Which should have first priority: The woman, the fertilized egg, or the fetus?

[Soggy in NOLA]

The state doesn't participate in the child's creation.

The state has the obligation for the welfare of its citizens. Always.

except its unborn ones, right?

That is the choice of the the mother, not the state.

illogical argument. Either the unborn human being is a human being or it isn't. Tell us the exact moment when a fetus becomes a human being entitled to constitutional rights. Does it magically occur at 6 months, 9 months, the instant of birth, severing the umbilical cord?

Your deflection and failure is so noted here.

We are discussing whether if we force all women to carry the baby to birth, then what responsibility do we have for mother and baby.

None.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I wish more posters would vote in the poll. So far, only 8 have voted out of about 20 posters. It could be that some aren't sure how they really feel.

You don't have an option for how many people feel. Also, the fertilized egg and a fetus do not exist at the same time during a pregnancy as they are separate stages of a human life. Since they don't exist at the same time, there is no picking of one having priority over the other for the fertilized egg and the fetus.

I believe Lakhota is basically leaving the option of "No priority at THIS stage of development, but priority at THAT stage".

 

[Cecilie1200]

Without the woman, there wouldn't BE an egg or fetus.
Her body. Her choice.

No one's talking about her body. She can have an appendectomy any time she likes; I don't care. She can have a sex-change operation and it matters naught to me.

We're talking about a separate organism entirely.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Life begins at conception. If it begins it was God's will...and so the fertilized egg has first priority. If woman does not want the child...put it up for adoption.

What if the conception was because of rape? What if the mother's life is in danger? What if the mother is a teenager? What if the baby has major birth defects? Sorry there is a grey area!!!

No, there's no grey area for "but the circumstances are bad!" Life is life, and it either all matters, or it all doesn't. I can't kill YOU if I think the circumstances of your existence are bad.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The woman ONLY if the fertilized egg is killing her. Otherwise, the fertilized egg. Baby next. Humans are not fetuses during development. We are not apes.

You absolutely lost me on the last two sentences. Made no sense that I could glean.

If the unborn baby itself is endangering the woman's life, then it's highly unlikely he would survive, anyway (ectopic pregnancy, for example).

 

[Cecilie1200]

Life begins at conception. If it begins it was God's will...and so the fertilized egg has first priority. If woman does not want the child...put it up for adoption.

How do you explain a stillborn, a live child born and lives only a few days or weeks? Is this God's will? My guess is your answer will be the same. So, provide probative proof!

Taking that a step further, how do they explain spontaneous abortions, i.e. miscarriages? When I was in college I had a part-time job working in a pathology lab doing errands and clerical work. This lab received about 6-10 miscarried fetuses every single day ranging from 4-5 weeks to 7 months. So let's hear that shit about how God giveth and then he taketh away....[[[rolling eyes]]]

Postscript: I was in charge of putting up these contained fetuses for the histopathology by the doctors. Yes, the 6-7 month fetuses would break our hearts. The 4-5 week fetuses were very small, indistinguishable and the size of a large sesame seed. No one can tell me that takes precedent over a woman's choice. A woman can't even know for sure until that time.

How would you LIKE to explain it? Old people drop dead in job lots, but I'm pretty sure you don't think that justifies other people in stuffing a pillow over their faces.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I think this thread is predominantly inhabited by men. If there were more women on it there would be a preponderance of the woman's right to choose. Why do men want women to take all the responsibility? Do they think they are still living in caves?

I'M a woman, sweet cheeks, and I'm vehemently against killing children. How about you?

 

[JakeStarkey]

The state has the obligation for the welfare of its citizens. Always.

except its unborn ones, right?

That is the choice of the the mother, not the state.

illogical argument. Either the unborn human being is a human being or it isn't. Tell us the exact moment when a fetus becomes a human being entitled to constitutional rights. Does it magically occur at 6 months, 9 months, the instant of birth, severing the umbilical cord?

