When did Junk Plans become Junk Plans

[Mac1958]

[


While I prefer the plan I provided, I would actually take single payer over this horrific monstrosity. The Democrats were afraid to have that conversation, so here we are. And you guys will have to defend it.

This is gonna be a shitstorm, so have your ducks in a row to spin for it.

.

Guy, I've been hearing that shit from the "Oh my god, the Black guy stole Romney's Plan" crowd for the last four years. ObamaCare is going to eat your babies and shit. It's tiresome.

Do I think ObamaCare made too many comprimises in order to get passed? Yup.

Do I think it's needlessly bureaucratic? Absolutely.

Is it still a damn sight better than what we had? Yes, yes it is.

A damn sight better?

The name of the law should be changed to fit what it does.

It makes health care less affordable, so the name doesn't fit. That is what it does. That, contrary to what you claim, is what it's designed to do.

The damage is already happening, and it was all predictable.

We can also look at the wheels in motion and see clearly where they are going.

All I'd have to do is point at it and say, "holy shit, look at THAT."

But I'd be wasting my time.

.

 

[The Rabbi]

FYI, The Rainmaker is about a lawyer who who sues an insurance company for not paying an insurance claim. It is a straight up case of insurance fraud, and has less to do with junk plans than the many plans that Obama currently hates for exposing his lies.

His proof comes from a Hollywood movie. What does that say about the veracity of the rest of his post?
How many policies sold were actually scams? Yeah, not a lot. Because if they were that bad people would cancel them.
It is the leftist world view that unless gov't is there to "help" people are just too damn stupid to figure it out for themselves.

First of all, my proof is not based on a Hollywood movie. However, the movie gives an excellent example of how the junk insurance plans cheat Americans. As you are apparently not smart enough to read or understand what is going on I thought a visual aid may be a help to you.
And as for people cancelling their plans when the find out they are trash, THEY DO NOT FIND OUT THEY ARE TRASH UNTIL THEY FILE A CLAIM. Then when they do file a claim and find out their plan WILL NOT help them it is to late to do anything about it. The primary reason given for filing for personnal bankrupcy in this country is the inability to pay medical expenses. Almost 2,000,000 people file for bankrupcy due to medical costs in this country each year. Most of them probably have junk plans that have declined their claims.
Oh, and as for that village in Kenya that is missing its idiot, it sounds like a real opportunity for you. Have you applied? You should.

Since that was the only proof you gave, your proof is based on a Hollywood movie.
The primary reason for bankruptcy is credit card debt, not medical expenses. But even if it were, that is irreelvant here. Plenty of people have medical insurance and still have to file. So what?
People chose those plans and paid for them. Sometimes they maintained them for years. They were clearly not all "junk" plans. The vast majority were not. The proof is that they were renewed year after year.

 

[zeke]

Joe, this is all about the "8 figure salaries" for you, it's not about what I wrote. You're going to defend this horrific law no matter what it costs or damages, because you just want to get those guys.

.

The Horrific Part was what "those guys" did. Sold people shit insurance, and then claimed Acne was a pre-existing condition for cancer or that a liver transplant was "expiramental" and let a 17 year old girl die. And then they collected their 8 figure salaries and thought all was good, with 46 million uninsured and 25 million underinsured (most of the plans that are being cancelled).

Now, we could have just extended Medicare to everyone, and called it a day. Doctors wouldn't like not making as much money, and the other parasites would be eliminated completely...

But you guys were so intent that "those guys" get to keep making their profits, and things that would have prevented these problems like a Public Option or a Medicare Buy-In for those over 55 (who can't get decent insurance for love or money), and now you are weeping crocadile tears for the poor schlub who didn't realize how badly he was being ripped off?

Joe, it really is clear you don't know how this works, and that you're buying in to the standard propaganda because it fits nicely with your rage. I get that.

Your post is so replete with a lack of understanding that I don't have the energy.

And before you (once again) simplistically lump me in with "you guys", you may want to review what I would like to see, which is based on a decent understanding of health care costing, pricing, reimbursement and delivery, and not on rage & ignorance: Post 43, http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

You're very angry and you simply and clearly don't understand the terribly complex nature of the topic you're discussing. Not much I can do with that.

.

LMAO. Everybody is "very angry" if they don't agree with you Mac. You ever notice that?
And how is it that YOU are the only one with "understanding". But no solutions eh? Just what good is your supposed understanding if you can't solve any of the problems? Just curious, don't go off on how I must be so angry.

