When did Junk Plans become Junk Plans

[g5000]

It's old news:

Facts Are Stubborn Things | The White House

That does not accuse people of being liars for pointing out Obama's lie.

No, it encourages you to report people who call him a lair to the White House, which is not the same thing.

No, it encourages you to report liars. "If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy".

 

[Amelia]

Please...

I'd love to have a link to this e-mail address. Do you know if this has been reported to the MSM ?

It's old news:

Facts Are Stubborn Things | The White House

....

For the record, the President has consistently said that if you like your insurance plan, your doctor, or both, you will be able to keep them. He has even proposed eight consumer protections relating specifically to the health insurance industry.

There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to [email protected].

....

That does not accuse people of being liars for pointing out Obama's lie.

It accused people of deception and disinformation if their message contradicted Obama's "you can keep your plan and doctor" message.

And it used taxpayer money to spread Obama's lies and to encourage people to report those who dared to contradict Obama's lies with "fishy" truth.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If they don't need it, why will they sign up? It will be cheaper to pay the penalty and just use the ER for critical care.
Just like what happened under Romneycare.

RomneyCare was completely successful.

It was a pity Romney didn't run on it. He might have won.

No, Joe, it wasn't. You know better than that.

C'mon now, it was great. People paid more, got less, and the federal government bailed the state out every year because of the rising costs. Just think, if it wasn't for Romneycare the deficit would be significantly less than it is.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That does not accuse people of being liars for pointing out Obama's lie.

No, it encourages you to report people who call him a lair to the White House, which is not the same thing.

No, it encourages you to report liars. "If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy".

Like one that says you won't be able to keep your plan, or your doctor?

 

[Mac1958]

.

There's no talking to the apologists. Present them with any fact you want, patiently walk them through the provider contracting, reimbursement and subsidy process from start to finish, show them what is already happening, try to educate them on fundamental health care economics and/or business economics, provide them with evidence that they could easily verify with little effort, and they just deny and spout off diversionary platitudes.

I tried, with respect and civility, to hell with it.

.

 

[JoeB131]

[

You dont understand the market system. Why is this surprising?
Private insurance exits because there is a need for sucha thing. It is screwedup because of tax incentives and gov't regulation.

No, private insurance exists because back in the 1940's, government froze wages to keep people from job hopping when unemployment dropped to 0 and they had to employ just about anyone to keep war production running with 16 million men in uniform. So they developed this benefit to attract good help.

And since then, they've had to do all sorts of tricks to keep the system afloat, because in the long run, you can't insure people's health the way you insure their car or their house. There is a 100% chance you are going to die, eventually.

Without incentives, no one would be able to get affordable insurance who actually needed it, and people who didn't need it wouldn't buy it.

Every time government gets involved in social engineering it backfires. You said it yourself. What makes you think it wont backfire this time?

The thing is, what they did in the 1940's DIDN'T backfire. It did exactly what it was designed to do, keep trained workers on those assembly lines making Sherman Tanks and B-17 bombers.

The problem of course, is when the rest of the world was developing universal coverage, we let the insurance industry call the shot on our system.

 

[JoeB131]

If they don't need it, why will they sign up? It will be cheaper to pay the penalty and just use the ER for critical care.
Just like what happened under Romneycare.

RomneyCare was completely successful.

It was a pity Romney didn't run on it. He might have won.

Successful at what?

By the way, he did run on it, why the fuck do you think he lost?

Maybe in your delusional, drug-free world he did.

In the real world he ran from RomneyCare faster than a sister-wife.

 

[JoeB131]

[

I know how you feel. The guy posts the same drivel every single time, even after he reads the facts that contradict his drivel. The saddest part is I know he reads the other stuff, it just doesn't matter.

No, it doesn't.

Because honestly, if Mitt ROmney had won in 2008 and had implemented the EXACT SAME PLAN, you whacks would be praising the shit out of it and you know it.

But man, the Negro does it, and you are all nuts.

 

[g5000]

No, it encourages you to report people who call him a lair to the White House, which is not the same thing.

No, it encourages you to report liars. "If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy".

Like one that says you won't be able to keep your plan, or your doctor?

Yes! Just like that!

 

[g5000]

If they don't need it, why will they sign up? It will be cheaper to pay the penalty and just use the ER for critical care.
Just like what happened under Romneycare.

RomneyCare was completely successful.

It was a pity Romney didn't run on it. He might have won.

Successful at what?

By the way, he did run on it, why the fuck do you think he lost?

Romeny ran against ObamaCare. That is why he lost. He deflected away from RomneyCare as much as he could.

