When will we put LGBTQ issues behind us.?

[martybegan]

I agree to that. With the EXCEPTION that transgender requires MORE than a simple "wake up in the morning after 30 yrs and declare yourself one".. Not gonna argue about class membership for gays. Too complex. But as I said BI-sexual is almost TOTALLY a self-declaration and a choice.

My only reason for being here --- is that I HATE when folks (on either side) lump all of these "issues" together",.
You will not get solutions or changes that way...

And so what? If a person wants to be or chooses to be a bisexual, why is that a problem for anyone else?

it's a problem when they try to get a political or economic edge out of it, and when they try to force everyone to hold hands and proclaim "just like us!!!"

I don't think wanting to be treated equally is getting an "edge." Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

Except bake a cake someone doesn't want to bake.

You can say the force is acceptable, or even moral, but you can't deny the force is there and being used. Laws are force backed up by government's ability to punish you.

stop whining, marty

jim crow is dead

Where have I ever posted that I wanted Jim Crow back?

Prove it, or delete your post.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

The bigots on this board are a dying breed! You do not have many allies left.

http://www.hrc.org/blog/politicians-across-country-respond-to-north-carolinas-anti-lgbt-law-with-me

Since Governor Pat McCrory and the North Carolina General Assembly passed the deeply discriminatory HB 2 last week, leaders across the country have demonstrated that their states are open for business and support full LGBT equality.

Connecticut Governor Dannel Malloy welcomed and urged North Carolina businesses to move to the Constitution State, which has a fully inclusive state non-discrimination law.

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, Vermont Governor Peter Shumlin and Washington Governor Jay Inslee have banned non-essential state travel to North Carolina by state workers.

Additionally, Seattle Mayor Ed Murray, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio, San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee and the Portland City Council and Boston City Council took similar steps to ban non-essential travel.

It’s not just elected officials that are speaking up. This week, HRC and Equality NC announced that more than 100 leading CEOs and business leaders signed onto an open letter calling on Governor Pat McCrory and the North Carolina General Assembly to repeal these dangerous provisions.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

I don't think wanting to be treated equally is getting an "edge." Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

Except bake a cake someone doesn't want to bake.

You can say the force is acceptable, or even moral, but you can't deny the force is there and being used. Laws are force backed up by government's ability to punish you.

If you cannot stand to serve certain "groups" of people who are citizens of the US, then you have no business opening a business. That's all there is to it. You need to be able to separate business from personal dealings. If you cannot do that, that is your own problem.

Why? If there is no actual harm, if there are equivalent services easily available, does a person have to decide between their desired livelihood and broaching their own moral code? So what you are saying, in the absence of actual harm, one side (the side you like) gets what they want, and the other (the side you don't like) has to suck it up?

Why does government get to pick who's feelings are more important?

That's right big guy! Suck it up .Of course there is harm! Geeze! Discrimination is harm! Discrimination is wrong and discrimination in the name of some made up religious liberty excrement is wrong, stupid and dishonest. Moral code my ass!

I've had enough of your 'fag' bullshit!
Mankind evolved because their were/are males and females as in every other fucking species.
If some 'male' hadn't fucked some 'female' you wouldn't be here.
There is a natural revulsion in our DNA to see two of the same species attempt to fuck each other. For what purpose??????
If you like getting your asshole fucked by another male that's up to you.
Or sucking another mans cock that's up to you.
I think the US population has gone about as far as they are willing to go accommodating you fags.
Be VERY careful. Keep sticking your fag demands in other people's faces too much and you may well be very sorry.
The pendulum is always swinging.

I can see that you have a deeply spiritual side that is affected by this issue. Some of the other homophobes are just bigots.

 

[Iceweasel]

Ah the way it should be!! I see, so if you have a lunch counter you should be able to refuse to serve a black or a Muslim. Got ya!! As far as boycotts go, I really don't know where you're going with that. It has noting to do with anything that has been going on here. It's just another one of your logical fallacies ....this time a red herring.

That's a bad analogy. If someone says no to a black man due to his race that isn't the same as saying no to making a same sex anything. Who turns people away because it's two guys or gals together?

 

[dblack]

Of course you don’t see it in what he is writing. You don’t see it in your own writing. You don’t want to see it or your just being dishonest. I keep hearing this crap that “None of us has a right to be treated in any particular way by anyone else” but where exactly is that coming from?

