Why aren't the anti-choice people against birth control pills.

[DiamondDave]

But, the zygote is not alive, according to you, thus it is OK to terminate its presense in the woman's body?

The zygote has not met all criteria for life, per what we have as the 6 main criteria for life, until after implantation...

Now those that wish to protect further because they know that it has the potential, I have no problem with.... I do not go with potential, else we have egg or sperm being potentially life in the right circumstances.... it's a slippery slope that can go back to absurd points

What I am saying is at the point of implantation, all 6 criteria for life are indeed met... and there is no doubt that it is human and not some other species... and yet we do have people who support the termination of that life without direct threat of a life and death situation for the mother

Actually, the zygote DOES have the criteria you listed. All of these have been supported as well.

Now, where did you come up with your criteria you listed? Are they of your choice?

Jesus Christ.... it is learned in about every text book.. though I have sometimes seen it as 5 or 7 criteria (either expanding or compacting down parts of metabolism and division/reproduction)

Criteria for Life - Biology
Life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Definition of life
What is the Definiton of Life?

 

[Si modo]

No that is the ability to have cells conduct respiration... that is not feeding off of an outside energy source..... because something WILL eventually do that does not mean that it IS doing that at the stage in question... see the seed in a vacuum scenario, again

OMG. Cellular respiration IS the uptake of nutrients and other compounds for energy.

Cellular respiration, also known as 'oxidative metabolism', is one of the key ways a cell gains useful energy. It is the set of the metabolic reactions and processes that take place in organisms' cells to convert biochemical energy from nutrients into adenosine triphosphate (ATP), and then release waste products. The reactions involved in respiration are catabolic reactions that involve the oxidation of one molecule and the reduction of another.

Nutrients commonly used by animal and plant cells in respiration include glucose, amino acids and fatty acids, and a common oxidizing agent (electron acceptor) is molecular oxygen (O2). Bacteria and archaea can also be lithotrophs and these organisms may respire using a broad range of inorganic molecules as electron donors and acceptors, such as sulfur, metal ions, methane or hydrogen. Organisms that use oxygen as a final electron acceptor in respiration are described as aerobic, while those that do not are referred to as anaerobic[1].

The energy released in respiration is used to synthesize ATP to store this energy. The energy stored in ATP can then be used to drive processes requiring energy, including biosynthesis, locomotion or transportation of molecules across cell membranes.
....​

That's wiki, so maybe it is more clear.

OMG.. and there is no reference to a blastocyst doing this without implantation to the nutrient source, which is the uterine wall

Yes, there is. SE provided you with it. If you don't believe that a zygote needs nutrients, that link explicitly says it. And, there is the simple concept that cells cannot divide without nutrients. The zygote undergoes meosis before implantation as well.

 

[Si modo]

The zygote has not met all criteria for life, per what we have as the 6 main criteria for life, until after implantation...

Now those that wish to protect further because they know that it has the potential, I have no problem with.... I do not go with potential, else we have egg or sperm being potentially life in the right circumstances.... it's a slippery slope that can go back to absurd points

What I am saying is at the point of implantation, all 6 criteria for life are indeed met... and there is no doubt that it is human and not some other species... and yet we do have people who support the termination of that life without direct threat of a life and death situation for the mother

Actually, the zygote DOES have the criteria you listed. All of these have been supported as well.

Now, where did you come up with your criteria you listed? Are they of your choice?

Jesus Christ.... it is learned in about every text book.. though I have sometimes seen it as 5 or 7 criteria (either expanding or compacting down parts of metabolism and division/reproduction)

Criteria for Life - Biology
Life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Definition of life
What is the Definiton of Life?

OK. According to your chosen criteria, the zygote is alive.

Now what?

 

[Screaming Eagle]

Dave, read at least the first two sentences. It is obvious that the embryo receives nutrients from the liquid it is surrounded by.

