When This War Is Over - Palestine Will Be Free

[Shusha]

As long as Israel thinks it can choose Palestinian leaders for them, they will not be free.

Sure. It's Israel's fault that all the Palestinian leaders are in the something-teenth year of their four year terms.

 

[there4eyeM]

If Hamas took itself to be the VC and were attempting a "Tet", they have overestimated themselves and underestimated their enemy.

 

[ESay]

Yes, that is what the Arab Palestinians see. It is also what many in the "West" see. We've all seen the fake series of maps with "Palestine" being eaten away over time. The problem is that many believe those fake maps, even when provided evidence proving otherwise.

Ironic, since in the quiet battle for Area C, Palestinians are winning, having managed to settle on 25% of that land, sometimes legally, sometimes illegally, while Israel has only expanded by 4% of that same land.

So the question, I guess, is how can we open Arab Palestinian eyes to self-governance and self-determination in Gaza, in Areas A and B, and their settlements in Area C? How can they be encouraged to take that opportunity and build something, instead of "river to the sea" chants that get them nowhere?

Also, having said that, I've been advocating for that for decades, but I don't know that it is possible anymore. Not after October 7. Which is why I brought up the population exchange.

I think that your stance is not quite honest. Sadly, I think it is shared by most of Israeli politicians. And that is way a two-state solution isn't an option anymore.

The West Bank shouldn't be divided on any areas. It should exist as a single political entity. What you propose, let's put it straight, is a number of 'bantustans' surrounded by Israeli-controlled territory. Is that an option the Arab Palestinians will agree on? Rhetorical question, isn't it?

East Jerusalem. Did you miss it on purpose as the main stumbling point? But nevertheless Israel will have to return to this question. I have no doubts that Israel is determined to keep it as their capital. Let it be so. But the Palestinians should be allowed to make it their capital too. How? Let them have their 'government quarter' there.

 

[ESay]

Yes, this. As far as I am concerned, it is an egregious violation of human rights for the Jewish people not to be permitted to pray or worship at their own Holy site(s). It is also a violation of the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan. There is no reason for the Temple Mount not to be a shared holy site with people of all faiths worshipping together (that was the original idea, after all), or all faiths worshipping at least next to each other. Happens in Israel all the time. But the Muslims are a little sensitive (and by sensitive, I mean violent and murderous) in the you-are-trying-to-take-what-I've-rightfully-stolen sense. But upsetting the delicate status quo on the Temple Mount will certainly lead to a greater war. That is one of the reasons Palestinians keep using Al Aqsa as an excuse for violence - hoping it sparks the greater war. So far, Jordan with its "special role", and the rest of the Muslim world hasn't fallen for that nonsense.

The status quo of the Temple Mount should be preserved. Sure, various religions should be allowed to be expressed there. But, the Al Aqsa mosque should not be endangered, and that should make a separate clause in any possible agreement.

 

[Shusha]

I think that your stance is not quite honest. Sadly, I think it is shared by most of Israeli politicians. And that is way a two-state solution isn't an option anymore.

The West Bank shouldn't be divided on any areas. It should exist as a single political entity. What you propose, let's put it straight, is a number of 'bantustans' surrounded by Israeli-controlled territory. Is that an option the Arab Palestinians will agree on? Rhetorical question, isn't it?

East Jerusalem. Did you miss it on purpose as the main stumbling point? But nevertheless Israel will have to return to this question. I have no doubts that Israel is determined to keep it as their capital. Let it be so. But the Palestinians should be allowed to make it their capital too. How? Let them have their 'government quarter' there.

I don't think you have understood my position. Of course, it should be a single political entity in a permanent peace treaty. I have advocated for a sovereign, contiguous Palestine in the territory known as the "West Bank", preferably with Jews and Arabs living peacefully side-by-side and fully co-operating with each other for mutual prosperity. Contiguity with Gaza is a little more difficult, but not impossible, should Palestine and Gaza want to work together (not convinced that they do).

And yes, I did deliberately refrain from posting about Jerusalem. I wanted to see if we could at least reach some agreement on the easy stuff before we tackled the hard stuff. Because I do agree that Jerusalem is going to be sticky. I don't think Israel will give it up or divide it. Certainly, not to the extent of giving up the Old City and the Temple Mount. Still, I don't think it has to be an unsurmountable problem.

