Why do Blue States lead in Education and Standard of Living?

[editec]

This thread is the exact reason why I rarely post anymore. We have a massive collection of fools arguing for the same losing arguments, all in the name of their political parties.

It is rather astounding isn't it?

This latest economic disaster was so overwhelming that the master class actually had to open up the hood of the economy's engine to show us the evil mechanics of their cozy banking system which is designed to keep us all ever in debt, and STILL these people aren't getting it.

When I read former Bushites on this board patiently explaining to me that BUSH II is a socialist (!!?!!) I realize that nothing short of the Gestapo kicking in their doors and abducting their children to sell them into bondage will wake these faith-based neo-cons and uber liberal supporters up.

 

[bannedgunner]

The reason blue states have a higher standard of living, IF THEY DO, is because they have more elitists with higher incomes than those who live in red states, where people actually work for their income.

They don't know the meaning of the word work down south. Red States
take more per dollar in taxes then the give out, Blue state give more
per dollar to feed the farm states and lazy red states.

Red States also lead in following: % of Divorce, Domestic Violence, Teenage pregnancy... Red state are are example of of hypocrisy...
whine abpout Taxes and "Washington insiders", and yet they get mor pork mony than blue states, they prclaim Moral superority and yet cheating and divorce and teenage daughters getting preganat is more prevalent in red states. Every stat on vices is led by southern and red states.


Work? Southern people work? Chit Chat ain't working even if you get paid for it.
AND DON"T ASK ME FOR A LINK! LAZY RED STATER DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!

 

[glockmail]

....
AND DON"T ASK ME FOR A LINK! LAZY RED STATER DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!

Didn't think you'd be able to back up your claims...

 

[Gunny]

Absolutely a great question!!!!! $15 hr down south in a Toyota plant or $35 hr. in Michigan at the big 3.

And instead of the dumb ass toyota employees demanding more, they helped break the Big 3 and now their standard of living will stay stagnant forever.

It's good to have the plant in your state, but if you are not going to be able to save enough to retire, it's just another bad job.

We want good jobs, not just jobs.

And see, taxes aren't the end of the world.

I heard a small business owner yesterday say taxes aren't killing him, the fact that no one is buying is killing him.

So in the future, small business owners, shut up about taxes. I bet you wouldn't mind paying a couple grand in taxes if it meant people would start buying your crap again.

Idiot. Wages down here are based on cost of living, just as they are wherever you live. We don't pay $2k rent on a 2 bdr apt either.

get a clue.

 

[LOki]

Absolutely a great question!!!!! $15 hr down south in a Toyota plant or $35 hr. in Michigan at the big 3.

And instead of the dumb ass toyota employees demanding more, they helped break the Big 3 and now their standard of living will stay stagnant forever.

It appears to me that the real story is that the job being done is really only worth $15/hour (most likey MUCH less) and the overpaid dumbfucks in Michigan are fucking themselves out of work. I couldn't be more pleased.

It's good to have the plant in your state, but if you are not going to be able to save enough to retire, it's just another bad job.

There's no saving enough to retire if you insist that you must have a bass-boat, spinners on your Escalade, a couple of snowmobiles, an ATV, the latest XBox for each of your sprog, gold grill-work, a bowling league membership, wide screen HDTV, cable, and a two-pack-a-day smoking habit.

The truth is that these assholes get paid PLENTY--they just spend beyond their means.

We want good jobs, not just jobs.

And you get better than you actually deserve.

And see, taxes aren't the end of the world.

No, but they are always punitive--and the people who get punished the worst are the people who provide the jobs, and people who only get what they earn.

I heard a small business owner yesterday say taxes aren't killing him, the fact that no one is buying is killing him.

Well he's just a little bit short-sighted isn't he? He fails to consider that all the taxes applied to every step of every process of every product that he sells adds cost to the products he sells--and no value--putting them farther out of the reach of potential buyers.

So in the future, small business owners, shut up about taxes.

In the future, STFU yourself.

I bet you wouldn't mind paying a couple grand in taxes if it meant people would start buying your crap again.

I might, but I'm MUCH more sure that I'd prefer KEEPING a couple of grand that I earned, so I could spend it how I see fit; and having my buyers keep what they eared, so it was available for THEM to spend in the manner they see fit.

 

[sealybobo]

It appears to me that the real story is that the job being done is really only worth $15/hour (most likey MUCH less) and the overpaid dumbfucks in Michigan are fucking themselves out of work. I couldn't be more pleased.

There's no saving enough to retire if you insist that you must have a bass-boat, spinners on your Escalade, a couple of snowmobiles, an ATV, the latest XBox for each of your sprog, gold grill-work, a bowling league membership, wide screen HDTV, cable, and a two-pack-a-day smoking habit.

The truth is that these assholes get paid PLENTY--they just spend beyond their means.