Effects of pyruvate and glucose on the development of human preimplantation embryos in vitro -- Conaghan et al. 99 (1): 87 -- Reproduction

Although human embryos will develop in vitro for six days or more, little is known about the effects of the primary nutrients, pyruvate and glucose, on development. Because the nutrient requirements of embryos change thoughout preimplantation development, the effects of altering substrate concentrations in the culture medium were examined, using 'surplus' human preimplantation embryos cultured from the two–four-cell stage to the blastocyst stage in medium containing various concentrations of pyruvate and glucose. Between the one-cell stage and the two–four-cell stage all of the embryos were exposed to 0.47 mmol pyruvate l–1 and 5.5 mmol glucose l–1. Pyruvate as sole substrate in the medium could support blastocyst development to an extent of 59% (10 of 17). Conversely, culture of embryos in pyruvate-free medium resulted in the developmental arrest of 84% (21 of 25) of embryos, and for the 16% (4 of 25) that did reach the blastocyst stage there was a significant decrease in metabolic activity on day 4–5, during the morula to blastocyst stage transition. Embryos could not use glucose to compensate for the lack of pyruvate in the medium. Pyruvate uptake was related to exogenous concentration and optimal development occurred at the highest concentration tested, 0.47 mmol l–1. Embryo development to the eight-cell stage was slightly enhanced 82% (14 of 17) versus 60% (24 of 40) when no glucose was added to the medium, and the resulting blastocysts had significantly more cells (99.1 ± 13.5 versus 58.4 ± 8.2; P < 0.02) than did embryos grown in the presence of 1 mmol glucose l–1 Specifically, embryos that had been grown in glucose-free medium had significantly more trophectoderm cells (66.1 ± 7.7 versus 37.2 ± 7.1, P = 0.023) than did embryos cultured in 1 mmol glucose l–1. At later stages, embryos could compensate for lack of glucose by increasing their pyruvate uptake. Glucose uptake was related to concentration in the medium only at the blastocyst stage and there was significant lactate production at all stages of development, even in the absence of glucose. These results provide important information for the formulation of culture media for human embryos. Pyruvate is an essential component of the medium, and omitting glucose at early cleavage stages helps to overcome the block to development at the four–eight-cell stage, and significantly increases the number of trophectoderm cells of the resulting blastocysts.

 

[Screaming Eagle]

Come on, Dave.

Uptake of pyruvate by early human embryos determined by a non-invasive technique -- Leese et al. 1 (3): 181 -- Human Reproduction

Normal levels of pyruvate in freshly collected follicular fluid were found to be 0.45 mM, a value {small tilde}4x that of serum. The utilization of pyruvate by human oocytes and early embryos has been measured, non-invasively, using two similar but separate analytical methods. The mature oocyte has a high level of pyruvate uptake (36 pmol/embryo/h). After fertilization this value falls, and then slowly increases to reach a peak just prior to the morula stage of 27 pmol/embryo/h before decreasing. Degenerating oocytes and embryos demonstrated much lower pyruvate uptake rates. The possible usefulness of this method for assessing embryo viability is discussed.

 

[Screaming Eagle]

Here's a quote from a scientific paper on this exact subject. Notice how it says METABOLISM, and talks about nutrient uptake.

Pontificia Academia Pro Vita - THE DEVELOPMENT OF PRE-IMPLANTATION EMBRYO

From the illustration of the different stages of pre-implantation embryo development, it can be clearly seen that relevant morphological changes occur. These changes are associated to metabolic variations in terms of aminoacid uptake, protein synthesis and energetic requirement.

And what you quoted is after uterine implantation

During the pre-implantation period embryo is transported through the oviduct into the uterus. On the 7th day after fertilization the blastocyst implants into the uterine mucosa.

From the illustration of the different stages of pre-implantation embryo development, it can be clearly seen that relevant morphological changes occur. These changes are associated to metabolic variations in terms of aminoacid uptake, protein synthesis and energetic requirement.

Dave, please read the title of the piece. That is all. It does not discuss post-implantation.

 

[DiamondDave]

OMG. Cellular respiration IS the uptake of nutrients and other compounds for energy.

Cellular respiration, also known as 'oxidative metabolism', is one of the key ways a cell gains useful energy. It is the set of the metabolic reactions and processes that take place in organisms' cells to convert biochemical energy from nutrients into adenosine triphosphate (ATP), and then release waste products. The reactions involved in respiration are catabolic reactions that involve the oxidation of one molecule and the reduction of another.

Nutrients commonly used by animal and plant cells in respiration include glucose, amino acids and fatty acids, and a common oxidizing agent (electron acceptor) is molecular oxygen (O2). Bacteria and archaea can also be lithotrophs and these organisms may respire using a broad range of inorganic molecules as electron donors and acceptors, such as sulfur, metal ions, methane or hydrogen. Organisms that use oxygen as a final electron acceptor in respiration are described as aerobic, while those that do not are referred to as anaerobic[1].

