When has a union created a job?

[Mr Natural]

No? When costs exceed revenue the result is loss. No business except government can sustain loss indefinitely. Since labor is a major component of any business labor costs largely will dictate whether the business can run at a profit or loss. When regulations add gratuitous costs then it reduces profits. So you are completely wrong. What a shock.

Did you read my last post on the subject? Outsourcing saves a company NINETY PERCENT or more of its labor costs. Any other proposed explanation for outsourcing is trivial and a diversion from the real reason.

When outsourced labor costs one-tenth as much as NON-UNION labor in the U.S., the difference between union pay and non-union pay is unimportant.

No regulatory cost ever has or ever will come anywhere near equaling ninety percent of a company's labor costs.

If all American unions were to disappear tomorrow, and all business regulations and corporate taxes were to be repealed, the savings from that would still not come anywhere near offsetting the increased cost of labor from relocating here, and no outsourced jobs would come home.

question...

you seem to know a lot on this topic...

So tell me.....percentage wise....how many jobs have we lost to employees overseas?

10%? 20%.....1%?

Not so much the percentage of jobs lost but the types.

 

[Jarhead]

So tell me.....percentage wise....how many jobs have we lost to employees overseas?

Depends on how you define "lost." I see the failure to unionize the service industries that have replaced manufacturing as our main employer as a bigger problem than the loss of manufacturing jobs themselves.

Anyway -- if you mean "lost" as in "this job used to be done here and now it's done somewhere else," the answer is around ten percent of the total work force. If you mean "lost" as in "this job is gone and the guy who did it is still unemployed, nothing has replaced it," the answer is hardly any. It's been a loss of quality rather than quantity, and that has happened almost entirely because the lost manufacturing jobs were unionized and the new service jobs have not been.

Manufacturing jobs used to pay shit, too. If service industries were unionized, they would pay better, just as happened in manufacturing. And most service jobs can't be outsourced (which is pretty much why they haven't been already).

First of all.....service jobs are very much apt to be outsourced.

When was the last time you called customer service of any company and got someone on mainland USA?

As for manufacturing jobs.....many of those jobs have been replaced by technology...and to blame the manufacturer for that is not fair.....unless, of course, you personally refuse to capitalize on technology....do you still ride a horse and not drive a car? Do you use an ice box and not a refrigerator? Do you hang your clothes outside and not use a drier?

SO should a manufacturer NOT uses CNC lathes as opposed to manual lathes? Should he count on the preciosion of a human over the precision of a computer?

Finally.....I am not doubting that 10% figure if you say it is fact as I have yet to find you as one who will lie to make a point.....but is that fact? Say yes, and I will believe it....but is that your assumed number or is it a fact?

 

[Jarhead]

Did you read my last post on the subject? Outsourcing saves a company NINETY PERCENT or more of its labor costs. Any other proposed explanation for outsourcing is trivial and a diversion from the real reason.

When outsourced labor costs one-tenth as much as NON-UNION labor in the U.S., the difference between union pay and non-union pay is unimportant.

No regulatory cost ever has or ever will come anywhere near equaling ninety percent of a company's labor costs.

If all American unions were to disappear tomorrow, and all business regulations and corporate taxes were to be repealed, the savings from that would still not come anywhere near offsetting the increased cost of labor from relocating here, and no outsourced jobs would come home.

question...

you seem to know a lot on this topic...

So tell me.....percentage wise....how many jobs have we lost to employees overseas?

10%? 20%.....1%?

Not so much the percentage of jobs lost but the types.

taht is a valid deabte but not part of this debate.

We are talking about unionizing serviuce jobs so they are not ourtsourced...so my question is how much of an affect does it truly have on the unemployment numbers....

And then we must ask "will the increase in the cost of services warrant the small increase in employment"

 

[Mr. Shaman]

When has a union created a job?

....And....

WHERE IS SNOOKI PALIN??!!!

 

[Dragon]

First of all.....service jobs are very much apt to be outsourced.

When was the last time you called customer service of any company and got someone on mainland USA?

There are a few exceptions, but no, for the most part service jobs can't be outsourced. The same is true of construction work. Anything that must be done on site, or requires a native understanding of American language and culture, must employ Americans. Or at least immigrants. It can't be done overseas.

As for manufacturing jobs.....many of those jobs have been replaced by technology...and to blame the manufacturer for that is not fair

I don't believe I've even discussed "blame" for any of this.

