What's the Big Deal About This?

[MaryL]

I am not baiting anyone here. But why is it that Islam has no hierarchy? Every religion (other than Islam) has the ultimate overarching authority? Some local bearded whattzit can hand out crack pot decrees and nobody anywhere can answer for this creep? Stoning little old ladies to death, hits on authors with unpopular messages, non Muslims in Arabian bases caused the attacks on America on 9/11. How come Muslims are so out of control? Ultimately, WHO in Islam answers for all this?

 

[thebrucebeat]

Interestingly, if Christians put a bounty on the heads of everyone that mocked or ridiculed Christianity a huge portion of the members of this board alone would be on the "most wanted list." Atheists, agnostics, evolutionists, humanists, communists, pagans, and any other group that denied Jesus Christ or mocked him would be "fair game." I guess it's good for them that Christianity is a kinder and more peaceful religion.

Christianity is a kinder and more peaceful religion? Since when?

Actually, I can answer that: since the secular institutions put a choke collar on religion.

You choose to ignore that Christianity was just as violent and intransigent as islam is now. Islam is only 1300 years old, and behaves precisely like a 1300 year old religion has been known to behave. Christianity and Judaism were violent religious entities when they were 1300 years old too, still too committed to childish superstitions and “us vs. them" mentalities. Islam is at that “us vs. them", just more so than Christianity and Judaism currently. Christianity has mellowed on its, “we’re right, we're going to kill you now", mentality about 300 years ago. Judaism, over 2000 years ago (but Judaism is far older than Christianity or Islam). Islam is just ramping up into that phase. All religions go through this, much to the pain and suffering of those innocents unlucky enough to be around them.

In the West, we are citizens of a free society, entitled to free speech and freedom from religion. The fate of our hard won freedoms won't be allowed to slip away at the hands of minority zealots who would wish to roll back the freedoms that we have sacrificed so much to maintain.

The infection of religiously inspired hate and intolerance has had a long history in Western civilization and it came from the church.

The founders were Christian and created a Constitution allowing freedoms previously unheard of in any other nation on earth. Like it or not you have God and our Founding Fathers to thank for your freedom to speak your mind or believe as you wish. I know you hate that but it's true nonetheless.

The first Congress of the USA sponsored the printing of a Bible in the USA and suggested that it be given to the inhabitants of America. The link is in my signature line.

We have Christianity to thank for the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, World Vision, and many, many others. Here in Denver we have the Denver Rescue Mission that feeds thousands of homeless folks each week. They have temporary housing and will help poverty-stricken people get the medical attention than some need.

I realize that you are filled to the brim with hatred for Christ, the Bible, and Christians but if you could wipe the scales from your eyes for just a moment or two you would see that Bible-believing Christians are a great benefit to their fellow man. Just in my area alone I can think of three hospitals founded by Christian denominations: There's a Lutheran hospital, a Presbyterian hospital, and a Catholic hospital. I've yet to see a "Marxist Hospital" or an "Atheist Hospital." Just sayin'.

Ben Franklin wanted to start the Constitutional Congress sessions with prayer. He was voted down.
What do you think of UNICEF, Doctors Without Borders, The Smile Project?
You don't have a monopoly on caring for others.
Some bible believing Christians may be reaching out with love. Others do it with hate. There is no singular manifestation of belief, and you putting a bow on it won't change that. Westboro exists, too.

 

[PostmodernProph]

I am not baiting anyone here. But why is it that Islam has no hierarchy? Every religion (other than Islam) has the ultimate overarching authority? Some local bearded whattzit can hand out crack pot decrees and nobody anywhere can answer for this creep? Stoning little old ladies to death, hits on authors with unpopular messages, non Muslims in Arabian bases caused the attacks on America on 9/11. How come Muslims are so out of control? Ultimately, WHO in Islam answers for all this?

uh, Christianity doesn't have an ultimate overarching authority....that's why there's a Pope AND the Rev. Phelps.....

 

[theDoctorisIn]

You guys don't see how it might be disrespectful to put your shoes up on the single focus point of the entire religion - the holiest artifact in the world to Muslims?

They didn't mind tearing down other sects' temples, and in fact built this disgusting monument to mass murder and looting on top of another religion's temple mount.