The energy released in respiration is used to synthesize ATP to store this energy. The energy stored in ATP can then be used to drive processes requiring energy, including biosynthesis, locomotion or transportation of molecules across cell membranes.
....​

That's wiki, so maybe it is more clear.

OMG.. and there is no reference to a blastocyst doing this without implantation to the nutrient source, which is the uterine wall

Yes, there is. SE provided you with it. If you don't believe that a zygoteneeds nutrients, that link explicitely says it. And, there is the simple concept that cells cannot divide without nutrients. The zygote undergoes meosis before implantation as well.

Again... there is no reference saying that the nutrients are obtained from the outside and not from the energy of fertilization... until, that is, the references of feeding beginning AFTER implantation in the uterine wall

Mush like a sperm, with the stored energy within, does not feed.. just as the egg, with the stored energy within, can survive for about 48 hours, and does not feed... those nutrients do not just disappear upon fertilization


Since you guys like wiki
Implantation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Implantation is an event that occurs early in pregnancy in which the embryo adheres to the wall of uterus. At this stage of prenatal development, the embryo is a blastocyst. It is by this adhesion that the fetus receives the oxygen and the nutrients from the mother to be able to grow.

tropho-, troph-, -trophy, -trophs, -trophically, -trophic, -trophous (Greek: food, nutrition, nourishment; development).
trophoblast, trophoblastic
The cell layer that forms the outer wall of the blastocyst. It supplies the embryo with nutrients and aids with implanting the embryo in the uterine wall.

I am seeing ZERO references to the absorption of nutrients by the blastocyst until after implantation... you have provided nothing that shows feeding before implantation

The First 21 Days - Medicine at Michigan Spring 2008
The egg is packed with nutrients, growth factors, enzymes and proteins — nearly everything it needs to jump start the development of a human embryo.

Day 2 to 3 Early Cleavage
Turning on the embryo’s genes

Inside the mother’s body, a fertilized egg moves through the fallopian tube, pushed toward the uterus by filaments lining the inside of the tube. Still dependent on nutrients and genetic instructions contributed by the egg

 

[Newby]

So, because the fertilized egg still needs to develop, it's OK to terminate its potential to develop?

A lot of things prevent eggs from developing. It's actually very hard to get pregnant.

All the pill is doing is making it harder.

One of the reasons for this is so only the best and strongest eggs/sperm come together for a good pregnancy.

Otherwise, it will result in an miscarriage.

As my OBGYN assured me when I was scared to death to find out I was pregnant again (as the last one resulted in a very traumatic misscarriage) "Bad pregnancies are hard to keep, good pregnancies are hard to get rid of. You have a good pregnancy."

She was right. She's going to turn 13 in two months.

Ummm, you're still not getting it. I am NOT talking about an egg - I am talking about a fertlized egg when telling you how the COCP (the Pill) works.

AGAIN, the COCP also prevents implantaion of the fertilized egg. It KILLS the fertilized egg (if it fails in preventing the fertilization).

We could turn this around the other direction and ask if not allowing a newly fertilized egg to attach to the uterine wall is the same as sucking apart a fully formed baby, limb by limb, from the womb?

 

[Screaming Eagle]

OMG.. and there is no reference to a blastocyst doing this without implantation to the nutrient source, which is the uterine wall

Yes, there is. SE provided you with it. If you don't believe that a zygoteneeds nutrients, that link explicitely says it. And, there is the simple concept that cells cannot divide without nutrients. The zygote undergoes meosis before implantation as well.

Again... there is no reference saying that the nutrients are obtained from the outside and not from the energy of fertilization... until, that is, the references of feeding beginning AFTER implantation in the uterine wall

Mush like a sperm, with the stored energy within, does not feed.. just as the egg, with the stored energy within, can survive for about 48 hours, and does not feed... those nutrients do not just disappear upon fertilization


Since you guys like wiki
Implantation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Implantation is an event that occurs early in pregnancy in which the embryo adheres to the wall of uterus. At this stage of prenatal development, the embryo is a blastocyst. It is by this adhesion that the fetus receives the oxygen and the nutrients from the mother to be able to grow.

