When This War Is Over - Palestine Will Be Free

[Kruska]

But the right to self-determination is not equivalent to the ability to self-determine.

on which planet do you live?

When the Arabs are given space for self-determination, and they use that self-determination to slaughter Jews, their rights become significantly more limited.

Arabs?

The Palestinians haven't been given the basis for self-determination, by Israel - so what are you fantasying about? Locking them up in Gaza and making them economically unsustainable - isn't giving a basis for a peaceful self-determination. It's factually enforcing/inciting violence towards Israel.
The Palestinians haven't been given their own State by Israel, nor has Israel ever acknowledged a sovereign Palestine, unlike a 136 UN member-states - so what are you babbling about?

Once the Palestinians have their own sovereign country - and won't be able to control radical Palestinians from committing terrorist acts against Jews aka Israel - upon a reasonable grace period of at least e.g. 10 years. Then and only then Israel would have a "qualified" reason to react onto terrorism committed towards Israeli's.

E.g. Bosnia/Herzegovina has been "assisted" by UN/NATO troops, deployed since 1995 to guarantee stability and security for itself and it's neighbors, with EUFOR being extended till 2024. That's 30 years!!! and they never had a civil-war with Serbia, lasting and filled with hatred for 75 years before 1995!!!

But anyway, as long as the Zionists (foremost the radical ones) are around or even worse; "in power in Israel" as presently - a peaceful settlement will NEVER be reached - since it has NEVER been the intention nor goal of the radical Zionists. SINCE THEY WANT ALL OF IT !!, plus some extras - e.g. Golan-heights and a southern part of Lebanon.

Peace and safety for Israel therefore isn't even an issue determined by the Palestinians at all - but solely a political-social internal issue amongst Israelis themselves, in a major first step, before "talking" to the Palestinians or anyone else about whatever. See Yitzhak Rabin, so far having been Israels last hope for a realistic peace, till November 1995.

Aka as long as the Nazi's were in power in Germany (with their well known agenda) - what sense would/does it make to "negotiate" with them, or sign treaties ??? Arafat was just like Chamberlain, - conned into giving in towards accepting the State of Israel - aka giving Sudetenland to the Nazis - after that, Israel intensified it's illegal settlement policy - aka Hitler taking the rest of Czechoslovakia.

Who are you trying to kid, and hope to succeed?? only towards the dumbest of the dumb.

 

[Roudy]

You mean you are once again referring to your non-existent knowledge.

Jesus (if he even existed) was not born in Israel, and neither in Judea - since Herod Antipas (a strong promoter of Hellenistic (Greco-Roman culture) was only the Roman appointed Tetrarch (ruler of a minor principality) of Roman Syria Palestine - aka the Roman minor principality of Galilee and Peraea.

As such Jesus (His name was Jesus of Nazareth - and not Jesus of Bethlehem) was born as a Jew in the ROMAN minor principality of Galilee - a part of Roman Syria Palestine. And he certainly wasn't a Zionist, since he NEVER preached about a Jewish state nor towards resurrecting the long gone Kingdom of David and Solomon.

Even if Jesus was born in Bethlehem (no proof) - he would have been born as a Jew in the Roman minor principality of Samaria - a minor principality within the Roman Province of Judea. Governed by the Roman appointed Ethnarch, Herod Archelaus - not even a Tetrarch like his brother Antipas. And Bethlehem today is in the West-bank, making Mr. Jesus a Jewish-Palestinian.

Just as there was no Germany in 5 B.C. there was no Israel in 5 B.C. As such someone born in Augusta Vindelicorum - today called Augsburg would have been born in the ROMAN province of Rhaetia and his ethnicity might have been that of a Celtic Bayuvari - e.g. a Jew from the Roman province of Galilee - and therefore he wouldn't have been born in Germany and neither in Israel.

You know what is the historic and mental difference between a Celtic Bayuvari and a crackpot Jewish Zionist?

The first one was never utterly destroyed and expelled from his homeland - but stayed there continuously for 3500 years until today in Bavaria, (just as the forefathers of today's Palestinians). As such no Celtic Bayuvari, who's ancestors happen to migrate to and live for 2000 years in e.g. Egypt - ever had the nerve nor arrogance, to claim someone else's land and house in Bavaria in 1917 - citing that his grandgrandgrandgrand........daddy used to live there 2000 years ago.

Again you over and over proof, that YOU know NOTHING - but only post pure garbage.