If the One True Cross was found, would you be ok with someone grinding a cigarette out on it?

Would you be okay with that?

I think you might be a little confused. Mecca was never "another religion's temple mount".

And no, I wouldn't. That's my fucking point.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I am not baiting anyone here. But why is it that Islam has no hierarchy? Every religion (other than Islam) has the ultimate overarching authority? Some local bearded whattzit can hand out crack pot decrees and nobody anywhere can answer for this creep? Stoning little old ladies to death, hits on authors with unpopular messages, non Muslims in Arabian bases caused the attacks on America on 9/11. How come Muslims are so out of control? Ultimately, WHO in Islam answers for all this?

There are countless different sects and traditions in Islam, all with their own hierarchies and structures - some going back to the days of Muhammed.

Just like there are countless sects of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc, etc. All with their own hierarchies and structures.

There's no ultimate Christian authority, or ultimate Jewish authority either.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

You guys don't see how it might be disrespectful to put your shoes up on the single focus point of the entire religion - the holiest artifact in the world to Muslims?

If the One True Cross was found, would you be ok with someone grinding a cigarette out on it?

Someone already put a cross in a jar for of urine and called it art. It upset some people but we turned the other cheek for the most part but the Muslims can't. Which group would show you mercy?

I guess we have different definitions of "turning the other cheek".

I remember Christians flipping the fuck out about it all over the country. I remember the same thing happening in NY with the Virgin Mary poop painting.

None of that is important, anyway. You can only control your own actions - and if you think "they did it first" is a valid moral argument, there isn't much I can do for you.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

You guys don't see how it might be disrespectful to put your shoes up on the single focus point of the entire religion - the holiest artifact in the world to Muslims?

If the One True Cross was found, would you be ok with someone grinding a cigarette out on it?

Probably not, but as Chuck pointed out, we deal with the disrespect shown to Christians, differently. When upside down crosses, crapped on crosses, crosses suspended in urine appear, it is disturbing to us.

On the other hand, that man had better never leave home without His gun. I have a feeling he is going to need it.

I doubt it. Mecca is one of the safest cities in the entire world.

 

[DriftingSand]

Christianity is a kinder and more peaceful religion? Since when?

Actually, I can answer that: since the secular institutions put a choke collar on religion.

You choose to ignore that Christianity was just as violent and intransigent as islam is now. Islam is only 1300 years old, and behaves precisely like a 1300 year old religion has been known to behave. Christianity and Judaism were violent religious entities when they were 1300 years old too, still too committed to childish superstitions and “us vs. them" mentalities. Islam is at that “us vs. them", just more so than Christianity and Judaism currently. Christianity has mellowed on its, “we’re right, we're going to kill you now", mentality about 300 years ago. Judaism, over 2000 years ago (but Judaism is far older than Christianity or Islam). Islam is just ramping up into that phase. All religions go through this, much to the pain and suffering of those innocents unlucky enough to be around them.

In the West, we are citizens of a free society, entitled to free speech and freedom from religion. The fate of our hard won freedoms won't be allowed to slip away at the hands of minority zealots who would wish to roll back the freedoms that we have sacrificed so much to maintain.

The infection of religiously inspired hate and intolerance has had a long history in Western civilization and it came from the church.

The founders were Christian and created a Constitution allowing freedoms previously unheard of in any other nation on earth. Like it or not you have God and our Founding Fathers to thank for your freedom to speak your mind or believe as you wish. I know you hate that but it's true nonetheless.

The first Congress of the USA sponsored the printing of a Bible in the USA and suggested that it be given to the inhabitants of America. The link is in my signature line.

We have Christianity to thank for the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, World Vision, and many, many others. Here in Denver we have the Denver Rescue Mission that feeds thousands of homeless folks each week. They have temporary housing and will help poverty-stricken people get the medical attention than some need.

I realize that you are filled to the brim with hatred for Christ, the Bible, and Christians but if you could wipe the scales from your eyes for just a moment or two you would see that Bible-believing Christians are a great benefit to their fellow man. Just in my area alone I can think of three hospitals founded by Christian denominations: There's a Lutheran hospital, a Presbyterian hospital, and a Catholic hospital. I've yet to see a "Marxist Hospital" or an "Atheist Hospital." Just sayin'.

