Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[AllieBaba]

Of course that's what he means.

He also thinks poor mothers are too stupid to make the choice to give an unwanted child up for adoption.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Abortion is all about flushing bad decisions down the drain.

So what?

Criminalizing abortion is about sending women to prison for the rest of their lives for having taken some pills that brought about the death of a small group of cells that happen to contain human DNA.

Is your body not a mere collection of cells even today?

It's not a SMALL collection, though. Apparently, human beings are defined by their size. Who knew?

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's not about dead babies. Nobody wants to see dead babies. What the right to life groups all have in common is they are usually headed up by men. Men that want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen. It's not about abortion as much as it is about taking away the rights we women have fought so hard to achieve. Up until 1920 a woman was little more than chattle and could be dismissed and thrown out with the garbage or bartered like cattle. We've come a long way and not the Government nor anybody else needs to concern themselves with my bush! I'm managing fine, thank you.
What a woman does with her body is between her, her doctor and her God. It is nobody elses business.

As I suspected. Abortion is really all about hatred of men (as well as hatred of children, who are really just living shackles used by men to keep women down). Explains why the most vocal supporters of abortion are ugly lesbian feminazis.

Shockingly, Gloria Steinem, all women don't agree with you, all women don't hate and fear men, and all women don't want abortion on demand to be legal. In other words, stop speaking for me if you're going to be saying such utter bullshit.

 

[Cecilie1200]

]
Also, there are two (or more) bodies involved in every abortion. The mother and at least one of her offspring. The body of the offspring is not hers nor is its life.

Immie

Nor does the body of the woman belong to the offspring to do with as it pleases. Again, anytime you can remove the offspring and find an alternative incubation method, feel free to outlaw abortion.

Until then, direct your energies at caring for the living and preventing unwanted pregnancy.

Your vision of women as helpless, defenseless victims of Machiavellian fetuses, actively and maliciously plotting and manipulating to enslave them, alternately disturbs me and makes me laugh my ass off at you.

Seriously, get some therapy for this visceral fear and hatred you have of children and pregnancy. It's just not healthy.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Pregnancy is probably the one and only medical condition that is 100% avoidable.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A fetus is not a child

Yes, it is.

Child: offspring; young human

Why do you have to lie about what you advocate unless you know it's inexcusable?




1
a : an unborn or recently born person b dialect : a female infant

2
a : a young person especially between infancy and youth b : a childlike or childish person c : a person not yet of age

3
usually childe archaic : a youth of noble birth

4
a : a son or daughter of human parents b : descendant

5
: one strongly influenced by another or by a place or state of affairs

6
: product, result <barbed wire … is truly a child of the plains — W. P. Webb>

— child·less adjective
— child·less·ness noun
— with child : pregnant

Child - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Why can't you people ever be honest?

Maybe they can't find a condom or foam or the pill

Yet they can find an abortionist?

because they have been told that only sluts and whores have sex and since they aren't sluts and whores planning to have sex, they don't need them?

They don't plan to have sex, but they're sexually active?

Whycome you and your ilk can always find someone to kill your baby, but you can't find a condom?

Unplanned sex? All I can say is if you're really THAT clumsy that you routinely fall down and land on a penis, you need to be on birth control even more than women who plan to have sex.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Watching "It's Good to be President" on The History Channel, looks like the only U.S. Presidents we've had were JFK, LBJ, Ford, Clinton and Obama.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's not about dead babies. Nobody wants to see dead babies. What the right to life groups all have in common is they are usually headed up by men. Men that want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen. It's not about abortion as much as it is about taking away the rights we women have fought so hard to achieve. Up until 1920 a woman was little more than chattle and could be dismissed and thrown out with the garbage or bartered like cattle. We've come a long way and not the Government nor anybody else needs to concern themselves with my bush! I'm managing fine, thank you.
What a woman does with her body is between her, her doctor and her God. It is nobody elses business.

Please cite where you get your information in regards to what men want. Because I think you are either dead wrong or not being honest.

Also, there are two (or more) bodies involved in every abortion. The mother and at least one of her offspring. The body of the offspring is not hers nor is its life.

Immie

Immie, glad you asked that. Here's a partial list of the good people (mostly men) that want to stop abortion.