Again you prove your ignorance and stupidity. There was no such thing as Palestine during Jesus time moron. Only after Jesus‘ crucifixion, the rebellion and the sacking of Jerusalem did the Roman’s end up calling ancient Israel and Judea “Palestine“. Unless you’re ignorant stupid. As can show me a single verse in the New Testament referring a Palestine or Syria Palestina, you are full shit. Jesus according to his own words came as the Messiah of the Old Testament, and to first and foremost save his people and Israel from the Roman occupation. You are just yet another pathetic Jew hating moron who worships a man born and raised as a JEW from Israel.

7 Things to Know About Bethlehem, the Birthplace of Jesus

Discover 7 things about Bethlehem, the place of Jesus' birth, you may not have known!

www.biblestudytools.com

“The biblical account of nativity tells us that Jesus was born during the time the Israelites were called to participate in Caesar Augustus’ census. Joseph and Mary had to travel from the town of Nazareth to Bethlehem so that they could fulfill their duty (Luke 2). Why would the couple have to travel more than 80 miles to be counted? In deference to Jewish customs, Roman law required people who lived in Judea and the surrounding area to return to their ancestral homeland for census registration. Since Joseph belonged to the house and line of David, Bethlehem was his designated census hub.”

Matthew 2:1, 2 says, “Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, ‘Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.’”

Micah 5:2 says, “But you, Bethlehem, Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.”

While Bethlehem in Judea was known in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament as being the birthplace of King David and the birthplace of the future messiah, the small village of Nazareth in Galilee was much lesser-known, not even warranting a mention in the Hebrew Bible, the Talmud or in the writings of Josephus. King explains, “Nazareth derives its importance entirely from its relationship to the life and teaching of Jesus.”

Although small, Bethlehem has a rich history in the Bible. It is called “the city of David” (Luke 2:4) because it was the hometown of that mighty monarch of Israel. Bethlehem is where Jacob buried his beloved wife, Rachel, when she died in childbirth (Genesis 35:19, 20). Bethlehem is where Ruth gleaned in the fields of Boaz (Ruth 1:22; 2:4). It was in Bethlehem that the prophet Samuel anointed David to be king of Israel (1 Samuel 16).

 

[Kruska]

There was no such thing as Palestine during Jesus time moron. Only after Jesus‘ crucifixion, the rebellion

Jewish independence came to an abrupt end when Pompey (later a member of Rome’s first triumvirate) annexed Palestine to Syria in 63 B.C. In Judea, Perea, Idumea, and Galilee,(the 4 Minor provinces of Roman Palestine) the Romans continued the local Jewish administration then in place, under the jurisdiction of the Roman governor of Syria. The governor of the Roman province of Syria at the time of Jesus was, Publius Quinctilius Varus,

The sons of King Herod the Great were tyrannical rulers. Herod Archelaus, who ruled over Judea, Idumea and Samaria, was so brutal in his exercise of power in Jerusalem, that Rome judged him as an incompetent ruler and deposed him in 6 A.D. that is DURING Mr. Jesus times.

After the deposition of Herod Archelaus, Judea became a de facto Roman province with the Romans establishing there a form of government with Roman overseers and local leaders who held and exercised power on behalf of Rome. e.g. Pontius Pilate. thus retaining the name Judea, but being a new Roman province - in Roman Palestine.

Upon the destruction of Jerusalem - Roman Palestine was centrally governed by Roman Syria - since there were no more local appointed governors - hence joining Judea and Galilee and naming it into Roman Syria Palestine - on the orders of Hadrian in 132 A.D. Since the name and Roman province of Palestine had already existed prior. Independent of the Roman province of Syria that remained as the Roman province of Syria.

Jesus daddy was supposedly from the house of David - therefore a Roman census would require him to register-appear in Bethlehem. And NOT Jesus. who wasn't even born then. And I don't really care of what some fellow was self-inspired to write some 100-200 years later.

Bethlehem is for those who believe in Santa Claus and setup a crib under the Christmas tree - to celebrate his supposed birthday on December 25th."


Your "knowledge" towards FACTS, as usual is ZERO.

 

[Roudy]

Jewish independence came to an abrupt end when Pompey (later a member of Rome’s first triumvirate) annexed Palestine to Syria in 63 B.C. In Judea, Perea, Idumea, and Galilee,(the 4 Minor provinces of Roman Palestine) the Romans continued the local Jewish administration then in place, under the jurisdiction of the Roman governor of Syria. The governor of the Roman province of Syria at the time of Jesus was, Publius Quinctilius Varus,

The sons of King Herod the Great were tyrannical rulers. Herod Archelaus, who ruled over Judea, Idumea and Samaria, was so brutal in his exercise of power in Jerusalem, that Rome judged him as an incompetent ruler and deposed him in 6 A.D. that is DURING Mr. Jesus times.