And you get better than you actually deserve.

No, but they are always punitive--and the people who get punished the worst are the people who provide the jobs, and people who only get what they earn.

Well he's just a little bit short-sighted isn't he? He fails to consider that all the taxes applied to every step of every process of every product that he sells adds cost to the products he sells--and no value--putting them farther out of the reach of potential buyers.

In the future, STFU yourself.

I might, but I'm MUCH more sure that I'd prefer KEEPING a couple of grand that I earned, so I could spend it how I see fit; and having my buyers keep what they eared, so it was available for THEM to spend in the manner they see fit.

Hell, the Republicans should send even more jobs overseas so to make jobs even more scarce so they can lower our wages even more. You and Gunny just don't get it. You will make $15 20 years from now. Or whatever you make, you will make that 20 years from now.

What company will give you a raise just because? You'll never be worth more than $15 hr. Hell, they might even decide that's too much and send your job to Mexico.

Why is the economy in the tank? What's the answer to fixing this economy? The answer to both questions is JOBS. Good jobs. We don't make anything anymore. This is a fake economy. No one makes or sells anything. America was great because we made shit and sold it to the rest of the world. Now we just buy. So if we aren't buying as you suggest, our economy tanks. And it's never really a good economy because WE DON"T MAKE ANYTHING.

Want people to start spending again? Give them jobs. Want good schools and kids learning? Then their parents must have good jobs. Not people losing jobs and their homes.

You Republicans/Conservatives refuse to understand that you can't have it both ways. This economy needs us spending money and you're asking us to tighten our purse strings. We did that, and that means consumer confidence is low. Your failed policies don't work.

Overpaid Michiganders? Ok dude, you will always be a have not! Good luck paying for college and healthcare and saving for retirement.

And I'm ok with manufacturing going down south. Really I am. I just hope that's as far as it goes. If Manufacturing needs to go down south because broke as southerners will do the work for less, I'm cool with that, so long as the jobs stay in America.

But don't come begging us to join our unions when Toyota starts charging you for more and more of your health insurance and don't cry when they don't raise your wages in 20 years. $15 is all you are worth. Up north we are worth much more, which is why we lead in education and standard of living.

 

[Care4all]

It appears to me that the real story is that the job being done is really only worth $15/hour (most likey MUCH less) and the overpaid dumbfucks in Michigan are fucking themselves out of work. I couldn't be more pleased.

There's no saving enough to retire if you insist that you must have a bass-boat, spinners on your Escalade, a couple of snowmobiles, an ATV, the latest XBox for each of your sprog, gold grill-work, a bowling league membership, wide screen HDTV, cable, and a two-pack-a-day smoking habit.

The truth is that these assholes get paid PLENTY--they just spend beyond their means.

And you get better than you actually deserve.

No, but they are always punitive--and the people who get punished the worst are the people who provide the jobs, and people who only get what they earn.

Well he's just a little bit short-sighted isn't he? He fails to consider that all the taxes applied to every step of every process of every product that he sells adds cost to the products he sells--and no value--putting them farther out of the reach of potential buyers.

In the future, STFU yourself.

I might, but I'm MUCH more sure that I'd prefer KEEPING a couple of grand that I earned, so I could spend it how I see fit; and having my buyers keep what they eared, so it was available for THEM to spend in the manner they see fit.

What a crock of poopie....15 bucks an hour is poverty level for a family of 3 and in the north, below poverty....

$15 bucks an hour is what i got paid for an extra christmas part time job working for tommy hillfiger near 10 years ago to fold his sweaters and put them on a table real neat in a dept store in Boston...

sheesh, you guys in the south think very little of your own self worth....amazing....if you think $15 an hour is being overpaid to make a car....

as what was mentioned earlier, the cost of living does factor in to it but even so.....

 

[glockmail]

.....
There's no saving enough to retire if you insist that you must have a bass-boat, spinners on your Escalade, a couple of snowmobiles, an ATV, the latest XBox for each of your sprog, gold grill-work, a bowling league membership, wide screen HDTV, cable, and a two-pack-a-day smoking habit.

The truth is that these assholes get paid PLENTY--they just spend beyond their means.....

Dead on.

 

[sealybobo]

Dead on.

We all know this is true for the person who finishes highschool and goes out and gets a job without getting an education first. But NOW it's starting to be true for WAY TOO MANY OF US that did go to college and THOUGHT we would have a better life than the average schmuck who under achieved. Now things are tight for even us. Who's gonna have kids and afford to pay for their college AND retire? And you think the economy will move if everyone is saving?

But now we are graduating college with $50- $100K debt and the jobs we are finding do not pay enough to justify such a huge debt. And the dollar isn't worth what it was, so what we are making now is actually less than what we were making before.