It's coming from the basic concept of rights. A right is a freedom to act on your own, not the power to force others to serve you.

Of course people have a right to be treated equally! If they didn’t, it would open the door to all sorts of discrimination -AS I HAVE PREVIOUSLY POINTED OUT.

Really? So does a shop offering a senior citizen discount violate your rights? If a shop owner gives a good friend a discount - or even free service - is that violating your so-called 'right' to equal treatment?

Somewhere along the line we've confused equal treatment under the law with equal treatment by everyone else. And what you don't get is that those two approaches contradict each other.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

If you cannot stand to serve certain "groups" of people who are citizens of the US, then you have no business opening a business. That's all there is to it. You need to be able to separate business from personal dealings. If you cannot do that, that is your own problem.

Why? If there is no actual harm, if there are equivalent services easily available, does a person have to decide between their desired livelihood and broaching their own moral code? So what you are saying, in the absence of actual harm, one side (the side you like) gets what they want, and the other (the side you don't like) has to suck it up?

Why does government get to pick who's feelings are more important?

Discrimination has been determined to be a harmful business practice. Your "moral code" applies to your own personal dealings and not business dealings.

Again, why, and more importantly, determined by who? The actual harm in previous instances, i.e. Jim Crow was the economic and political surpression, the discrimination at the point of sale was a symptom, not a cause.

Where is the harm to these couples? You don't seem to be able to answer that.

Who says a moral code doesn't apply to business dealings? Where is that written?

It is interesting and telling that just about every anti gay bigot that I ever came across claims to not be a racist and decries Jim Crow laws. I don't doubt that many of them would be directing their wrath at blacks even now had it not become relatively unacceptable. Haters have to hate and gays and Muslims have become the target of convenience.

if you have read my posts, you would know I support legislative action to make marriage cover gays (just not judicial action) and have stated that I have no desire or need to discriminate against anyone.

My issue is I don't see government as a good tool to decide who's hurt feelings deserve protection, and who's hurt feelings deserve punishment.

Legislative action? So you would be willing to let gays wait another 200 years for some states to get to that point? If you were truly committed to equality, you would acknowledge the fact whether we are talking about marriage or discrimination by businesses, the government is the only protection that people have, and when the executive/ legislative branches do not act, the judiciary must.

 

[flacaltenn]

You're the one with the big hips. TRANS-gendered implies actively seeking REASSIGNMENT. Change of physical/societal/relationship factors. Not just waking up with an idea for a decrepit Reality Show and feeling like dressing like a woman. CALL ME if Bruce gets hot and sweaty with a male or has his hormone shots upped or chops his genitals..

I agree, some people would do just about ANYTHING to get attention. Sad, really. Some people might also just be confused. I can't say that I really understand the transgendered, and I can't help but to think it is a type of mental disorder. I suppose, in that case, they deserve sympathy.

I really don't know what to say about the "bathroom issues." I don't know the answer to that problem.

Almost certainly, out of all of those alphabet causes, transgender does USUALLY have a pretty clear medical/biological footprint. It really is a MEDICAL issue. I TOTALLY believe that some folks NEED gender reassignment. It is nowhere the Q's or it's got NOTHING to do with transvestites.

I don't know if it's a real medical issue or something wrong with them mentally. I don't think anyone really knows for sure.

I'd show you pictures -- but I'd have to check which forum we're in. Even in cases where it's not obvious in a photo or lab test -- there are biological/psychology reasons. And I don't mean "crazy" or mental..

Check it out. Folks are born or grow up with distinct biological reasons for wanting gender assignment..

Show pictures of what? A feminine looking man? A manly looking woman? That doesn't prove anything. There are plenty of feminine looking men who are straight and manly looking women who are straight, so I don't get your point with the pictures thingy.

You really need to research gender reassignment and how doctors MAKE those decisions to perform procedures. I'm not going into the graphics and the details. Got very little to do with their general "looks". Although that might be a small part of it. It's ONE case where there is specific evidence for that declaration..

Here's a start.. WE KNOW the medical/biological basis for gender ambiguities. Maybe we're not smart enough yet to detect the majority of them..