Ben Franklin wanted to start the Constitutional Congress sessions with prayer. He was voted down.
What do you think of UNICEF, Doctors Without Borders, The Smile Project?
You don't have a monopoly on caring for others.
Some bible believing Christians may be reaching out with love. Others do it with hate. There is no singular manifestation of belief, and you putting a bow on it won't change that. Westboro exists, too.

Franklin was not voted down. Ultimately, his suggestion was agreed upon and pray they did. http://declaringamerica.com/franklin-request-for-prayer-at-the-constitutional-convention-1787/

Take a look at how much money goes into UNICEF's CEO's pocket. It's downright disgusting. Annual income? $454,855.00 Caryl Stern, CEO - Salary Email | UNICEF USA All those charitable donations to pay for a half-a-million dollar salary?

But just try comparing all the Christian charities to "all" the atheistic ones and there's no comparison.

Westboro, like Jim Jones, never represented a Christian approach to social situations. Christ was apposed to homosexuality but he didn't mock the families of dead homosexuals as they were burying their dead -- nor did He ever send His followers to do such a thing. The Bible says that we shall "know them by their fruit" and Westboro's fruit was rotten.

 

[thebrucebeat]

The founders were Christian and created a Constitution allowing freedoms previously unheard of in any other nation on earth. Like it or not you have God and our Founding Fathers to thank for your freedom to speak your mind or believe as you wish. I know you hate that but it's true nonetheless.

The first Congress of the USA sponsored the printing of a Bible in the USA and suggested that it be given to the inhabitants of America. The link is in my signature line.

We have Christianity to thank for the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, World Vision, and many, many others. Here in Denver we have the Denver Rescue Mission that feeds thousands of homeless folks each week. They have temporary housing and will help poverty-stricken people get the medical attention than some need.

I realize that you are filled to the brim with hatred for Christ, the Bible, and Christians but if you could wipe the scales from your eyes for just a moment or two you would see that Bible-believing Christians are a great benefit to their fellow man. Just in my area alone I can think of three hospitals founded by Christian denominations: There's a Lutheran hospital, a Presbyterian hospital, and a Catholic hospital. I've yet to see a "Marxist Hospital" or an "Atheist Hospital." Just sayin'.

Ben Franklin wanted to start the Constitutional Congress sessions with prayer. He was voted down.
What do you think of UNICEF, Doctors Without Borders, The Smile Project?
You don't have a monopoly on caring for others.
Some bible believing Christians may be reaching out with love. Others do it with hate. There is no singular manifestation of belief, and you putting a bow on it won't change that. Westboro exists, too.

Franklin was not voted down. Ultimately, his suggestion was agreed upon and pray they did. Franklin, Request for Prayer at the Constitutional Convention, 1787

Take a look at how much money goes into UNICEF's CEO's pocket. It's downright disgusting. Annual income? $454,855.00 Caryl Stern, CEO - Salary Email | UNICEF USA All those charitable donations to pay for a half-a-million dollar salary?

But just try comparing all the Christian charities to "all" the atheistic ones and there's no comparison.

Westboro, like Jim Jones, never represented a Christian approach to social situations. Christ was apposed to homosexuality but he didn't mock the families of dead homosexuals as they were burying their dead -- nor did He ever send His followers to do such a thing. The Bible says that we shall "know them by their fruit" and Westboro's fruit was rotten.

Correction. It was not voted down. It was never passed as they adjourned before the motion was ever voted upon, as your link shows. Do you even read the stuff you link to?
The CEO of UNICEF makes approximately what a GM at a good sized car dealership makes. Over 90% of their donations go to services. They have a 4 out of 4 star rating by the charity watchdog Charity Navigator.
Nice try.
Westboro is as representative as any other group that creates their interpretation of the scripture. There is no identifiable "True Scotsman" but simply many greatly varied competitors for the crown. One man finds Westboro abhorrent, another the Quakers, and there is no way to determine who has mastered the understanding of the Almighty.
Except you, of course.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I openly admit that I have little or no positive feelings about Islam so posting this is clearly another statement by me in that vein.