Your deflection and failure is so noted here.

We are discussing whether if we force all women to carry the baby to birth, then what responsibility do we have for mother and baby.

I guess I should apologize for not thanking you for the donation to raise my daughter when she was born.
Im sure you sent a rather substantial check.
Very rude of me.

I did not know you were an unwed pregnant mother to be. And if you were, what help did you get?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Should women have the final say in making laws that affect their reproductive rights - instead of mostly men making those decisions for them?

Society at large should have the final say in making laws that degrade the value society at large puts on human life. Society's interest in the death of unborn children is exactly the same interest it has in whether a woman kills her husband for the insurance money.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"saying, 'the fertilized egg or the fetus' is like saying, 'the toddler or the teenager'" is the silliest comment of the day so far.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Life begins at conception. If it begins it was God's will...and so the fertilized egg has first priority. If woman does not want the child...put it up for adoption.

Unless its cancer

Are you really ignorant enough to not know the difference between a fetus and a tumor? Damn, I hope you consult your doctor before so much as taking an aspirin, then, because you really should not be trusted with medical autonomy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Life begins at conception. If it begins it was God's will...and so the fertilized egg has first priority. If woman does not want the child...put it up for adoption.

Unless its cancer

Are you really ignorant enough to not know the difference between a fetus and a tumor? Damn, I hope you consult your doctor before so much as taking an aspirin, then, because you really should not be trusted with medical autonomy.

Cecilie1200, your opinion is your opinion, nothing more.

 

[Maryland Patriot]

except its unborn ones, right?

That is the choice of the the mother, not the state.

illogical argument. Either the unborn human being is a human being or it isn't. Tell us the exact moment when a fetus becomes a human being entitled to constitutional rights. Does it magically occur at 6 months, 9 months, the instant of birth, severing the umbilical cord?

Your deflection and failure is so noted here.

We are discussing whether if we force all women to carry the baby to birth, then what responsibility do we have for mother and baby.

I guess I should apologize for not thanking you for the donation to raise my daughter when she was born.
Im sure you sent a rather substantial check.
Very rude of me.

I did not know you were an unwed pregnant mother to be. And if you were, what help did you get?

what does that have to do with anything.
if you are going to pay for one child, you should pay for all. Its only fair. Now write the check.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That is the choice of the the mother, not the state.

illogical argument. Either the unborn human being is a human being or it isn't. Tell us the exact moment when a fetus becomes a human being entitled to constitutional rights. Does it magically occur at 6 months, 9 months, the instant of birth, severing the umbilical cord?

Your deflection and failure is so noted here.

We are discussing whether if we force all women to carry the baby to birth, then what responsibility do we have for mother and baby.

I guess I should apologize for not thanking you for the donation to raise my daughter when she was born.
Im sure you sent a rather substantial check.
Very rude of me.

I did not know you were an unwed pregnant mother to be. And if you were, what help did you get?

what does that have to do with anything.
if you are going to pay for one child, you should pay for all. Its only fair. Now write the check.

We all do, through our social contract. You do not get individually to decide as to who is worthy is the point. Hard for you.

 

[Maryland Patriot]

illogical argument. Either the unborn human being is a human being or it isn't. Tell us the exact moment when a fetus becomes a human being entitled to constitutional rights. Does it magically occur at 6 months, 9 months, the instant of birth, severing the umbilical cord?

Your deflection and failure is so noted here.

We are discussing whether if we force all women to carry the baby to birth, then what responsibility do we have for mother and baby.

I guess I should apologize for not thanking you for the donation to raise my daughter when she was born.
Im sure you sent a rather substantial check.
Very rude of me.

I did not know you were an unwed pregnant mother to be. And if you were, what help did you get?

what does that have to do with anything.
if you are going to pay for one child, you should pay for all. Its only fair. Now write the check.