So, back to getting the Palestinian Arabs to accept self-governance and self-determination in a newly formed State of Palestine. How do we accomplish this?

 

[Shusha]

The status quo of the Temple Mount should be preserved. Sure, various religions should be allowed to be expressed there. But, the Al Aqsa mosque should not be endangered, and that should make a separate clause in any possible agreement.

Completely agree.

 

[Kruska]

They can't even be at peace with themselves with their two bad leaderships dividing the Palestinians.

Hamas wouldn't even exist in Gaza - if not for Israels HELP and support.
It was Netanyahu - who pursued the idea, that weakening the moderate PLO (who had acknowledged Israels right to exist) would be a great idea.

 

[Kruska]

I don't think you have understood my position. Of course, it should be a single political entity in a permanent peace treaty. I have advocated for a sovereign, contiguous Palestine in the territory known as the "West Bank", preferably with Jews and Arabs living peacefully side-by-side and fully co-operating with each other for mutual prosperity.

This shows your dishonest approach to the entire issue.

There is absolutely no right for Jews to settle/live in the West-Bank (you are clearly trying to find an excuse to hold onto illegally settled Jewish territory (enclaves). There is far too much hatred on both sides to "sincerely" advocate for a "common together". Maybe in 50+ years.

The Zionists are clearly aware that the Palestinians will reject such a proposal - thus giving them another opportunity to "point out" Palestinian "unwillingness".

 

[Shusha]

There is absolutely no right for Jews to settle/live in the West-Bank

To be clear, then, you are claiming there are places in the world where Jews are not permitted to live. Did you want to give the exact borders of all the places where Jews are not permitted to live?

Let me make my position even more clear. A sovereign State of Israel, with Israeli citizens of both the Jewish and the Arab variety, living side by side with mutual prosperity. (Check, done). As well as, a sovereign State of Palestine, with Palestinian citizens of both the Jewish and the Arab variety, living side by side with mutual prosperity. This is bad, HOW?

 

[Redfish]

When This War Is Over - Palestine Will Be Free​

By what measure of "freedom"?

I guess the dead are free.

 

[Redfish]

This shows your dishonest approach to the entire issue.

There is absolutely no right for Jews to settle/live in the West-Bank (you are clearly trying to find an excuse to hold onto illegally settled Jewish territory (enclaves). There is far too much hatred on both sides to "sincerely" advocate for a "common together". Maybe in 50+ years.

The Zionists are clearly aware that the Palestinians will reject such a proposal - thus giving them another opportunity to "point out" Palestinian "unwillingness".

you have no idea what this is really about. This is part of the muslim 100 year jihad to rule the entire world and idiots like you are helping them.

 

[there4eyeM]

It is clearly written in the Koran what the goals and methods are. There is no need to demean Islam and its followers nor to resort to hyperbole concerning an agenda. Read the Koran.

 

[Billo_Really]

Sure. It's Israel's fault that all the Palestinian leaders are in the something-teenth year of their four year terms.

Abbas is a kiss-ass! And it sucks what Hamas is doing in Gazs, but it still doesn't change the fact Israel cannot afford to pick Palestinian leaders for them.

 

[MJB12741]

Abbas is a kiss-ass! And it sucks what Hamas is doing in Gazs, but it still doesn't change the fact Israel cannot afford to pick Palestinian leaders for them.

No worries. Palestinians already have great leadership to help Israel take care of business.

 

[Kruska]

To be clear, then, you are claiming there are places in the world where Jews are not permitted to live.

To live or to settle (taking other peoples land forcefully into possession) are two very different things

I am not aware of any Jewish person or Israeli - living amongst Palestinians - even in Israel the vast majority of towns and cities are segregated into Arab or Jewish tows - even if mixed, most Palestinians/Arabs are living in the poorer outer areas - where they have been "evicted" to. A harmonious Jewish and Arab-Palestinian society based on equality living in Israel is a fairy tale.

Did you want to give the exact borders of all the places where Jews are not permitted to live?

If there is a sovereign Palestinian State, it automatically has exact borders. It would then be up to the Palestinians to allow or not to allow any non-Palestinian to live in their country. Just as any other country on this planet practices this.

