Who are the Israelis?

[rylah]

View attachment 971715
In 1947 there were an estimated 630,000 Jews in Israel (or the region that became Israel). So once that state's existence was declared Arabs represented 60% of the population, therefore Israel was majority Arab at the time of its founding.

That all changed very quickly of course as 750,000 of those Arabs were ethnically cleansed from Israel.

Who's estimates?

Arabs came from the countries they expelled about a million Jews,
in attempt to eradicate the only nation independent from Arab imperialism.

A Muslim Aliyah Paralleled the Jewish Aliyah: Part I

Palestinians, in other words, are not an aboriginal, autochthonous, first, indigenous, or native people; most of them are as recently arrived as Zionists. They are also as ethnically diverse.

www.jewishpress.com

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Who's estimates?

See: Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia second paragraph. which references this archived article.

Arabs came from the countries they expelled about a million Jews,
in attempt to eradicate the only nation independent from Arab imperialism.

A Muslim Aliyah Paralleled the Jewish Aliyah: Part I

Palestinians, in other words, are not an aboriginal, autochthonous, first, indigenous, or native people; most of them are as recently arrived as Zionists. They are also as ethnically diverse.

www.jewishpress.com

 

[rosends]

You say "Israel was attacked in 1948".

Yes, are you arguing that historical truth?

Civil war broke out in Palestine BEFORE Israel existed. There was fear of and opposition to a foreign power (Britain with the UN) declaring some already heavily Arab populated territorial region to be a new Jewish country with Zionist ideals. In the eyes of the Arabs, Israel was not a legitimate entity, it was not recognized as such. That there would be war was known to all parties, it was expected and unavoidable given the racist ideology embraced by militant Zionism and the preceding years of Zionist terrorism in the region.

Ah, so the Arabs don't think Israel is legitimate (somehow, they don't say the same about Jordan though it was created by the same mandate...) So you invoke that phantom "racist ideology" concept to explain why it is OK that there was a riot in Chevron in 1929. It is almost like you want to ignore any year before, let's say, 1939

List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is disingenuous to claim "Israel was attacked in 1948" it is Zionist forces that were attacked,

You are making a distinction? That's bizarre. Israel is a country founded by Zionists.

the entire idea of forcibly choosing to draw a border enclosing 950,000 Arabs and naming it "Israel" and that new state then having a minority Jew supremacist government with an armed forces created from former terrorist groups, is insanity.

Which is why it makes no sense that the Arabs at the time rejected the offer of their own state to balance this out. But whatever...you seem to think that not liking something created by the ruling British power justifies murder.

So this was better described as an invasion and annexation of territory by a UN backed regime who then named it (incorrectly) "Israel" - it is that that was attacked.

So you blame the British (but not the Ottomans before that)?

Imagine an externally orchestrated mass immigration of say Yemenis taking place in some region in Canada, with the process managed by Islamist Yemeni fanatics. Then while that population grows, while it produces terrorist gangs and creates tension and fear within the already present population, China with UN draws a "border" around a strategic region centering on the Yemeni populated areas and names it "Yemenoza".

Then the UN declares a new state of Yemenoza has been created with that border, and the millions of Canadians that just happened to be unlucky and find themselves waking up in that new country. Then the surrounding areas react with violence and attack these invaders.

I for one, would not describe the hostile reaction to that invasion as "attacking Yemenoza".

when you start with false premises, you reach false conclusions. I hope this isn't news to you. You act like it would be. Sad.

 

[rylah]

See: Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia second paragraph. which references this archived article.

Arab citizens of Israel are also against Arab imperialism,

Jihadzeera just doesn't let you hear the normal ones.

Do you know how many Israeli Arabs were
murdered by Hamas on 7th Oct?

​

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Here's a documentary film created by two Israelis a film-maker and a historian on what actually happened in 1948.

 

[rylah]

Here's a documentary film created by two Israelis a film-maker and a historian on what actually happened in 1948.

Justice is a beautiful thing, and much is coming.

Do you know the role of Arab propaganda
by exaggerating the scale of the conflict
in causing the flee and defeat?

Now you expect otherwise?

​

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Justice is a beautiful thing, and much is coming.

Do you know the role of Arab propaganda
by exaggerating the scale of the conflict
in causing the flee and defeat?

Now you expect otherwise?

​

Sadly there is no justice, what the Israelis will one day need is what they and the world deny the Palestinians today - mercy.

 

[toomuchtime_]

You say "Israel was attacked in 1948".

Civil war broke out in Palestine BEFORE Israel existed. There was fear of and opposition to a foreign power (Britain with the UN) declaring some already heavily Arab populated territorial region to be a new Jewish country with Zionist ideals. In the eyes of the Arabs, Israel was not a legitimate entity, it was not recognized as such. That there would be war was known to all parties, it was expected and unavoidable given the racist ideology embraced by militant Zionism and the preceding years of Zionist terrorism in the region.