And the corporations are charging us more and more for healthcare and meanwhile the oil companies and energy companies are gouging us because Chaney let them write our energy policies.

Should people save more and not go into debt for a boat? Sure. But you miss the point that this cluster fuck of an economy is not our fault. We aren't going deeper into debt because WE suck. The Republicans suck. They should never run the government again. If W. Virginia wants a Republican governor then fine, but the middle class American people should never be fooled into voting for them again. Based on what you are saying, the conservatives feel that most Americans should not live the American dream. They should work their whole lives to save just enough to retire, and never go on vacations or buy nice things. And when they stop working and get an illness, the healthcare companies are going to take whatever they saved before they treat that illness, and you will die without dignity.

Nice vision of America you have.

 

[glockmail]

We all know this is true for the person who finishes highschool and goes out and gets a job without getting an education first. But NOW it's starting to be true for WAY TOO MANY OF US that did go to college and THOUGHT we would have a better life than the average schmuck who under achieved. Now things are tight for even us. Who's gonna have kids and afford to pay for their college AND retire? And you think the economy will move if everyone is saving?

But now we are graduating college with $50- $100K debt and the jobs we are finding do not pay enough to justify such a huge debt. And the dollar isn't worth what it was, so what we are making now is actually less than what we were making before.

And the corporations are charging us more and more for healthcare and meanwhile the oil companies and energy companies are gouging us because Chaney let them write our energy policies.

Should people save more and not go into debt for a boat? Sure. But you miss the point that this cluster fuck of an economy is not our fault. We aren't going deeper into debt because WE suck. The Republicans suck. They should never run the government again. If W. Virginia wants a Republican governor then fine, but the middle class American people should never be fooled into voting for them again. Based on what you are saying, the conservatives feel that most Americans should not live the American dream. They should work their whole lives to save just enough to retire, and never go on vacations or buy nice things. And when they stop working and get an illness, the healthcare companies are going to take whatever they saved before they treat that illness, and you will die without dignity.

Nice vision of America you have.

Need a tissue?

If you graduate from college with that much debt its because you went to a fancy-smancy over-priced school and drove a brand new car. I went to State and drove my high-school wreck. I drove it for two more years after graduation as well.

If you're career's now in the tank its because you chose the wrong one, or you didn't work hard enough, or the world changed and you couldn't keep up.

Either way cry me a river. Its your own fucking fault not America's.

 

[LOki]

Hell, the Republicans should send even more jobs overseas so to make jobs even more scarce so they can lower our wages even more. You and Gunny just don't get it. You will make $15 20 years from now. Or whatever you make, you will make that 20 years from now.

I doubt it. I get raises every year--merit raises. My work gets better, and more valuable, and I get paid more as it does. Bolt twisters making $35/hr can't say the same thing.

What company will give you a raise just because?

Just because ..what? What exactly?

You'll never be worth more than $15 hr.

I already am.

Hell, they might even decide that's too much and send your job to Mexico.

If a Mexican can do my job for less, then they are perfectly justified in doing so.

Why is the economy in the tank?

A pervasive, unjustified and over-developed sense of entitlement in this country.

What's the answer to fixing this economy?

Let these retards with the over-developed sense of entitlement get real, or strave to death.

The answer to both questions is JOBS.

No one is entitled to a job. NO ONE.

Good jobs.

They already exist, and they are under-appreciated.

We don't make anything anymore.

Mostly because it cost too much to pay the retards with over-developed senses of entitlement to make those things here.

This is a fake economy.

It is. No Detriot bolt twister's job is worth $35/hr.

No one makes or sells anything.

Fear and entitlement.

America was great because we made shit and sold it to the rest of the world.

We made it better, and cheaper. That is just impossible if you insist that a Detroit bolt twister is entiled to $35/hr.

Now we just buy.

Better, cheaper goods from foreign markets.

So if we aren't buying as you suggest, our economy tanks. And it's never really a good economy because WE DON"T MAKE ANYTHING.

But we could--it would just mean that over-entitled retards would have to accept the reality that the value of their work cannot sustain their over-developed sense of entitlement.

Want people to start spending again? Give them jobs.

There are plenty of jobs...you have said so yourself.

Want good schools and kids learning? Then their parents must have good jobs. Not people losing jobs and their homes.

Again, there are PLENTY of jobs. Check the employment ads.

You Republicans/Conservatives refuse to understand that you can't have it both ways.

First, wrong political affiliation; and secondly, neither can you over-entitled retards have it both ways.

This economy needs us spending money and you're asking us to tighten our purse strings.

First, I'm not asking people to tighten their purse strings; and secondly I am demanding that the government not steal what I have rightly earned to subsidize the unjustified lifestyles of retards with an over-developed sense of entitlement.

We did that, and that means consumer confidence is low. Your failed policies don't work.

First, we're not talking about my policies in any way; secondly, your bullshit has never worked either.

