Why aren't the anti-choice people against birth control pills.

[Si modo]

You just don't like me very much, do you? For what it's worth, I typically agree with you and respect your opinion on many topics, so it's a shame that you can't seem to have the same courtesy towards others who's views differ from yours.

I've read the whole thing. My point was that for your argument in this thread about when a woman is considered 'pregnant' or life begins, you seem to be able to clearly define it. However, when the shoe is on the other foot and life needs to be defined when it comes to aborting a baby at any stage of pregnancy, it's somehow undefinable then. Funny how that changes. Your crying hypocrasy while being guilty of it yourself.

I clearly see a difference between an hours old fertilized egg not planting to the womb and a ten to twelve week old baby. How do you justify your support of a fully formed person being ripped apart and sucked out of the womb and not calling it a life?

Another strawman. How do you know I justify that?

Whether I like you or not is irrelevant. Also, it's ridiculous of you to think that I 'like' or dislike folks based on their board posts. I don't like or dislike folks about whom I know nothing. And, I don't like or dislike folks with whom I disagree on a topic. Not my style, yet you assume it is.

Now, you took at least two gratuitous potshots at me in your few posts here. And, it is clear from a few of those posts that you didn't read the thread before you took those potshots.

As I said, the tone was relatively fine here. I am discussing with those who want to discuss the topic. Reading the thread helps those interested in a fruitful discussion to have the same foundation.

If you have read the thread, I apologize for saying that you didn't.

Si Modo, I read every thread all the way thru that I participate in, so you are wrong. Secondly, I haven't taken any 'pot shots' at you. And for someone who doesn't 'dislike' people, you certainly throw insults around fairly quickly, just read through the thread and it's quite clear. Show me where I have not discussed the topic? You keep saying that ad nauseum, so please show where I am not discussing the topic outside of defending myself from your accusations.

And you said earlier that you're pro-choice, so you have to justify abortion in some way unless your opinion is that it is not the taking of a life.

Where did I insult you, Newby? Go ahead, show me where?

When you're finished trying to do that, perhaps we can discuss the topic? That would be contained in the actual title of the thread. If you want to broaden the topic, I would be pleased to discuss it with you elsewhere. This more specific angle, after over 300 posts, seems enough here, IMO.

 

[Newby]

*sigh*

 

[Si modo]

*sigh*

Indeed.

Is that the ever popular but no less illogical, "if you don't understand I can't be bothered" line of debate?

 

[SmarterThanHick]

I do not disagree with your statements and conclusions here

That's because you are both wrong. Again, pregnancy is not defined by your personal opinion, it has a specific definition.

Stedman's medical dictionary lists that definition as "The state of a female after conception and until the termination of the gestation." SYN gestation, gravid. When doctors say "you are 12 weeks pregnant", the week in between conception and implantation is included in there.

Oh but I'm sure you'll insist your opinion of what it REALLY is has more value then the sum total of doctors in America.

Why don't you try telling the pro-choice crowd the same thing when it comes to the definition of life?

Because the definition of pregnancy is NOT the definition of life?

Yet in other medical texts the definition of when pregnancy starts is indeed upon implantation...
and these indeed have been linked to earlier in the thread... as a matter of fact, you will not even get a positive pregnancy test until implantation occurs...

False. This is not some medical text book. Stedman's medical dictionary is supported by the AMA, and regarded as a definitive source of information. Link me to the post that contains citation of these other books you mentioned. I'm curious.

As for positive pregnancy test: that's just dumb reasoning. The purpose of the product is to identify implantation and advancing pregnancies. You're using circular reasoning. Of course the post-implantation test only reads positive after implantation.

 

[Modbert]

There are certain people in this country who pretty much want us to adhere to a certain religion's ruling on sex, which would be sex only to make children.

If that's not governmental intrusion into the bedroom, I'm not sure what is.

Abortion should be legal (least for the first trimester).

Birth control should be legal.

Simple as that. Any conservative who tries to tell you otherwise is a faux conservative in conservative/libertarian clothing.

