Where do moral laws come from?

[ding]

You claim that successful behaviors don't lead to success, right?

Here is the problem as I see it... you're now trying to somehow equate "successful behavior" with this "universal morality" you claimed. There is no correlation. Successful behavior doesn't have to be necessarily moral. Moral behavior doesn't have to necessarily be successful. A drug lord can be all kinds of successful but what he does is highly immoral.

So, allow me to try and help your OP argument a little here.... I've been critical because I think you're not actually articulating this the right way. What you are trying to get across is not necessarily wrong it's just not as you've tried to convey it.

I am a Spiritualist. I don't belong to a religion, I don't believe in any organized religious incarnation of God. I do believe in God but my interpretation of God is Spiritual Energy. This is an unseen natural force coursing through our universe of physical reality. It is essentially what directs humans toward good and away from evil.... toward the light and away from the dark. Did it "exist" before time and space? It's inconsequential because it applies to physical reality within time and space.... it doesn't matter if it did or didn't exist. The SOURCE is Spiritual Energy and the cool thing about that is, it CAN exist beyond and before the physical... in fact, I believe that's what created the physical.

Morals are simply rules established by man, usually through spiritual understanding. There is no "universal morality" because man is flawed and incapable of establishing such a thing. Truth is never known.... we can't KNOW anything absolutely... we're humans. We can believe we know and that is all. Billy Graham certainly believes he is going to heaven... BUT... until he dies and actually goes there, he doesn't KNOW.

Yes, I am. Take any virtue you want and compare it to its antithesis and you should be able to understand what I am saying.

Two honest people will always have a better relationship than two dishonest people. Not some of the time, all of the time. We could down the list if you like; thankfulness, kindness, generosity, humility, forgiveness, etc. These values bring peace and harmony to lives and success naturally follows. The antithesis of these values wreaks havoc and chaos in lives and failure naturally follows.

 

[ding]

Sure, did you find anything that was inaccurate in the specific link I provided?

The fact is that wikipedia is open sourced and only as good as the last guy that dicked around with it. Only fools use it for anything serious.

No. Only fools dismiss information without vetting information. You must be one of those guys who throw babies out with bathwater instead of just draining the bathwater.

Only fools use open sourced information. ESPECIALLY when it comes to something like morality. You can't even begin to back up your wild claims.

I didn't use it for morality and I have backed up everything I have said. What is it that you believe I have not backed up?

You have yet to back up your OP

It is pure fantasy

I disagree I believe I have been doing it the whole time.

Do you believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes? I don't. Do you believe that honesty and dishonesty lead to equal outcomes? Do you believe that being thankful and being thankless lead to the same outcomes? Surely you understand what I am saying, right? Are you letting your pride get in the way of seeing objective truth?

 

[rightwinger]

The fact is that wikipedia is open sourced and only as good as the last guy that dicked around with it. Only fools use it for anything serious.

No. Only fools dismiss information without vetting information. You must be one of those guys who throw babies out with bathwater instead of just draining the bathwater.

Only fools use open sourced information. ESPECIALLY when it comes to something like morality. You can't even begin to back up your wild claims.

I didn't use it for morality and I have backed up everything I have said. What is it that you believe I have not backed up?

You have yet to back up your OP

It is pure fantasy

I disagree I believe I have been doing it the whole time.

Do you believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes? I don't. Do you believe that honesty and dishonesty lead to equal outcomes? Do you believe that being thankful and being thankless lead to the same outcomes? Surely you understand what I am saying, right? Are you letting your pride get in the way of seeing objective truth?

Who ever claimed equal outcomes?

Life is not like that

 

[ding]

I usually snicker when information is wrong, was there anything inaccurate or did you just make a summary judgement without any facts?

The fact is that wikipedia is open sourced and only as good as the last guy that dicked around with it. Only fools use it for anything serious.

Sure, did you find anything that was inaccurate in the specific link I provided?

The fact is that wikipedia is open sourced and only as good as the last guy that dicked around with it. Only fools use it for anything serious.

No. Only fools dismiss information without vetting information. You must be one of those guys who throw babies out with bathwater instead of just draining the bathwater.

Only fools use open sourced information. ESPECIALLY when it comes to something like morality. You can't even begin to back up your wild claims.

Do you believe you have been successful? If so, why do you believe you have been successful? Is it because of luck? Did you cheat? Or was it something you did? The way you did it?