It is disingenuous to claim "Israel was attacked in 1948" its forces were attacked, the entire idea of forcibly choosing to draw a border enclosing 950,000 Arabs and naming it "Israel" and that new state then having a Jew supremacist government with an armed forces created from former terrorist groups, is insanity.

So this was better described as an invasion and annexation of territory by a UN backed regime who then named it (incorrectly) "Israel" - it is that that was attacked.

Nothing but bullshit from you ever. Here's what the Arabs had to say about about invading Israel in 1948.

War of Extermination​

An October 11, 1947 report on the pan-Arab summit in the Lebanese town of Aley,[9] by Akhbar al-Yom's editor Mustafa Amin, contained an interview he held with Arab League secretary-general Azzam. Titled, "A War of Extermination," the interview read as follows (translated by Efraim Karsh; all ellipses are in the original text):

Abdul Rahman Azzam Pasha spoke to me about the horrific war that was in the offing… saying:

"I personally wish that the Jews do not drive us to this war, as this will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Tartar massacre[10] or the Crusader wars. I believe that the number of volunteers from outside Palestine will be larger than Palestine's Arab population, for I know that volunteers will be arriving to us from [as far as] India, Afghanistan, and China to win the honor of martyrdom for the sake of Palestine … You might be surprised to learn that hundreds of Englishmen expressed their wish to volunteer in the Arab armies to fight the Jews.

"This war will be distinguished by three serious matters. First—faith: as each fighter deems his death on behalf of Palestine as the shortest road to paradise; second, [the war] will be an opportunity for vast plunder. Third, it will be impossible to contain the zealous volunteers arriving from all corners of the world to avenge the martyrdom of the Palestine Arabs, and viewing the war as dignifying every Arab and every Muslim throughout the world …

Azzam's Genocidal Threat

Of the countless threats of violence, made by Arab and Palestinian leaders in the run up to and in the wake of the November 29, 1947 partition resolution, none has resonated more widely than the warning by Abdul Rahman Azzam, the Arab League's first

www.meforum.org

Just a few years after the Holocaust, the Arabs are eager to have another genocide against the Jews. And what made the Arabs so bloodthirsty? That the Jews would accept the UN's recommendation of an Arab state with 9000,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews living in peace next to a marginally Jewish state consisting of 500,000 Jews and 400,000 Arabs.

In 1941, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem traveled to Berlin to form a pact with Hitler to jointly kill all the Jews, and in 1947 the Arab League announced they would kill all the Jews, and in 1948, they tried to and failed, and now that is the goal of the Palestinians.

There has never been a time when the Palestinians have been willing to live in peace with the Jews.

 

[rylah]

Sadly there is no justice, what the Israelis will one day need is what they and the world deny the Palestinians today - mercy.

A badly veiled threat by an Islamist thug losing debate?

Keep begging for another Hudna...

​

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'll focus on this point only, the rest is uninteresting and superficial.

Which is why it makes no sense that the Arabs at the time rejected the offer of their own state to balance this out. But whatever...you seem to think that not liking something created by the ruling British power justifies murder.

If the Arabs had accepted that, how would that have helped the 900,000 Arabs who's homes would fall within that new, Israeli border? how would that make the threat of militant Zionism go away?

They'd go to sleep one night and the next day wake to find their home is now in a different country, with a racist government, its like picking up an African village in Mozambique and transporting it into Texas.

You're trying to portray this as some kind of trading game, where people's lives do not matter, their communities and families do not matter, their home, gardens, pets do not matter.

That is precisely how the imperialist mind works, as I said already the militant Zionists are colonizers, they are the problem and until that ideology is eradicated as was the Third Reich, everyone in the region is in danger, Jew and Arab alike.

 

[rylah]

I'll focus on this point only, the rest is uninteresting and superficial.


If the Arabs had accepted that, how would that have helped the 900,000 Arabs who's homes would fall within that new, Israeli border? how would that make the threat of militant Zionism go away?

They'd go to sleep one night and the next day wake to find their home is now in a different country, with a racist government, its like picking up an African village in Mozambique and transporting it into Texas.

You're trying to portray this as some kind of trading game, where people's lives do not matter, their communities and families do not matter, their home, gardens, pets do not matter.

That is precisely how the imperialist mind works, as I said already the militant Zionists are colonizers, they are the problem and until that ideology is eradicated as was the Third Reich, everyone in the region is in danger, Jew and Arab alike.

Arab can't even pronounce "P - alestine"

but yet still call it the Jewish desert.