United States
The majority of anti-abortion violence has been committed in the United States of America.[citation needed]

[edit] Murders In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[6][7]

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.[/COLOR

]October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingAccording to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[9] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:

August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.

December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.

October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.

January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.

Arson, bombing, and property crimeAccording to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[9] The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.[13] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[14] Incidents have included:

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."

May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.

October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison

May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved. This was the second arson at the clinic.

September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.

June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.

July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.

December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.


September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.

April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building.

May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.

January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.


Anthrax threats'

The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.[edit]

Outside the United States

Outside of the United States, known incidents of anti-abortion violence were committed in Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

[edit] AustraliaJuly 16, 2001: Steven Rogers, a security guard at a clinic in Melbourne, Australia was shot in the chest and killed by Peter James Knight. Knight was charged and was sentenced to life in prison on November 19, 2002.

January 6, 2009: A firebombing using Molotov cocktails was attempted at a medical clinic in Mosman Park, Western Australia. Faulty construction of the bombs limited damage to a single external burnt area, though if successful damage would have been severe. It is believed that the inviduals who made the attack were responsible for graffiti "baby killers" on the site, indicating a pro-life reason for the attack. The site turned out to in fact not be an abortion clinic, though the attackers most likely were not aware of this.

[edit] Canada[edit] Attempted murder

Violence has also occurred in Canada, where three doctors have been attacked to date. There is speculation that the timing of the shootings is related to the Canadian observance of Remembrance Day. The physicians were part of pattern of attacks, which targeted providers in Canada and upstate New York, including Dr. Barnett Slepian. All victims were shot in their homes with a rifle, at dusk, in late October or early November. James Kopp was charged with the murder of Dr. Slepian and the attempted murder of Dr. Short; he is suspected of having committed the other shootings as well.[10][11]

November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.

November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.

November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.

July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unidentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.
[edit] Bombing and property damage

February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.[36]
May 18, 1992: A Toronto clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.[37]
[edit] New Zealand

In 1999 Graeme White was found guilty and jailed for tunneling into an abortion clinic in a failed attempt to blow it up.

I could list the names and crimes of every woman on death row in this country. Does that make THEM representative of all WOMEN and what they think, feel, and want?

Epic fail. You're an embarassment to uteruses everywhere.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You chose to have sex. You accepted the risk of pregnancy.

This is where you are wrong. Just because I chose to have sex does not mean I have accepted the risk of pregnancy, anymore than leaving my door unlocked means I have accepted the risk of home invasion and cannot kill to defend it.

My bottom line remains the same. I will use deadly force to protect my body and my property.

If you're running around fucking and you HAVEN'T accepted the risks that go with it, then you're a moron who shouldn't be allowed out without a keeper.

The universe doesn't give do-overs because you choose to wander around careless, uninformed, and clueless. Just because you didn't bother to find out the risks doesn't mean you didn't still take them.

And unplanned fetus = home invader? Seriously? You need industrial-strength therapy STAT.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The marketing slogan is "Abortion: safe, legal and rare". The problem is that they don't want it rare. By the way, rare is a subjective term. For me, rare would be 50 per year. For them, 5 million a year could be "rare".

The actual rate is 1.2 million a year and I'm guessing they aren't saying it's "rare" yet. That is less than 3% of the population.

The very worst parent to have is one that doesn't want you. Why advocate for that kind of parenting?

Beats advocating for the kind of parenting where you "take care of" your children by kakking them?

 

[Shadow]

A fetus is not a child

Yes, it is.

Child: offspring; young human

Why do you have to lie about what you advocate unless you know it's inexcusable?




1
a : an unborn or recently born person b dialect : a female infant

2
a : a young person especially between infancy and youth b : a childlike or childish person c : a person not yet of age

3
usually childe archaic : a youth of noble birth

4
a : a son or daughter of human parents b : descendant

5
: one strongly influenced by another or by a place or state of affairs

6
: product, result <barbed wire &#8230; is truly a child of the plains &#8212; W. P. Webb>

&#8212; child·less adjective
&#8212; child·less·ness noun
&#8212; with child : pregnant

Child - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Why can't you people ever be honest?

Yet they can find an abortionist?

because they have been told that only sluts and whores have sex and since they aren't sluts and whores planning to have sex, they don't need them?