 

[ding]

No. Only fools dismiss information without vetting information. You must be one of those guys who throw babies out with bathwater instead of just draining the bathwater.

Only fools use open sourced information. ESPECIALLY when it comes to something like morality. You can't even begin to back up your wild claims.

I didn't use it for morality and I have backed up everything I have said. What is it that you believe I have not backed up?

You have yet to back up your OP

It is pure fantasy

I disagree I believe I have been doing it the whole time.

Do you believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes? I don't. Do you believe that honesty and dishonesty lead to equal outcomes? Do you believe that being thankful and being thankless lead to the same outcomes? Surely you understand what I am saying, right? Are you letting your pride get in the way of seeing objective truth?

Who ever claimed equal outcomes?

Life is not like that

Many progressives believe that all behaviors should lead to equal outcomes. Are you telling me that you don't believe that? If so, can you tell me why not all behavior lead to equal outcomes?

 

[rightwinger]

Only fools use open sourced information. ESPECIALLY when it comes to something like morality. You can't even begin to back up your wild claims.

I didn't use it for morality and I have backed up everything I have said. What is it that you believe I have not backed up?

You have yet to back up your OP

It is pure fantasy

I disagree I believe I have been doing it the whole time.

Do you believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes? I don't. Do you believe that honesty and dishonesty lead to equal outcomes? Do you believe that being thankful and being thankless lead to the same outcomes? Surely you understand what I am saying, right? Are you letting your pride get in the way of seeing objective truth?

Who ever claimed equal outcomes?

Life is not like that

Many progressives believe that all behaviors should lead to equal outcomes. Are you telling me that you don't believe that? If so, can you tell me why not all behavior lead to equal outcomes?

No idea what you are talking about

Show anyone, progressive or conservative who believes all behaviors should result in equal outcomes

Life is a crap shoot......you can't expect the same result every time

 

[ding]

I didn't use it for morality and I have backed up everything I have said. What is it that you believe I have not backed up?

You have yet to back up your OP

It is pure fantasy

I disagree I believe I have been doing it the whole time.

Do you believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes? I don't. Do you believe that honesty and dishonesty lead to equal outcomes? Do you believe that being thankful and being thankless lead to the same outcomes? Surely you understand what I am saying, right? Are you letting your pride get in the way of seeing objective truth?

Who ever claimed equal outcomes?

Life is not like that

Many progressives believe that all behaviors should lead to equal outcomes. Are you telling me that you don't believe that? If so, can you tell me why not all behavior lead to equal outcomes?

No idea what you are talking about

Show anyone, progressive or conservative who believes all behaviors should result in equal outcomes

Life is a crap shoot......you can't expect the same result every time

I'm not talking about the same behavior. I am talking about diametrically opposed behaviors. I assumed that you were intelligent enough to know that. My bad. Do you believe that diametrically opposed behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

 

[rightwinger]

You have yet to back up your OP

It is pure fantasy

I disagree I believe I have been doing it the whole time.

Do you believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes? I don't. Do you believe that honesty and dishonesty lead to equal outcomes? Do you believe that being thankful and being thankless lead to the same outcomes? Surely you understand what I am saying, right? Are you letting your pride get in the way of seeing objective truth?

Who ever claimed equal outcomes?

Life is not like that

Many progressives believe that all behaviors should lead to equal outcomes. Are you telling me that you don't believe that? If so, can you tell me why not all behavior lead to equal outcomes?

No idea what you are talking about

Show anyone, progressive or conservative who believes all behaviors should result in equal outcomes

Life is a crap shoot......you can't expect the same result every time

I'm not talking about the same behavior. I am talking about diametrically opposed behaviors. I assumed that you were intelligent enough to know that. My bad. Do you believe that diametrically opposed behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

You get more bizarre with each post

Now you are claiming that diametrically opposed behaviors should yield the same result? That makes absolutely no sense

 

[ding]

I disagree I believe I have been doing it the whole time.

Do you believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes? I don't. Do you believe that honesty and dishonesty lead to equal outcomes? Do you believe that being thankful and being thankless lead to the same outcomes? Surely you understand what I am saying, right? Are you letting your pride get in the way of seeing objective truth?

Who ever claimed equal outcomes?

Life is not like that

Many progressives believe that all behaviors should lead to equal outcomes. Are you telling me that you don't believe that? If so, can you tell me why not all behavior lead to equal outcomes?