Judean Desert: The ESSENTIAL Guide

The Judean Desert (also known as the Judaean DesertorMidbar Yehuda in Hebrew) is an amazing desert region in Israel that really should be on your bucket list when making a trip to the Holy Land! For many of us visiting from more cooler regions, the desert always fascinates - and the Judean...

igoogledisrael.com

 

[toomuchtime_]

I'll focus on this point only, the rest is uninteresting and superficial.


If the Arabs had accepted that, how would that have helped the 900,000 Arabs who's homes would fall within that new, Israeli border? how would that make the threat of militant Zionism go away?

They'd go to sleep one night and the next day wake to find their home is now in a different country, with a racist government, its like picking up an African village in Mozambique and transporting it into Texas.

You're trying to portray this as some kind of trading game, where people's lives do not matter, their communities and families do not matter, their home, gardens, pets do not matter.

That is precisely how the imperialist mind works, as I said already the militant Zionists are colonizers, they are the problem and until that ideology is eradicated as was the Third Reich, everyone in the region is in danger, Jew and Arab alike.

Again, nothing but bullshit from you. The Jewish state the UN recommended, and that Israel declared would have had 400,000 Arabs and 500,000 Jews and been committed to being a liberal democracy, so it posed no threat to any Arab who wanted to live in peace with the Jews.

In it's declaration of Independence, here is Israel's response to the Arabs threat of genocide:

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.

WE APPEAL to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building-up of its State and to receive the State of Israel into the comity of nations.

WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

The Avalon Project : Declaration of Israel's Independence 1948

The Arabs weren't afraid of how they would be treated by the Jews in this new state; they were angry that they would no longer be able to treat the Jews as second class citizens as they had for so many centuries.

 

[rosends]

I'll focus on this point only, the rest is uninteresting and superficial.


If the Arabs had accepted that, how would that have helped the 900,000 Arabs who's homes would fall within that new, Israeli border? how would that make the threat of militant Zionism go away?

They'd go to sleep one night and the next day wake to find their home is now in a different country, with a racist government, its like picking up an African village in Mozambique and transporting it into Texas.

You're trying to portray this as some kind of trading game, where people's lives do not matter, their communities and families do not matter, their home, gardens, pets do not matter.

That is precisely how the imperialist mind works, as I said already the militant Zionists are colonizers, they are the problem and until that ideology is eradicated as was the Third Reich, everyone in the region is in danger, Jew and Arab alike.

ooooh, look a conspiracy theory wrapped in a hypothetical. Maybe if the Arabs had accepted that they would have read that the Arabs within that area would be full citizens (their descendants are now). I'm hopeful that the Jews who remained in what would be the Arab state would also become equal. That hasn't been borne out by countries in the Arab world but the nascent Israelis were hopeful that the streak would change).

Maybe if the Arabs had not been killing Jews for so long, they would not have inured themselves to the notion of killing Jews so thoroughly that they even turned it into what is righteous and necessary.

But hey, you just keep trying to make your hypotheticals, making Godwin proud and spouting buzzwords. It's adorable. Pathetic, but adorable, your trying to sit at the grown-ups' table.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Nothing but bullshit from you ever. Here's what the Arabs had to say about about invading Israel in 1948.

War of Extermination​

An October 11, 1947 report on the pan-Arab summit in the Lebanese town of Aley,[9] by Akhbar al-Yom's editor Mustafa Amin, contained an interview he held with Arab League secretary-general Azzam. Titled, "A War of Extermination," the interview read as follows (translated by Efraim Karsh; all ellipses are in the original text):

Azzam's Genocidal Threat

Of the countless threats of violence, made by Arab and Palestinian leaders in the run up to and in the wake of the November 29, 1947 partition resolution, none has resonated more widely than the warning by Abdul Rahman Azzam, the Arab League's first

www.meforum.org

Just a few years after the Holocaust, the Arabs are eager to have another genocide against the Jews. And what made the Arabs so bloodthirsty? That the Jews would accept the UN's recommendation of an Arab state with 9000,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews living in peace next to a marginally Jewish state consisting of 500,000 Jews and 400,000 Arabs.

In 1941, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem traveled to Berlin to form a pact with Hitler to jointly kill all the Jews, and in 1947 the Arab League announced they would kill all the Jews, and in 1948, they tried to and failed, and now that is the goal of the Palestinians.

There has never been a time when the Palestinians have been willing to live in peace with the Jews.