Finally.....I am not doubting that 10% figure if you say it is fact as I have yet to find you as one who will lie to make a point.....but is that fact? Say yes, and I will believe it....but is that your assumed number or is it a fact?

It's an approximate fact, but as I tried to make clear, not a very important one. We have lost manufacturing jobs; we have not lost jobs. The problem is simply that the new jobs have less bargaining power than the old ones did, because they are non-union.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Enlighten me, when the Unions stand up and demand what do you think those companies are going to do??

The day of demand and work stoppage left when the manufacturing sector left. That's exactly why the Unions are entrenched in government. It's the only way they can get dues and stay in existence. Raping the taxpayers isn't the same as the Union that fought for worker's rights.

Those Unions have gone by the wayside in favor of payoffs and big money. The Unions today don't care about workers, they care about their bottom line just like the big business you loathe. They are the epitome of Crony Capitalism.

You know......when speaking about the economy, JFK once said "a rising tide lifts all boats"

Conservatives have found a way to ensure that that rising tide only lifts the yachts. One of those ways is to beat down the unions, the right of the workers to stand up and demand that piece of the pie. The workers rights have steadily eroded. Little or no healthcare, no pensions, longer hours, no job security, salaries lagging rising cost of living

And who is the big boogeyman who gets the blame? The unions

Meanwhile, top management grabs an ever larger slice of the pie while they tell workers about hard economic times and how they have to work harder for less benefit

Got a question of logic......

Seeing as the majority of conservatives are not uber wealthy....and likewise, seeing as tyhe amount of uber wealthy makes up only 1 % of the electorate.....and seeing as the "wealthy" make up only 5% opf the elctorate.....

What makes you think that the GOP and conservaitves want to do as you say? What is their driving force? To make only 1% happy?

Doesn't make and difference what they want to do...it's what they're doing. When Geroge W. Bush cut taxes twice and began to borrow from Chinese banks to cover the shortfall...which still didn't cover it he proved what the Republicans are voting for.

In the last 15 years the wealthy have quadrupled their wealth and average Americans have lost buying power when adjusted for inflation. That's a fact.

 

[Jarhead]

You know......when speaking about the economy, JFK once said "a rising tide lifts all boats"

Conservatives have found a way to ensure that that rising tide only lifts the yachts. One of those ways is to beat down the unions, the right of the workers to stand up and demand that piece of the pie. The workers rights have steadily eroded. Little or no healthcare, no pensions, longer hours, no job security, salaries lagging rising cost of living

And who is the big boogeyman who gets the blame? The unions

Meanwhile, top management grabs an ever larger slice of the pie while they tell workers about hard economic times and how they have to work harder for less benefit

Got a question of logic......

Seeing as the majority of conservatives are not uber wealthy....and likewise, seeing as tyhe amount of uber wealthy makes up only 1 % of the electorate.....and seeing as the "wealthy" make up only 5% opf the elctorate.....

What makes you think that the GOP and conservaitves want to do as you say? What is their driving force? To make only 1% happy?

Doesn't make and difference what they want to do...it's what they're doing. When Geroge W. Bush cut taxes twice and began to borrow from Chinese banks to cover the shortfall...which still didn't cover it he proved what the Republicans are voting for.

In the last 15 years the wealthy have quadrupled their wealth and average Americans have lost buying power when adjusted for inflation. That's a fact.

You aremaking absolutely no sense whatseover.
You are simply regurgitating talking points...and you completely avoided the logic of my question.
You see...what you have done is taken the spin and repeated it.
That makes you a puppet of the democratic party.
You see...they know the truth....and they know the truth is hard to refute...so they need to spin the truth...and know people like you wopuld be naive enough to repeat it.

So to avoid the spin, I presented a basic question of logic.

And your response?

"Doesnt make a difference what they want to do"

I mean....really?
Thats the best ya got?

 

[rightwinger]

Enlighten me, when the Unions stand up and demand what do you think those companies are going to do??

The day of demand and work stoppage left when the manufacturing sector left. That's exactly why the Unions are entrenched in government. It's the only way they can get dues and stay in existence. Raping the taxpayers isn't the same as the Union that fought for worker's rights.

Those Unions have gone by the wayside in favor of payoffs and big money. The Unions today don't care about workers, they care about their bottom line just like the big business you loathe. They are the epitome of Crony Capitalism.