Disorders of sex development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Disorders of sex development (DSD), sometimes referred to as disorders of sex differentiation or differences of sex development,[1] are medical conditions involving the reproductive system. More specifically, these terms refer to "congenital conditions in which development of chromosomal, gonadal, or anatomical sex is atypical."[2] The term has been controversial; the World Health Organization and many medical journals still reference DSDs as intersex traits or conditions.[3] The Council of Europe,[4] and Inter-American Commission on Human Rights[5] have called for a review of medical classifications that unnecessarily medicalize intersex traits

The most common DSD is Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH), which results in a person with female (XX) chromosomes having genitals that look somewhat masculine. In mild cases CAH results in a slightly enlarged clitoris, while in more severe cases it can be difficult to decide (just by looking) whether a baby is male or female (this is called having ambiguous genitals). Nevertheless, if they are old enough to know the difference, most children with CAH think of themselves as girls. CAH is caused by a problem with the adrenal glands and is usually treated by taking a daily medication to replace or supplement the missing adrenal hormones. (When this adrenal problem occurs in people with male (XY) chromosomes, the result is over-masculinization and premature puberty).

Another common DSD is Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS), which means that a person with male (XY) chromosomes does not respond to testosterone in the usual way. This results in a body that to some degree has a feminine appearance. In Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) the result is a totally feminine appearance, including typical female breast development. Consequently, most young women with CAIS are unaware of their condition until the early teen years when they fail to menstruate. In the milder form, called Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (PAIS), the genitals can vary from mostly female to almost completely male. Some people with PAIS think of themselves as girls/women, others regard themselves as boys/men, and some consider themselves mixed-gender. Some people with PAIS take hormones and/or undergo surgery to give the genitals a more ordinary appearance. In the past such surgeries were often performed in infancy, but in recent years the tendency has been to postpone surgery until the child has expressed a clear gender preference and is old enough to participate actively in decisions about his/her medical treatment.


No pictures please..

 

[flacaltenn]

Pedophiles are totally convinced that there is no victim. That the little ones are willing and ready for "relationships". Pedos don't even have to sexually ACT on their impulses. They can just be abnormally "attracted to" children.. That argument (EXCUSE) has been made REPEATEDLY in the media. Were several Atlantic or Slate pieces on "harmless" pedophiles as an attempt to classify it not as a crime --- but as just an unfortunate "habit"..

All that probably is true for a large portion of folks suffering from this "deviation"..

The only way you BECOME discriminatory is because of law. Either the ABSENCE of law or the laws purposed to a particular class. We need to be MORE careful about WHO is IN that class and what side effects might occur..

It's easy to "separate" them. Those that are harming others and those who are not. Adult gay people are not harming anyone. Two consenting adults of the same sex are not harming anyone. A transgendered person is also not "harming" anyone (except for maybe him or herself).

I agree to that. With the EXCEPTION that transgender requires MORE than a simple "wake up in the morning after 30 yrs and declare yourself one".. Not gonna argue about class membership for gays. Too complex. But as I said BI-sexual is almost TOTALLY a self-declaration and a choice.

My only reason for being here --- is that I HATE when folks (on either side) lump all of these "issues" together",.
You will not get solutions or changes that way...

And so what? If a person wants to be or chooses to be a bisexual, why is that a problem for anyone else?

it's a problem when they try to get a political or economic edge out of it, and when they try to force everyone to hold hands and proclaim "just like us!!!"

I don't think wanting to be treated equally is getting an "edge." Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

You mean like being forced to cater Gay events? That's not force? Or driving folks out of biz because they won't hire a tranny (real or fake) ?? You saying nothing like that is or will be happening?

 

[flacaltenn]

The bigots on this board are a dying breed! You do not have many allies left.

http://www.hrc.org/blog/politicians-across-country-respond-to-north-carolinas-anti-lgbt-law-with-me

Since Governor Pat McCrory and the North Carolina General Assembly passed the deeply discriminatory HB 2 last week, leaders across the country have demonstrated that their states are open for business and support full LGBT equality.

Connecticut Governor Dannel Malloy welcomed and urged North Carolina businesses to move to the Constitution State, which has a fully inclusive state non-discrimination law.

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, Vermont Governor Peter Shumlin and Washington Governor Jay Inslee have banned non-essential state travel to North Carolina by state workers.