After the deposition of Herod Archelaus, Judea became a de facto Roman province with the Romans establishing there a form of government with Roman overseers and local leaders who held and exercised power on behalf of Rome. e.g. Pontius Pilate. thus retaining the name Judea, but being a new Roman province - in Roman Palestine.

Upon the destruction of Jerusalem - Roman Palestine was centrally governed by Roman Syria - since there were no more local appointed governors - hence joining Judea and Galilee and naming it into Roman Syria Palestine - on the orders of Hadrian in 132 A.D. Since the name and Roman province of Palestine had already existed prior. Independent of the Roman province of Syria that remained as the Roman province of Syria.

Jesus daddy was supposedly from the house of David - therefore a Roman census would require him to register-appear in Bethlehem. And NOT Jesus. who wasn't even born then. And I don't really care of what some fellow was self-inspired to write some 100-200 years later.

Bethlehem is for those who believe in Santa Claus and setup a crib under the Christmas tree - to celebrate his supposed birthday on December 25th."


Your "knowledge" towards FACTS, as usual is ZERO.

All this idiotic nonsensical blah blah blah from this ignorant moron…and fact still remains, Jesus was born and died as a Jew, in Judea. No such thing as Palestine during Jesus’ time. He was a Zionist because you cannot be a practicing Jew and not be a Zionist, it is part of the faith.

It doesn’t matter what the invading Romans decided to Israel it AFTERWARDS. Ancient Israel Judea and other provinces names were changed to “Palestina” in second century CE (which is the same as AD). That is about 200 years after Jesus’ crucifixion. That is a scientific, historic fact.

The Forgotten History of the Term "Palestine"

Some think of the Palestinian-Israeli dispute as a clash of nationalisms. Others stress religious antagonism, while others yet see an East-West power struggle. But it is roundly agreed upon that a key element of the conflict is land. That land, for many years by many people, was called...

www.hudson.org

The ancient Romans pinned the name on the Land of Israel. In 135 CE, after stamping out the province of Judea’s second insurrection, the Romans renamed the province Syria Palaestina—that is, “Palestinian Syria.” They did so resentfully, as a punishment, to obliterate the link between the Jews (in Hebrew, Y’hudim and in Latin Judaei) and the province (the Hebrew name of which was Y’hudah). “Palaestina” referred to the Philistines, whose home base had been on the Mediterranean coast.

 

[Shusha]

Israel aka the radical Zionists

Okay. Right away you are going hard with using language intended to provoke and demonize. "Zionist" is typically used as code for "bad Jew". Because you and I haven't interacted much, let's establish some basic definitions so we understand each other. How would you define "Zionist"? How would one differentiate a radical Zionist from a moderate one or a liberal one? I define "Zionist" as someone who accepts the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty within their traditional territory or homeland. It is exactly on par with First Nations peoples of the Americas having a right to self-determination and sovereignty within their traditional territory or homeland. Yes, to the extent of having a State.

differ from all other countries/examples - in that they propagate that it is okay to take away other peoples land, occupy it, oppress other ethnicity

Other people's land? Israel isn't interested in other people's land. Israel is interested in the land of it's own history, of it's own culture, of it's own ancestral ties to that specific place. Are you arguing that a people can be disenfranchised from their own homeland? Conquered? Overtaken? Exiled? Are you arguing that a people can legally and morally lose their rights as indigenous peoples?

... (because I can't make sense of what you are actually trying to argue here) ...

Highhandedly allocating land in an area totally dominated and populated by Muslims and their culture for almost 1400 years

So, you are arguing that domination is the key property of legal and moral self-determination? Whoever dominates wins? You might want to take a step back from that.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians haven't been given the basis for self-determination, by Israel

You went sideways from my point. Self-determination isn't given by another, it is SELF. DETERMINED. Hence the designation. That is the entire point. Entire. I am so very tired of people insisting that Palestinians Arabs are incapable. You do them such a disservice. What, exactly, do you think the "basis" for self-determination is? There are dozens of States with minimal territory, limited resources, small populations, confined borders, and all the other "but it's not ideal"s. And yet, they have States. They have successful States.

- so what are you fantasying about? Locking them up in Gaza and making them economically unsustainable - isn't giving a basis for a peaceful self-determination.