And consequently this and similar threads fail as you continue to exhibit your ignorance of a hasty generalization fallacy.

 

[Picaro]

Constantine did exactly the same thing in Rome to the pagan temples.

And what? That means they're absolved or something and gives them Sniveling Rights?

It means all religions mark their territory by peeing on the faith that came before them.
Christianity was no different.

So you didn't really have a point, just a vague attempt at some sort of 'moral equivalency' hubris. Okay.

 

[Picaro]

I think you might be a little confused. Mecca was never "another religion's temple mount".

And no, I wouldn't. That's my fucking point.

Actually it was indeed another religion's center, several in fact. Mecca was a holy site for at least a thousand years before Mohamed turned it into a tourist trap for his political cult. They built their mosque in Jerusalem on another religion's central site. Nobody should care about their sniveling re 'desecration' of anything.

 

[Politico]

No one is going to kill anyone for posting a cartoon of Mohammed. If you don;t believe me I will post one and prove it.

 

[Hollie]

Interestingly, if Christians put a bounty on the heads of everyone that mocked or ridiculed Christianity a huge portion of the members of this board alone would be on the "most wanted list." Atheists, agnostics, evolutionists, humanists, communists, pagans, and any other group that denied Jesus Christ or mocked him would be "fair game." I guess it's good for them that Christianity is a kinder and more peaceful religion.

Christianity is a kinder and more peaceful religion? Since when?

Actually, I can answer that: since the secular institutions put a choke collar on religion.

You choose to ignore that Christianity was just as violent and intransigent as islam is now. Islam is only 1300 years old, and behaves precisely like a 1300 year old religion has been known to behave. Christianity and Judaism were violent religious entities when they were 1300 years old too, still too committed to childish superstitions and “us vs. them" mentalities. Islam is at that “us vs. them", just more so than Christianity and Judaism currently. Christianity has mellowed on its, “we’re right, we're going to kill you now", mentality about 300 years ago. Judaism, over 2000 years ago (but Judaism is far older than Christianity or Islam). Islam is just ramping up into that phase. All religions go through this, much to the pain and suffering of those innocents unlucky enough to be around them.

In the West, we are citizens of a free society, entitled to free speech and freedom from religion. The fate of our hard won freedoms won't be allowed to slip away at the hands of minority zealots who would wish to roll back the freedoms that we have sacrificed so much to maintain.

The infection of religiously inspired hate and intolerance has had a long history in Western civilization and it came from the church.

The founders were Christian and created a Constitution allowing freedoms previously unheard of in any other nation on earth. Like it or not you have God and our Founding Fathers to thank for your freedom to speak your mind or believe as you wish. I know you hate that but it's true nonetheless.

The first Congress of the USA sponsored the printing of a Bible in the USA and suggested that it be given to the inhabitants of America. The link is in my signature line.

We have Christianity to thank for the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, World Vision, and many, many others. Here in Denver we have the Denver Rescue Mission that feeds thousands of homeless folks each week. They have temporary housing and will help poverty-stricken people get the medical attention than some need.

I realize that you are filled to the brim with hatred for Christ, the Bible, and Christians but if you could wipe the scales from your eyes for just a moment or two you would see that Bible-believing Christians are a great benefit to their fellow man. Just in my area alone I can think of three hospitals founded by Christian denominations: There's a Lutheran hospital, a Presbyterian hospital, and a Catholic hospital. I've yet to see a "Marxist Hospital" or an "Atheist Hospital." Just sayin'.

If you're just sayin', you shouldn't be just sayin' falsehoods. Some of the founding fathers were Christian, some were not. You seem to be confused about the vision of the FF's. They envisioned a long flourishing, pluralistic nation. They knew enough about religion to understand that majority religions are poorly disposed toward competing religions. How interesting that this "Christian nation" as fundies would describe it was established with a muzzle on government interference in the religious matters of the citizenry.

Whether you like it or not, I actually don't have your gods and I'm not forced to kowtow to your gods or anyone else's gods. Thanks to the vision of the FF's, I'm free from your religious beliefs being forced on to the public.

Yes, we have freedom from religion.

