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Why do you say that? Obviously the founding fathers didn't care about the subject of abortion as they never addressed it nor did they count the unborn as persons.
That is right and it was illegal in almost all cases all the way up until 1973, go figure.
Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not my favorite source, but the map of where it was legal vs illegal is helpful.
Immie
Immie
where did you get that?
this is from your link:
it was not until 1820 that states started trying to interfere.There were few laws on abortion in the United States at the time of independence, except the English common law adopted into United States law by Acts of Reception, which held abortion to be legally acceptable if occurring before quickening. James Wilson, a framer of the U.S. Constitution, explained as follows:
With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.[2]
I find it very sad that you see the first picture not as a developing human being but rather as an utterly disposable 'thing' just because it has not yet developed enough to survive on it's own outside of the womb.
is an egg a chicken? is there no distinction?
or is it just because you have a particular religious view, you think you can impose that view on everyone else?
Oh knock it off, jillian. Go find ANYWHERE in ANY abortion thread where I've EVER ONCE brought religion (mine or any other) into it. Go ahead, FIND IT. That's really bullshit you know? I thought you above that kind of shit.
A fertilized chicken egg is a chicken in the earliest stages of life.
That is right and it was illegal in almost all cases all the way up until 1973, go figure.
Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not my favorite source, but the map of where it was legal vs illegal is helpful.
Immie
Immie
where did you get that?
this is from your link:
it was not until 1820 that states started trying to interfere.There were few laws on abortion in the United States at the time of independence, except the English common law adopted into United States law by Acts of Reception, which held abortion to be legally acceptable if occurring before quickening. James Wilson, a framer of the U.S. Constitution, explained as follows:
With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.[2]
It wasn't 'til the 1970s that states started trying to interfere when a man raped his wife or children
You really want to stick to your argument knowing it means child molestation and spousal rape should be decriminalized, too?
Or perhaps you'd like to reconsider your line of argument?
Allowing someone to rape someone is also not allowing a woman to do what she wants to do with her body.
That is right and it was illegal in almost all cases all the way up until 1973, go figure.
Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not my favorite source, but the map of where it was legal vs illegal is helpful.
Immie
Immie
where did you get that?
this is from your link:
it was not until 1820 that states started trying to interfere.There were few laws on abortion in the United States at the time of independence, except the English common law adopted into United States law by Acts of Reception, which held abortion to be legally acceptable if occurring before quickening. James Wilson, a framer of the U.S. Constitution, explained as follows:
“ With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.[2]
It wasn't 'til the 1970s that states started trying to interfere when a man raped his wife or children
You really want to stick to your argument knowing it means child molestation and spousal rape should be decriminalized, too?
Or perhaps you'd like to reconsider your line of argument?
is an egg a chicken? is there no distinction?
or is it just because you have a particular religious view, you think you can impose that view on everyone else?
Oh knock it off, jillian. Go find ANYWHERE in ANY abortion thread where I've EVER ONCE brought religion (mine or any other) into it. Go ahead, FIND IT. That's really bullshit you know? I thought you above that kind of shit.
A fertilized chicken egg is a chicken in the earliest stages of life.
whether or not life should be PROTECTED from conception is a religious concept. I do not share that concept.
and for the record, i thought you were above the rightwing picture posting. we all know what a fetus looks like. having pictures shoved in one's face does nothing to change anyone's minds.
Why do you say that? Obviously the founding fathers didn't care about the subject of abortion as they never addressed it nor did they count the unborn as persons.
That is right and it was illegal in almost all cases all the way up until 1973, go figure.
Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not my favorite source, but the map of where it was legal vs illegal is helpful.
Immie
Immie
where did you get that?
this is from your link:
There were few laws on abortion in the United States at the time of independence, except the English common law adopted into United States law by Acts of Reception, which held abortion to be legally acceptable if occurring before quickening. James Wilson, a framer of the U.S. Constitution, explained as follows:
“ With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.[2]
it was not until 1820 that states started trying to interfere.