Gaza has everything it needs to be economically sustainable: an agriculture industry which is robust enough to export fruits and vegetables in the millions of $ annually; an untapped luxury tourist destination; natural gas reserves; a Mediterranean port with access (potentially) to the Arab world. The problem with Gaza is not that it is economically unsustainable, it is that they are expending their resources on an (unwinnable) war instead of creating economic stability.

The Palestinians haven't been given their own State by Israel, nor has Israel ever acknowledged a sovereign Palestine, unlike a 136 UN member-states - so what are you babbling about?

You don't get "given" a State, you build one. Arabs have been self-governing in Gaza and Areas A and B for decades. Just end the belligerence and agree to a border. That is literally all that needs to be done for Palestine to be a State. And yet ... the Arabs can't seem to be able to do it.

 

[ESay]

The end game is, has always been, the survival of the Jewish people. I mean, we'd like to also have a thriving nation where the expression of Jewish culture and history and religion and values are celebrated and honored and cherished. We sure would love to pray at our most holy site. But the baseline is just to avoid extermination. It's a terribly low standard, and yet ... here we are.

The Arab people in Palestine have a right to self-determination. I said ALL peoples, and I meant it. But the right to self-determination is not equivalent to the ability to self-determine. When the Arabs are given space for self-determination, and they use that self-determination to slaughter Jews, their rights become significantly more limited. The right to self-determination comes with obligations. You have to play nicely with the others in the sandbox. If you renege on your obligations, you demonstrate that you are not (yet) ready to take on the responsibility of self-determination. If you want a nation, you have to be able to BUILD something, you can't just be focused on destroying.

See the problem is that everyone is constantly making demands on Israel, as though Israel can somehow force the Arabs of Palestine to take on the mantle of self-determination and building. Israel has no ability to create that reality for the Arabs. The Arabs have to do that for themselves. And they don't seem to have the will for it, at least not in "Palestine".

So, what can Israel do? Well, the options are kinda limited. It can apply Israeli sovereignty over the Arab people. Or it can abandon territory to give space for Arab self-determination. (Either way Israel tends to get blamed for all the consequent decisions made by the Arabs.)

Thus far, abandonment of territory by Israel has led to terrible outcomes for both the Arabs and the Israelis. Arabs get stuck with corrupt and/or genocidal leaders who fail spectacularly at self-determination and creating prosperity for their citizens. Israelis get stuck with the pointy end of knives and rockets and shovels.

What is the endgame, then? Since Palestinian Arab self-determination doesn't seem to be possible in the foreseeable future, another nation has to determine for them. (It doesn't have to be Israel. It could be another Arab nation.) Those not able to play nicely in the sandbox with others have to be contained, removed, or, tragically, killed. There are no other options that I can conceive of. If you've got one, I'd love to hear it. Personally, I'm not opposed to a population exchange. It's an ugly solution, but it's been done before, and the outcomes appear not to be as tragic and terrible as this ongoing conflict.

The population exchange would be not that bad idea, indeed. But what population and what territories could be exchanged? Replace the Arabs from Gaza in exchange for the Jewish settlements in the West Bank? The numbers and territories aren't equal, and I doubt the both sides will agree on that. And here, we even leave the Palestinian refugees in neighboring countries out of equation, who want to exercise their right on return.

You see, in the eyes of the Arab Palestinians, Israel doesn't abandon any land. On the contrary, it takes more and more with the time. In their eyes, what began as a number of scattered settlements turned into an occupational force driving them off of their native land with the clear intention of taking all of 'Palestine' from them.

I don't know what solution could be. For me, it is more or less clear that a two-state solution with 1967 borders (to say nothing about 1947 ones) is not viable anymore. Thus, there is no other choice than 'one country for two nations'.

 

[ESay]

You lose your rights when you engage in violent criminal behavior.

Did you somehow miss the CELEBRATIONS over the rape, murder and torture of innocent civilians ? Or do you just want to run with another "yeah, but..."???

Yes, with another 'yeah, but..' I have numerous times repeated here that I support the Israel's right on self-defense and that Hamas as a military group should be eliminated.

But. You know when the shit really hits the fun? When the guys in sheets and sidelocks will want to establish their rules on the Al Aqsa place. Anything before that is just 'the local fights'.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

Free from Israel's peace offerings, land concessions, water, food, fuel & saving Palestinian lives in Israeli hospitals.