You know......when speaking about the economy, JFK once said "a rising tide lifts all boats"

Conservatives have found a way to ensure that that rising tide only lifts the yachts. One of those ways is to beat down the unions, the right of the workers to stand up and demand that piece of the pie. The workers rights have steadily eroded. Little or no healthcare, no pensions, longer hours, no job security, salaries lagging rising cost of living

And who is the big boogeyman who gets the blame? The unions

Meanwhile, top management grabs an ever larger slice of the pie while they tell workers about hard economic times and how they have to work harder for less benefit

Got a question of logic......

Seeing as the majority of conservatives are not uber wealthy....and likewise, seeing as tyhe amount of uber wealthy makes up only 1 % of the electorate.....and seeing as the "wealthy" make up only 5% opf the elctorate.....

What makes you think that the GOP and conservaitves want to do as you say? What is their driving force? To make only 1% happy?

In other words...you are spinning the truth about conservaitves and the motives of conservatives.

The question is why. Is it that you beleive debating the truth without your spin will result in your losing the debate?

You know? You got me there

I have never understood the logic of why so many conservatives vote against their own best interests. Best I can figure out is twofold.

First, I think they actually buy into the idea that if they make things easy on the wealthy that the trickle down stuff will actually kick in

Second, I think they have become victims of misdirection. Rather than look at the wealthy and questioning why they seem to be accumulating more and more wealth, they have turned on those who are less well off then themselves and blamed them for everything that is wrong with this country

 

[Jarhead]

First of all.....service jobs are very much apt to be outsourced.

When was the last time you called customer service of any company and got someone on mainland USA?

There are a few exceptions, but no, for the most part service jobs can't be outsourced. The same is true of construction work. Anything that must be done on site, or requires a native understanding of American language and culture, must employ Americans. Or at least immigrants. It can't be done overseas.

As for manufacturing jobs.....many of those jobs have been replaced by technology...and to blame the manufacturer for that is not fair

I don't believe I've even discussed "blame" for any of this.

Finally.....I am not doubting that 10% figure if you say it is fact as I have yet to find you as one who will lie to make a point.....but is that fact? Say yes, and I will believe it....but is that your assumed number or is it a fact?

It's an approximate fact, but as I tried to make clear, not a very important one. We have lost manufacturing jobs; we have not lost jobs. The problem is simply that the new jobs have less bargaining power than the old ones did, because they are non-union.

ones work ethic, loyalty, dedication and enthusiasm have proven to be the best "bargaining" tool...and that is coming from an executive recruiter.

If you need the power of numbers to bargain, then something is wrong with you (not meaning YOU in particular)

 

[Dragon]

ones work ethic, loyalty, dedication and enthusiasm have proven to be the best "bargaining" tool...and that is coming from an executive recruiter.

If you need the power of numbers to bargain, then something is wrong with you (not meaning YOU in particular)

I'm sorry, but history is simply against this line of reasoning 100%. What you're saying is that employers can be trusted to be fair. But there's no reason to believe this. Employers can be trusted only to pursue their own self-interest as they understand it, and since it's in their interest to get everything they need to buy, including labor, at the best (i.e., lowest) price they can talk someone into accepting, their interests are directly opposed to those of labor.

An individual worker is in a poor bargaining position, because he needs a job more than the employer needs an employee. While it's true that superior work ethic, loyalty, dedication, and enthusiasm can put one in a better bargaining position relative to someone else who does not have these qualities, you are still not bargaining as an equal. An employer doesn't need any ONE employee as much as the employee needs a job, but he does need ALL of his employees just as much as they, collectively, need jobs. The only way that workers can bargain with employers as equals is if they bargain collectively, not individually. And that requires a union.

 

[Jarhead]

You know......when speaking about the economy, JFK once said "a rising tide lifts all boats"

Conservatives have found a way to ensure that that rising tide only lifts the yachts. One of those ways is to beat down the unions, the right of the workers to stand up and demand that piece of the pie. The workers rights have steadily eroded. Little or no healthcare, no pensions, longer hours, no job security, salaries lagging rising cost of living

And who is the big boogeyman who gets the blame? The unions

Meanwhile, top management grabs an ever larger slice of the pie while they tell workers about hard economic times and how they have to work harder for less benefit

Got a question of logic......

Seeing as the majority of conservatives are not uber wealthy....and likewise, seeing as tyhe amount of uber wealthy makes up only 1 % of the electorate.....and seeing as the "wealthy" make up only 5% opf the elctorate.....

What makes you think that the GOP and conservaitves want to do as you say? What is their driving force? To make only 1% happy?