Additionally, Seattle Mayor Ed Murray, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio, San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee and the Portland City Council and Boston City Council took similar steps to ban non-essential travel.

It’s not just elected officials that are speaking up. This week, HRC and Equality NC announced that more than 100 leading CEOs and business leaders signed onto an open letter calling on Governor Pat McCrory and the North Carolina General Assembly to repeal these dangerous provisions.

If you're including me as one of those bigots, because I attacked your simplistic lumping of all these causes -- you just made a 2nd mistake to show that you really don't understand the uniqueness and complexity of each of these different "orientations" that you're marching for..

 

[flacaltenn]

I agree to that. With the EXCEPTION that transgender requires MORE than a simple "wake up in the morning after 30 yrs and declare yourself one".. Not gonna argue about class membership for gays. Too complex. But as I said BI-sexual is almost TOTALLY a self-declaration and a choice.

My only reason for being here --- is that I HATE when folks (on either side) lump all of these "issues" together",.
You will not get solutions or changes that way...

And so what? If a person wants to be or chooses to be a bisexual, why is that a problem for anyone else?

it's a problem when they try to get a political or economic edge out of it, and when they try to force everyone to hold hands and proclaim "just like us!!!"

I don't think wanting to be treated equally is getting an "edge." Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

Except bake a cake someone doesn't want to bake.

You can say the force is acceptable, or even moral, but you can't deny the force is there and being used. Laws are force backed up by government's ability to punish you.

If you cannot stand to serve certain "groups" of people who are citizens of the US, then you have no business opening a business. That's all there is to it. You need to be able to separate business from personal dealings. If you cannot do that, that is your own problem.

But you are gonna force me to hire a tranny as a hostess.. Right??

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

The bigots on this board are a dying breed! You do not have many allies left.

http://www.hrc.org/blog/politicians-across-country-respond-to-north-carolinas-anti-lgbt-law-with-me

Since Governor Pat McCrory and the North Carolina General Assembly passed the deeply discriminatory HB 2 last week, leaders across the country have demonstrated that their states are open for business and support full LGBT equality.

Connecticut Governor Dannel Malloy welcomed and urged North Carolina businesses to move to the Constitution State, which has a fully inclusive state non-discrimination law.

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, Vermont Governor Peter Shumlin and Washington Governor Jay Inslee have banned non-essential state travel to North Carolina by state workers.

Additionally, Seattle Mayor Ed Murray, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio, San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee and the Portland City Council and Boston City Council took similar steps to ban non-essential travel.

It’s not just elected officials that are speaking up. This week, HRC and Equality NC announced that more than 100 leading CEOs and business leaders signed onto an open letter calling on Governor Pat McCrory and the North Carolina General Assembly to repeal these dangerous provisions.

If you're including me as one of those bigots, because I attacked your simplistic lumping of all these causes -- you just made a 2nd mistake to show that you really don't understand the uniqueness and complexity of each of these different "orientations" that you're marching for..

First of all, I was not singling out anyone. Those who this applies to know who they are. Secondly, I fully explained the rational for " lumping together " the various aspects and manifestations of "LGBT" under certain, specific circumstances. So chill!

 

[rcfieldz]

It gets weirder...
I'm Not Male. I'm Not Female. Please Don't Ask Me About My Junk.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

That's probably where we disagree. I believe that there are legitimate biological/psychological transgenders. They are probably minority of the "self-declared" ones. And that's a MEDICAL issue -- not a political/religious/moral one.

I don't agree.

Wit the exception of some extremely rare genetic and hormonal disorders, every human being is unambiguously male or female. It's a matter of genetics and physiological dimorphism. If you have XY chromosomes, and were born with “boy parts”, then you're male. If you have XX chromosomes and were born with “girl parts”, then you're female. It's not a matter of how one “feels” or “identifies”; it's a matter of unalterable and undeniable biological reality.

Transgenderism is purely a psychiatric issue, a matter of someone denying what any sane person can observe to be an obvious reality.

You seem to be confusing it with those rare genetic and hormonal defects—collectively known as “intersex”—which result in human beings who genuinely do not fit the criteria of being purely male or purely female. That's a completely different issue, unrelated to transgenderism.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

It gets weirder...
I'm Not Male. I'm Not Female. Please Don't Ask Me About My Junk.