Romney made the election all about ObamaCare, and so did Obama.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Joe, this is all about the "8 figure salaries" for you, it's not about what I wrote. You're going to defend this horrific law no matter what it costs or damages, because you just want to get those guys.

.

The Horrific Part was what "those guys" did. Sold people shit insurance, and then claimed Acne was a pre-existing condition for cancer or that a liver transplant was "expiramental" and let a 17 year old girl die. And then they collected their 8 figure salaries and thought all was good, with 46 million uninsured and 25 million underinsured (most of the plans that are being cancelled).

Now, we could have just extended Medicare to everyone, and called it a day. Doctors wouldn't like not making as much money, and the other parasites would be eliminated completely...

But you guys were so intent that "those guys" get to keep making their profits, and things that would have prevented these problems like a Public Option or a Medicare Buy-In for those over 55 (who can't get decent insurance for love or money), and now you are weeping crocadile tears for the poor schlub who didn't realize how badly he was being ripped off?

Joe, it really is clear you don't know how this works, and that you're buying in to the standard propaganda because it fits nicely with your rage. I get that.

Your post is so replete with a lack of understanding that I don't have the energy.

And before you (once again) simplistically lump me in with "you guys", you may want to review what I would like to see, which is based on a decent understanding of health care costing, pricing, reimbursement and delivery, and not on rage & ignorance: Post 43, http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...y-politics-and-unintended-consequences-3.html

You're very angry and you simply and clearly don't understand the terribly complex nature of the topic you're discussing. Not much I can do with that.

.

It's not that he doesn't KNOW how it works. Joey is UNINTERESTED in knowing how it works. He's perfectly happy to destroy people's health plans as long as he can stick it to a few of the "eeeeeeeeeeeevil rich" in the process. I'm not sure if Joey is batshit crazy or pure evil.

 

[Listening]

[

I know how you feel. The guy posts the same drivel every single time, even after he reads the facts that contradict his drivel. The saddest part is I know he reads the other stuff, it just doesn't matter.

No, it doesn't.

Because honestly, if Mitt ROmney had won in 2008 and had implemented the EXACT SAME PLAN, you whacks would be praising the shit out of it and you know it.

But man, the Negro does it, and you are all nuts.

No, we'd be screaming for his impeachment....and promising to make him a one termer.

How the hell do you know what we'd do. He lost conservatives because of Romneycare.....which was stupid because it is within the perview of a state to do such a thing.

Quit with the Race Baiting bullshyt.

If Obama started actiling like a Republican, killed Obamacare, reduced spending, reformed entitlements, let GM go under, stopped with the stupid Foreign Policy....etc etc.

I'd try to get him a third term.

The race hard is nothing more than an enema that shows what you guys are really made of.

 

[g5000]

Obama is anti-choice.

The Democrats have taken away your ability to choose. This is not between you and your doctor any more. The government is not going to allow you to make your own health care decisions. Your right to privacy has been taken from you.

 

[JoeB131]

[

It's not that he doesn't KNOW how it works. Joey is UNINTERESTED in knowing how it works. He's perfectly happy to destroy people's health plans as long as he can stick it to a few of the "eeeeeeeeeeeevil rich" in the process. I'm not sure if Joey is batshit crazy or pure evil.

Once more.

Every other industrialized country has either Single Payer or Universal Coverage.

They spend less and get vastly better results. Maybe a rich person has to share a hospital room with a poor one.

So when I hear a guy like Mac who is part of the current system tell me how well the system works, I just have to laugh. The system doesn't work. The election of 2012 was between two guys who tried to fix it in their own ways.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I want to know when any plan became anything better than a junk plan. All insurance is junk. You pay the insurance company, they pay the doctor. They're not paying the doctor out of the kindness of their heart. They're in it for profit. That means that, in the long run, you're always paying more than they're paying the doctor. Get rid of Obamacare, and just ban insurance. That way the market can deal with costs the way that markets are meant to deal with them. If the services are too expensive for people to afford, the providers will have to adjust their prices on their own accord if they want to stay in business.

I get your point and I believe the private sector and free market system runs better without government calling the shots.

Health insurance, like auto insurance, was intended to help people in the event of a catastrophic accident or illness. It was government tying it to people's jobs and interfering with what companies had to provide that messed things up. Government wouldn't allow them to compete across state lines and the lack of competition and government control increased prices. Health care suppliers and big pharms also learned to take advantage of insurers by raising their prices. The insurance companies, along with government regulations kept a fountain of money flowing and everyone was ready to grab what they could. Medicare fraud was a huge problem for the last 20 years.