In other words...you are spinning the truth about conservaitves and the motives of conservatives.

The question is why. Is it that you beleive debating the truth without your spin will result in your losing the debate?

You know? You got me there

I have never understood the logic of why so many conservatives vote against their own best interests. Best I can figure out is twofold.

First, I think they actually buy into the idea that if they make things easy on the wealthy that the trickle down stuff will actually kick in

Second, I think they have become victims of misdirection. Rather than look at the wealthy and questioning why they seem to be accumulating more and more wealth, they have turned on those who are less well off then themselves and blamed them for everything that is wrong with this country

or....maybe....

Just maybe.....

They believe the GOP is correct with their sentiments just as others believe the democratic party is correct with their semtiments.

You see.....both parties spin the intentions and motivations of the opposing party...

you know....the GOP hate the poor and want to only help the rich

and

The DEMs want to enslave their voter base

But guess what.

Most of us do our won thinking and dont fall for the spin and simply see it as a difference in ideology.

So as I see it...

The GOP believ in trickle down..it makes economic sense...the ideology is to protect the business owners and allow them to employ the working class....with the goal to ensure the working class have jobs...It is not an issue of protecting the rich...it is an issue of protecting the business owners...and yes, the ruich are usually business owners.....but the interntion is to ensure work for the workingt class....

And...

The democrats believe in trickle up. They do not want to hurt the business owners, but they need to ensure greed doewsnt have an affect on the working class. They dont wish to enslave their voter base...they simply want certain programs available to them so they can survivie during the most difficult times

You see...both parties hgave reorted to spin and it is killing all fair and balanced debate.

And WE are the losers.

 

[Jarhead]

ones work ethic, loyalty, dedication and enthusiasm have proven to be the best "bargaining" tool...and that is coming from an executive recruiter.

If you need the power of numbers to bargain, then something is wrong with you (not meaning YOU in particular)

I'm sorry, but history is simply against this line of reasoning 100%. What you're saying is that employers can be trusted to be fair. But there's no reason to believe this. Employers can be trusted only to pursue their own self-interest as they understand it, and since it's in their interest to get everything they need to buy, including labor, at the best (i.e., lowest) price they can talk someone into accepting, their interests are directly opposed to those of labor.

An individual worker is in a poor bargaining position, because he needs a job more than the employer needs an employee. While it's true that superior work ethic, loyalty, dedication, and enthusiasm can put one in a better bargaining position relative to someone else who does not have these qualities, you are still not bargaining as an equal. An employer doesn't need any ONE employee as much as the employee needs a job, but he does need ALL of his employees just as much as they, collectively, need jobs. The only way that workers can bargain with employers as equals is if they bargain collectively, not individually. And that requires a union.

you aree ignoring one item.

Greed.

You see greed as a reason why an employer would screw over a dedicated, loyal passionate employee..

But you are worng.

Greed is the reason he would want to keep him. He wants to capitalize on a top employee..and not let his competition capitalize on him.

And how would he keep him?

Higher salary and bonuses.

And before you say I am 100% wrong....do yourself a favor...debate like a man and realize you are not always 100% correct.

 

[The Rabbi]

No? When costs exceed revenue the result is loss. No business except government can sustain loss indefinitely. Since labor is a major component of any business labor costs largely will dictate whether the business can run at a profit or loss. When regulations add gratuitous costs then it reduces profits. So you are completely wrong. What a shock.

Did you read my last post on the subject? Outsourcing saves a company NINETY PERCENT or more of its labor costs. Any other proposed explanation for outsourcing is trivial and a diversion from the real reason.

When outsourced labor costs one-tenth as much as NON-UNION labor in the U.S., the difference between union pay and non-union pay is unimportant.

No regulatory cost ever has or ever will come anywhere near equaling ninety percent of a company's labor costs.

If all American unions were to disappear tomorrow, and all business regulations and corporate taxes were to be repealed, the savings from that would still not come anywhere near offsetting the increased cost of labor from relocating here, and no outsourced jobs would come home.

What does outsourcing have to do with this? What you seem to suggest is that all manufacturing here has been outsourced. That is not true. The US manufactures more goods now than we ever did.
Your post does not refute my point that labor costs are an enormous part of any enterprise, and when you raise those costs, through union mandates, you make companies unprofitable. A quick comparison of costs for GM's plants in Michigan and Toyota's plant in tennessee shows that GM is paying almost twice the labor cost.

 

[rightwinger]

Got a question of logic......