They don't plan to have sex, but they're sexually active?

Whycome you and your ilk can always find someone to kill your baby, but you can't find a condom?

Unplanned sex? All I can say is if you're really THAT clumsy that you routinely fall down and land on a penis, you need to be on birth control even more than women who plan to have sex.

And they make it easy for the forgetful these days too. Go get a birth control shot every 3 months and you are good to go (works great for those prown fall on penises too).

 

[Cecilie1200]

Immie, glad you asked that. Here's a partial list of the good people (mostly men) that want to stop abortion.


United States
The majority of anti-abortion violence has been committed in the United States of America.[citation needed]

[edit] Murders In the U.S., violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[6][7]

March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.

December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.

January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.[/COLOR

]October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as Tiller served as an usher at church in Wichita, Kansas[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and kidnappingAccording to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[9] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:

August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.

December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.

October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.

January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.

Arson, bombing, and property crimeAccording to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[9] The New York Times also cites over one hundred clinic bombings and incidents of arson, over three hundred invasions, and over four hundred incidents of vandalism between 1978 and 1993.[13] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[14] Incidents have included:

December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."

May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.

October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison

May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire resulted in several thousand dollars' worth of damage. The case remains unsolved. This was the second arson at the clinic.

September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.

June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.

July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.

December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.


September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.

April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building.

May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.

January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.


Anthrax threats'

The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.

November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.[edit]

Outside the United States

Outside of the United States, known incidents of anti-abortion violence were committed in Australia, Canada and New Zealand.

[edit] AustraliaJuly 16, 2001: Steven Rogers, a security guard at a clinic in Melbourne, Australia was shot in the chest and killed by Peter James Knight. Knight was charged and was sentenced to life in prison on November 19, 2002.

January 6, 2009: A firebombing using Molotov cocktails was attempted at a medical clinic in Mosman Park, Western Australia. Faulty construction of the bombs limited damage to a single external burnt area, though if successful damage would have been severe. It is believed that the inviduals who made the attack were responsible for graffiti "baby killers" on the site, indicating a pro-life reason for the attack. The site turned out to in fact not be an abortion clinic, though the attackers most likely were not aware of this.

[edit] Canada[edit] Attempted murder

Violence has also occurred in Canada, where three doctors have been attacked to date. There is speculation that the timing of the shootings is related to the Canadian observance of Remembrance Day. The physicians were part of pattern of attacks, which targeted providers in Canada and upstate New York, including Dr. Barnett Slepian. All victims were shot in their homes with a rifle, at dusk, in late October or early November. James Kopp was charged with the murder of Dr. Slepian and the attempted murder of Dr. Short; he is suspected of having committed the other shootings as well.[10][11]

November 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis of Vancouver, British Columbia was shot.

November 10, 1995: Dr. Hugh Short of Ancaster, Ontario was shot.

November 11, 1997: Dr. Jack Fainman of Winnipeg, Manitoba was shot.

July 11, 2000: Dr. Romalis was stabbed by an unidentified assailant in the lobby of his clinic.
[edit] Bombing and property damage

February 25, 1990: Two men broke into a clinic in Vancouver and destroyed $C30,000 worth of medical equipment with crowbars.[36]
May 18, 1992: A Toronto clinic operated by Henry Morgentaler was firebombed, causing the entire front wall of the building to collapse.[37]
[edit] New Zealand

In 1999 Graeme White was found guilty and jailed for tunneling into an abortion clinic in a failed attempt to blow it up.

Thanks CS, but is there anything in that list (I only skimmed it) that states as you have said that these men want to, (let me quote you specifically)

want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen

?

Who claims that abortion is a woman's right? What gives anyone the right to kill an innocent human being? I realize that our courts have found an unwritten "right to privacy" and from there have manufactured a right to kill, but I do not recognize a right to kill a human being in that right to privacy or in any right, written or non-written, on the face of the earth.

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life". That is not to elevate the so-called pro-life movement but rather to state that those who resort to violence do not appear to advocate a true right to life.

You claim an unwritten right. What prevents me from claiming the right to do anything on earth (say blowing smoke in Anguille's face whenever I want... if you don't know her yet, that would tick her off) that I feel I want to do and then claim that interference in that right is a violation of my right to privacy?