My brother had a lengthy hospital stay due to a serious illness. The final bill was well over 1 million. The amount he was responsible for was around $10,000. Not bad. Without insurance, he would never have been able to pay. The money insurance paid for his hospital stay was waaaay more than he ever paid in.

When government insists that insurance pay for every doctor visit and every pill we take, the costs go up. It would be insane to expect auto insurance to pay for oil changes and other minor things. If the government forced auto insurance companies to follow the same rules they set for health insurers, no one would be able to afford it.

Insurance was a brilliant idea. You make small payments, they invest it along with other payments and make money. Then they are prepared to make a large payout in the event of a serious illness or injury. The amount people paid in would be a small fraction of what the insurance company would pay out.

Leave it to government to get involved and decide that employers must provide it and that insurance must cover damn near everything. Between increased obligations for the insurance companies and no competition, it is any wonder that costs went up?

Yes, they want to make money. It would be downright stupid to start a business that was designed to lose money. It was government run insurance, like Medicare, that caused hikes in medical care and insurance costs because they only paid a small fraction of the bill, leaving other insurance companies to pick up the slack. Hospitals and doctors do need to stay in business, so the cost gets passed on.

Government has a tendency to take a good thing and turn it into a disaster by making volumes of regulations in an effort to micromanage the country.

BINGO. And the free market solution would be to decouple Service Contracts (paying for routine stuff) from Castrophic Care Insurance (real insurance).

Spot on! All I want is catastrophic care insurance...but no, if it's not a gold-plated plan, it is not permitted!

 

[JoeB131]

[

No, we'd be screaming for his impeachment....and promising to make him a one termer.

How the hell do you know what we'd do. He lost conservatives because of Romneycare.....which was stupid because it is within the perview of a state to do such a thing.

Quit with the Race Baiting bullshyt.

If Obama started actiling like a Republican, killed Obamacare, reduced spending, reformed entitlements, let GM go under, stopped with the stupid Foreign Policy....etc etc.

I'd try to get him a third term.

The race hard is nothing more than an enema that shows what you guys are really made of.

Guy, I know you are a Mormon and therefore, likely to believe just about anything...

But Romney did not "lose" conservatives.

Romney got 82% of the self-described "conservative" vote. That is 4% more of it than McCain got and only 2% less than George W. Bush got in 2004.

If Obama started actiling like a Republican, killed Obamacare, reduced spending, reformed entitlements, let GM go under, stopped with the stupid Foreign Policy....etc etc.

So if he were the same kind of mean-spirited douchebag you are, you'd totally vote for him.

Got it.

No one else would, though.

 

[Mac1958]

[

It's not that he doesn't KNOW how it works. Joey is UNINTERESTED in knowing how it works. He's perfectly happy to destroy people's health plans as long as he can stick it to a few of the "eeeeeeeeeeeevil rich" in the process. I'm not sure if Joey is batshit crazy or pure evil.

Once more.

Every other industrialized country has either Single Payer or Universal Coverage.

They spend less and get vastly better results. Maybe a rich person has to share a hospital room with a poor one.

So when I hear a guy like Mac who is part of the current system tell me how well the system works, I just have to laugh. The system doesn't work. The election of 2012 was between two guys who tried to fix it in their own ways.

Oh, the straw men...

I've never said "how well the system works". I think -- as you well know -- that we can make significant but manageable changes that would give us one health care system instead of six. And now your end of the spectrum is forced to defend this ridiculous plan. That's not my fault.

Please don't drag me into conversations by knowingly misrepresenting my opinion. There's more than enough intellectual dishonesty here already.

.

 

[mudwhistle]

[

No, we'd be screaming for his impeachment....and promising to make him a one termer.

How the hell do you know what we'd do. He lost conservatives because of Romneycare.....which was stupid because it is within the perview of a state to do such a thing.

Quit with the Race Baiting bullshyt.

If Obama started actiling like a Republican, killed Obamacare, reduced spending, reformed entitlements, let GM go under, stopped with the stupid Foreign Policy....etc etc.

I'd try to get him a third term.

The race hard is nothing more than an enema that shows what you guys are really made of.

Guy, I know you are a Mormon and therefore, likely to believe just about anything...

But Romney did not "lose" conservatives.

Romney got 82% of the self-described "conservative" vote. That is 4% more of it than McCain got and only 2% less than George W. Bush got in 2004.

If Obama started actiling like a Republican, killed Obamacare, reduced spending, reformed entitlements, let GM go under, stopped with the stupid Foreign Policy....etc etc.