Seeing as the majority of conservatives are not uber wealthy....and likewise, seeing as tyhe amount of uber wealthy makes up only 1 % of the electorate.....and seeing as the "wealthy" make up only 5% opf the elctorate.....

What makes you think that the GOP and conservaitves want to do as you say? What is their driving force? To make only 1% happy?

In other words...you are spinning the truth about conservaitves and the motives of conservatives.

The question is why. Is it that you beleive debating the truth without your spin will result in your losing the debate?

You know? You got me there

I have never understood the logic of why so many conservatives vote against their own best interests. Best I can figure out is twofold.

First, I think they actually buy into the idea that if they make things easy on the wealthy that the trickle down stuff will actually kick in

Second, I think they have become victims of misdirection. Rather than look at the wealthy and questioning why they seem to be accumulating more and more wealth, they have turned on those who are less well off then themselves and blamed them for everything that is wrong with this country

or....maybe....

Just maybe.....

They believe the GOP is correct with their sentiments just as others believe the democratic party is correct with their semtiments.

You see.....both parties spin the intentions and motivations of the opposing party...

you know....the GOP hate the poor and want to only help the rich

and

The DEMs want to enslave their voter base

But guess what.

Most of us do our won thinking and dont fall for the spin and simply see it as a difference in ideology.

So as I see it...

The GOP believ in trickle down..it makes economic sense...the ideology is to protect the business owners and allow them to employ the working class....with the goal to ensure the working class have jobs...It is not an issue of protecting the rich...it is an issue of protecting the business owners...and yes, the ruich are usually business owners.....but the interntion is to ensure work for the workingt class....

And...

The democrats believe in trickle up. They do not want to hurt the business owners, but they need to ensure greed doewsnt have an affect on the working class. They dont wish to enslave their voter base...they simply want certain programs available to them so they can survivie during the most difficult times

You see...both parties hgave reorted to spin and it is killing all fair and balanced debate.

And WE are the losers.

I actually agree with you

But the best way to objectively look at our policies is to look at the actual results. We have bought into supply side economics for 30 years. Rather than see that promised trickle down effect we have seen a steady transfer of wealth from the working class to the super wealthy.

Spending power of working Americans has declined, as has the standard of living. Meanwhile, the wealth of the richest Americans has escalated

This should cause us to question whether the current tax policies are what is best for our nation

 

[The Rabbi]

ones work ethic, loyalty, dedication and enthusiasm have proven to be the best "bargaining" tool...and that is coming from an executive recruiter.

If you need the power of numbers to bargain, then something is wrong with you (not meaning YOU in particular)

I'm sorry, but history is simply against this line of reasoning 100%. What you're saying is that employers can be trusted to be fair. But there's no reason to believe this. Employers can be trusted only to pursue their own self-interest as they understand it, and since it's in their interest to get everything they need to buy, including labor, at the best (i.e., lowest) price they can talk someone into accepting, their interests are directly opposed to those of labor.

An individual worker is in a poor bargaining position, because he needs a job more than the employer needs an employee. While it's true that superior work ethic, loyalty, dedication, and enthusiasm can put one in a better bargaining position relative to someone else who does not have these qualities, you are still not bargaining as an equal. An employer doesn't need any ONE employee as much as the employee needs a job, but he does need ALL of his employees just as much as they, collectively, need jobs. The only way that workers can bargain with employers as equals is if they bargain collectively, not individually. And that requires a union.

you aree ignoring one item.

Greed.

You see greed as a reason why an employer would screw over a dedicated, loyal passionate employee..

But you are worng.

Greed is the reason he would want to keep him. He wants to capitalize on a top employee..and not let his competition capitalize on him.

And how would he keep him?

Higher salary and bonuses.

And before you say I am 100% wrong....do yourself a favor...debate like a man and realize you are not always 100% correct.

You and I are both employers so understand the value of a good employee. Every employee is worth a certain amount to the employer. The more skills and experience they bring to the job, the more valuable they are to the enterprise, the more you can afford to pay them. Other people don't get this.

 

[naturegirl]

ones work ethic, loyalty, dedication and enthusiasm have proven to be the best "bargaining" tool...and that is coming from an executive recruiter.

If you need the power of numbers to bargain, then something is wrong with you (not meaning YOU in particular)

I'm sorry, but history is simply against this line of reasoning 100%. What you're saying is that employers can be trusted to be fair. But there's no reason to believe this. Employers can be trusted only to pursue their own self-interest as they understand it, and since it's in their interest to get everything they need to buy, including labor, at the best (i.e., lowest) price they can talk someone into accepting, their interests are directly opposed to those of labor.

