Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Cecilie1200]

My threshold for removing a fetus is about 9 weeks my end point. In that time a person has had enough time to make up their minds. Anything longer then that the pregnancy has gone to far in my opinion, and the and it is viable...

Define: viable

We can save preemies today we couldn't have decades ago. It's a moving target.

Does grandma become free game when she's on a respirator?

Why does 'viability' mean anything at all?


Had enough time? What about all the time you had to decide to not engage in unprotected sex or to keep your clothes on if you're not ready to provide and care for a child?

How about this variable? It was time enough for the guy to keep his dick in his pants and since he didnt, had a woody and thought hed show some "power" and "control" and his banty rooster mentality needed to force himself on someone weaker to step up and own what he did, but didnt, and therefore got his sorry ass thrown in jail because what he did was ILLEGAL and called RAPE.

Howzat for variables, insinuations, finger pointing and overall GUESSING scenarios of which nobody knows jack shit about while arguing a point over and over and over and over again?

Seriously, Grace, how about you get some counseling and stop projecting your own emotional issues all over the rest of us? This is not a group-therapy session, and emotional reactions substituting for logical thought is one of the worst sorts of dishonesty around.

The fact that something bad happened to you does not make anything you say on the subject automatically right, nor does it entitle you to shut down any discussion on the topic that you don't like or want to hear. Victimhood does not convey infallibility.

I swear to God, I am not trying to be mean or callous here, but it honestly sounds to me like you've spent a lot of time since the attack with people tiptoeing around you, patting you on the back and saying, "Poor baby, whatever makes you feel better about it", to the point where you've gotten the idea that you have a right to expect that from everyone. You don't, nor do I think it's been helpful, judging by the amount of hatred and bitterness you're spewing all around you.

The truth is, I think the attitudes and perspectives you were taught about pregnancy, abortion, and perhaps femaleness in general, left you badly-equipped to deal with what happened. They don't seem to have offered you any point from which you can gain peace or a positive outlook and move on. If I didn't object to the stridently negative battle cry of "My body, my choice!" for any other reason, I would object to it because of that.

Lastly, you should really get past this whole "No one else can POSSIBLY know how I feel, no one else has suffered like I have!" idea. You don't know any of us in real life, and you have no way of knowing what we've been through, but you should at least be mature enough to know that your experience is, sadly, far from unique.

 

[syrenn]

Yes, Sy, we've always known you were a parasite

no more then you it would seem.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Rape victims account for 1% of abortions

Parading them around to justify the 93% of abortions that are done out of simple convenience is bullshit. It is nothing short of the exploitation of their suffering to serve the political and economic interests of the abortion industry.

In this case, it's Grace being wholly unable to deal with what happened to her, and feeling that she needs to defend ALL abortion in order to defend her own decision.

 

[jillian]

I've stipulated that the zygote/embryo/fetus is human.

I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that relevant in the context of deciding the right or wrong, the legality or illegality,

of a 1st trimester abortion,

the use of RU486,

the use of the morning after pill,

the discarding of fertilized eggs at a fertility clinic.

Anyone? No one?

So you concur that from conception it is a human being. Good.

Now you want to know the 'right and wrong' of destroying that human being via:

abortion
RU486
discarding fertilized eggs at a fertility clinic
(I believe the morning after pill prevents conception)



It's been answered throughout this thread. So sad that you can't see the answer for yourself.

Try answering JB's question that's been asked of you ad nauseum.

no one is asking you the right and wrong of destroying a fetus. the question is when does government have the right to insert itself into a woman's body? and when do you get the right to make decisions for others?

if someone feels strongly about this issue, that's fine. but they need to keep those feelings away from anyone who isn't asking for their input.... same as with religion. everyone's entitled to their own. no one has the right to, uninvited, impose their religion on others.

and, ultimately, isn't that what we're talking about?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I dont give one iota what the percentages are. YOU DONT KNOW SQUAT and Im sick of reading your drivel.

Then leave the thread. You don't have the right to silence people just because you're a victim. And you're never going to STOP being a victim until you stop playing the "poor little me, everyone has to coddle me" card.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Rape victims account for 1% of abortions

REPORTED rape victims. REPORTED. Obviously you DO believe everything you read on the net. I thought so.

You want to argue with the Guttmacher Institute over what the women themselves said? Go ahead. Meanwhile, the WOMEN were the ones who said they were getting an abortion because of rape, so if you think your victimhood gives you the right to call OTHER women who've gotten abortion liars, then go take it up with them. DON'T come storming in here, spewing emotional disorders all over everyone else and thinking it entitles you to sweep away all parameters of discussion and set up your own injuries in their place.

