When did Junk Plans become Junk Plans

[Amelia]

Just found out one difference between our pre-Obama and post-Obama healthcare.

Now hubby only sees the doctor 2 times a year for his diabetes labwork and feedback instead of 4. Which is probably okay. But it's a difference.

 

[Ame®icano]

I agree completely with you g5000.

Let's compare ACA with auto insurance.

You own a car, you think you're good driver and you chose to buy insurance with lets say $500 deductible on collision and $250 on comprehensive, $100k limit on medical expenses etc. and you pay lets say $100 a month.

Then government steps in and decide you policy is a junk, because your policy doesn't cover the motorcycle and boat. It doesn't matter you don't own neither one, you have to have it. Then they force your insurance company to include those in your policy with sales pitch that having everyone pay into pool will lower cost for everyone else including you. By the way, they also promise that if you like your current policy, you can keep it. And if you don't buy it, you'll pay anyways, thru penalties (remember, it's not a tax).

What happens next is, your insurance drops your policy, offers you new one that is government approved, at the cost of $180 a month. It cost more, but it offers more services you don't really need. Now, since you're paying for bike and boat insurance, you gonna go and buy bike for a kid you don't have and a boat for yourself. Government will claim they improved economy and created jobs.

 

[Listening]

My last post for the evening Obama never said if you like your plan you can keep unless it's a junk plan he never said you can keep any plan except a junk plan he said if you like your current plan and doctor you can keep them period. The term junk, garbage, and sub standard plan did not come into play until millions of people got cancellation notices and everybody started asking Obama about the thirty something times he said if you like your plan and doctor you can keep them period. Something else that has been forgotten here was it not HHS and Kathleen Sebelius who rewrote the rules that made it all but impossible for the people to keep those plans?

The White House set up an email for people to report to when they heard dissenters telling the truth about how you won't be able to keep your insurance. They made a public service announcement saying what liars people who contradicted the "if you like your insurance you can keep it" mantra. They spent tax payer dollars to harass and vilify people who told the truth.

I am skeptical.....

But if you have a link, I'd sure like to have it.

This would be akin to the SS Youth of Hitler's time.

Please...

I'd love to have a link to this e-mail address. Do you know if this has been reported to the MSM ?

 

[Amelia]

My last post for the evening Obama never said if you like your plan you can keep unless it's a junk plan he never said you can keep any plan except a junk plan he said if you like your current plan and doctor you can keep them period. The term junk, garbage, and sub standard plan did not come into play until millions of people got cancellation notices and everybody started asking Obama about the thirty something times he said if you like your plan and doctor you can keep them period. Something else that has been forgotten here was it not HHS and Kathleen Sebelius who rewrote the rules that made it all but impossible for the people to keep those plans?

The White House set up an email for people to report to when they heard dissenters telling the truth about how you won't be able to keep your insurance. They made a public service announcement saying what liars people who contradicted the "if you like your insurance you can keep it" mantra. They spent tax payer dollars to harass and vilify people who told the truth.

I am skeptical.....

But if you have a link, I'd sure like to have it.

This would be akin to the SS Youth of Hitler's time.

You don't remember that? It's not a new thing. Reminders of it have been posted recently. I'll try to find it again.

 

[Amelia]

The White House set up an email for people to report to when they heard dissenters telling the truth about how you won't be able to keep your insurance. They made a public service announcement saying what liars people who contradicted the "if you like your insurance you can keep it" mantra. They spent tax payer dollars to harass and vilify people who told the truth.

I am skeptical.....

But if you have a link, I'd sure like to have it.

This would be akin to the SS Youth of Hitler's time.

Please...

I'd love to have a link to this e-mail address. Do you know if this has been reported to the MSM ?

It's old news:

Facts Are Stubborn Things | The White House

....

For the record, the President has consistently said that if you like your insurance plan, your doctor, or both, you will be able to keep them. He has even proposed eight consumer protections relating specifically to the health insurance industry.

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].

....

 

[g5000]

I am skeptical.....

But if you have a link, I'd sure like to have it.

This would be akin to the SS Youth of Hitler's time.

Please...

I'd love to have a link to this e-mail address. Do you know if this has been reported to the MSM ?

It's old news:

Facts Are Stubborn Things | The White House

....

For the record, the President has consistently said that if you like your insurance plan, your doctor, or both, you will be able to keep them. He has even proposed eight consumer protections relating specifically to the health insurance industry.