When this war is over they'll be a million Palestinians spread across the west

 

[Carl in Michigan]

But. You know when the shit really hits the fun? When the guys in sheets and sidelocks will want to establish their rules on the Al Aqsa place

That is the site of GODS TEMPLE. Is it any wonder SATAN put that mosque to himself there?
It WILL come down and God's Temple will be rebuilt.

 

[ESay]

That is the site of GODS TEMPLE. Is it any wonder SATAN put that mosque to himself there?
It WILL come down and God's Temple will be rebuilt.

Fine. If you are ready to engage in 'holy wars' there - full speed.

 

[Kruska]

All this idiotic nonsensical blah blah blah from this ignorant moron…and fact still remains, Jesus was born and died as a Jew, in Judea. No such thing as Palestine during Jesus’ time. He was a Zionist because you cannot be a practicing Jew and not be a Zionist, it is part of the faith.

It doesn’t matter what the invading Romans decided to Israel it AFTERWARDS. Ancient Israel Judea and other provinces names were changed to “Palestina” in second century CE (which is the same as AD). That is about 200 years after Jesus’ crucifixion. That is a scientific, historic fact.

The Forgotten History of the Term "Palestine"

Some think of the Palestinian-Israeli dispute as a clash of nationalisms. Others stress religious antagonism, while others yet see an East-West power struggle. But it is roundly agreed upon that a key element of the conflict is land. That land, for many years by many people, was called...

www.hudson.org

The ancient Romans pinned the name on the Land of Israel. In 135 CE, after stamping out the province of Judea’s second insurrection, the Romans renamed the province Syria Palaestina—that is, “Palestinian Syria.” They did so resentfully, as a punishment, to obliterate the link between the Jews (in Hebrew, Y’hudim and in Latin Judaei) and the province (the Hebrew name of which was Y’hudah). “Palaestina” referred to the Philistines, whose home base had been on the Mediterranean coast.

Your diversionary and deflecting posts don't help you at all, to overcome your non existent history knowledge.
This Thread-Topic, and neither the Palestinian -Israeli issue are based nor solvable via the term Palestine.

Fact is - Palestine refers to the Philistines - first mentioned by Egyptian and Hittite inscriptions dating 200-300 years prior to the first appearance of the term Israel/Israelite. same goes for the cities and people of Canaan - dating even 1000+ years before the term Israel.

The Greeks only mentioned a Philistine at around 900 B.C. and never an Israel nor a Kingdom of David and Solomon. Meaning that an upcoming Kingdom of David ..., wasn't recognizable at the time or simply insignificant. However most likely due to the fact that the Egyptians had destroyed the initial Kingdom of David... within 50-70 years of its initial founding, and it didn't reappear before 900 B.C.

It had been successively destroyed again in around 800 B.C. by the Assyrians, and again in around 550 B.C. by the Persians.
After that only a certain unknown number of a Jewish population then named Hebrews, returned from the Babylonian exile and resettled predominantly in Judea and Galilee amongst the existing remaining Jews - and did not represent a sovereign State nor power anymore - until 1948. A.D.

The Greeks returned under Alexander the Great to this area around 330 B.C. - conquered it from the Persians and controlled it. After Alexanders death the entire area incl. Egypt was given to Ptolemy who in succession lost the Palestine part to the Hellenistic Nabateans and Hellenistic Seleucids - thus giving rise to Jewish Zionist aspirations centered in Judea and Galilee.

The people and territory that Rome started to conquer from 64 B.C. onward was called Hasmonean by the Romans, controlled and subjugated by the Nabataean Kingdom. - the latter factually Arabs, initially centered around the Negev area, and therefore the immediate ancestors of the today's Arab-Palestinians. The Nabataen Kingdom encompassed today's Jordan, Sinai, the West-Bank, Gaza and Southern Lebanon. Basically what today's Zionists claim to be Israel.

In order to execute control over the predominantly Jewish population in the now Roman provinces of Judea and Galilee (the name coming from the Jewish Hasmonean Dynasty), adjacent to the remaining Nabataean Kingdom and ally of Rome - the Romans appointed an Arab who had converted to Judaism to govern Palestine in Rome's name. - that person was Antipater (the founder of the Herodian dynasty) and was given the title Procurator of Judea by Caesar. The Herodians were disliked by the Zionist factions since they ruled in Rome's interest and orders.

Due to the power transformation - the Herodians having replaced the Jewish Zionist Hasmonean Dynasty, that in turn was controlled by the former Nabataean rulers, - parts of the Jewish population started to dream again about their former Kingdom of David and Solomon. aka resurgent Zionists.