Once again, this isn't group therapy, and we're not your counselors.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Want to read whats on the net? FINE. Here ya go! Got LOTS to cut and paste for ya. Ill take my time, though. Wouldnt wanna overwhelm ya, ya know.

One reported forcible rape or attempted rape takes place approximately every six minutes in the United States. This statistic does not included unreported rapes or other sexual assaults, including assaults against men or many children (boys, or girls sexually assaulted but not raped).
A history of physical abuse, sexual abuse, or neglect can be found in the background of many adolescent sex offenders.
75% percent of women raped are between the ages of 15 and 21. The average age is 18.
Only 16 percent of rapes are ever reported to the police.
In the United States, every 2-3 minutes a woman is sexually assaulted.
87% of all sexual assault victims are female.
The single most effective strategy used to stop an assault is an immediate physical and verbal response.
97% of all sexual assault offenders are male.
85% of all sexual assaults are committed by a family member, friend, or acquaintance of the victim.
In over one-third of all sexual assaults, the assailant attacks the victim in the victim's own home.
Rape is the most under-reported crime in the United States.

Statistics

In a study conducted by the Department of Justice and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, researchers interviewed 8,000 women and 8,000 men. Using a definition of rape that includes forced vaginal, oral, and anal intercourse, the survey found that 1 in 6 women had experienced an attempted rape or a completed rape.

At the time they were raped:

22% were under the age of twelve
54% were under the age of eighteen
83% were under the age of twenty-five

In the same study, 1 in 33 men had experienced a sexual assault.

Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, U.S. Department of Justice, 1998



In the Rape in America study, 60% of the women who reported being raped were under 18 years old:

29.3% were less than 11 years old
32.3% were between 11 and 17
22.2% were between 18 and 24
7.1% were between 25 and 29
6.1% were older than 29
3.0% age was not available

Rape in America: A Report to the Nation, National Victim Center, 1992



Youths 12-17 are two to three times more likely to be sexually assaulted than adults.

National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000

Fuck it. Do your own huntin'

Google

And this has WHAT to do with how many abortions are the result of rape? Perhaps it somehow makes you feel better to vomit rape statistics all over the place, and you CLEARLY think you're entitled to shoehorn your personal trauma into any discussion you wish on the basis of "poor little victim me", but the topic here is ABORTION, not "Grace was raped, everyone shut up and genuflect to her suffering".

At this point, I don't care if I'm being mean or not. Your self-pity is on my last nerve, and you are WELL overdue for a swift kick in the ass to get over yourself.

 

[syrenn]

The baby's not your body

your catchphrase is bullshit

First you say it is now you say it is not. Can you please make up your mind? It either is a stand along thing or it is not. It is either part of a womans body in terms of she is the one living and breathing for it to keep it alive, or she is not. If she is not, then it should have no problems being taken out and put on a table at ANY stage of its gestation.

If it was in my body, it either is part of me, of which i have complete control, or it is not. If it isnot part of my body it should have no problem being outside of my body.

How hard is that for you to understand?

Just as you should have no problem surviving just fine in Siberia, regardless of being unprepared and unequipped to do so. Right?

Do i say not to assist the 4 week old cells once it is outside of its host environment? Do i say new born babies do not require assistance to survive? Do i say children do not need assistance to survive? No, i do not. Just as a baby needs assistance to survive in a new environment I would need assistance to survive in Siberia.

Again, feel free to give all the assistance to 4 week old tissue on a table you want. See if it survives.

If i was given all the assistance i wanted in Siberia...i would survive just fine.

 

[JBeukema]

if someone feels strongly about this issue, that's fine. but they need to keep those feelings away from anyone who isn't asking for their input....

Wrong. Society agreed long ago that just because Charles Manson and Ricardo Ramirez didn't think what they did was wrong didn't mean it was their choice to make.

Homicide has always been a social matter.

By your reasoning, the man who raped Grace shouldn't have been put in prison- after all, he never asked whether you think what he did was okay or not.

When your actions harm another person, it's no longer just your business. As soon as your acts cause harm to another, it becomes all our business.

I can tattoo, paint, burn, touch, and pierce my body all I want. I may not strap a bomb to it and harm other people when I set it off in Time Square.

no one has the right to, uninvited, impose their religion on others.

and, ultimately, isn't that what we're talking about?

No, we're talking about whether we are a civilized society or not. We're talking about whether raping Grace, killing children, burning a man's house down, or flying a plane into a building full of people is acceptable or not.

Is shooting you in the face okay?


If not, why not and and what moment did something change about your fundamental nature change that made killing you in cold blood go from being an okay thing to a not-okay thing?

