Why Do Atheists Misrepresent Biblical Law as Current Law?

[sealybobo]

New KJV: Exodus 20:1-17 - NKJV Bible - And God spoke all these words, saying:...

Thou shall not murder.

The 17 commandments?

10! Ten Commandments!

LOL

 

[AsherN]

The 17 commandments?

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10! Ten Commandments!

LOL

I think it reflects the debate about exactly what the first is. And the chapter is not strictly only the 10 commandments

 

[hobelim]

Analogies aren't really that complicated. I'm talking about the specific requirements for eternal bliss vs eternal damnation in a lake of fire. Seems a loving god wouldn't be very arbetrary in those requirements for those he cared about, don't you think?

Yes I agree.. But there is nothing arbitrary about cause and effect, nothing capricious or petty in the divine commands. The law is not about crime and so eternal condemnation is not about punishment, it is about the fact that certain behaviors and beliefs will forever be under the condemnation of God because of the deleterious effect it has on people and society. Those who set aside those commands have no one but themselves to blame for their suffering and as far as hell goes, some of the best times of my life were spent in hell central partying with the damned.

So much for God being a capricious and petty cold hearted and ruthless meanie.....

You seem to have confused church doctrines and dogma with what is actually written and conveyed in a strange hitherto unknown figurative language that remains above your grasp.

 

[hobelim]

True.

Even while the Law existed, only Israel lived under its jurisdiction. Not Assyria, not Rome, not the Chaldeans, not Babylon, not Egypt, not anyone except ethnic Israel. Not even Christians later on were subject to it as the age of the Law was becoming obsolete (except Jewish converts for a short while, as Jesus commanded them to until its collapse).

The law will never become obsolete. What became obsolete after the revelation that came into this world through the person of Jesus Christ was the wrong way to follow it, not the law itself.

 

[SweetSue92]

That's an interesting take on the subject. What was fulfilled to make it Ok to eat pork or shellfish after a certain point?

Jesus proclaimed in both Matthew and Mark that it is not what goes into the body but what comes out of the heart that defiles. This laid the groundwork for the age of grace, as we call it. So you might say the era of Law primacy had been fulfilled to be replaced by a new era of grace.

 

[BULLDOG]

Quite right. Modern Christians have no business assigning their own meaning to the phrase heaven and earth.

And what makes you think Jesus was referring to an eternal heaven and the planet earth? Where does he say that that is what heaven and earth are?

The concept of heaven and earth were well defined for people of his time. There was no ambiguity, and it would have very unlike him to use unfamiliar terms without some sort of indication of what he meant. There was never any indication of him trying to trick his followers, or misrepresent his words.

 

[SweetSue92]

The concept of heaven and earth were well defined for people of his time. There was no ambiguity, and it would have very unlike him to use unfamiliar terms without some sort of indication of what he meant. There was never any indication of him trying to trick his followers, or misrepresent his words.

You are correct on this. To believe Jesus meant "heaven and earth" as some "powers that be" is a really tortured rendering.

He didn't.

 

[BULLDOG]

Why don't you read the writings of Paul to find out?

Paul? You mean the guy that contradicted Jesus' teachings countless times? First you gotta decide if Jesus is the final authority or Paul. With their widely differing beliefs, it can't be both.

 

[Batcat]

Because one of the main premises of Christianity is that the Bible is the law. There was no provision made for anmmendments, like our constitution has. If it was law in Biblical times, presumably, it is law today. If I am wrong, please link to any ammendments to what the Bible requires.

These articles might help explain the fact that not all of the 613 laws mentioned in the old Testament do not apply today.

8 Covenants in the Bible and What They Mean for You Personally Today — Beautiful Christian Life

God always keeps his promises. Here is a brief explanation of the 8 significant covenants of the Bible—and what each one means for you personally today.

www.beautifulchristianlife.com

Some Christians focus on something called dispensations,

The seven dispensations – What are they?

The seven dispensations – What are they? What are the seven common dispensations in dispensationalism? What dispensations does the Bible describe?

www.compellingtruth.org

How Does the Old Testament Law Apply to Christians Today?

As New Testament Christians in the New Covenant, which commands or moral principles are obligatory and would apply regardless of the covenants because they are universal morals that transcend the Mosaic Law.

www.str.org

What is the one unforgivable sin?

What is the Unforgivable Sin?

If our salvation is secure, how can there be an unpardonable sin?

faithhub.net

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/unforgivable-sin/

 

[JoeBlow]

These articles might help explain the fact that not all of the 613 laws mentioned in the old Testament do not apply today.

8 Covenants in the Bible and What They Mean for You Personally Today — Beautiful Christian Life

God always keeps his promises. Here is a brief explanation of the 8 significant covenants of the Bible—and what each one means for you personally today.

www.beautifulchristianlife.com

Some Christians focus on something called dispensations,

The seven dispensations – What are they?

The seven dispensations – What are they? What are the seven common dispensations in dispensationalism? What dispensations does the Bible describe?

www.compellingtruth.org

How Does the Old Testament Law Apply to Christians Today?

As New Testament Christians in the New Covenant, which commands or moral principles are obligatory and would apply regardless of the covenants because they are universal morals that transcend the Mosaic Law.

www.str.org

What is the one unforgivable sin?

What is the Unforgivable Sin?

If our salvation is secure, how can there be an unpardonable sin?

faithhub.net

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/unforgivable-sin/

So it's like a menu, pick and choose what you want and ignore the rest. Got it.

 

[SweetSue92]

Paul? You mean the guy that contradicted Jesus' teachings countless times? First you gotta decide if Jesus is the final authority or Paul. With their widely differing beliefs, it can't be both.