Allowing someone to rape someone is also not allowing a woman to do what she wants to do with her body.
where did you get that?
this is from your link:
it was not until 1820 that states started trying to interfere.
It wasn't 'til the 1970s that states started trying to interfere when a man raped his wife or children
You really want to stick to your argument knowing it means child molestation and spousal rape should be decriminalized, too?
Or perhaps you'd like to reconsider your line of argument?
i posted what i did in response to YOUR assertion.
You don't get to move the goal posts.
The issue isn't spousal rape or child molestation.
you stated something that was untrue... to wit, that the founders wouldn't have considered abortion because abortion was largely ILLEGAL then
. The opposite is true and the founders probably would have found abortion as political issue inconceivable since it had always been legal.... at least up to a point.
Hint: that's because it is a MEDICAL issue... not a political one.
is an egg a chicken? is there no distinction?
or is it just because you have a particular religious view, you think you can impose that view on everyone else?
Oh knock it off, jillian. Go find ANYWHERE in ANY abortion thread where I've EVER ONCE brought religion (mine or any other) into it. Go ahead, FIND IT. That's really bullshit you know? I thought you above that kind of shit.
A fertilized chicken egg is a chicken in the earliest stages of life.
whether or not life should be PROTECTED from conception is a religious concept. I do not share that concept.
and for the record, i thought you were above the rightwing picture posting. we all know what a fetus looks like. having pictures shoved in one's face does nothing to change anyone's minds.
The point being: the founding fathers weren't concerned about abortion, perhaps because as Jillian pointed out, it was a medical matter. Abortion was legal from the beginning of this country until, according to wikipedia, it started to be outlawed in 1820 in various places.That is right and it was illegal in almost all cases all the way up until 1973, go figure.
Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not my favorite source, but the map of where it was legal vs illegal is helpful.
Immie
Immie
where did you get that?
this is from your link:
it was not until 1820 that states started trying to interfere.There were few laws on abortion in the United States at the time of independence, except the English common law adopted into United States law by Acts of Reception, which held abortion to be legally acceptable if occurring before quickening. James Wilson, a framer of the U.S. Constitution, explained as follows:
With consistency, beautiful and undeviating, human life, from its commencement to its close, is protected by the common law. In the contemplation of law, life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb. By the law, life is protected not only from immediate destruction, but from every degree of actual violence, and, in some cases, from every degree of danger.[2]
That is fine and I may have been wrong regardless during your lifetime prior to 1973, abortion was and had been illegal for 150 years in most cases. So, in 1970, if you were marching with Norma, you were fighting for something you believe in which is and was your right to do. Yet, now that you have the government on your side, you want to tell people that don't agree with you that they should just shut their mouths because the issue is decided.
Neither one of us have the right to snuff out someone else's right to free speech simply because the government has decided a matter in our favor. The debate goes on as it should.
Edit: acknowledgments given to Ravi for her post on this matter as well. Please accept this answer as an attempt at a respectful answer to both of your posts.
Immie
Wrong, both issues are about a person being allowed to do what they wish with their body.Allowing someone to rape someone is also not allowing a woman to do what she wants to do with her body.
Sure, it is. She can resist or go along with is as she wills, just as he does as he will with his body in attempting to overpower her.
I wonder whether the foetus would choose to tear its won body apart with a pair of forceps...
Wrong, both issues are about a person being allowed to do what they wish with their body.Allowing someone to rape someone is also not allowing a woman to do what she wants to do with her body.
Sure, it is. She can resist or go along with is as she wills, just as he does as he will with his body in attempting to overpower her.
I wonder whether the foetus would choose to tear its won body apart with a pair of forceps...
The point being: the founding fathers weren't concerned about abortion, perhaps because as Jillian pointed out, it was a medical matter. Abortion was legal from the beginning of this country until, according to wikipedia, it started to be outlawed in 1820 in various places.where did you get that?
this is from your link:
it was not until 1820 that states started trying to interfere.