So what exactly is your point with this other than to disparage those who you have little understanding of and less desire to learn about. How does this relate to the topic of this thread which is DISCRININATION.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

After awhile -- you run out of letters and "definitions" and we'll see polyamorists fighting with pedophiles for rights to the LETTER P and their color choice in the Rainbow Gay Flag..

Just let it stand for Perverts, and then you can cover the whole sick bunch of them with only one letter.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

That's probably where we disagree. I believe that there are legitimate biological/psychological transgenders. They are probably minority of the "self-declared" ones. And that's a MEDICAL issue -- not a political/religious/moral one.

I don't agree.

Wit the exception of some extremely rare genetic and hormonal disorders, every human being is unambiguously male or female. It's a matter of genetics and physiological dimorphism. If you have XY chromosomes, and were born with “boy parts”, then you're male. If you have XX chromosomes and were born with “girl parts”, then you're female. It's not a matter of how one “feels” or “identifies”; it's a matter of unalterable and undeniable biological reality.

Transgenderism is purely a psychiatric issue, a matter of someone denying what any sane person can observe to be an obvious reality.

You seem to be confusing it with those rare genetic and hormonal defects—collectively known as “intersex”—which result in human beings who genuinely do not fit the criteria of being purely male or purely female. That's a completely different issue, unrelated to transgenderism.

You are ignorantly confusing two separate although related issues- Transsexuality and intersexuality- and presenting your misguide opinion as informed fact which cant be farther from reality

Intersexuality: Intersex Society of North America | A world free of shame, secrecy, and unwanted genital surgery

Transsexuality: Theories of the Causes of Transsexualism

Please educate yourself before continuing to bloviate about something that you know little about. You're just showing your ignorance and embarrassing yourself.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Okay, I can agree that some seem to want to accept everything as being just a "variation of normal" but even if you think it is a mental illness or whatever, does that give people a "right" to be discriminatory?

If refusing to play along with obvious insanity is “discriminatory”, then I cannot see what is wrong with being “discriminatory”.

If a man wants to claim to be a woman, perhaps that's his right, but I'm under no obligation to agree, and he sure as hell better not be caught in a women's restroom or dressing facility while my wife or my sister or my mother is using that facility.

If two men want to pretend that they are getting “married”, perhaps that's their right, but as a sane person, I am under no obligation to recognize that sick mockery as being in any way comparable to a genuine marriage, and I certainly am not going to willingly participate in it or give any support to it.

Forcing sane people to play along with the delusions of those who are insane is not, and never will be, a valid way to treat those who are mentally-ill.

 

[TheProgressivePatriot]

My posts are more referring to gay rights than transgender anyways. I really don't understand transgender at all, but I do know some very nice gay people who are just regular people and who just want to be able to go to the store and do their shopping in peace and not be discriminated against. They go to work every day, like anyone else. They are tired at the end of their day and don't want to have to drive 40 miles to go to the "Gay Mart" to do their shopping. Is that unreasonable?

That's my point. I'm only in the thread because the OP made a SPECIFIC POINT of lumping all those causes together like they are one quicky solution.. . Folks who do that -- cannot possibly have an appreciation of WHY there is push-back or dissent or lack of progress.

Lumping them all together CONSTANTLY in the media and politics does a disservice to some of the more legitimate causes. And encourages EVERY deviation from the norm to join the fray..

After awhile -- you run out of letters and "definitions" and we'll see polyamorists fighting with pedophiles for rights to the LETTER P and their color choice in the Rainbow Gay Flag..

The thread that I started is supposed to be about discriminatory state laws, but thanks to you and others it has been hopelessly dragged into the gutter of inanity with stupid shit like this.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I really don't know what to say about the "bathroom issues." I don't know the answer to that problem.

What's so hard about that?

If you have XY chromosomes and were born with “boy parts”, then you're male, and you use the men's facilities.

If you have XX chromosomes and were born with “girl parts”, then you're female, and you use the women's facilities.

If you're so degenerate that you cannot restrain yourself from trying to impersonate the opposite of your actual biological sex, then that's your problem. Don't force it on others.

 

[Katzndogz]

Right now, gay is the flavor of the month. Humans will not subject themselves to aberrations for long. Until then, the law can only go so far. It cannot make anyone be your friend, be nice or even be courteous.