Does my right to do as I will with or to my own body and property extend to acts which cause harm to another or does it not?

How old were you when killing you went from being an okay thing to a not-okay thing and why did it suddenly become wrong to kill you?
​

 

[Cecilie1200]

IMEURU, your reply, while heartfelt, is looking for blame somewhere. I can't speak for the OP, but for me being pro-life isn't about blaming the woman. You are absolutely right that it takes two to tango. It's both parents' fault if they don't think through the consequences. But the focus need not be on fault.

The focus should be on the biology. Some excellent things were said early on in this thread.

1. A baby is a human life
2. A baby, while inside the mother is separate from the mother
3. If left untouched, the child will grow to be viable. (the vast majority of the time)

I'm not religious at all - and my pro-life beliefs have nothing to do with religion especially. It's simply logical that abortion is murder once you realize the 3 facts above.

Are there special cases when the doctor thinks that the only medically safe course is to have an abortion? Yes. And that should be taken into account. A mother's immediate medical health is important too.

The problem is when abortion used like contraceptive - in the sense of fixing a "mistake" (not that any child should ever be seen as a mistake). Once fertilization occurs...there's no fixing the mistake except with murder.

IMEURU, please don't take my words as an attack on you. I'm speaking in the abstract. No woman should be hounded about abortion and treated evilly. I must, however, agree with those who say that if the child were 1 or 2 and it was killed...everyone would be up in arms.

I really wish humans had evolved so that the pregnancy stomach was clear...if that were the case, we wouldnt think of the baby as this "thing" that we can put out of our brains...but instead a living, breathing child that deserves protection.

No, Im not taking it as an attack. You are speaking to me in terms that make me human, had an abortion because I was the "one percent" due to rape. The other guy then asked if I wanted to be raped (again using it as a weapon on something I prefer to forget), and in general reliving what I already survived. All I said initially is, "having an abortion is NOT an easy choice". And choice it is. And no, its not easy.

Conerning the percentages of who gets an abortion and why is no longer being discussed anyway. Whats being discussed is when a fetus is considered a human being with rights. The net and the world at large ALL have differing views about that. Nobody is sure. They all go with their own gut instincts on how they feel about it themselves. Personal opinions. Personal choices of when the egg becomes human. For me...its prior to the heart being formed and beginning to pump....and the first brain waves forming circuits. I had my abortion as soon as I found out the results of the "invasion" (which was thrown in my face as an "inconvenience" to carry it because its "human" and I am a baby killer and can he shoot me in the face). All these words brought it all back. I got reamed by a few posters, accused of this and that, and made to feel all over again what I felt so many years ago. At first it hurt. Then I got pissed. Then I calmed down. Then I got pissed off more. Right now..Im at ease because for the first time, I have someone on ignore. NOW I can read what others think but that wont change what I did, why I did it or what my opinion is concerning when a seed planted becomes one with an egg which then becomes a human being.

Your desperate defensiveness and need to see ANYTHING anyone says that you don't like as a personal attack amounts to nothing more than you raping yourself all over again every single time.

I pity you, but that doesn't mean I'm going to surrender my right to have an opinion and state it freely to your obsessive victimhood.

You were raped. You aren't the only woman in the world who was. If you can't deal, don't expect the world to adjust itself to your self-pity. The alternative to you hearing things you don't like isn't for everyone else to "shut your fucking mouth" as you so charmingly told JB, but for YOU to remove your fucking self from the conversation.

Get help or get gone.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And furthermore...it matters not to me when it becomes human to my thinking. I didnt want it growing in my body. Period. And Id do it again.

Sooo...now that you have decided that his discussion is going to be all about you,is everyone just supposed to stop talking about it now or something since it uspets you??

Nope. Continue bickering amongst yourselves on when a seed entering an egg becomes human. Or start another Palin thread so the whole front of the board is thread after thread of the same subject. Whatever floats yer boat.

At least until the NEXT time you want to turn into a screeching virago telling everyone to "shut their fucking mouths", right?

 

[Cecilie1200]

So you think you have the right to eliminate people who get in your way?

Of course, that's what all people who support abortion think.

Youre damn fucking right I have the right to eliminate people I was forced to host in MY BODY.

Yes, and we can all tell how firmly you truly believe that by your foot-stomping, incoherent tantrums in here.

 

[JBeukema]

And furthermore...it matters not to me when it becomes human to my thinking. I didnt want it growing in my body. Period. And Id do it again.

Sooo...now that you have decided that his discussion is going to be all about you,is everyone just supposed to stop talking about it now or something since it uspets you??