I read that article, I noted this:

This threat is generally believed to have been made during a briefing to the Egyptian press on May 15, 1948, shortly after the pan-Arab invasion of the newly-proclaimed state of Israel. Some scholars trace it to a May 16 New York Times report, citing the Egyptian daily al-Ahram.[1] Yet this New York Times edition contains no such item, whereas the original al-Ahram report has yet to surface. Others cite a BBC broadcast as their source,[2] yet a comprehensive examination, completed by Efraim Karsh, of the corporation's archives in Reading, England, has found no evidence of this broadcast. Others, like the renowned American journalist, I. F. Stone, who covered the saga of Israel's birth as it unfolded, simply noted the threat without proper attribution.

I'd never heard of that so thanks for bringing it up. I did a tiny bit of digging and found this (Azzam's words in red)

In 2010, doubt of the quotation's source was voiced by Joffe and Romirowsky[35] and Benny Morris.[36] It was the subject of an article by David Barnett and Efraim Karsh.[37][38] Azzam's quote was found to have originated in an 11 October 1947 interview for the Egyptian newspaper Akhbar el-Yom: "Personally I hope the Jews do not force us into this war because it will be a war of elimination and it will be a dangerous massacre which history will record similarly to the Mongol massacre or the wars of the Crusades. I think the number of volunteers from outside Palestine will exceed the Palestinian population."

The article you cited also says that original text could be traced to that newspaper, Oct 11 edition. But it also said that "An examination of the original article readily confirms the quote's authenticity, laying to rest one of the longest running historiographical debates attending the 1948 war" but the Wikipedia article's quote does not the term "extermination" but "elimination".

The text of the newspaper and the article itself is here:

Here's the full image here.

Perhaps an Arab speaker here can read this text, translate it accurately for us...

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

ooooh, look a conspiracy theory wrapped in a hypothetical. Maybe if the Arabs had accepted that they would have read that the Arabs within that area would be full citizens (their descendants are now). I'm hopeful that the Jews who remained in what would be the Arab state would also become equal. That hasn't been borne out by countries in the Arab world but the nascent Israelis were hopeful that the streak would change).

So in your analysis the 750,000 who were expelled were not expelled at all, they just left their homes and belongings and jumped onto carts and left voluntarily. That account however doesn't match reality.

Furthermore conspiracies do happen, the word has real application. The Zionists conspired with the British for example in 1919 to ethnically cleanse (and I quote) "Palestinian and Arab peasantry" to facilitate Jewish immigration.

Maybe if the Arabs had not been killing Jews for so long, they would not have inured themselves to the notion of killing Jews so thoroughly that they even turned it into what is righteous and necessary.

The Jews who were expelled from Europe during the crusades, the 18th century, 19th century do you know where they went? To the Levant under Ottoman rule.

It was the Germans who killed 6,000,000 Jews not the Palestinians.

This image was not taken in the Levant but Europe, those events did not take place in the Levant, the camps were not in the Levant, the executioners were not Arab or Palestinian, you likely don't care but I just thought I'd point out.

Any collective hatred that exists today toward Israel or Jews in the Middle East, however reprehensible, cannot credibly be attributed to antisemitism, it must be attributed to the impact that militant Zionism has had on Palestinians and Arabs over the past century.

But hey, you just keep trying to make your hypotheticals, making Godwin proud and spouting buzzwords. It's adorable. Pathetic, but adorable, your trying to sit at the grown-ups' table.

You object to "hypotheticals" yet wrote "Maybe if..." twice in your reply.

 

[Deadstick]

It's why people can't get a DNA test in Israel without a court order, because it would show most are European Colonialists.

 

[rylah]

The white Israeli Colonizers arresting a native brown Palestinian!​

​

 

[rosends]

So in your analysis the 750,000 who were expelled were not expelled at all, they just left their homes and belongings and jumped onto carts and left voluntarily. That account however doesn't match reality.

I don't recall saying anything of the sort. Please show me where I did. (hint: betcha can't)

Furthermore conspiracies do happen, the word has real application. The Zionists conspired with the British for example in 1919 to ethnically cleanse (and I quote) "Palestinian and Arab peasantry" to facilitate Jewish immigration.

so you don't know the difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory. Understood. I'll add it to the list.

It was the Germans who killed 6,000,000 Jews not the Palestinians.

Um, true. What's your point because you obviously missed mine (which is part of the delicious irony of the whole situation...I was going to say "give and take" but that would require that both parties are on that same level and clearly, you don't understand a whole lot that I do).

You object to "hypotheticals" yet wrote "Maybe if..." twice in your reply.

Another swing and a miss for you. Are you really that dim?

My class would be able to identify the irony here, and recognize the Shakespearean notion of one's being hoisted by his own petard.

 

[rosends]

It's why people can't get a DNA test in Israel without a court order, because it would show most are European Colonialists.

sigh...

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

sigh...

Sigh...

Israel’s DNA wars: Forbidden tests​