Immie

All good points Immy but let me ask you this. Have you ever had an abortion? I have. I was 15 years old and my father insisted on it. It wasn't legal back then and it was hell on earth. I had an actual doctor in attendance who could have lost his medical licence for 'helping us out' and it created a rift between my family and I that wasn't resolved for decades. I became a 'womens rights' advocate on that very day and I will never change. There is no way to describe the pain and humiliation and misery I suffered that day and for whatever reason I hope no woman ever has to again. The reasons aren't important.

Is there any particular reason that you are now vomiting your life story all over us? Is it because you've mistaken us for your group therapy session? Or is it that you think your anecdotal sob story somehow trumps logical, rational thought and lets you win the argument without presenting a good argument?

I dunno what Immy is going to say about this (he's a nicer person than I am), but my opinion of your life and your choices (and yes, you DID ask by rubbing our noses in your shit uninvited, so suck it up) is that everything anyone here has said in the general and abstract concerning abortion and those who have them DOES apply to you every single iota, and you STILL are not invited to present yourself as representing other women, which includes me. You're not a "women's rights advocate", you're an abortion advocate. Worse, you're an "I need to justify my crappy life decisions to myself" advocate. Pitiful.

I AM impressed by how you tell us how painful and miserable the experience was, and your solution is to advocate for even more women to go through it. Are you really so pig-stupid as to think the problem was that it was illegal, and not that it was an ABORTION?

You're still an embarassment to uteruses everywhere.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Sorry, but that is where you are wrong... on both counts. You have accepted the risk both of pregnancy and of a home invasion. You leaving the door unlocked is accepting the risk that you believe is minimal of having your home invaded. You are in fact accepting and taking that risk.

The best argument you can make her is that abortion is the insurance that you have taken out to combat the risk that you have accepted when you have sex. And that is what makes abortion in these cases a matter of convenience.

Immie

And having a gun in my home is my insurance against home invasion. When I shoot the intruder, is it simply a "matter of convenience"?

Why do you and others insist on belittling the process of pregnancy, delivery and raising a child? Have you ever delivered a child, Immie? Ever risked stroke or eclampsia? Ever had to vomit 6 times a day for 9 months, forcing your employer to find someone that didn't need to do that? I have. Twice. My risk to assume and if I hadn't been willing to go through that, I should have been able to remove the cause. It's my body. I don't owe it to anyone. Without regard to biology or anyones moral rigidity.

It's always so easy to pass moral judgement on people when you aren't personally involved.

It's so easy to rail against moral judgement when you don't bother to employ any yourself.

It's also easy to assume that you're the only one for whom a topic is personal. But guess what? I don't have to be a murderer for the issue of murder to be personal and important to me. I don't have to be an armed robber to care about armed robbery laws. And I don't have to kill babies to take baby-killing personally.

Those of us who both exercise moral judgement and don't consider it to be an epithet (Really, what kind of person thinks "you made a moral judgement" to be an INSULT?) are capable of considering the killing of human beings to be personal simply because we ARE human beings.

 

[Cecilie1200]

All good points Immy but let me ask you this. Have you ever had an abortion? I have. I was 15 years old and my father insisted on it. It wasn't legal back then and it was hell on earth. I had an actual doctor in attendance who could have lost his medical licence for 'helping us out' and it created a rift between my family and I that wasn't resolved for decades. I became a 'womens rights' advocate on that very day and I will never change. There is no way to describe the pain and humiliation and misery I suffered that day and for whatever reason I hope no woman ever has to again. The reasons aren't important.

Have I ever had an abortion? I have to confess. I am one of those evil men that you think "want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen", so, no I have never had an abortion. Nor has my wife, nor either one of my two daughters. I have I will confess though much to my shame, counseled a friend of my wife who called me for advice. I told her that she should do what she felt was in her best interest. This was before I became "pro-life". She did and she has not spoken to us since.

If you don't mind, I would prefer not to comment on the rest of this post. Nothing I can say will sound right and I don't particularly care to have you "not speak to me since". Make sense?

Immie

Fair enough. So I will leave you with this. Until you grow a vagina of your own keep your nose out of mine.