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].

....

That does not accuse people of being liars for pointing out Obama's lie.

 

[g5000]

I agree completely with you g5000.

Let's compare ACA with auto insurance.

You own a car, you think you're good driver and you chose to buy insurance with lets say $500 deductible on collision and $250 on comprehensive, $100k limit on medical expenses etc. and you pay lets say $100 a month.

Then government steps in and decide you policy is a junk, because your policy doesn't cover the motorcycle and boat. It doesn't matter you don't own neither one, you have to have it. Then they force your insurance company to include those in your policy with sales pitch that having everyone pay into pool will lower cost for everyone else including you. By the way, they also promise that if you like your current policy, you can keep it. And if you don't buy it, you'll pay anyways, thru penalties (remember, it's not a tax).

What happens next is, your insurance drops your policy, offers you new one that is government approved, at the cost of $180 a month. It cost more, but it offers more services you don't really need. Now, since you're paying for bike and boat insurance, you gonna go and buy bike for a kid you don't have and a boat for yourself. Government will claim they improved economy and created jobs.

What's more, government stifles innovation.

Much whining is done over the fact the private sector makes profits. ObamaCare even has a provision for confiscating profits the government considers excessive! It is astonishing the number of incredible precedents that are set by this monstrous piece of legislation.

There seems to be a flawed premise behind this "profits are evil" thinking that since government does not make a profit, it would cost less to provide a service or product than a company which adds a margin of profit to the price of its service or products.

The history of centrally planned economies demonstrates the sheer folly of this bogus premise.

The innovation of the private sector leads to products or services being made more cheaply and with more features. So even after adding in the profit, the consumer still comes out ahead. The consumer receives a superior service at a lower price.

One of the downsides of the innovative private sector driven economy, though, is overkill. Especially in the health care industry. When an x-ray would probably suffice, we throw an MRI or PET scan at a problem. And this adds to the cost of health care.

Unfortunately, any attempt these days to introduce a little common sense to that downside leads to hysterical screams of "Death panels!"

 

[Amelia]

Please...

I'd love to have a link to this e-mail address. Do you know if this has been reported to the MSM ?

It's old news:

Facts Are Stubborn Things | The White House

....

For the record, the President has consistently said that if you like your insurance plan, your doctor, or both, you will be able to keep them. He has even proposed eight consumer protections relating specifically to the health insurance industry.

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].

....

That does not accuse people of being liars for pointing out Obama's lie.

Watch the video before the section I quoted. Linda Douglass's rebuttal to what she claims is deception and disinformation is something she claims we probably won't show -- which is Obama promising that we can keep our insurance and doctors and saying that "nobody is trying to change what works in the system." On behalf of the White House she accused dissenters of disinformation and deception and her trump card was to play Obama's lies for us again. And then after the video which so nicely highlighted Obama's lies is the email address where people could send reports when they hear something "fishy", i.e., something which contradicts Obama's lies.




And then there is what Sebelius and friends did to businesses who dabbled in uncomfortable truthtelling.

 

[oreo]

In all the debate over Obamadon'tcare, I don't recall much discussion about "Junk Plans". It was always about "you could keep your insurance if you like it".

Period.

Then our Affirmative Action Non-Hero gets has skinny ass caught in a wringer and all of sudden, these became junk plans.

I am sure there might have been a few statements about this prior to the BIG LIE being exposed, but I don't recall hearing it at all.

If the left can't produce 1000 clips of this, then they have to admit that this is nothing more than a scorched earth effort to divert from the fact that our incompetent president is also an incompetent liar.

ALL OF A SUDDEN THE LEFT BECOMES CONCERNED about our junk plans.

And Ed Shultz has the moxy and the dead brain cells to push this pile of horseshyt.

If you are from the left, don't bother posting about what the plans did and did not cover, that is just more smoke. It really does not matter if you think they are junk or not.

You were pretty quiet on the whole topic prior to the BIG LIE. That is what this is about. Negs to anyone who compares plans.

And maybe I am wrong about this. But I just don't recall seeing it.

All I heard was the may plan (good or bad) and doctor were safe from any issues because of Obamacare.

Let's see it.

They became junk when Obama told us they were JUNK plans, of course and only after Obama promised the American public that if they liked their plans they could keep them.