It was the Nabataean rulers that had initially supported the Jewish Zionist Maccabees in Judea to form the Jewish Zionist Hasmonean Dynasty, in order to fight the Hellenic Seleucids.

As usual the Zionist inspired Jews then started attacking neighboring territory, in that case Nabataean held Gaza, and the Jewish Hasmonean King, Janneus was soundly defeated by Obodas I (c. 96-85 B.C.) who then reclaimed Gaza and Ashkelon. Obodas I, then defeated the Seleucid Greeks under Antiochus XII Dionysius (87-84 BCE), killing the king, scattering his army and taking control of today's Northern Israel and Golan. Thus only leaving Judea and Galilee under Hasmonean vassal rule.

With the Romans having conquered Judea and Galilee - thus destroying the Hasmonean Kingdom - they destroyed the existing Zionist ambitions with it. Upon the last Herodian ruler having passed away - the Zionists tried to revolt and regain Judea and Galilee - resulting into their final and utter destruction by Rome - their dispersal throughout the world and Rome changing the name Palestine to Syria-Palestine, 100 not 200 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. And again the Zionists tried to resurrect a former Kingdom of David and Solomon, according to the Zionist doctrine, from 1917 onward to this day.

Via attacking and killing others and robbing their lands - just as they had done initially with the Canaanites 3000 years before.
And the Jews, or rather the Zionists, hadn't done anything to others, then what any other culture or civilization hasn't done as well.

The most significant difference (most likely the only one) is their RELIGION - which has evidently hindered them from in-cooperating other ethnicity and cultures - in order to gain a population strength, that is vital for any ethnic group to stay in power or at least to permit a certain ethnicity of people to remain in a specific area.

A "Lone Ranger" doesn't have friends - and sooner or later get's everyone against him.

That the Arabs and Palestinians however were totally aware of the Jewish, foremost the Jewish Zionist aspiration and their history is understood - and therefore resulted in the immediate rejection towards allowing Zionist Jews to create a Homeland - knowing that the Zionist will use a Homeland as a basis, to resurrect the former Kingdom of David and Solomon.

That due to the creation of Islam - a further rejection towards a Zionist Homeland came into the picture/equation is also understood.

And that brings us to today's, Israel/Palestinian issue - the reluctance of the Zionists to acknowledge a sovereign Palestine. and the Zionist policy of continuous suppression of Palestinian refugees, murdering and killing them and robbing their remaining lands. Whilst japing and whining about Palestinian retaliation, that results in murdered and killed Jewish people. = aka Zionists = HYPOCRITES.

 

[Kruska]

Okay. Right away you are going hard with using language intended to provoke and demonize. "Zionist" is typically used as code for "bad Jew". Because you and I haven't interacted much, let's establish some basic definitions so we understand each other. How would you define "Zionist"? How would one differentiate a radical Zionist from a moderate one or a liberal one? I define "Zionist" as someone who accepts the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty within their traditional territory or homeland. It is exactly on par with First Nations peoples of the Americas having a right to self-determination and sovereignty within their traditional territory or homeland. Yes, to the extent of having a State.

Other people's land? Israel isn't interested in other people's land. Israel is interested in the land of it's own history, of it's own culture, of it's own ancestral ties to that specific place. Are you arguing that a people can be disenfranchised from their own homeland? Conquered? Overtaken? Exiled? Are you arguing that a people can legally and morally lose their rights as indigenous peoples?


So, you are arguing that domination is the key property of legal and moral self-determination? Whoever dominates wins? You might want to take a step back from that.

Fell free to read up my post #112

 

[Kruska]

When this war is over they'll be a million Palestinians spread across the west


View attachment 869881

The photo you show does not depict Palestinians - but obviously Africans, e.g. Boko Haram, etc.

 

[MJB12741]

on which planet do you live?


Arabs?

The Palestinians haven't been given the basis for self-determination, by Israel - so what are you fantasying about? Locking them up in Gaza and making them economically unsustainable - isn't giving a basis for a peaceful self-determination. It's factually enforcing/inciting violence towards Israel.
The Palestinians haven't been given their own State by Israel, nor has Israel ever acknowledged a sovereign Palestine, unlike a 136 UN member-states - so what are you babbling about?

Once the Palestinians have their own sovereign country - and won't be able to control radical Palestinians from committing terrorist acts against Jews aka Israel - upon a reasonable grace period of at least e.g. 10 years. Then and only then Israel would have a "qualified" reason to react onto terrorism committed towards Israeli's.