Really hard to keep our noses out of your vagina when you essentially stripped down, climbed on the table, and spread your legs for us to see it.

Here's a thought. If you don't want people to have opinions about your business, keep your business to yourself.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Also, for the record, I do not recognize those men (all of whom I believe resorted to violence) as being what I would consider "pro-life".

Well of course there is always the possibilty they just liked blowing things up and killed for the fun of it but I wouldn't try to push that idea past any intelligent thinking people.

No, my point is that you can not be "pro-life" and then go out an kill or attempt to kill people you don't agree with. Stopping them through force of law is one thing. Stopping their lives is in a whole other galaxy.

Immie

Well you wouldn't think so, would you?? But you know what happens when people decide they know whats best for everybody else.

They abort them?

 

[Cecilie1200]

And having a gun in my home is my insurance against home invasion. When I shoot the intruder, is it simply a "matter of convenience"?

Why do you and others insist on belittling the process of pregnancy, delivery and raising a child? Have you ever delivered a child, Immie? Ever risked stroke or eclampsia? Ever had to vomit 6 times a day for 9 months, forcing your employer to find someone that didn't need to do that? I have. Twice. My risk to assume and if I hadn't been willing to go through that, I should have been able to remove the cause. It's my body. I don't owe it to anyone. Without regard to biology or anyones moral rigidity.

No, if you were not willing to go through that, you should not have had intercourse. There are other ways to sexually gratify your partner without actually having intercourse. You made your choice the moment you allowed your partner entry into your body.

Man! Did that sound graphic or what? Sorry.

Immie

Now THAT sounds like a man, fer sure!! Never mind YOU, just don't leave MY needs unattended. LOL

I believe he meant that to go both ways. It wasn't the best grammar on his part, but I find it very telling that you automatically jumped to such a man-hating interpretation.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Have I ever had an abortion? I have to confess. I am one of those evil men that you think "want to rescind women's rights and send us all back to the kitchen", so, no I have never had an abortion. Nor has my wife, nor either one of my two daughters. I have I will confess though much to my shame, counseled a friend of my wife who called me for advice. I told her that she should do what she felt was in her best interest. This was before I became "pro-life". She did and she has not spoken to us since.

If you don't mind, I would prefer not to comment on the rest of this post. Nothing I can say will sound right and I don't particularly care to have you "not speak to me since". Make sense?
Immie

Fair enough. So I will leave you with this. Until you grow a vagina of your own keep your nose out of mine.

If you don't mind, I would prefer not to comment on the rest of this post. Nothing I can say will sound right and I don't particularly care to have you "not speak to me since". Make sense?


PS, the OP accused us of not being honest. I just laid a weeks worth of honesty on you folks and you act like it's a dead animal carcass. Puleeze.
Let me know when you really wanna talk turkey as opposed to mouthing platitudes you can't back up with experience.

He meant be honest about the facts, not overshare your life story with total strangers.

Let me know when you want to talk facts, not play the "I'm a victim, so I win!" card.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Like I said before, I support the RIGHT if not the actual act of terminating a pregnancy. YOU are passing judgement on an entire segment of the population without ever having had the unhappy misfortune to find yourself in such dire straights. I wonder if being a woman would neutralize your thinking? Or maybe make you think at all? It's easy to judge when you have no possibility of ever having to make such a decision. Wish I had that kind of ecclesiastical white-out at my disposal. (wink)

Ahh, but as you know there are those women who think it is there right to tell other women what to do when it comes to the legal right to choose abortion or not. Hell, there are women who feel it is their moral obligation as decreed by GOD (via their church leader) to tell women not to have pre-marital sex, and NOT to use contraception...EVER.

What I find hysterical are the "statistics" used on both sides of the aisle....one says abortion decreases crime, the other says opposite....forget the FACT that a lousy economy coupled with racism, sexism, a competitive society with limited resources and opportunities, a fractured educational system...are heavy contributing factors to crime rise and falling, especially among the poor.

Bottom line: IMHO, if this society were to stop the misogynist BS and treat sex education they way they treat indoctrinating kids about sports stats....and treated contraception to teenagers like they do junior driver's licenses and military recruitment...then maybe one day we'll live in a world were abortion is indeed a rarity. Of course, you have to clean up poverty, corruption and racism too. Oh well, I guess I won't live to see it.