Yes, basic logic shows that this does not preclude a pre-implantation embryo from acquiring nutrients from its environment.

tropho-, troph-, -trophy, -trophs, -trophically, -trophic, -trophous (Greek: food, nutrition, nourishment; development).
trophoblast, trophoblastic
The cell layer that forms the outer wall of the blastocyst. It supplies the embryo with nutrients and aids with implanting the embryo in the uterine wall.


I am seeing ZERO references to the absorption of nutrients by the blastocyst until after implantation... you have provided nothing that shows feeding before implantation

Really? Read your last section again. Zygote forms trophoblastic cell wall which supplies the embryo with nutrients. This happens through osmosis and like means. Cells have pumps that suck in certain nutrients, pump out salt, etc.

The First 21 Days - Medicine at Michigan Spring 2008
The egg is packed with nutrients, growth factors, enzymes and proteins — nearly everything it needs to jump start the development of a human embryo.

Again, basic logic. It does not say that it contains all the energy an embryo will use until implantation and that no pyruvate is taken up from its environment.

Day 2 to 3 Early Cleavage
Turning on the embryo’s genes

Inside the mother’s body, a fertilized egg moves through the fallopian tube, pushed toward the uterus by filaments lining the inside of the tube. Still dependent on nutrients and genetic instructions contributed by the egg

Sure it is, but it also takes up other nutrients.

 

[Screaming Eagle]

As if I haven't already posted enough to conclusively prove the nutrient uptake by pre-implantation embryos, here's some more links.

Chapter title: Uptake and release of metabolites in human preimplantation embryos
Human Preimplantation Embryo Selection - Google Books

Development of Glucose Utilization Studied in Single Oocytes and
Preimplantation Embryos from Mice
http://www.biolreprod.org/content/50/2/266.full.pdf

Pyruvate and glucose uptake by mouse ova and
preimplantation embryos
http://www.reproduction-online.org/cgi/reprint/72/1/9.pdf

It is subsequently proposed that optimal development of the mammalian embryo in culture requires the use of two or more media, each designed to cater for the changing requirements of the embryo. Importantly, culture conditions that maintain the early embryo are not ideal for the embryo post-compaction, and conditions that support excellent development and differentiation of the blastocyst can actually be inhibitory to the zygote. A marker of in vitro-induced cellular stress to the embryo is the relative activity of the metabolic pathways used to generate energy for development. Quantification of embryo energy metabolism may therefore serve as a valuable marker of embryo development and viability.

Elsevier: Article Locator

 

[Si modo]

OMG.. and there is no reference to a blastocyst doing this without implantation to the nutrient source, which is the uterine wall

Yes, there is. SE provided you with it. If you don't believe that a zygoteneeds nutrients, that link explicitely says it. And, there is the simple concept that cells cannot divide without nutrients. The zygote undergoes meosis before implantation as well.

Again... there is no reference saying that the nutrients are obtained from the outside and not from the energy of fertilization... until, that is, the references of feeding beginning AFTER implantation in the uterine wall

Mush like a sperm, with the stored energy within, does not feed.. just as the egg, with the stored energy within, can survive for about 48 hours, and does not feed... those nutrients do not just disappear upon fertilization


Since you guys like wiki
Implantation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Implantation is an event that occurs early in pregnancy in which the embryo adheres to the wall of uterus. At this stage of prenatal development, the embryo is a blastocyst. It is by this adhesion that the fetus receives the oxygen and the nutrients from the mother to be able to grow.

tropho-, troph-, -trophy, -trophs, -trophically, -trophic, -trophous (Greek: food, nutrition, nourishment; development).
trophoblast, trophoblastic
The cell layer that forms the outer wall of the blastocyst. It supplies the embryo with nutrients and aids with implanting the embryo in the uterine wall.

I am seeing ZERO references to the absorption of nutrients by the blastocyst until after implantation... you have provided nothing that shows feeding before implantation

The First 21 Days - Medicine at Michigan Spring 2008
The egg is packed with nutrients, growth factors, enzymes and proteins &#8212; nearly everything it needs to jump start the development of a human embryo.

Day 2 to 3 Early Cleavage
Turning on the embryo&#8217;s genes

Inside the mother&#8217;s body, a fertilized egg moves through the fallopian tube, pushed toward the uterus by filaments lining the inside of the tube. Still dependent on nutrients and genetic instructions contributed by the egg

You're not seeing any references that a zygote takes nutrients before implanation because you're not reading at the links SE and I are giving you demonstrating that the zygote meets your criteria for living.