 

[Amelia]

In addition to the attacks coming from Sebelius and Senate Democrats here is vile Obama threatening people for looking out for their own interest in the face of his shameless lies:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/us/politics/18address.html

Published: October 17, 2009

WASHINGTON — President Obama mounted a frontal assault on the insurance industry on Saturday, accusing it of using “deceptive and dishonest ads” to derail his health care legislation and threatening to strip the industry of its longstanding exemption from federal antitrust laws.

In unusually harsh terms, Mr. Obama cast insurance companies as obstacles to change interested only in preserving their own “profits and bonuses” and willing to “bend the truth or break it” to stop his drive to remake the nation’s health care system. The president used his weekly radio and Internet address to challenge industry assertions that legislation will drive up premiums.

“It’s smoke and mirrors,” Mr. Obama said. “It’s bogus. And it’s all too familiar. Every time we get close to passing reform, the insurance companies produce these phony studies as a prescription and say, ‘Take one of these, and call us in a decade.’ Well, not this time.”

Rather than trying to curb costs and help patients, he said, the industry is busy “figuring out how to avoid covering people.”

“And they’re earning these profits and bonuses while enjoying a privileged exemption from our antitrust laws,” he said, “a matter that Congress is rightfully reviewing.”

The president’s attack underscores the sharp break between the White House and the insurance industry as the health care debate moves closer to a climax. When Mr. Obama took office, he and his advisers had hoped to keep insurers at the table to forge a consensus. But as the months passed, the strains grew — until this past week, when industry-financed studies attacking the Democratic plan signaled an open rupture.

....

Shameless, vile Obama and the rest of the Democrats who knew that if they told the truth they wouldn't be able to upend our insurance market "for our own good". They have turned me into a hater. Yes, I HATE these people for how shamelessly they flouted legislative tradition to push through their lies and how nasty they have been to so many Americans on so many levels for objecting to their lies. I HATE them.

 

[The Rabbi]

[

You dont understand the market system. Why is this surprising?
Private insurance exits because there is a need for sucha thing. It is screwedup because of tax incentives and gov't regulation.

No, private insurance exists because back in the 1940's, government froze wages to keep people from job hopping when unemployment dropped to 0 and they had to employ just about anyone to keep war production running with 16 million men in uniform. So they developed this benefit to attract good help.

And since then, they've had to do all sorts of tricks to keep the system afloat, because in the long run, you can't insure people's health the way you insure their car or their house. There is a 100% chance you are going to die, eventually.

Without incentives, no one would be able to get affordable insurance who actually needed it, and people who didn't need it wouldn't buy it.

I think you're the most ignorant poster on this site. Every post is filled with half truths and distortions. T his was a good example of it.
Private insurance existed before the war. What the war did was encourage companies to offer the insurance as a benefit, because it fell outside of wage controls. (Another example of what happens when gov't tries to control something). It was deductible to the company as an expense.
But private insurance on the individual market was unaffected by that. It is still not deductible as an expense the same way company plans are. That isn't "keeping it afloat." that is a distortion brought on by economic polciies.
In the long run all cars break down. In the long run houses fall down. You clearly do not understand health insurance or insurance in general. Why is this not surprising to me?

 

[oreo]

In addition to the attacks coming from Sebelius and Senate Democrats here is vile Obama threatening people for looking out for their own interest in the face of his shameless lies:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/us/politics/18address.html

Published: October 17, 2009

WASHINGTON — President Obama mounted a frontal assault on the insurance industry on Saturday, accusing it of using “deceptive and dishonest ads” to derail his health care legislation and threatening to strip the industry of its longstanding exemption from federal antitrust laws.

In unusually harsh terms, Mr. Obama cast insurance companies as obstacles to change interested only in preserving their own “profits and bonuses” and willing to “bend the truth or break it” to stop his drive to remake the nation’s health care system. The president used his weekly radio and Internet address to challenge industry assertions that legislation will drive up premiums.

“It’s smoke and mirrors,” Mr. Obama said. “It’s bogus. And it’s all too familiar. Every time we get close to passing reform, the insurance companies produce these phony studies as a prescription and say, ‘Take one of these, and call us in a decade.’ Well, not this time.”

Rather than trying to curb costs and help patients, he said, the industry is busy “figuring out how to avoid covering people.”

“And they’re earning these profits and bonuses while enjoying a privileged exemption from our antitrust laws,” he said, “a matter that Congress is rightfully reviewing.”