E.g. Bosnia/Herzegovina has been "assisted" by UN/NATO troops, deployed since 1995 to guarantee stability and security for itself and it's neighbors, with EUFOR being extended till 2024. That's 30 years!!! and they never had a civil-war with Serbia, lasting and filled with hatred for 75 years before 1995!!!

But anyway, as long as the Zionists (foremost the radical ones) are around or even worse; "in power in Israel" as presently - a peaceful settlement will NEVER be reached - since it has NEVER been the intention nor goal of the radical Zionists. SINCE THEY WANT ALL OF IT !!, plus some extras - e.g. Golan-heights and a southern part of Lebanon.

Peace and safety for Israel therefore isn't even an issue determined by the Palestinians at all - but solely a political-social internal issue amongst Israelis themselves, in a major first step, before "talking" to the Palestinians or anyone else about whatever. See Yitzhak Rabin, so far having been Israels last hope for a realistic peace, till November 1995.

Aka as long as the Nazi's were in power in Germany (with their well known agenda) - what sense would/does it make to "negotiate" with them, or sign treaties ??? Arafat was just like Chamberlain, - conned into giving in towards accepting the State of Israel - aka giving Sudetenland to the Nazis - after that, Israel intensified it's illegal settlement policy - aka Hitler taking the rest of Czechoslovakia.

Who are you trying to kid, and hope to succeed?? only towards the dumbest of the dumb.

Great news for you. When this war is over the Palestinians sure will have self determination free from Israel. Thank God.

 

[TheParser]

Even if there is someday an independent (demilitarized) Palestine, it will be like all the other Arab nations: a dictatorship run by the corrupt elite.

Those folks, lovely as they are, simply are incapable of democracy. (Same for Africa.)

 

[Kruska]

You went sideways from my point. Self-determination isn't given by another, it is SELF. DETERMINED.

One can only be "self-determined" and successful - if others or favorable co-incidents support a self-determination.

Self-Determination;
The process by which a country determines its own statehood and forms its own government:

Aka - without Britain supporting a self-determined Jewish homeland in 1917 - the British not banning the arming of Palestinians, the British and its Allies not having trained thousands of Jews fighting against Nazism, and the USA not having immediately recognized a sovereign Israel in 1948 - there would be no Israel, that could self determine it's fate.

Nor could the Zionists have successfully "self-determined" their future - but simply lived out an illusion or dream about self-determination.

 

[Roudy]

Your diversionary and deflecting posts don't help you at all, to overcome your non existent history knowledge.
This Thread-Topic, and neither the Palestinian -Israeli issue are based nor solvable via the term Palestine.

Fact is - Palestine refers to the Philistines - first mentioned by Egyptian and Hittite inscriptions dating 200-300 years prior to the first appearance of the term Israel/Israelite. same goes for the cities and people of Canaan - dating even 1000+ years before the term Israel.

The Greeks only mentioned a Philistine at around 900 B.C. and never an Israel nor a Kingdom of David and Solomon. Meaning that an upcoming Kingdom of David ..., wasn't recognizable at the time or simply insignificant. However most likely due to the fact that the Egyptians had destroyed the initial Kingdom of David... within 50-70 years of its initial founding, and it didn't reappear before 900 B.C.

It had been successively destroyed again in around 800 B.C. by the Assyrians, and again in around 550 B.C. by the Persians.
After that only a certain unknown number of a Jewish population then named Hebrews, returned from the Babylonian exile and resettled predominantly in Judea and Galilee amongst the existing remaining Jews - and did not represent a sovereign State nor power anymore - until 1948. A.D.

The Greeks returned under Alexander the Great to this area around 330 B.C. - conquered it from the Persians and controlled it. After Alexanders death the entire area incl. Egypt was given to Ptolemy who in succession lost the Palestine part to the Hellenistic Nabateans and Hellenistic Seleucids - thus giving rise to Jewish Zionist aspirations centered in Judea and Galilee.

The people and territory that Rome started to conquer from 64 B.C. onward was called Hasmonean by the Romans, controlled and subjugated by the Nabataean Kingdom. - the latter factually Arabs, initially centered around the Negev area, and therefore the immediate ancestors of the today's Arab-Palestinians. The Nabataen Kingdom encompassed today's Jordan, Sinai, the West-Bank, Gaza and Southern Lebanon. Basically what today's Zionists claim to be Israel.