So if he were the same kind of mean-spirited douchebag you are, you'd totally vote for him.

Got it.

No one else would, though.

He's already a mean-spirited douchebag.......I still think he's not worth voting for.

 

[B. Kidd]

We know what it is. It's what Obama never mentioned until he got his ass caught in the BIG LIE.

If you know what a junk plan is then you know that the plan is pretty much not worth the paper it is printed on. Junk plans are a scam and are NOT intended to provide insurance. They are intended to make money for the insurance company by selling a worthless plan to gullible idiots. The truth of the matter is that it is probably better NOT to have a junk insurance plan. A junk plan gives people a false sense of security. They think they are covered for serious problems but the truth of the matter is that they are not. For example, a junk plan may offer $600 per day for hospital care for a week. It sounds wonderful but the problem is the average cost for one night in the hospital is around $1800 per day. That means that every day they spend in the hospital they will have to pay $1200 out of their pocket. At the end of the week it becomes $1800 out of pocket. It does not take long to build up a huge debt with those types of charges.
The main reason for filing for personal bankrupcy in this country is for medical reasons. That number is around 2,000,000 a year. It would be my guess many of those had the junk policies you are defending.

Junk Plans?? All Plans are overseen and regulated by each state. You are being untruthful and lying when you say you've seen people being turned away by staff because they already know that they don't/won't pay. You're an Idiot that knows absolutely nothing about how a medical office works ~ Sheeeesh...I don't have time to go over all of your Misconceptions, misrepresentation and outright lies.
The patient is not responsible for $1200. they are usually responsible for 20-30% of the $600 that was agreed upon...The group plan hpo/ppo has already set a limit as to what it will pay, much like obamacare. The Ins co & provider have already set the terms. It's called a Contract!! Those so called junk plans paid or they would be put out of business by the STATE Insurance commission. The difference is obamacare is costing a whole lot more and paying a whole lot less. If there is a so called "Junk Plan" it most certainly is Obamacare!!!

A Big Difference between romneycare & obamacare is that if anyone chose not to participant they had the choice to move to another state!!! It doesn't hide and lie about what it is. Don't like it Move. We Could have easily bought nice "Junk Plans" for all the uninsured for many years just for the price of a fucked up website! Think about that!!

Great post!
Maybe a class-action suit should be brought against State Insurance Commissions' for allowing insurance companies to previously sell insurance that is now considered 'junk'.

 

[mudwhistle]

If you know what a junk plan is then you know that the plan is pretty much not worth the paper it is printed on. Junk plans are a scam and are NOT intended to provide insurance. They are intended to make money for the insurance company by selling a worthless plan to gullible idiots. The truth of the matter is that it is probably better NOT to have a junk insurance plan. A junk plan gives people a false sense of security. They think they are covered for serious problems but the truth of the matter is that they are not. For example, a junk plan may offer $600 per day for hospital care for a week. It sounds wonderful but the problem is the average cost for one night in the hospital is around $1800 per day. That means that every day they spend in the hospital they will have to pay $1200 out of their pocket. At the end of the week it becomes $1800 out of pocket. It does not take long to build up a huge debt with those types of charges.
The main reason for filing for personal bankrupcy in this country is for medical reasons. That number is around 2,000,000 a year. It would be my guess many of those had the junk policies you are defending.

Junk Plans?? All Plans are overseen and regulated by each state. You are being untruthful and lying when you say you've seen people being turned away by staff because they already know that they don't/won't pay. You're an Idiot that knows absolutely nothing about how a medical office works ~ Sheeeesh...I don't have time to go over all of your Misconceptions, misrepresentation and outright lies.
The patient is not responsible for $1200. they are usually responsible for 20-30% of the $600 that was agreed upon...The group plan hpo/ppo has already set a limit as to what it will pay, much like obamacare. The Ins co & provider have already set the terms. It's called a Contract!! Those so called junk plans paid or they would be put out of business by the STATE Insurance commission. The difference is obamacare is costing a whole lot more and paying a whole lot less. If there is a so called "Junk Plan" it most certainly is Obamacare!!!

A Big Difference between romneycare & obamacare is that if anyone chose not to participant they had the choice to move to another state!!! It doesn't hide and lie about what it is. Don't like it Move. We Could have easily bought nice "Junk Plans" for all the uninsured for many years just for the price of a fucked up website! Think about that!!

Great post!
Maybe a class-action suit should be brought against State Insurance Commissions' for allowing insurance companies to previously sell insurance that is now considered 'junk'.

Well, the only problem is who decides what is junk?

Can't be Obama himself. Has to be somebody non-biased.