The president’s attack underscores the sharp break between the White House and the insurance industry as the health care debate moves closer to a climax. When Mr. Obama took office, he and his advisers had hoped to keep insurers at the table to forge a consensus. But as the months passed, the strains grew — until this past week, when industry-financed studies attacking the Democratic plan signaled an open rupture.

....

Shameless, vile Obama and the rest of the Democrats who knew that if they told the truth they wouldn't be able to upend our insurance market "for our own good". They have turned me into a hater. Yes, I HATE these people for how shamelessly they flouted legislative tradition to push through their lies and how nasty they have been to so many Americans on so many levels for objecting to their lies. I HATE them.

Well--this is very typical of Barack Obama. Find someone--anyone other than his administration to blame for the failures of his administration. I am surprised Bush's name has not been mentioned over the Obamacare disaster as yet--

yet.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

In all the debate over Obamadon'tcare, I don't recall much discussion about "Junk Plans". It was always about "you could keep your insurance if you like it".

Period.

Then our Affirmative Action Non-Hero gets has skinny ass caught in a wringer and all of sudden, these became junk plans.

I am sure there might have been a few statements about this prior to the BIG LIE being exposed, but I don't recall hearing it at all.

.

You don't?

Because the "underinsured" has been part of this discussion all along.

How Many Are Underinsured? Trends Among U.S. Adults, 2003 and 2007 - The Commonwealth Fund

The number of underinsured U.S. adults—that is, people who have health coverage that does not adequately protect them from high medical expenses—has risen dramatically, a Commonwealth Fund study finds. As of 2007, there were an estimated 25 million underinsured adults in the United States, up 60 percent from 2003.

Much of this growth comes from the ranks of the middle class. While low-income people remain vulnerable, middle-income families have been hit hardest. For adults with incomes above 200 percent of the federal poverty level (about $40,000 per year for a family), the underinsured rates nearly tripled since 2003.

Funny, that isn't what Obama said.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

.

Yes, there are shitty, "junk" policies out there. I've seen 'em, I've spoken with billing departments of doctors offices on behalf of my clients about them.

But they represent a very small portion of the policies that have been taken away. The rest were plans that were more personalized, working just fine, or didn't include stuff the gods of the ACA deem are "essential", like maternity coverage for a 50-year old guy.

One of two things is happening here: The apologists don't know this and/or don't care, but they're gonna defend this pig of a law for purely political reasons, or the apologists DO know this and are simply lying.

It really is that simple.

.

It strikes me that if these plans were so good, big insurance wouldn't have had a problem modifying them to comply.

I mean, you can whine about the 50 year old's maternity coverage all day, but really, if there is never a payout for that, what is the expense, exactly?

Fact is, simple solution. No more 8 figure salaries for Insurance CEO's and no dividends paid to Insurance Company stockholders until they create policies that comply.

Easy-peasy.

I will have to make a note to come back here and neg you again for making an argument so stupid that even Obama didn't try it. I really don't think they would let me get away with using the appropriate language necessary to deal with the level of stupidity that you just uttered.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0]Billy Madison - Ultimate Insult (Academic Decathlon)[Forum Weapon][How To Troll][Ignorance Is Bliss] - YouTube[/ame]

If there is anyone that is capable of dealing with the steaming pile of shit that calls itself JoeB please ask him to address something for the rest of us. Ask him to explain, in detail, how insurance companies are supposed to deal with the regulations that are deliberately designed to prevent insurance companies from using easy peasy methods to deal with new requirements under Obamacare when the regulations written by the Obama HHS state that modifying the plans to bring them into compliance requires that they cancel the non compliant policy and sell a new one.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Joe, this is all about the "8 figure salaries" for you, it's not about what I wrote. You're going to defend this horrific law no matter what it costs or damages, because you just want to get those guys.

.

The Horrific Part was what "those guys" did. Sold people shit insurance, and then claimed Acne was a pre-existing condition for cancer or that a liver transplant was "expiramental" and let a 17 year old girl die. And then they collected their 8 figure salaries and thought all was good, with 46 million uninsured and 25 million underinsured (most of the plans that are being cancelled).

Now, we could have just extended Medicare to everyone, and called it a day. Doctors wouldn't like not making as much money, and the other parasites would be eliminated completely...