I realize your fundamentalist beliefs cause you revulsion for those who don't share your religious beliefs but you need to understand that there are fringe elements in all religions where extremists find those like themselves.

Fundie Christians also have to accept responsibility for the damage to humanity their religion has caused. From the Dark Ages to Inquisitions to televangelists to child abuse syndicates run by the Catholic Church, religions have a history of death and misery in their wake.

Altruism is not proprietary to religions and certainly not to Christianity.

 

[Papageorgio]

You guys don't see how it might be disrespectful to put your shoes up on the single focus point of the entire religion - the holiest artifact in the world to Muslims?

If the One True Cross was found, would you be ok with someone grinding a cigarette out on it?

Someone already put a cross in a jar for of urine and called it art. It upset some people but we turned the other cheek for the most part but the Muslims can't. Which group would show you mercy?

Turned the other cheek my butt!
Protests broke out and calls for the disintegration of the NEA resounded around the country and resulted in a massive defunding of the organization.
People flipped out.
Remove the plank before taking aim on the others speck.

So the artist was put on a hit list? How many people were killed over that piece of art? How many lives were threatened when the artist did that?

Most thought the NEA needed to be defunded long before the stupid thing was put on display as art. The whole point was a guy could pee in a jar, put a cross in upside down and it was art? He was paid by the government for what any two year old could but was smart enough not to?

Seriously, think before you post stupidity.


Sent from my iPad using an Android.

 

[Picaro]

So the artist was put on a hit list? How many people were killed over that piece of art? How many lives were threatened when the artist did that?

Most thought the NEA needed to be defunded long before the stupid thing was put on display as art. The whole point was a guy could pee in a jar, put a cross in upside down and it was art? He was paid by the government for what any two year old could but was smart enough not to?

Seriously, think before you post stupidity..

Yes, the obvious double standard in their views of 'freedom' are pure hypocrisy. They don't mind deliberately insulting and desecrating religious icons and symbols, but snivel and whine when there is any display of Christian religion anywhere. There is allegedly some sort of imaginary 'right' to not be all offended n stuff by Xianity, but incessant slandering, lying about, insulting, and debasement and mocking of religion persons is somehow fine. It's obviously a pathological mental illness in some, if not most, 'New Atheists'.

As for the claim that the 'Founders' meant freedom from religion is pure BS. Thomas Jefferson and many other 'Founders' attended Christian church services while in Washington in such places as the Treasury building and other Federal buildings, and that 'freedom' didn't apply to the states governments, according to them, either, as many states had established official state religions for decades after 1789, not to mention having religious symbols incorporated into the architectures of Federal buildings that had already been built and were built later. This is U.S. history; whether you like it or not, or really really hate Jerry Falwell or whatever is never going to change that.

 

[Disir]

Interestingly, if Christians put a bounty on the heads of everyone that mocked or ridiculed Christianity a huge portion of the members of this board alone would be on the "most wanted list." Atheists, agnostics, evolutionists, humanists, communists, pagans, and any other group that denied Jesus Christ or mocked him would be "fair game." I guess it's good for them that Christianity is a kinder and more peaceful religion.

Christianity is a kinder and more peaceful religion? Since when?

Actually, I can answer that: since the secular institutions put a choke collar on religion.

You choose to ignore that Christianity was just as violent and intransigent as islam is now. Islam is only 1300 years old, and behaves precisely like a 1300 year old religion has been known to behave. Christianity and Judaism were violent religious entities when they were 1300 years old too, still too committed to childish superstitions and “us vs. them" mentalities. Islam is at that “us vs. them", just more so than Christianity and Judaism currently. Christianity has mellowed on its, “we’re right, we're going to kill you now", mentality about 300 years ago. Judaism, over 2000 years ago (but Judaism is far older than Christianity or Islam). Islam is just ramping up into that phase. All religions go through this, much to the pain and suffering of those innocents unlucky enough to be around them.

In the West, we are citizens of a free society, entitled to free speech and freedom from religion. The fate of our hard won freedoms won't be allowed to slip away at the hands of minority zealots who would wish to roll back the freedoms that we have sacrificed so much to maintain.

The infection of religiously inspired hate and intolerance has had a long history in Western civilization and it came from the church.