No idea what you are talking about

Show anyone, progressive or conservative who believes all behaviors should result in equal outcomes

Life is a crap shoot......you can't expect the same result every time

I'm not talking about the same behavior. I am talking about diametrically opposed behaviors. I assumed that you were intelligent enough to know that. My bad. Do you believe that diametrically opposed behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

You get more bizarre with each post

Now you are claiming that diametrically opposed behaviors should yield the same result? That makes absolutely no sense

No. I am asking you if you believe that. I should have dumbed that down for you. My bad.

 

[rightwinger]

Who ever claimed equal outcomes?

Life is not like that

Many progressives believe that all behaviors should lead to equal outcomes. Are you telling me that you don't believe that? If so, can you tell me why not all behavior lead to equal outcomes?

No idea what you are talking about

Show anyone, progressive or conservative who believes all behaviors should result in equal outcomes

Life is a crap shoot......you can't expect the same result every time

I'm not talking about the same behavior. I am talking about diametrically opposed behaviors. I assumed that you were intelligent enough to know that. My bad. Do you believe that diametrically opposed behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

You get more bizarre with each post

Now you are claiming that diametrically opposed behaviors should yield the same result? That makes absolutely no sense

No. I am asking you if you believe that. I should have dumbed that down for you. My bad.

Why would anyone believe that?

 

[ding]

Many progressives believe that all behaviors should lead to equal outcomes. Are you telling me that you don't believe that? If so, can you tell me why not all behavior lead to equal outcomes?

No idea what you are talking about

Show anyone, progressive or conservative who believes all behaviors should result in equal outcomes

Life is a crap shoot......you can't expect the same result every time

I'm not talking about the same behavior. I am talking about diametrically opposed behaviors. I assumed that you were intelligent enough to know that. My bad. Do you believe that diametrically opposed behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

You get more bizarre with each post

Now you are claiming that diametrically opposed behaviors should yield the same result? That makes absolutely no sense

No. I am asking you if you believe that. I should have dumbed that down for you. My bad.

Why would anyone believe that?

Progressives do. And apparently you do too as you have been arguing that this entire thread.

 

[rightwinger]

No idea what you are talking about

Show anyone, progressive or conservative who believes all behaviors should result in equal outcomes

Life is a crap shoot......you can't expect the same result every time

I'm not talking about the same behavior. I am talking about diametrically opposed behaviors. I assumed that you were intelligent enough to know that. My bad. Do you believe that diametrically opposed behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

You get more bizarre with each post

Now you are claiming that diametrically opposed behaviors should yield the same result? That makes absolutely no sense

No. I am asking you if you believe that. I should have dumbed that down for you. My bad.

Why would anyone believe that?

Progressives do. And apparently you do too as you have been arguing that this entire thread.

Show me

 

[ding]

I'm not talking about the same behavior. I am talking about diametrically opposed behaviors. I assumed that you were intelligent enough to know that. My bad. Do you believe that diametrically opposed behaviors lead to equal outcomes?

You get more bizarre with each post

Now you are claiming that diametrically opposed behaviors should yield the same result? That makes absolutely no sense

No. I am asking you if you believe that. I should have dumbed that down for you. My bad.

Why would anyone believe that?

Progressives do. And apparently you do too as you have been arguing that this entire thread.

Show me

You don't believe in absolute moral behavior do you? There is your proof.

 

[rightwinger]

You get more bizarre with each post

Now you are claiming that diametrically opposed behaviors should yield the same result? That makes absolutely no sense

No. I am asking you if you believe that. I should have dumbed that down for you. My bad.

Why would anyone believe that?

Progressives do. And apparently you do too as you have been arguing that this entire thread.

Show me

You don't believe in absolute moral behavior do you? There is your proof.

Show me a progressive who has made that claim

 

[ding]

 

[ding]

No. I am asking you if you believe that. I should have dumbed that down for you. My bad.

Why would anyone believe that?

Progressives do. And apparently you do too as you have been arguing that this entire thread.

Show me

You don't believe in absolute moral behavior do you? There is your proof.

Show me a progressive who has made that claim

You have. You believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. All behaviors can be any behavior, even those that are diametrically opposed. Such as humility and arrogance; forgiveness and vindictiveness; thankfulness and thanklessness.

Are you now admitting that humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

 

[rightwinger]

Why would anyone believe that?

Progressives do. And apparently you do too as you have been arguing that this entire thread.

Show me

You don't believe in absolute moral behavior do you? There is your proof.