I'm not angry Mac, I have decent health coverage. My daughter with cervical cancer issues got health care through Obamacare. Yea Mac this is a terrible thing.

You don't have a good health insurance policy do you MAc?

 

[Darkwind]

Is the far left afraid of this thread as well?

Does this not fit into their programmed talking points?

Do the far left blog sites talk about this?

Haven't seen one.

After all, this is what he really "meant" according to dumbass Pelosi.

You'd think we'd see something.

I am not even saying it isn't out there.

The left should be just as pissed at this as the right. They were lied to and now they are being expected, like Jay Blarney, to carry bullshyt instead of water.

Like I said, maybe they exist.

Maybe they are waking up to the fact that Obama & Co. not only lied to America, but to them specifically. Remember, not a single GOP vote was cast on this law. Which means, that the Dems were lied to about keeping your doctor and healthcare plan if you were happy with it.

The optics, they are not quite what they should be for them, eh?

 

[The Rabbi]

[


While I prefer the plan I provided, I would actually take single payer over this horrific monstrosity. The Democrats were afraid to have that conversation, so here we are. And you guys will have to defend it.

This is gonna be a shitstorm, so have your ducks in a row to spin for it.

.

Guy, I've been hearing that shit from the "Oh my god, the Black guy stole Romney's Plan" crowd for the last four years. ObamaCare is going to eat your babies and shit. It's tiresome.

Do I think ObamaCare made too many comprimises in order to get passed? Yup.

Do I think it's needlessly bureaucratic? Absolutely.

Is it still a damn sight better than what we had? Yes, yes it is.

A damn sight better?

The name of the law should be changed to fit what it does.

It makes health care less affordable, so the name doesn't fit. That is what it does. That, contrary to what you claim, is what it's designed to do.

See to Joe anything that sticks it to people and gives government more control is a damn sight better.
Obamacare has raised medical costs, including insurance premiums, tremendously for the average person. It has caused more people to be uninsured than to be insured.
In all Obamacare has failed every promise that was made for it. Every single one.
If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it. Period.
Obamacare will not add one thin dime to the deficit
Obamacare will bend the cost curve down.
Every one of these statements was a lie. And the people saying it knew it was a lie.

 

[JoeB131]

[

See to Joe anything that sticks it to people and gives government more control is a damn sight better.
Obamacare has raised medical costs, including insurance premiums, tremendously for the average person. It has caused more people to be uninsured than to be insured.
In all Obamacare has failed every promise that was made for it. Every single one.
If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it. Period.
Obamacare will not add one thin dime to the deficit
Obamacare will bend the cost curve down.
Every one of these statements was a lie. And the people saying it knew it was a lie.

Guy, my insurance costs the same next year as it does this year. And the same is the case for most of the 130 million people who get their insurance through their employers or unions.

It also costs the same for the 100 million who are already getting care through government programs.

So most "average" people, no change.

46 million people who weren't covered before are getting an improvement.

The people who are having a problem are about 5 million who bought cut-rate plans that didn't cover anything.

BUt keep screaming hysterically, like you guys did with Social Security and Medicare. ObamaCare will eventually become a third rail you don't dare touch.

 

[Mac1958]

The Horrific Part was what "those guys" did. Sold people shit insurance, and then claimed Acne was a pre-existing condition for cancer or that a liver transplant was "expiramental" and let a 17 year old girl die. And then they collected their 8 figure salaries and thought all was good, with 46 million uninsured and 25 million underinsured (most of the plans that are being cancelled).

Now, we could have just extended Medicare to everyone, and called it a day. Doctors wouldn't like not making as much money, and the other parasites would be eliminated completely...

But you guys were so intent that "those guys" get to keep making their profits, and things that would have prevented these problems like a Public Option or a Medicare Buy-In for those over 55 (who can't get decent insurance for love or money), and now you are weeping crocadile tears for the poor schlub who didn't realize how badly he was being ripped off?

Joe, it really is clear you don't know how this works, and that you're buying in to the standard propaganda because it fits nicely with your rage. I get that.

Your post is so replete with a lack of understanding that I don't have the energy.

And before you (once again) simplistically lump me in with "you guys", you may want to review what I would like to see, which is based on a decent understanding of health care costing, pricing, reimbursement and delivery, and not on rage & ignorance: Post 43, http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

You're very angry and you simply and clearly don't understand the terribly complex nature of the topic you're discussing. Not much I can do with that.

.

LMAO. Everybody is "very angry" if they don't agree with you Mac. You ever notice that?
And how is it that YOU are the only one with "understanding". But no solutions eh? Just what good is your supposed understanding if you can't solve any of the problems? Just curious, don't go off on how I must be so angry.

