkwees]

He’s probably corrupt because he’s corrupt.

Insightful. Thanks, I've just done a 180.

I doubt it.

 

[dblack]

A simple question: What, specifically, would change your mind regarding the legitimacy/illegitimacy of the 2020 election? Or, if a complete change is too much, what specifically would make you seriously question and reconsider your current view?

Is there anything? I've taken to asking this question around and been surprised to find that, despite the various calls for more investigations and audits, a great many people will openly declare that no conceivable findings could ever change their minds. Have our conclusions all become so absolute that they're immune to any possible evidence?

Actual evidence of a widespread conspiracy to cheat would work. Something besides anomalous data. And frankly, if there were such widespread conspiracy, it should be pretty easy.

 

[alang1216]

To start it would have to be a legitimate investigation. Not one by "Ninja's".

Truth is Truth and FACT ISN'T FACT? You would ignore FACTS because of who found the FACTS? Don't expect others to be picky about where the Truth comes from.

The Ninja's have no real oversight or transparency. If they held up a ballot and said it was unreadable who verified it, how did they do it, and how do we know it was unreadable BEFORE the Ninjas took over custody?