Examples please.

 

[BULLDOG]

Yes I agree.. But there is nothing arbitrary about cause and effect, nothing capricious or petty in the divine commands. The law is not about crime and so eternal condemnation is not about punishment, it is about the fact that certain behaviors and beliefs will forever be under the condemnation of God because of the deleterious effect it has on people and society. Those who set aside those commands have no one but themselves to blame for their suffering and as far as hell goes, some of the best times of my life were spent in hell central partying with the damned.

So much for God being a capricious and petty cold hearted and ruthless meanie.....

You seem to have confused church doctrines and dogma with what is actually written and conveyed in a strange hitherto unknown figurative language that remains above your grasp.

Church doctrines and dogma vary widely from what is actually written in the bible. Since this discussion is about the beliefs of today's Christianity, it makes sense to discuss how all the rules and commandments are viewed by today's Christians, and why.

 

[BULLDOG]

Jesus proclaimed in both Matthew and Mark that it is not what goes into the body but what comes out of the heart that defiles. This laid the groundwork for the age of grace, as we call it. So you might say the era of Law primacy had been fulfilled to be replaced by a new era of grace.

Cool. To coinside with your bedtime example, that would mean something had to change to make the previous law fulfilled. Was mankind just old enough to eat shellfish and pork at that point? Was that the only law to change, or were there others? When? Why?

 

[BULLDOG]

You are correct on this. To believe Jesus meant "heaven and earth" as some "powers that be" is a really tortured rendering.

He didn't.

Not nearly as torture as the crap lots of religous nuts come up with.

 

[BULLDOG]

Examples please.

Too many to list. If you are interested, you can google it.

 

[alang1216]

You do know why they are chopping off heads? Because they are Christian, Jewish, gay...Most people say we are a secular nation. We also execute when there is a capital murder, not because they are gay, Jewish or Christian or Muslim.

I note you didn't include race along with religion as things we don't use to determine who gets capital punishment.

And, why aren't those billions of Muslims not stopping the killers?

You mean the Turks, Iranian, and Iraqis who fought ISIS?

 

[norwegen]

The concept of heaven and earth were well defined for people of his time. There was no ambiguity, and it would have very unlike him to use unfamiliar terms without some sort of indication of what he meant. There was never any indication of him trying to trick his followers, or misrepresent his words.

Yes, indeed, the ancients understood the expression. You're very wise not to inject modern Western ideas into the ancient Near East paradigm.

You're with Josephus, who, being of that ancient house, also knew what it meant:

As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars, the workmanship of which was the very same with that of the rest; and they stood upon the like bases with them, each a small matter distant from his fellow. Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests. However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world: for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a Heaven peculiar to God; but the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only. (Antiquities 3.6.4)​

The temple was a type and shadow of the “system of the world.” It was heaven, peculiar to God and sea and land, peculiar to men.

When Jews spoke of heaven and earth, they spoke of the temple. It was just a fact of daily life. “Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth,” Isaiah called out to Israel as he addressed the people in Chapter 1 (v 2). The Song of Moses begins the same way for the benefit of the whole assembly of Israel (Dt 31:30-32:1). In both cases, when the speaker addresses heaven and earth, he addresses flesh-and-blood human beings – the temple aristocracy and the sea of people under its umbrella.

The problem was this ancient heaven and earth were corrupt. Isaiah, for example, mentions the denizens of this corrupt temple being gathered like prisoners in a pit, trapped in the city to suffer their fate (Is 24:22).

Then Jesus comes to put this heaven and earth under his feet; that is, the ruling places, the thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities (Col 1:16).

Peter presents a conundrum for the contemporary Christian who believes that heaven and earth was an expression that did not pertain to the temple and its jurisdiction:

But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. (2 Pt 3:7)​

If God’s heaven is eternal, then it must be perfect; it cannot be subject to judgment and slated for incineration. Such a notion counters the popular Christian conception of heaven. The temple that existed in Peter’s day, on the other hand, was judged and set ablaze, no doubt shortly after Peter wrote this letter. The godly kingdom did not suffer the judgment, but the temple system did.

The first-century Jewish sentiments of Jesus and Peter are reminiscent of those of the prophet Isaiah in reference to the dissolution of Babylon’s heaven and earth, or jurisdiction over Israel:

​

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth,​

and the former things shall not be remembered​

or come into mind.​

But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create;​

for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy,​

and her people to be a gladness. (Is 65:17-18)​

​

Yes, indeed, just like Josephus and the other Jews of the temple era, you have it figured out. You should challenge some of these modern day Christians to find examples of heaven and earth being strictly a spiritual abode and a rocky planet. I have. It's painful to watch, and sometimes funny.

 

[Cougarbear]

God, you're ignorant. They have capital punishment but for crimes not for being Christian, Jewish or gay. Your lies are typical.

You have to be kidding. We watched Muslims chopping off the heads of Christians, gays and Jews on the internet for the reason they were Christian, gay and Jewish. Your ignorance and lack of knowledge is astounding. What a troll.

 

[Cougarbear]

I note you didn't include race along with religion as things we don't use to determine who gets capital punishment.


You mean the Turks, Iranian, and Iraqis who fought ISIS?

So? I have to list everything for you liberal BLM idiots to be happy? I don't remember blacks being beheaded for being black, do you? Nope. Racebaiter.

 

[Batcat]

So it's like a menu, pick and choose what you want and ignore the rest. Got it.

Following the Ten Commandments might be a good idea but many Christians believe you don’t get to heaven by works but by faith.