I'm not angry Mac, I have decent health coverage. My daughter with cervical cancer issues got health care through Obamacare. Yea Mac this is a terrible thing.

You don't have a good health insurance policy do you MAc?

I'll once again be happy to respond to your questions, even though we both know you won't return the courtesy.

"But no solutions, eh?" - You (once again) have failed to read my post. A basic outline of what I would like to see can be found here at post 43: http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

"... supposed understanding..." - While I have to constantly train on stuff like this for my profession, you don't need to believe any of it. But if you had even one half of one ounce of intellectual curiosity, you would check it out yourself, and you would find that I'm correct. I know you won't.

And, since I don't qualify for subsidies and I do have an individual policy, both my premiums and deductibles are going up significantly for 2014. You can choose to believe that or not.

Last time, Zeke. Either grow up and quit the games or I'll just put you on ignore and save the effort it takes to respond to your consistently intellectually dishonest posts. You're a liar and a coward, and I've had enough.

Thanks.

.

 

[Darkwind]

If these were junk or sub standard plans simple question why didn't Obama and the Democrats tell the public over and over and over they would be losing their junk/substandard plan and getting a better one in return instead of if you like your plan you can keep it period?

Probably because they had no idea that so many people had purchased junk plans in the first place. I have seen people at my doctor's office who have been turned away because the office staff knew that the plan they had would not cover the cost of services.

Now I know you are a liar. You are far too ignorant to waste time on.

Off to the ignore list for you.

 

[The Rabbi]

[

See to Joe anything that sticks it to people and gives government more control is a damn sight better.
Obamacare has raised medical costs, including insurance premiums, tremendously for the average person. It has caused more people to be uninsured than to be insured.
In all Obamacare has failed every promise that was made for it. Every single one.
If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it. Period.
Obamacare will not add one thin dime to the deficit
Obamacare will bend the cost curve down.
Every one of these statements was a lie. And the people saying it knew it was a lie.

Guy, my insurance costs the same next year as it does this year. And the same is the case for most of the 130 million people who get their insurance through their employers or unions.

It also costs the same for the 100 million who are already getting care through government programs.

So most "average" people, no change.

46 million people who weren't covered before are getting an improvement.

The people who are having a problem are about 5 million who bought cut-rate plans that didn't cover anything.

BUt keep screaming hysterically, like you guys did with Social Security and Medicare. ObamaCare will eventually become a third rail you don't dare touch.

You know union plans were exempt, right?
The mandate for employers has not kicked in yet, thanks to Obama's illegal action. That is the only reason many more people have not been kicked on to the exchanges.
You can dismiss 5M people if you want. You don't give a shit about people anyway.

 

[zeke]

Joe, it really is clear you don't know how this works, and that you're buying in to the standard propaganda because it fits nicely with your rage. I get that.

Your post is so replete with a lack of understanding that I don't have the energy.

And before you (once again) simplistically lump me in with "you guys", you may want to review what I would like to see, which is based on a decent understanding of health care costing, pricing, reimbursement and delivery, and not on rage & ignorance: Post 43, http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

You're very angry and you simply and clearly don't understand the terribly complex nature of the topic you're discussing. Not much I can do with that.

.

LMAO. Everybody is "very angry" if they don't agree with you Mac. You ever notice that?
And how is it that YOU are the only one with "understanding". But no solutions eh? Just what good is your supposed understanding if you can't solve any of the problems? Just curious, don't go off on how I must be so angry.

I'm not angry Mac, I have decent health coverage. My daughter with cervical cancer issues got health care through Obamacare. Yea Mac this is a terrible thing.

You don't have a good health insurance policy do you MAc?

I'll once again be happy to respond to your questions, even though we both know you won't return the courtesy.

"But no solutions, eh?" - You (once again) have failed to read my post. A basic outline of what I would like to see can be found here at post 43: http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

"... supposed understanding..." - While I have to constantly train on stuff like this for my profession, you don't need to believe any of it. But if you had even one half of one ounce of intellectual curiosity, you would check it out yourself, and you would find that I'm correct. I know you won't.

And, since I don't qualify for subsidies and I do have an individual policy, both my premiums and deductibles are going up significantly for 2014. You can choose to believe that or not.

Last time, Zeke. Either grow up and quit the games or I'll just put you on ignore and save the effort it takes to respond to your consistently intellectually dishonest posts. You're a liar and a coward, and I've had enough.