Show me a progressive who has made that claim

You have. You believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. All behaviors can be any behavior, even those that are diametrically opposed. Such as humility and arrogance; forgiveness and vindictiveness; thankfulness and thanklessness.

Are you now admitting that humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

Show me where I have ever made such a statement

 

[ding]

Progressives do. And apparently you do too as you have been arguing that this entire thread.

Show me

You don't believe in absolute moral behavior do you? There is your proof.

Show me a progressive who has made that claim

You have. You believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. All behaviors can be any behavior, even those that are diametrically opposed. Such as humility and arrogance; forgiveness and vindictiveness; thankfulness and thanklessness.

Are you now admitting that humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

Show me where I have ever made such a statement

In post #266. Are you now admitting that humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

 

[Boss]

You claim that successful behaviors don't lead to success, right?

Here is the problem as I see it... you're now trying to somehow equate "successful behavior" with this "universal morality" you claimed. There is no correlation. Successful behavior doesn't have to be necessarily moral. Moral behavior doesn't have to necessarily be successful. A drug lord can be all kinds of successful but what he does is highly immoral.

So, allow me to try and help your OP argument a little here.... I've been critical because I think you're not actually articulating this the right way. What you are trying to get across is not necessarily wrong it's just not as you've tried to convey it.

I am a Spiritualist. I don't belong to a religion, I don't believe in any organized religious incarnation of God. I do believe in God but my interpretation of God is Spiritual Energy. This is an unseen natural force coursing through our universe of physical reality. It is essentially what directs humans toward good and away from evil.... toward the light and away from the dark. Did it "exist" before time and space? It's inconsequential because it applies to physical reality within time and space.... it doesn't matter if it did or didn't exist. The SOURCE is Spiritual Energy and the cool thing about that is, it CAN exist beyond and before the physical... in fact, I believe that's what created the physical.

Morals are simply rules established by man, usually through spiritual understanding. There is no "universal morality" because man is flawed and incapable of establishing such a thing. Truth is never known.... we can't KNOW anything absolutely... we're humans. We can believe we know and that is all. Billy Graham certainly believes he is going to heaven... BUT... until he dies and actually goes there, he doesn't KNOW.

Yes, I am. Take any virtue you want and compare it to its antithesis and you should be able to understand what I am saying.

Two honest people will always have a better relationship than two dishonest people. Not some of the time, all of the time. We could down the list if you like; thankfulness, kindness, generosity, humility, forgiveness, etc. These values bring peace and harmony to lives and success naturally follows. The antithesis of these values wreaks havoc and chaos in lives and failure naturally follows.

Again, I understand what you are trying to say, I just disagree with the phraseology. Virtuousness, like morality, changes with time and culture. It has nothing to do with any "universal truth" and everything to do with man's definitions. Two honest people will NOT always have a better relationship because complete and unfettered honesty is sometimes very brutal and people can't handle it. All the things in your list of values are internal things that can't be measured by others. We don't have little bars above our heads to show how thankful we genuinely are, how much kindness is emanating or generosity being conveyed. People are disingenuous all the time. Sometimes, there are even people who convince themselves they are behaving according to these values when they are doing anything but.... a sociopath, for example. They may think they are the kindest, most generous, humble and thankful person on the planet while they're stealing your identity and draining your bank account. So, all these things are subjective values that are internalized and we have no way of measuring them in a physical way. If we cannot measure them, there is no way of determining how much they have an effect on failure or success in any given case. We can assume things and we often do.

I agree with you in concept, I just think you are phrasing it incorrectly. I think there IS a universal spiritual course we are inclined toward that is positive as opposed to negative. But that is about as close as I can come to agreeing with what you've stated because man-made "morals and virtues" are sometimes misguided and incorrect. There is nothing universal about that, if there were, we could all recognize that and live in a perfect world. Obviously, we don't live in a perfect world.

 

[rightwinger]

Show me

You don't believe in absolute moral behavior do you? There is your proof.

Show me a progressive who has made that claim

You have. You believe that all behaviors lead to equal outcomes. All behaviors can be any behavior, even those that are diametrically opposed. Such as humility and arrogance; forgiveness and vindictiveness; thankfulness and thanklessness.

Are you now admitting that humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

Show me where I have ever made such a statement

In post #266. Are you now admitting that humility, forgiveness and thankfulness lead to better outcomes than arrogance, vindictiveness and thanklessness?

Have you always struggled with understanding context?