 

[SuMar]

In the rare chance an egg is produced while a woman is on birth control, the birth control pill will often cause a fertilized egg - in other words - a HUMAN BEING - to fail to attach to the uterine wall. This results in an abortion.

Why is it OK to kill an embryo right after conception with a birth control pill, but not anything else?

One might ask as well, why are liberals against responsible people? The best form of birth control is not having sex until you are ready and mature enough to take care of a baby.

 

[Modbert]

One might ask as well, why are liberals against responsible people? The best form of birth control is not having sex until you are ready and mature enough to take care of a baby.

Why are Conservatives against allowing those to take birth control pills? I could see spinning the whole "Oh, a baby's life" spiel for being against abortion. However, there is no reason, at all, to be against birth control unless you are trying to turn the United States into a theology. Simple. As. That.

 

[SuMar]

One might ask as well, why are liberals against responsible people? The best form of birth control is not having sex until you are ready and mature enough to take care of a baby.

Why are Conservatives against allowing those to take birth control pills? I could see spinning the whole "Oh, a baby's life" spiel for being against abortion. However, there is no reason, at all, to be against birth control unless you are trying to turn the United States into a theology. Simple. As. That.

I have no problem with birth control. It is a fact, though, it's not 100% effective. The only problem I have is liberals against birth control except using abortion as form of birth control.

 

[Modbert]

I have no problem with birth control. It is a fact, though, it's not 100% effective. The only problem I have is liberals against birth control except using abortion as form of birth control.

Sorry, but this has to be said.

 

[SuMar]

And since when is it wrong to teach young people and irresponsible adults about abstaining from sex if they can't get any birth control?

Liberals have the attitude, "how dare you say we shouldn't have sex?"

 

[Modbert]

And since when is it wrong to teach young people and irresponsible adults about abstaining from sex if they can't get any birth control?

Liberals have the attitude, "how dare you say we shouldn't have sex?"

I would wish you don't try to characterize a entire group of people with one sentence that you can't even attribute to one person. You don't see me doing that.

It's not wrong to teach young people about abstaining from sex if they can't get any birth control. However, it is wrong to ONLY teach children about abstaining from sex, and not about birth control. So when they don't abstain for sex (which doesn't work in many cases to say the least) they don't use protection. Which not only leaves the chance of pregnancy but the chance of disease being spread.

If anything, this Liberal says "I have no problem about teaching others that abstaining from sex would be the best choice at this part of your life, however, be sure to teach them as well about measures to protect themselves and their partner if they do choose to have sexual relations."

 

[Qball]

And since when is it wrong to teach young people and irresponsible adults about abstaining from sex if they can't get any birth control?

Liberals have the attitude, "how dare you say we shouldn't have sex?"

I would wish you don't try to characterize a entire group of people with one sentence that you can't even attribute to one person. You don't see me doing that.

It's not wrong to teach young people about abstaining from sex if they can't get any birth control. However, it is wrong to ONLY teach children about abstaining from sex, and not about birth control. So when they don't abstain for sex (which doesn't work in many cases to say the least) they don't use protection. Which not only leaves the chance of pregnancy but the chance of disease being spread.

If anything, this Liberal says "I have no problem about teaching others that abstaining from sex would be the best choice at this part of your life, however, be sure to teach them as well about measures to protect themselves and their partner if they do choose to have sexual relations."

But see, this is why I disagree with that. It sounds perfectly reasonable, but I think I would question the importance of "teaching" birth control. Birth control isn't a great big secret conservatives want to keep, or could keep, away from adolescents. They show BC pill and condom commercials on TV in the afternoon. You can find out everything you ever wanted to know about condoms and the Pill in a two second Google search.

This isn't the '50s. I'd highly doubt there are a ton of kids these days who have no idea about contraception, where to find it, and what it's used for. My guess is the kids who are totally in the dark probably aren't sexually active ones anyway. I just think teaching contraception in tandem with encouraging kids to be abstinent is kind of like asking them to only take you half-seriously. There need to be clear lines drawn in the same for adolescents on the sex issue.