That is fine and I may have been wrong regardless during your lifetime prior to 1973, abortion was and had been illegal for 150 years in most cases. So, in 1970, if you were marching with Norma, you were fighting for something you believe in which is and was your right to do. Yet, now that you have the government on your side, you want to tell people that don't agree with you that they should just shut their mouths because the issue is decided.
Neither one of us have the right to snuff out someone else's right to free speech simply because the government has decided a matter in our favor. The debate goes on as it should.
Edit: acknowledgments given to Ravi for her post on this matter as well. Please accept this answer as an attempt at a respectful answer to both of your posts.
Immie
The point being: the founding fathers weren't concerned about abortion, perhaps because as Jillian pointed out, it was a medical matter. Abortion was legal from the beginning of this country until, according to wikipedia, it started to be outlawed in 1820 in various places.That is fine and I may have been wrong regardless during your lifetime prior to 1973, abortion was and had been illegal for 150 years in most cases. So, in 1970, if you were marching with Norma, you were fighting for something you believe in which is and was your right to do. Yet, now that you have the government on your side, you want to tell people that don't agree with you that they should just shut their mouths because the issue is decided.
Neither one of us have the right to snuff out someone else's right to free speech simply because the government has decided a matter in our favor. The debate goes on as it should.
Edit: acknowledgments given to Ravi for her post on this matter as well. Please accept this answer as an attempt at a respectful answer to both of your posts.
Immie
Yet, it seems that in 2011, some people (although I find it hard to believe that Jillian is one of those as she has always seemed fair minded to me) think that now that the government is on their side, the discussion should be squashed. I highly doubt that in relationship to this particular issue if Roe v. Wade had not existed and the laws were as they had been in 1972, that those same people would approve of others saying that the issue is settled and has been for nearly 200 years so it is time to end the discussion.
Immie
I think since it was not an issue with the founders, since it was legal, since the unborn weren't considered persons then the years between 1820 and 1973 were the years when the laws were wrong. That the law in 1973 went back to the original intent of the founders is IMO, why people should get over themselves.The point being: the founding fathers weren't concerned about abortion, perhaps because as Jillian pointed out, it was a medical matter. Abortion was legal from the beginning of this country until, according to wikipedia, it started to be outlawed in 1820 in various places.That is fine and I may have been wrong regardless during your lifetime prior to 1973, abortion was and had been illegal for 150 years in most cases. So, in 1970, if you were marching with Norma, you were fighting for something you believe in which is and was your right to do. Yet, now that you have the government on your side, you want to tell people that don't agree with you that they should just shut their mouths because the issue is decided.
Neither one of us have the right to snuff out someone else's right to free speech simply because the government has decided a matter in our favor. The debate goes on as it should.
Edit: acknowledgments given to Ravi for her post on this matter as well. Please accept this answer as an attempt at a respectful answer to both of your posts.
Immie
Yet, it seems that in 2011, some people (although I find it hard to believe that Jillian is one of those as she has always seemed fair minded to me) think that now that the government is on their side, the discussion should be squashed. I highly doubt that in relationship to this particular issue if Roe v. Wade had not existed and the laws were as they had been in 1972, that those same people would approve of others saying that the issue is settled and has been for nearly 200 years so it is time to end the discussion.
Immie
When I was born.How old were you, ravi, when killing you in cold blood went form being an okay thing to a not-okay thing and why did it suddenly become not-okay?
So if you don't want a negroe, don't buy one?That the law in 1973 went back to the original intent of the founders is IMO, why people should get over themselves.
If you don't want an abortion simply don't have one.
I think you should be banned for your unremitting nastiness toward Grace. And quite frankly, it is a shame you weren't aborted.So if you don't want a negroe, don't buy one?That the law in 1973 went back to the original intent of the founders is IMO, why people should get over themselves.
If you don't want an abortion simply don't have one.
If you don't want to rape grace, don't?
If you don't want to set off a car bomb in Time square, don't?
Have a problem with killing or hurting people? Don't do it yourself and let those who enjoy it have their fun!