In order to execute control over the predominantly Jewish population in the now Roman provinces of Judea and Galilee (the name coming from the Jewish Hasmonean Dynasty), adjacent to the remaining Nabataean Kingdom and ally of Rome - the Romans appointed an Arab who had converted to Judaism to govern Palestine in Rome's name. - that person was Antipater (the founder of the Herodian dynasty) and was given the title Procurator of Judea by Caesar. The Herodians were disliked by the Zionist factions since they ruled in Rome's interest and orders.

Due to the power transformation - the Herodians having replaced the Jewish Zionist Hasmonean Dynasty, that in turn was controlled by the former Nabataean rulers, - parts of the Jewish population started to dream again about their former Kingdom of David and Solomon. aka resurgent Zionists.

It was the Nabataean rulers that had initially supported the Jewish Zionist Maccabees in Judea to form the Jewish Zionist Hasmonean Dynasty, in order to fight the Hellenic Seleucids.

As usual the Zionist inspired Jews then started attacking neighboring territory, in that case Nabataean held Gaza, and the Jewish Hasmonean King, Janneus was soundly defeated by Obodas I (c. 96-85 B.C.) who then reclaimed Gaza and Ashkelon. Obodas I, then defeated the Seleucid Greeks under Antiochus XII Dionysius (87-84 BCE), killing the king, scattering his army and taking control of today's Northern Israel and Golan. Thus only leaving Judea and Galilee under Hasmonean vassal rule.

With the Romans having conquered Judea and Galilee - thus destroying the Hasmonean Kingdom - they destroyed the existing Zionist ambitions with it. Upon the last Herodian ruler having passed away - the Zionists tried to revolt and regain Judea and Galilee - resulting into their final and utter destruction by Rome - their dispersal throughout the world and Rome changing the name Palestine to Syria-Palestine, 100 not 200 years after Jesus was supposedly crucified. And again the Zionists tried to resurrect a former Kingdom of David and Solomon, according to the Zionist doctrine, from 1917 onward to this day.

Via attacking and killing others and robbing their lands - just as they had done initially with the Canaanites 3000 years before.
And the Jews, or rather the Zionists, hadn't done anything to others, then what any other culture or civilization hasn't done as well.

The most significant difference (most likely the only one) is their RELIGION - which has evidently hindered them from in-cooperating other ethnicity and cultures - in order to gain a population strength, that is vital for any ethnic group to stay in power or at least to permit a certain ethnicity of people to remain in a specific area.

A "Lone Ranger" doesn't have friends - and sooner or later get's everyone against him.

That the Arabs and Palestinians however were totally aware of the Jewish, foremost the Jewish Zionist aspiration and their history is understood - and therefore resulted in the immediate rejection towards allowing Zionist Jews to create a Homeland - knowing that the Zionist will use a Homeland as a basis, to resurrect the former Kingdom of David and Solomon.

That due to the creation of Islam - a further rejection towards a Zionist Homeland came into the picture/equation is also understood.

And that brings us to today's, Israel/Palestinian issue - the reluctance of the Zionists to acknowledge a sovereign Palestine. and the Zionist policy of continuous suppression of Palestinian refugees, murdering and killing them and robbing their remaining lands. Whilst japing and whining about Palestinian retaliation, that results in murdered and killed Jewish people. = aka Zionists = HYPOCRITES.

All that bullshit and fact remains Jesus was born and died a Zionist Jew in Israel / Judea. No such thing as Palestine back then. Seems like this fact is upsetting to you and the IslamoNazis you service regularly.

 

[Kruska]

Great news for you. When this war is over the Palestinians sure will have self determination free from Israel. Thank God.

That IMO - depends entirely onto the USA's willingness to support the Zionist policy - whilst facing to further lose their credibility towards the rest of the world.

 

[Kruska]

Even if there is someday an independent (demilitarized) Palestine, it will be like all the other Arab nations: a dictatorship run by the corrupt elite.

Those folks, lovely as they are, simply are incapable of democracy. (Same for Africa.)

I disagree to a point - Lebanon was a well working democracy, before the influx of Palestinian refugees, the attack by Israel and the founding of Hezbollah, totally destroyed that country. - as such all relates back to Israel.

As for today's Palestinians it is impossible for me to judge - the "original" Palestinians - same people as the Lebanese, cultured and Western inspired - have intermarried to a large extend with Non-Palestinians since 1948 - thus resulting into a majority that isn't Western oriented anymore. But rather Arabs, full with hate and inspired with Islamic radical thoughts - again thanks to Israel.