We've more than met the burden of supporting our statements that a zygote is alive (never thought one would have to support that).

Now that it is clear that the fertilized egg is alive before implantation, now what?

 

[Si modo]

A lot of things prevent eggs from developing. It's actually very hard to get pregnant.

All the pill is doing is making it harder.

One of the reasons for this is so only the best and strongest eggs/sperm come together for a good pregnancy.

Otherwise, it will result in an miscarriage.

As my OBGYN assured me when I was scared to death to find out I was pregnant again (as the last one resulted in a very traumatic misscarriage) "Bad pregnancies are hard to keep, good pregnancies are hard to get rid of. You have a good pregnancy."

She was right. She's going to turn 13 in two months.

Ummm, you're still not getting it. I am NOT talking about an egg - I am talking about a fertlized egg when telling you how the COCP (the Pill) works.

AGAIN, the COCP also prevents implantaion of the fertilized egg. It KILLS the fertilized egg (if it fails in preventing the fertilization).

We could turn this around the other direction and ask if not allowing a newly fertilized egg to attach to the uterine wall is the same as sucking apart a fully formed baby, limb by limb, from the womb?

It's not the same. But that is not what I am arguing. I am challenging those who are against abortion for the reason that human life begins at conception.

 

[DiamondDave]

Look

Enjoyed the discussion on this.. as it is indeed fascinating.... determining whether the feeding off nutrients is a result of exposure or the implantation or somehow is indeed happening in the hostile environment of the area that is not the uterine wall... in fact I was on the phone with my NNICU mother for a while with it and she is actually going to start looking thru her reference material.... but still getting the insistence from her and the co-worker that is with her that feeding starts at implantation

In any effect... I currently still hold the position that with pregnancy starting at implantation, and with vital factors of implantation being the spark of development, that it is the beginning of human life... who knows.. maybe I will be converted to thinking life is indeed at conception/fertilization and not just implantation... but I certainly do know that I will not support abortion procedures of developing fetuses in the womb...

fair enough??

Anywho.. off to get my daughter and go to an appointment... It may have been heated, si modo and screaming eagle.. but I can honestly say I have enjoyed it and I do think we will and shall continue

 

[Si modo]

Look

Enjoyed the discussion on this.. as it is indeed fascinating.... determining whether the feeding off nutrients is a result of exposure or the implantation or somehow is indeed happening in the hostile environment of the area that is not the uterine wall... in fact I was on the phone with my NNICU mother for a while with it and she is actually going to start looking thru her reference material.... but still getting the insistence from her and the co-worker that is with her that feeding starts at implementation

In any effect... I currently still hold the position that with pregnancy starting at implementation, and with vital factors of implantation being the spark of development, that it is the beginning of human life... who knows.. maybe I will be converted to thinking life is indeed at conception/fertilization and not just implantation... but I certainly do know that I will not support abortion procedures of developing fetuses in the womb...

fair enough??

Anywho.. off to get my daughter and go to an appointment... It may have been heated, si modo and screaming eagle.. but I can honestly say I have enjoyed it and I do think we will and shall continue

Fair enough. It has been refreshing having a reasonable argument here.

Here is a quote from one of the links already provided if that helps you:

....
From the illustration of the different stages of pre-implantation embryo development, it can be clearly seen that relevant morphological changes occur. These changes are associated to metabolic variations in terms of aminoacid uptake, protein synthesis and energetic requirement.
....

[Emnphasis added]

 

[Newby]

Ummm, you're still not getting it. I am NOT talking about an egg - I am talking about a fertlized egg when telling you how the COCP (the Pill) works.

AGAIN, the COCP also prevents implantaion of the fertilized egg. It KILLS the fertilized egg (if it fails in preventing the fertilization).

We could turn this around the other direction and ask if not allowing a newly fertilized egg to attach to the uterine wall is the same as sucking apart a fully formed baby, limb by limb, from the womb?

It's not the same. But that is not what I am arguing. I am challenging those who are against abortion for the reason that human life begins at conception.