 

[Modbert]

But see, this is why I disagree with that. It sounds perfectly reasonable, but I think I would question the importance of "teaching" birth control. Birth control isn't a great big secret conservatives want to keep, or could keep, away from adolescents. They show BC pill and condom commercials on TV in the afternoon. You can find out everything you ever wanted to know about condoms and the Pill in a two second Google search.

This isn't the '50s. I'd highly doubt there are a ton of kids these days who have no idea about contraception, where to find it, and what it's used for. My guess is the kids who are totally in the dark probably aren't sexually active ones anyway. I just think teaching contraception in tandem with encouraging kids to be abstinent is kind of like asking them to only take you half-seriously. There need to be clear lines drawn in the same for adolescents on the sex issue.

Never see BC pill and condom commercials on TV in the afternoon or even at night. As someone who is up most of the night, I can say that quite easily.

I think teaching contraception in tandem with encouraging kids to be abstinent is asking them to take you seriously. To be quite honest, I think you're just using the whole "well they know all about birth control, so they don't need it taught in the classroom" as a excuse to not have it taught at all.

If you are going to use that argument, then the whole idea of teaching them to be abstinent is futile since they know all about that too.

So it's either all or nothing.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

One might ask as well, why are liberals against responsible people? The best form of birth control is not having sex until you are ready and mature enough to take care of a baby.

Against responsible people? If by "responsible", you mean people who only teach abstinence sex education, then the reason I personally am against such people is because abstinence only education is proven to increase the rates of teen pregnancy, abortion, and STD transmission.

So tell me, my responsible friend: would you choose the teenagers in your community have higher rates of teen pregnancy, abortion, and STD transmission? This requires a yes or no response only. You can preach all you want about what SHOULD happen, but here in reality, we react to things that DO happen. Abstinence only education is a proven failure. What would you recommend next?

 

[Darkwind]

In the rare chance an egg is produced while a woman is on birth control, the birth control pill will often cause a fertilized egg - in other words - a HUMAN BEING - to fail to attach to the uterine wall. This results in an abortion.

Why is it OK to kill an embryo right after conception with a birth control pill, but not anything else?

If your too fucking stupid to know the difference and old enough to use the internet, there really is no need to discuss it with you. You've already been propagandized.

Enjoy your justifications.

 

[JScott]

Recall all the rightwingers around here who signed onto the notion that abortion rights in the black community were causing a black genocide?

Why wouldn't they, logically, consider the availability of birth control in the black community to be essentially the same thing?

I have two words to reply to that:

MARGARET SANGER, Founding of Planned Parenthood!

The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."
Margaret Sanger (editor). The Woman Rebel, Volume I, Number 1. Reprinted in Woman and the New Race. New York: Brentanos Publishers, 1922.

"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."
Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control. New York: New York Publishing Company, 1922. Page 12.

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population. and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."
Margaret Sanger's December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255 Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in Linda Gordon's Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America. New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.

Margaret Sanger quotes : Founder of Planned Parenthood

Love your quotes but they are taken out of context.

-Knowledge of birth control is essentially moral. Its general, though prudent, practice must lead to a higher individuality and ultimately to a cleaner race
.

-Thus we see that the second and third children have a very good chance to live through the first year. Children arriving later have less and less chance, until the twelfth has hardly any chance at all to live twelve months. [npg] This does not complete the case, however, for those who care to go farther into the subject will find that many of those who live for a year die before they reach the age of five. [npg] Many, perhaps, will think it idle to go farther in demonstrating the immorality of large families, but since there is still an abundance of proof at hand, it may be offered for the sake of those who find difficulty in adjusting old-fashioned ideas to the facts. The most merciful thing that the large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it. The same factors which create the terrible infant mortality rate, and which swell the death rate of children between the ages of one and five, operate even more extensively to lower the health rate of the surviving members.