Let me make my position even more clear. A sovereign State of Israel, with Israeli citizens of both the Jewish and the Arab variety, living side by side with mutual prosperity. (Check, done). As well as, a sovereign State of Palestine, with Palestinian citizens of both the Jewish and the Arab variety, living side by side with mutual prosperity. This is bad, HOW?

Where did I state that this would be bad?
However it isn't even working out in Israel - so how is this supposed to work out between Palestinians and Jewish people in a sovereign Palestinian State - where they hate each others guts since 75 years ??? As I had stated - maybe and hopefully in 50 years.

To be very clear - IMO, if Israeli's do not find a way to live together with Palestinian-Arabs in one and the same country - (under real equal standards) - the fate of Israel will be it's destruction at the end of the day.

 

[Shusha]

I am not aware of any Jewish person or Israeli - living amongst Palestinians - even in Israel the vast majority of towns and cities are segregated into Arab or Jewish tows - even if mixed, most Palestinians/Arabs are living in the poorer outer areas - where they have been "evicted" to. A harmonious Jewish and Arab-Palestinian society based on equality living in Israel is a fairy tale.

Yes, I don't disagree with you here, exactly, though I oppose the connotations of the language you use, as I believe they are inaccurate and unnecessarily inflammatory. It is much more complicated than this, of course. And much more organic. There are no policies or legal permissions for "segregation", but is a tendency in some residential areas (depending on where in the country we are discussing) to form communities around commonalities. Some of these are religious in nature, such as orthodox Jews living within walking distance to a synagogue. With respect to squatters and evictions, in some parts of Jerusalem, it is terribly complicated.

But all-in-all, my experience in Israel, demonstrates co-existence is not only possible, but something to celebrate.

If there is a sovereign Palestinian State, it automatically has exact borders.

There isn't one at the moment. Partly, even primarily, because it does not have exact borders. That is part of the treaty negotiations and eventual settlement. It is the treaty which will determine and set the borders.

It would then be up to the Palestinians to allow or not to allow any non-Palestinian to live in their country. Just as any other country on this planet practices this.

Of course. Though I would suggest that rejecting people who live in your country and who are Jewish from becoming Palestinian citizens because they are Jewish, is unacceptable. Which was my major argument to your point that Jews are not permitted to live in the West Bank.

However it isn't even working out in Israel

It is working out as well in Israel as it is in any other nation which has various ethnic communities which tend to reside in certain sectors. Is it perfect? No, it is not. Nor is it perfect in the US or Canada. But it is not a reason to call out Israel as uniquely bad

 

[rylah]

Abbas is a kiss-ass! And it sucks what Hamas is doing in Gazs, but it still doesn't change the fact Israel cannot afford to pick Palestinian leaders for them.

Heh... to "pick them" we "cannot afford",

Sinwar is the deck's new queen,

and what about abu-'Abed?

 

[Kruska]

Yes, I don't disagree with you here, exactly, though I oppose the connotations of the language you use, as I believe they are inaccurate and unnecessarily inflammatory. It is much more complicated than this, of course. And much more organic. There are no policies or legal permissions for "segregation", but is a tendency in some residential areas (depending on where in the country we are discussing) to form communities around commonalities. Some of these are religious in nature, such as orthodox Jews living within walking distance to a synagogue. With respect to squatters and evictions, in some parts of Jerusalem, it is terribly complicated.

I have been countless times to Israel - and unfortunately, there is no such thing as an equal Arab-Jewish society in Israel - and as such there is no need to "fantasize" about a "harmonious" future situation in the West-Bank, that isn't even in existence in present Israel.

But all-in-all, my experience in Israel, demonstrates co-existence is not only possible, but something to celebrate.

Yes - as I had stated before, it would be the ideal solution - however it doesn't even exist in present Israel.

There isn't one at the moment. Partly, even primarily, because it does not have exact borders. That is part of the treaty negotiations and eventual settlement. It is the treaty which will determine and set the borders.

Off course there are no defined borders - since both parties can't provide an adoptable compromise. Israel (the Zionists) are simply not willing to restrict/confine Israels territory based onto the UN 1947 Partition plan. Whereby the Palestinians aren't even asking for a return of the northern Palestinian areas, nor the "original" territorial size of Gaza.

Of course. Though I would suggest that rejecting people who live in your country and who are Jewish from becoming Palestinian citizens because they are Jewish, is unacceptable. Which was my major argument to your point that Jews are not permitted to live in the West Bank.