Thanks.

.

Fuck you Mac. Do the ignore thing. It's what I do with the nonsense you post. Unless I get to fuck with you like I just did. Carry on asshole.

 

[mudwhistle]

Guy, I've been hearing that shit from the "Oh my god, the Black guy stole Romney's Plan" crowd for the last four years. ObamaCare is going to eat your babies and shit. It's tiresome.

Do I think ObamaCare made too many comprimises in order to get passed? Yup.

Do I think it's needlessly bureaucratic? Absolutely.

Is it still a damn sight better than what we had? Yes, yes it is.

A damn sight better?

The name of the law should be changed to fit what it does.

It makes health care less affordable, so the name doesn't fit. That is what it does. That, contrary to what you claim, is what it's designed to do.

Actually, it insures more people than we had insured before.

In teh process, it eliminates plans that were garbage that insurance companies sold with a straight face.

We don't know anyone who it has insured. There are no guarantees.

Also, nearly 6 million people lost their coverage so it has taken away more coverage than it will ever give.

 

[The Rabbi]

More people have seen Elvis since his death than have signed up for Obamacare.

 

[Mac1958]

LMAO. Everybody is "very angry" if they don't agree with you Mac. You ever notice that?
And how is it that YOU are the only one with "understanding". But no solutions eh? Just what good is your supposed understanding if you can't solve any of the problems? Just curious, don't go off on how I must be so angry.

I'm not angry Mac, I have decent health coverage. My daughter with cervical cancer issues got health care through Obamacare. Yea Mac this is a terrible thing.

You don't have a good health insurance policy do you MAc?

I'll once again be happy to respond to your questions, even though we both know you won't return the courtesy.

"But no solutions, eh?" - You (once again) have failed to read my post. A basic outline of what I would like to see can be found here at post 43: http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

"... supposed understanding..." - While I have to constantly train on stuff like this for my profession, you don't need to believe any of it. But if you had even one half of one ounce of intellectual curiosity, you would check it out yourself, and you would find that I'm correct. I know you won't.

And, since I don't qualify for subsidies and I do have an individual policy, both my premiums and deductibles are going up significantly for 2014. You can choose to believe that or not.

Last time, Zeke. Either grow up and quit the games or I'll just put you on ignore and save the effort it takes to respond to your consistently intellectually dishonest posts. You're a liar and a coward, and I've had enough.

Thanks.

.

Fuck you Mac. Do the ignore thing. It's what I do with the nonsense you post. Unless I get to fuck with you like I just did. Carry on asshole.

Done.

Best wishes.

.

 

[JoeB131]

[
I'll once again be happy to respond to your questions, even though we both know you won't return the courtesy.

"But no solutions, eh?" - You (once again) have failed to read my post. A basic outline of what I would like to see can be found here at post 43: http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

"... supposed understanding..." - While I have to constantly train on stuff like this for my profession, you don't need to believe any of it. But if you had even one half of one ounce of intellectual curiosity, you would check it out yourself, and you would find that I'm correct. I know you won't.

And, since I don't qualify for subsidies and I do have an individual policy, both my premiums and deductibles are going up significantly for 2014. You can choose to believe that or not.

Last time, Zeke. Either grow up and quit the games or I'll just put you on ignore and save the effort it takes to respond to your consistently intellectually dishonest posts. You're a liar and a coward, and I've had enough.

Thanks.

.

Mac, Upton Sinclair once observed, "It's difficult to get a man to understand a problem if his paycheck depends on him not understanding it."

I did take the time to read Post #43, and it's just more of that "Market Will Provide" kind of thinking that the Market is this magic fairy that cures everything.

Having been on the receiving end of that kind of thinking, I'm a tad skeptical.

The reason why the system works at all is because the government ALREADY took responsibility for the people private insurance wouldn't touch, and private insurance itself only exists because of generous tax incentives and corporate welfare.

 

[JoeB131]

[

We don't know anyone who it has insured. There are no guarantees.

Also, nearly 6 million people lost their coverage so it has taken away more coverage than it will ever give.

Using an absolute like "ever" is misleading.

Fact is, the non-sick won't sign up until the last minute. This is exactly how it played out with RomneyCare, and how it will probably play out here.

 

[The Rabbi]

[
I'll once again be happy to respond to your questions, even though we both know you won't return the courtesy.

"But no solutions, eh?" - You (once again) have failed to read my post. A basic outline of what I would like to see can be found here at post 43: http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

"... supposed understanding..." - While I have to constantly train on stuff like this for my profession, you don't need to believe any of it. But if you had even one half of one ounce of intellectual curiosity, you would check it out yourself, and you would find that I'm correct. I know you won't.