Nope. Continue bickering amongst yourselves on when a seed entering an egg becomes human. Or start another Palin thread so the whole front of the board is thread after thread of the same subject. Whatever floats yer boat.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/161891-pro-life-vs-pro-choice.html

I wonder who started that thread

 

[Cecilie1200]

Im becoming very agitated and mean with this subject and I dont like being mean. Im off to find other news stories to discuss.

At least until the next time you decide to come back and start wailing, "I was raped! I'm a victim, so everyone has to SHUT UP! Stop saying things I don't want to hear! Abortion debates are ALL ABOUT ME! Bow before my towering suffering!"

At least we'll all be able to get back to some semblance of rational discussion for a little while.

 

[jillian]

Sooo...now that you have decided that his discussion is going to be all about you,is everyone just supposed to stop talking about it now or something since it uspets you??

Nope. Continue bickering amongst yourselves on when a seed entering an egg becomes human. Or start another Palin thread so the whole front of the board is thread after thread of the same subject. Whatever floats yer boat.

At least until the NEXT time you want to turn into a screeching virago telling everyone to "shut their fucking mouths", right?

is that your new debating tactic? lose an argument so call someone a screeching virago?

does that work?

eh... maybe it works on some people.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Why do you people have to lie? The baby never was your body and I never bought your bullshit line.

If I put you underwater and keep you there, you die. Same if I put you into a fire. Any human, at any stage of development, dies outside of the environment for which it is meant.

If you're not part of Earth's body, why can't you survive outside her atmosphere?

So you agree that it is a parasite, a parasite that requites the environment of a host. If it is not part of a womans body then it is something alien to herself inhabiting her womb.

Good to know you see it at last.

First of all, a fetus is more of a symbiote than a parasite. Second of all, it's just another example of your extreme dishonesty - the point of this thread - that you think YOU have the right to tell someone ELSE that it's good that they see that the baby isn't the mother's body, when YOU are the one who keeps trumpeting, "A woman has a right to do what she wants with her body".

Thanks for demonstrating yet again how your position is based on nothing but self-serving lies with all your flip-flopping and topic-hopping. "It's a woman's body; no, wait, it's a parasite and separate".

Pathetic.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Nope. Continue bickering amongst yourselves on when a seed entering an egg becomes human. Or start another Palin thread so the whole front of the board is thread after thread of the same subject. Whatever floats yer boat.

At least until the NEXT time you want to turn into a screeching virago telling everyone to "shut their fucking mouths", right?

is that your new debating tactic? lose an argument so call someone a screeching virago?

does that work?

eh... maybe it works on some people.

Only when that person is BEING a screeching virago. I realize the debating tactic of telling the truth is foreign to you, but that doesn't oblige me to justify it to you. Basically, it's the same procedure as when I tell you you're an ignorant liar: telling the truth personalized to the poster I'm addressing.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I've stipulated that the zygote/embryo/fetus is human.

I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me that relevant in the context of deciding the right or wrong, the legality or illegality,

of a 1st trimester abortion,

the use of RU486,

the use of the morning after pill,

the discarding of fertilized eggs at a fertility clinic.

Anyone? No one?

So you concur that from conception it is a human being. Good.

Now you want to know the 'right and wrong' of destroying that human being via:

abortion
RU486
discarding fertilized eggs at a fertility clinic
(I believe the morning after pill prevents conception)



It's been answered throughout this thread. So sad that you can't see the answer for yourself.

Try answering JB's question that's been asked of you ad nauseum.

no one is asking you the right and wrong of destroying a fetus. the question is when does government have the right to insert itself into a woman's body? and when do you get the right to make decisions for others?

if someone feels strongly about this issue, that's fine. but they need to keep those feelings away from anyone who isn't asking for their input.... same as with religion. everyone's entitled to their own. no one has the right to, uninvited, impose their religion on others.

and, ultimately, isn't that what we're talking about?

No, that's not what he's asking. Abortion IS legal and he knows it. His 'legal or illegal' question has been answered several times in this thread he just can't fathom that 'pro-lifers', for the most part, aren't interested in punishing the woman and he equates THAT to us not really believing that what grows inside the womb really is a person.

He is asking about the 'right or wrong' of removing said human being via those methods. The topic may have started with 'pro-choice' and 'pro-life' but has turned, as it always does, into what actually grows inside of the womb. And, if he is asking about government intervention? Why would anyone bother answering him when he flat out refuses to answer questions?

 

[Gadawg73]

I have still not seen any evidence of anyone being "pro abortion" and a definitive defintion of what "pro abortion" is.

 

[AllieBaba]

The virago thing is just an observation; I don't see that it is used to justify any argument except perhaps that Grace is over the top emotional on this topic.