One can't reject people living in a country that doesn't exist. Therefore if a sovereign Palestine comes into existence - it will be up to the Palestinians to reject or allow Jewish people to stay in e.g. the West-Bank. Due to all the existing hatred since 75 years it simply isn't feasible IMO. Radical Palestinians would be "tempted" to attack such Jewish settlements, and radical Zionist will intentionally cause trouble and reasons, for the IDF to come in and "help" them.

It is working out as well in Israel

No it isn't at all - just for Israelis aka Jewish people. Both societies are segregating each other (in vast majority they are not willing to mix) - and with Jewish people clearly getting the better deals in Israel.

as it is in any other nation which has various ethnic communities which tend to reside in certain sectors. Is it perfect? No, it is not. Nor is it perfect in the US or Canada. But it is not a reason to call out Israel as uniquely bad

Feel free to name me a country that shares the violent history of Israel and the Palestinians for 75 years, that supposedly exists today as a single nation. Heck, even those Ukrainians and Russians who share the same religion and ethnicity can't find a way to peacefully coexist in a common state. If not for NATO or UN forces in e.g. Bosnia, they would still be going at each others throats.

You are clearly promoting/propagating the Zionist approach - Israel is only willing to acknowledge a sovereign Palestine, based onto a territory that "respects" - "allows" for these illegal Jewish settlements to remain in e.g. the West-bank. And personally I do not see any feasibility of such an Israeli proposal being found acceptable in any way by the Palestinians. (and the Zionists know that).

In order to achieve a lasting peaceful solution, these two knuckleheads need two separate, sovereign states. And hopefully in e.g. 50 years they might arrive at the conclusion - that joining up would be a great and feasible idea.

 

[MJB12741]

I have been countless times to Israel - and unfortunately, there is no such thing as an equal Arab-Jewish society in Israel - and as such there is no need to "fantasize" about a "harmonious" future situation in the West-Bank, that isn't even in existence in present Israel.

Yes - as I had stated before, it would be the ideal solution - however it doesn't even exist in present Israel.

Off course there are no defined borders - since both parties can't provide an adoptable compromise. Israel (the Zionists) are simply not willing to restrict/confine Israels territory based onto the UN 1947 Partition plan. Whereby the Palestinians aren't even asking for a return of the northern Palestinian areas, nor the "original" territorial size of Gaza.

One can't reject people living in a country that doesn't exist. Therefore if a sovereign Palestine comes into existence - it will be up to the Palestinians to reject or allow Jewish people to stay in e.g. the West-Bank. Due to all the existing hatred since 75 years it simply isn't feasible IMO. Radical Palestinians would be "tempted" to attack such Jewish settlements, and radical Zionist will intentionally cause trouble and reasons, for the IDF to come in and "help" them.

No it isn't at all - just for Israelis aka Jewish people. Both societies are segregating each other (in vast majority they are not willing to mix) - and with Jewish people clearly getting the better deals in Israel.

Feel free to name me a country that shares the violent history of Israel and the Palestinians for 75 years, that supposedly exists today as a single nation. Heck, even those Ukrainians and Russians who share the same religion and ethnicity can't find a way to peacefully coexist in a common state. If not for NATO or UN forces in e.g. Bosnia, they would still be going at each others throats.

You are clearly promoting/propagating the Zionist approach - Israel is only willing to acknowledge a sovereign Palestine, based onto a territory that "respects" - "allows" for these illegal Jewish settlements to remain in e.g. the West-bank. And personally I do not see any feasibility of such an Israeli proposal being found acceptable in any way by the Palestinians. (and the Zionists know that).

In order to achieve a lasting peaceful solution, these two knuckleheads need two separate, sovereign states. And hopefully in e.g. 50 years they might arrive at the conclusion - that joining up would be a great and feasible idea.

Doesn't seem at all that the Palestinians would love to live in peace with two separate sovereign states in the same land. "From the river to the sea"

 

[Shusha]

In order to achieve a lasting peaceful solution, these two knuckleheads need two separate, sovereign states.

Are you suggesting that, in order to achieve true equality and self-determination, each of these two sovereign states would be better off being ethnically singular? As in a population exchange? Not sarcasm. Genuine question.