We all do, through our social contract. You do not get individually to decide as to who is worthy is the point. Hard for you.

where does it say that in the constitution? and were is the social contract I signed or is this something you just made up.
as far as the responsibility? how about the responsibility was not exhibited when the mother spread her legs.
and lets face it, the number of pregnancies due to faulty birth control is very very minimal, the majority are from one night stands or just plain carelessness.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Your deflection and failure is so noted here.

We are discussing whether if we force all women to carry the baby to birth, then what responsibility do we have for mother and baby.

I guess I should apologize for not thanking you for the donation to raise my daughter when she was born.
Im sure you sent a rather substantial check.
Very rude of me.

I did not know you were an unwed pregnant mother to be. And if you were, what help did you get?

what does that have to do with anything.
if you are going to pay for one child, you should pay for all. Its only fair. Now write the check.

We all do, through our social contract. You do not get individually to decide as to who is worthy is the point. Hard for you.

where does it say that in the constitution? and were is the social contract I signed or is this something you just made up.
as far as the responsibility? how about the responsibility was not exhibited when the mother spread her legs.
and lets face it, the number of pregnancies due to faulty birth control is very very minimal, the majority are from one night stands or just plain carelessness.

You will have to take that up with the courts and our legislatures. Since you are neither expert nor authority on these issues, you have no right to demand anything of anybody on taking care of infants and mothers if we require birth instead of abortion. Once again your opinion is your opinion, your feelings. That means nothing in this OP.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Typical.
Abortion, like many controversial topics, are not black and white issues. As much as the activist fringe on both sides want it to be.

 

[Coyote]

Then use birth control, or don't have sex, it's really quite simple! You act like women are victims of pregnancy when they have total control over that, 100% complete and total control! Quit trying to portray women as stupid, helpless victims! Women are powerful, strong, intelligent, independant.... UNTIL they get pregnant, then all of a sudden they're a poor, helpless, victim and have the role of 'host' forced on them. So why don't you STFU and control your own damn body and quit whining like a helpless victim when you're anything but! If a woman gets pregnant, it's exactly because she didn't exert control over her own body, don't you dumbasses ever get it???

Both my kids were conceived while my wife was on her Birth control. I broke right through them. condoms break, Pills don't always work, and sometimes its just none of your damn business what a couple or woman decides to do.

No birth control is 100% effective, so no, women don't have 100% control by using birth control.

The majority of women who have abortions are married or in committed relationships. Do you think married women should deny their husbands sex to avoid pregnancy?

its about taking responsibility for your actions. If the condom breaks, have the child, then if you don't want it, give it up for adoption, don't kill it.

A condon IS taking responsibility for one's actions. Beyond using it correctly - what further responsibility should be required?

there is a degree of risk involved. when you slip it on you accept the risk that it may break. If it breaks, you should take responsibility for the results of your actions.

If you don't want any responsibility ever, don't have sex ever.

Taking responsibility includes having an abortion or taking a morning after pill.

 

[Coyote]

What are you talking about? I am saying if you are going to make women have babies regardless, then you got an obligation to the infant, podjo.

The state doesn't participate in the child's creation.

The state has the obligation for the welfare of its citizens. Always.

except its unborn ones, right?

That is the choice of the the mother, not the state.

illogical argument. Either the unborn human being is a human being or it isn't. Tell us the exact moment when a fetus becomes a human being entitled to constitutional rights. Does it magically occur at 6 months, 9 months, the instant of birth, severing the umbilical cord?

Birth.

 

[Coyote]

This is a sincere poll. I would appreciate honest answers. If you're willing, I would also appreciate your reasons. I will not criticize your choice. I would just honestly like to know where USMB posters stand on this issue.

First priority under what circumstance? If there's a circumstance where being pregnant is putting a woman's life a risk, most people on both sides of the debate can agree the woman's life is the first priority.

In other words, you don't believe the choice is totally up to the woman?

I'd say no more than we think the "choice" to kill any other human being resides solely with the killer-to-be.

Who has the right to force a woman to house a fetus in her body against her will?