Until then, it's a choice, and a private one.

Well said TL.

One of the reasons I tried to avoid CS's honesty was because I do believe it is a private decision. I do not like to sound like I am condemning anyone for their choice. I'll argue with them about their viewpoint... but, when CS became honest, then anything and everything I say from that point on begins to sound judgmental. At that point, I seemed to be damned if I do and damned if I don't discuss it.

I have my beliefs about the issue and if I had my choice in the matter, both sides would be working together to make abortion rare. Both sides need to agree to come together and brainstorm on the issue. They need to be willing to work together. Unfortunately, the two parties won't allow that to happen.

Immie

See, that's why people on the left play the "I'm a victim" card: so that nice people will feel too awkward and mean, and will silence themselves and leave the debate field to them.

The main reason I get so hostile and "eat them alive" when broads like Candy and Grace start spewing their life garbage on us - aside from the fact that it makes me feel violated - is because I don't like tactics designed to not only deprive people of their right to have and voice an opinion, but designed to convince them to deprive themselves. Oh, and because I'm not a nice person, I feel compelled to take up the slack for those who are.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Ahh, but as you know there are those women who think it is there right to tell other women what to do when it comes to the legal right to choose abortion or not. Hell, there are women who feel it is their moral obligation as decreed by GOD (via their church leader) to tell women not to have pre-marital sex, and NOT to use contraception...EVER.

What I find hysterical are the "statistics" used on both sides of the aisle....one says abortion decreases crime, the other says opposite....forget the FACT that a lousy economy coupled with racism, sexism, a competitive society with limited resources and opportunities, a fractured educational system...are heavy contributing factors to crime rise and falling, especially among the poor.

Bottom line: IMHO, if this society were to stop the misogynist BS and treat sex education they way they treat indoctrinating kids about sports stats....and treated contraception to teenagers like they do junior driver's licenses and military recruitment...then maybe one day we'll live in a world were abortion is indeed a rarity. Of course, you have to clean up poverty, corruption and racism too. Oh well, I guess I won't live to see it.

Until then, it's a choice, and a private one.

Well said TL.

One of the reasons I tried to avoid CS's honesty was because I do believe it is a private decision. I do not like to sound like I am condemning anyone for their choice. I'll argue with them about their viewpoint... but, when CS became honest, then anything and everything I say from that point on begins to sound judgmental. At that point, I seemed to be damned if I do and damned if I don't discuss it.

I have my beliefs about the issue and if I had my choice in the matter, both sides would be working together to make abortion rare. Both sides need to agree to come together and brainstorm on the issue. They need to be willing to work together. Unfortunately, the two parties won't allow that to happen.

Immie

In a perfect world, Immy. Which, unfortunately we'll never see. Life is messy. And full of unpopular decisions that should NOT be hampered by some windbag politician or some 'I know better than you so SHUT UP' wanker that has no idea where the reality of the situation lies.

You mean like you, with your "I had an abortion, and YOU don't even have a vagina, so don't comment" rap you were aiming at Immie earlier?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Immy, again you are commenting on ground you've never trodded. I've been to planned parenthood before and do you know what was the first thing they told those girls? Abortion is NOT an acceptable form of birth control. The counseling was first rate and there were all manner of alternatives offered. Nibody was 'rushed' anywhere. You need to limit your comments to subjects you are familiar with. Just sayin.

They also deny that choosing to abort because the mother is not ready for a child is birth control. What would you call it if not "birth control"? Oh wait, I know... Family Planning!

Immie

I always thought 'family planning' sounded like what you do when you see a genetic counselor.

It is, but not the way you think. See, genetic counseling is basically an attempt for them to scare the shit out of you and try to convince you to have an abortion if there's the slightest thing wrong with the baby at all.

I think I mentioned on the board before that I had to agree to "genetic counseling" in order to have an amniocentesis with my last child. All it really amounted to was the woman lecturing me and my husband in EXCRUCIATING detail about all the horrible things that could POSSIBLY be wrong with my baby, and how he'd be better off dead if they found any of them, before giving me the test and then sending me home to worry for two weeks until the results came in.

So yeah, "family planning" as the abortionists use it and "genetic counseling" are essentially the same thing.