But you guys were so intent that "those guys" get to keep making their profits, and things that would have prevented these problems like a Public Option or a Medicare Buy-In for those over 55 (who can't get decent insurance for love or money), and now you are weeping crocadile tears for the poor schlub who didn't realize how badly he was being ripped off?

Joe, it really is clear you don't know how this works, and that you're buying in to the standard propaganda because it fits nicely with your rage. I get that.

Your post is so replete with a lack of understanding that I don't have the energy.

And before you (once again) simplistically lump me in with "you guys", you may want to review what I would like to see, which is based on a decent understanding of health care costing, pricing, reimbursement and delivery, and not on rage & ignorance: Post 43, http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

You're very angry and you simply and clearly don't understand the terribly complex nature of the topic you're discussing. Not much I can do with that.

.

I know how you feel. The guy posts the same drivel every single time, even after he reads the facts that contradict his drivel. The saddest part is I know he reads the other stuff, it just doesn't matter.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Guy, I've been hearing that shit from the "Oh my god, the Black guy stole Romney's Plan" crowd for the last four years. ObamaCare is going to eat your babies and shit. It's tiresome.

Do I think ObamaCare made too many comprimises in order to get passed? Yup.

Do I think it's needlessly bureaucratic? Absolutely.

Is it still a damn sight better than what we had? Yes, yes it is.

A damn sight better?

The name of the law should be changed to fit what it does.

It makes health care less affordable, so the name doesn't fit. That is what it does. That, contrary to what you claim, is what it's designed to do.

Actually, it insures more people than we had insured before.

In teh process, it eliminates plans that were garbage that insurance companies sold with a straight face.

It does? Can you prove that with actual numbers,, not pie in the sky projections that assume that the law will get more popular over time?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

[

See to Joe anything that sticks it to people and gives government more control is a damn sight better.
Obamacare has raised medical costs, including insurance premiums, tremendously for the average person. It has caused more people to be uninsured than to be insured.
In all Obamacare has failed every promise that was made for it. Every single one.
If you like your healthcare plan, you can keep it. Period.
Obamacare will not add one thin dime to the deficit
Obamacare will bend the cost curve down.
Every one of these statements was a lie. And the people saying it knew it was a lie.

Guy, my insurance costs the same next year as it does this year. And the same is the case for most of the 130 million people who get their insurance through their employers or unions.

It also costs the same for the 100 million who are already getting care through government programs.

So most "average" people, no change.

46 million people who weren't covered before are getting an improvement.

The people who are having a problem are about 5 million who bought cut-rate plans that didn't cover anything.

BUt keep screaming hysterically, like you guys did with Social Security and Medicare. ObamaCare will eventually become a third rail you don't dare touch.

No it doesn't, and you will see that when the employer mandate, which was illegally delayed by Obama, kicks in. I hope you survive the brain aneurism that you end up with just so I can laugh at you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Using an absolute like "ever" is misleading.

Fact is, the non-sick won't sign up until the last minute. This is exactly how it played out with RomneyCare, and how it will probably play out here.

If they don't need it, why will they sign up? It will be cheaper to pay the penalty and just use the ER for critical care.
Just like what happened under Romneycare.

RomneyCare was completely successful.

It was a pity Romney didn't run on it. He might have won.

Successful at what?

By the way, he did run on it, why the fuck do you think he lost?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Please...

I'd love to have a link to this e-mail address. Do you know if this has been reported to the MSM ?

It's old news:

Facts Are Stubborn Things | The White House

....

For the record, the President has consistently said that if you like your insurance plan, your doctor, or both, you will be able to keep them. He has even proposed eight consumer protections relating specifically to the health insurance industry.

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].

....

That does not accuse people of being liars for pointing out Obama's lie.

No, it encourages you to report people who call him a lair to the White House, which is not the same thing.

Funny thing, I reported myself at least 100 times for calling Obama out on shit like this, I never heard anything from them for my efforts.

 

[Amelia]

Using an absolute like "ever" is misleading.

Fact is, the non-sick won't sign up until the last minute. This is exactly how it played out with RomneyCare, and how it will probably play out here.

If they don't need it, why will they sign up? It will be cheaper to pay the penalty and just use the ER for critical care.
Just like what happened under Romneycare.

RomneyCare was completely successful.

It was a pity Romney didn't run on it. He might have won.

No, Joe, it wasn't. You know better than that.