The founders were Christian and created a Constitution allowing freedoms previously unheard of in any other nation on earth. Like it or not you have God and our Founding Fathers to thank for your freedom to speak your mind or believe as you wish. I know you hate that but it's true nonetheless.

The first Congress of the USA sponsored the printing of a Bible in the USA and suggested that it be given to the inhabitants of America. The link is in my signature line.

We have Christianity to thank for the Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, World Vision, and many, many others. Here in Denver we have the Denver Rescue Mission that feeds thousands of homeless folks each week. They have temporary housing and will help poverty-stricken people get the medical attention than some need.

I realize that you are filled to the brim with hatred for Christ, the Bible, and Christians but if you could wipe the scales from your eyes for just a moment or two you would see that Bible-believing Christians are a great benefit to their fellow man. Just in my area alone I can think of three hospitals founded by Christian denominations: There's a Lutheran hospital, a Presbyterian hospital, and a Catholic hospital. I've yet to see a "Marxist Hospital" or an "Atheist Hospital." Just sayin'.

About that congress:

A quick note before getting into the book excerpt below: Because I went in chronological order, the chapter begins with the myth that the Continental Congress imported Bibles in 1777. This other story, about an earlier unfulfilled request to Congress to import Bibles during the war, made by a Rev. Alison, is referenced a few times in the story of the 1782 Aitken Bible. This is because some of the revisionists, including Barton, attempt to connect these two stories, even though there is absolutely no connection between them. All you really need to know for the purposes of understanding these references in this excerpt is that the Continental Congress did not import any Bibles in 1777, but if you do want to read the whole 1777 Bible story, the entire "Congress and the Bible" chapter is available as a sample chapter PDF on my website. (And for any history geeks or skeptics who want to verify my sources, you can also view images of all the documents cited in my footnotes in my footnote archive. I've left the footnote numbers here as they are numbered in the book so they correspond with the numbers in the archive.)

Now, on to the story:

| No, Mr. Beck, Congress Did Not Print a Bible for the Use of Schools

 

[Disir]

So the artist was put on a hit list? How many people were killed over that piece of art? How many lives were threatened when the artist did that?

Most thought the NEA needed to be defunded long before the stupid thing was put on display as art. The whole point was a guy could pee in a jar, put a cross in upside down and it was art? He was paid by the government for what any two year old could but was smart enough not to?

Seriously, think before you post stupidity..

Yes, the obvious double standard in their views of 'freedom' are pure hypocrisy. They don't mind deliberately insulting and desecrating religious icons and symbols, but snivel and whine when there is any display of Christian religion anywhere. There is allegedly some sort of imaginary 'right' to not be all offended n stuff by Xianity, but incessant slandering, lying about, insulting, and debasement and mocking of religion persons is somehow fine. It's obviously a pathological mental illness in some, if not most, 'New Atheists'.

As for the claim that the 'Founders' meant freedom from religion is pure BS. Thomas Jefferson and many other 'Founders' attended Christian church services while in Washington in such places as the Treasury building and other Federal buildings, and that 'freedom' didn't apply to the states governments, according to them, either, as many states had established official state religions for decades after 1789, not to mention having religious symbols incorporated into the architectures of Federal buildings that had already been built and were built later. This is U.S. history; whether you like it or not, or really really hate Jerry Falwell or whatever is never going to change that.

You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

 

[Picaro]

You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

Well, a lot of them were lawyers, and certainly knew the difference between 'of' and 'from'. In any case, public displays of religion don't violate any freedom from religion. You aren't forced to believe in anything, and freedom of religion covers everybody's rights of free speech as well. Somebody being offended by expressions of Christianity is a not a 'right' being violated.

 

[Hollie]

You can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

Well, a lot of them were lawyers, and certainly knew the difference between 'of' and 'from'. In any case, public displays of religion don't violate any freedom from religion. You aren't forced to believe in anything, and freedom of religion covers everybody's rights of free speech as well. Somebody being offended by expressions of Christianity is a not a 'right' being violated.

It's really a very simple matter. Freedom from religion means I am not forced to acknowledge the dominant religion and I am free from any religious compulsion.