And about your "We should hire three or four colored ministers.........yada yada yada" statement, she was referring to the "Negro Project"

-Sanger's Outreach to the African-American Community

In 1930, Sanger opened a family planning clinic in Harlem that sought to enlist support for contraceptive use and to bring the benefits of family planning to women who were denied access to their city's health and social services. Staffed by a black physician and black social worker, the clinic was endorsed by The Amsterdam News (the powerful local newspaper), the Abyssinian Baptist Church, the Urban League, and the black community's elder statesman, W.E.B. DuBois.

Beginning in 1939, DuBois also served on the advisory council for Sanger's "Negro Project," which was a "unique experiment in race-building and humanitarian service to a race subjected to discrimination, hardship, and segregation” (Chesler, 1992). The Negro Project served African-Americans in the rural South. Other leaders of the African-American community who were involved in the project included Mary McLeod Bethune, founder of the National Council of Negro Women, and Adam Clayton Powell Jr., pastor of the Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem.

The Negro Project was also endorsed by prominent white Americans who were involved in social justice efforts at this time, including Eleanor Roosevelt, the most visible and compassionate supporter of racial equality in her era; and the medical philanthropists, Albert and Mary Lasker, whose financial support made the project possible.

 

[Si modo]

One might ask as well, why are liberals against responsible people? The best form of birth control is not having sex until you are ready and mature enough to take care of a baby.

Against responsible people? If by "responsible", you mean people who only teach abstinence sex education, then the reason I personally am against such people is because abstinence only education is proven to increase the rates of teen pregnancy, abortion, and STD transmission.
....

Can you support that, please?

 

[Si modo]

In the rare chance an egg is produced while a woman is on birth control, the birth control pill will often cause a fertilized egg - in other words - a HUMAN BEING - to fail to attach to the uterine wall. This results in an abortion.

Why is it OK to kill an embryo right after conception with a birth control pill, but not anything else?

If your too fucking stupid to know the difference and old enough to use the internet, there really is no need to discuss it with you. You've already been propagandized.

Enjoy your justifications.

Actually, as already discussed here, there is no difference during the first 7-10 days after conception.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

good point. The answer is that BOTH abortion and taking of the pill (if a new lifeform is attached to the uterine wall) is a form of murder. It is that simple.

Yesterday I picked up an acorn and threw it into the street, where a car ran over it. I then went home and told my friend that I threw a tree into the road and it hit a car. Totally same thing.

Can you support that, please?

sure. i thought this was well known by now

New Study Proves Abstinence Only Education is Failing - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com
The Failure of Abstinence-Only Sex Education | Nick Gier | NewWest.Net
Abstinence-Only a Failure, Latest Research Shows | National Sexuality Resource Center (NSRC)
Abstinence-only increases pregnancy | TimesDaily.com | The Times Daily | Florence, AL
After Years of Decline, Teenage Pregnancy Rate Rises - NYTimes.com

It goes on and on. Most of those articles reference individual studies, if you'd like to look into it more.

 

[Si modo]

good point. The answer is that BOTH abortion and taking of the pill (if a new lifeform is attached to the uterine wall) is a form of murder. It is that simple.

Yesterday I picked up an acorn and threw it into the street, where a car ran over it. I then went home and told my friend that I threw a tree into the road and it hit a car. Totally same thing.

Can you support that, please?

sure. i thought this was well known by now

New Study Proves Abstinence Only Education is Failing - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com
The Failure of Abstinence-Only Sex Education | Nick Gier | NewWest.Net
Abstinence-Only a Failure, Latest Research Shows | National Sexuality Resource Center (NSRC)
Abstinence-only increases pregnancy | TimesDaily.com | The Times Daily | Florence, AL
After Years of Decline, Teenage Pregnancy Rate Rises - NYTimes.com

It goes on and on. Most of those articles reference individual studies, if you'd like to look into it more.

Thank you. It is well known, but not all know it. Thus my request. Keeping all well informed often makes for fruitful debate and rational opinions.