And, since I don't qualify for subsidies and I do have an individual policy, both my premiums and deductibles are going up significantly for 2014. You can choose to believe that or not.

Last time, Zeke. Either grow up and quit the games or I'll just put you on ignore and save the effort it takes to respond to your consistently intellectually dishonest posts. You're a liar and a coward, and I've had enough.

Thanks.

.

Mac, Upton Sinclair once observed, "It's difficult to get a man to understand a problem if his paycheck depends on him not understanding it."

I did take the time to read Post #43, and it's just more of that "Market Will Provide" kind of thinking that the Market is this magic fairy that cures everything.

Having been on the receiving end of that kind of thinking, I'm a tad skeptical.

The reason why the system works at all is because the government ALREADY took responsibility for the people private insurance wouldn't touch, and private insurance itself only exists because of generous tax incentives and corporate welfare.

You dont understand the market system. Why is this surprising?
Private insurance exits because there is a need for sucha thing. It is screwedup because of tax incentives and gov't regulation.

 

[The Rabbi]

[

We don't know anyone who it has insured. There are no guarantees.

Also, nearly 6 million people lost their coverage so it has taken away more coverage than it will ever give.

Using an absolute like "ever" is misleading.

Fact is, the non-sick won't sign up until the last minute. This is exactly how it played out with RomneyCare, and how it will probably play out here.

If they don't need it, why will they sign up? It will be cheaper to pay the penalty and just use the ER for critical care.
Just like what happened under Romneycare.

 

[JoeB131]

[

You dont understand the market system. Why is this surprising?
Private insurance exits because there is a need for sucha thing. It is screwedup because of tax incentives and gov't regulation.

No, private insurance exists because back in the 1940's, government froze wages to keep people from job hopping when unemployment dropped to 0 and they had to employ just about anyone to keep war production running with 16 million men in uniform. So they developed this benefit to attract good help.

And since then, they've had to do all sorts of tricks to keep the system afloat, because in the long run, you can't insure people's health the way you insure their car or their house. There is a 100% chance you are going to die, eventually.

Without incentives, no one would be able to get affordable insurance who actually needed it, and people who didn't need it wouldn't buy it.

 

[zeke]

I'll once again be happy to respond to your questions, even though we both know you won't return the courtesy.

"But no solutions, eh?" - You (once again) have failed to read my post. A basic outline of what I would like to see can be found here at post 43: http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

"... supposed understanding..." - While I have to constantly train on stuff like this for my profession, you don't need to believe any of it. But if you had even one half of one ounce of intellectual curiosity, you would check it out yourself, and you would find that I'm correct. I know you won't.

And, since I don't qualify for subsidies and I do have an individual policy, both my premiums and deductibles are going up significantly for 2014. You can choose to believe that or not.

Last time, Zeke. Either grow up and quit the games or I'll just put you on ignore and save the effort it takes to respond to your consistently intellectually dishonest posts. You're a liar and a coward, and I've had enough.

Thanks.

.

Fuck you Mac. Do the ignore thing. It's what I do with the nonsense you post. Unless I get to fuck with you like I just did. Carry on asshole.

Done.

Best wishes.

.

Ima heartbroken I tell you. Heartbroken.

Mac here says he has all the answers. The problem is no one in the Republican party would listen to him either.

Insurance companies wrote the ACA. But Mac want to condemn the Democrats for putting the plan together. Even though insurance companies (those same companies that would "fix" these problems IF Obama care hadn't been passed. LMAO.) wrote the plan.

There is no solution to our fucked up health care coverage other than what Joe advocates all the time; single payer. Like most of the other industrialized countries have figured out how to provide. Like we should have had.

But really Mac, after calling me a liar and a coward and then throw in that "best wishes" bull shit. WTF is wrong with you? No balls? Hiding behind the "ignore" button. Why?

 

[JoeB131]

[

We don't know anyone who it has insured. There are no guarantees.

Also, nearly 6 million people lost their coverage so it has taken away more coverage than it will ever give.

Using an absolute like "ever" is misleading.

Fact is, the non-sick won't sign up until the last minute. This is exactly how it played out with RomneyCare, and how it will probably play out here.

If they don't need it, why will they sign up? It will be cheaper to pay the penalty and just use the ER for critical care.
Just like what happened under Romneycare.

RomneyCare was completely successful.

It was a pity Romney didn't run on it. He might have won.