But you are arguing exactly that. You're saying that life seconds after conception is the same as a 12 week old baby that can be legally disected and aborted from the womb. You made my point, it's not the same. Why do you feel the need to trap someone in their definition of life and feel as though you've won some kind of a victory? I'm pro-life and I don't believe that abortion is morally right, but I can clearly see the difference between an egg just fertilized not attaching to the womb from what happens in abortion clinics all across the country. If I'm a hypocrite for that stance, then so be it. It still doesn't justify or moralize abortion, no matter how you present it.

 

[Si modo]

We could turn this around the other direction and ask if not allowing a newly fertilized egg to attach to the uterine wall is the same as sucking apart a fully formed baby, limb by limb, from the womb?

It's not the same. But that is not what I am arguing. I am challenging those who are against abortion for the reason that human life begins at conception.

But you are arguing exactly that.
....

Yes indeed, I am arging that. As such, a consistent view for those who hold the position that abortion is wrong because life begins at conception should be against the COCP as well.

 

[Newby]

It's not the same. But that is not what I am arguing. I am challenging those who are against abortion for the reason that human life begins at conception.

But you are arguing exactly that.
....

Yes indeed, I am arging that. As such, a consistent view for those who hold the position that abortion is wrong because life begins at conception should be against the COCP as well.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that people have to hold that view to be pro life. It could have been argued in one statement that people who are pro life and take the pill are hypocrites. End of story/argument. You can feel free to say they're hypocrites and they're free to think that they're not.

 

[Si modo]

But you are arguing exactly that.
....

Yes indeed, I am arging that. As such, a consistent view for those who hold the position that abortion is wrong because life begins at conception should be against the COCP as well.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that people have to hold that view to be pro life.

Again, not my argument. (The straw is starting to become involved).

There are many who are pro life because they say life begins at conception. At this point, my argument is with them. If you are not one who holds that view and have a point about my argument with them, please make it.

.... It could have been argued in one statement that people who are pro life and take the pill are hypocrites. End of story/argument.
....

Done already. Read the thread and see how effective that was. Logic is not the preferred process used by many who discuss this topic.

... You can feel free to say they're hypocrites and they're free to think that they're not.

What the fuck does that mean?

OK. You've tried a few strawmen, now you're contradicting yourself in one post - you say they are hypocrites then you say I am one for pointing out their hypocricy.

I've been discussing with those who choose not to insult and/or take pot shots here. I'll continue to do so. Let me know how you would like to proceed.

 

[Newby]

Yes indeed, I am arging that. As such, a consistent view for those who hold the position that abortion is wrong because life begins at conception should be against the COCP as well.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, but that doesn't mean that people have to hold that view to be pro life.

Again, not my argument. (The straw is starting to become involved).

There are many who are pro life because they say life begins at conception.

.... It could have been argued in one statement that people who are pro life and take the pill are hypocrites. End of story/argument.
....

Done already. Read the thread and see how effective that was. Logic is not the preferred process used by many who discuss this topic.

... You can feel free to say they're hypocrites and they're free to think that they're not.

What the fuck does that mean?

OK. You've tried a few strawmwn now you're contradicting yourself in one post - you say they are hypocrites then you say I am one for pointing out their hypocricy.

I've been discussing with those who choose not to insult here. I'll continue to do so. Let me know how you would like to proceed.

So, even if someone does say or believe that life begins at conception, but they don't condemn people using the pill as a form of birth control? So what? What does that prove to you? That your argument that life doesn't begin at conception is true? That they're hypycrites then? Maybe they see a distinction between the two that you do not? So, your opinion differs from theirs then. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with your argument I guess.

I'm not contradicting myself. You're trying to prove that they're hypocrites (altho I'm not sure why), so maybe in your own opinion they are, but it's still just that, your opinion. They may not view themselves as being hypocrites for being anti-abortion but believing that the use of the birth control pill is fine.

Someone has argued thru the entire thread that a fertilized egg doesn't constitute life in their opinion until it is attached to the womb. I would assume that those people that are pro-life and hold the same opinion that you do about the birth control pill, don't take the birth control pill. If you're looking for someone to justify being pro-life while at the same time taking the pill, then I'm not sure why they would need too? Isn't that a personal CHOICE?

 

[Misty]

I can only speak about how I feel.

I don't have a problem with women having the right to choose, I get why this is necessary.

I don't like propaganda that it's not a life so therefore abort away.

It is a life and by choosing an abortion you are ending the life of your child.