An individual worker is in a poor bargaining position, because he needs a job more than the employer needs an employee. While it's true that superior work ethic, loyalty, dedication, and enthusiasm can put one in a better bargaining position relative to someone else who does not have these qualities, you are still not bargaining as an equal. An employer doesn't need any ONE employee as much as the employee needs a job, but he does need ALL of his employees just as much as they, collectively, need jobs. The only way that workers can bargain with employers as equals is if they bargain collectively, not individually. And that requires a union.

you aree ignoring one item.

Greed.

You see greed as a reason why an employer would screw over a dedicated, loyal passionate employee..

But you are worng.

Greed is the reason he would want to keep him. He wants to capitalize on a top employee..and not let his competition capitalize on him.

And how would he keep him?

Higher salary and bonuses.

And before you say I am 100% wrong....do yourself a favor...debate like a man and realize you are not always 100% correct.

I agree completely Jarhead!! As a small business owner that works right along with my employees each and every day, even I know the value of a "Keeper". There is no doubt I am certainly not alone.

With that said, over the last 21 years we've had our share of guys that want to get off on Friday at noon, call on Sunday night to borrow gas money because they spent their whole paycheck over the weekend. We are a specialized trade and pay our labor well. Let's just say, most of those guys were not "keepers" and managed to go down the road to a competitor. The good ones tend to stay around, like the guy that has worked with us 16 years and the other two 10+. While we are the prop of the business, they are the bones that hold it together, we get it. Too bad some of the other labor doesn't.

 

[Dragon]

You see greed as a reason why an employer would screw over a dedicated, loyal passionate employee..

But you are worng.

Greed is the reason he would want to keep him. He wants to capitalize on a top employee..and not let his competition capitalize on him.

And he will pay whatever price he HAS TO (within reason) in order to ensure that.

But with a union, he will HAVE TO pay a higher price than without one.

Even the best employee is still in an unequal bargaining position.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Got a question of logic......

Seeing as the majority of conservatives are not uber wealthy....and likewise, seeing as tyhe amount of uber wealthy makes up only 1 % of the electorate.....and seeing as the "wealthy" make up only 5% opf the elctorate.....

What makes you think that the GOP and conservaitves want to do as you say? What is their driving force? To make only 1% happy?

Doesn't make and difference what they want to do...it's what they're doing. When Geroge W. Bush cut taxes twice and began to borrow from Chinese banks to cover the shortfall...which still didn't cover it he proved what the Republicans are voting for.

In the last 15 years the wealthy have quadrupled their wealth and average Americans have lost buying power when adjusted for inflation. That's a fact.

You aremaking absolutely no sense whatseover.
You are simply regurgitating talking points...and you completely avoided the logic of my question.
You see...what you have done is taken the spin and repeated it.
That makes you a puppet of the democratic party.
You see...they know the truth....and they know the truth is hard to refute...so they need to spin the truth...and know people like you wopuld be naive enough to repeat it.

So to avoid the spin, I presented a basic question of logic.

And your response?

"Doesnt make a difference what they want to do"

I mean....really?
Thats the best ya got?

LOL...puppet. I'm 77 years old and here is my voting record:

1956 Eisenhower
1960 Nixon
1964 Goldwater
1968 Nixon
1972 Nixon
1976 Did Not Vote
1980 Anderson(I)
1984 Reagan
1988 Did Not Vote
1992 Did Not Vote
1996 Did Not Vote
2000 Did Not Vote
2004 Kerry ***
2008 Obama ***

*** Voted Against Spend and Borrow Republicans

The Republican party used to stand for balanced budgets, small government and individual rights...now they are in the pockets of the corporations and the wealthy.

 

[healthmyths]

you wrote" An individual worker is in a poor bargaining position, because he needs a job more than the employer needs an employee"

I heard once about General Electric that use to build electric locomotives.
They decided to capture all the knowledge of some old timers before those that knew the "secrets" passed on.
Come time to talk several "old timers" Quit!
Formed a consulting firm. Signed a contract for 50 times what they were paid and
GE was happy.. didn't have to pay SS/Medicare/etc.. and old timers?? Happy with nearly 50 times what they were making before all with the same information they gained over 40 years working for GE!

 

[healthmyths]

point is NO UNION was involved!