Overpaid Michiganders? Ok dude, you will always be a have not!

I'm afraid I have quite abit more--I'd just like to keep it from over-paid, and over-entitled retards who demand that their dumb job deserves to support the lifestyle that I earn.

Good luck paying for college and healthcare and saving for retirement.

I'm way ahead of the curve pal, mostly because I spend wisely when I spend, and I save every thing else.

And I'm ok with manufacturing going down south. Really I am. I just hope that's as far as it goes. If Manufacturing needs to go down south because broke as southerners will do the work for less, I'm cool with that, so long as the jobs stay in America.

I don't give a fuck. If over-entitled Americans refuse to do work that only pays what that work is worth, then those jobs should rightly go to those who apprciate their value.

But don't come begging us to join our unions when Toyota starts charging you for more and more of your health insurance and don't cry when they don't raise your wages in 20 years.

I'd never let one of your bullshit unions hold me back.

$15 is all you are worth.

That's not what the people who pay me think, you remakably stupid fucktard.

But if $15/hr is all your work is woth, then that is all you should get--NOT A PENNY MORE.

Up north we are worth much more, which is why we lead in education and standard of living.

And to a certain degree we are a bunch of over-entitled dipshits who will find ourselves obstinantly pricing ourselves out of jobs because we have no fucking sense what-so-ever that neither want nor need means deserve.

 

[LOki]

What a crock of poopie

No. Being overpaid is a crock.

....15 bucks an hour is poverty level for a family of 3 and in the north, below poverty....

So what?

$15 bucks an hour is what i got paid for an extra christmas part time job working for tommy hillfiger near 10 years ago to fold his sweaters and put them on a table real neat in a dept store in Boston...

You were over-paid. Consider yourself lucky.

sheesh, you guys in the south think very little of your own self worth....amazing....if you think $15 an hour is being overpaid to make a car...

If they were making cars, you'd have a point--but if they are just twisting bolts, then you don't.

as what was mentioned earlier, the cost of living does factor in to it but even so.....

If your work is less valuable than the cost of living, then you ought to starve.

 

[sealybobo]

I doubt it. I get raises every year--merit raises. My work gets better, and more valuable, and I get paid more as it does. Bolt twisters making $35/hr can't say the same thing.

Just because ..what? What exactly?

I already am.

If a Mexican can do my job for less, then they are perfectly justified in doing so.

A pervasive, unjustified and over-developed sense of entitlement in this country.

Let these retards with the over-developed sense of entitlement get real, or strave to death.

No one is entitled to a job. NO ONE.

They already exist, and they are under-appreciated.

Mostly because it cost too much to pay the retards with over-developed senses of entitlement to make those things here.

It is. No Detriot bolt twister's job is worth $35/hr.

Fear and entitlement.

We made it better, and cheaper. That is just impossible if you insist that a Detroit bolt twister is entiled to $35/hr.

Better, cheaper goods from foreign markets.

But we could--it would just mean that over-entitled retards would have to accept the reality that the value of their work cannot sustain their over-developed sense of entitlement.

There are plenty of jobs...you have said so yourself.

Again, there are PLENTY of jobs. Check the employment ads.

First, wrong political affiliation; and secondly, neither can you over-entitled retards have it both ways.

First, I'm not asking people to tighten their purse strings; and secondly I am demanding that the government not steal what I have rightly earned to subsidize the unjustified lifestyles of retards with an over-developed sense of entitlement.

First, we're not talking about my policies in any way; secondly, your bullshit has never worked either.

I'm afraid I have quite abit more--I'd just like to keep it from over-paid, and over-entitled retards who demand that their dumb job deserves to support the lifestyle that I earn.

I'm way ahead of the curve pal, mostly because I spend wisely when I spend, and I save every thing else.

I don't give a fuck. If over-entitled Americans refuse to do work that only pays what that work is worth, then those jobs should rightly go to those who apprciate their value.

I'd never let one of your bullshit unions hold me back.

That's not what the people who pay me think, you remakably stupid fucktard.

But if $15/hr is all your work is woth, then that is all you should get--NOT A PENNY MORE.

And to a certain degree we are a bunch of over-entitled dipshits who will find ourselves obstinantly pricing ourselves out of jobs because we have no fucking sense what-so-ever that neither want nor need means deserve.

What do you do for a living?

Either you are a supervisor, or you have the house slave mentality.

 

[sealybobo]

No. Being overpaid is a crock.

So what?

You were over-paid. Consider yourself lucky.

If they were making cars, you'd have a point--but if they are just twisting bolts, then you don't.

If your work is less valuable than the cost of living, then you ought to starve.

I think you are overpaid. Your company surely would like to replace you with someone who makes $5 hr. less. They might do that too as soon as you start getting a little old. OUT WITH YOU! Which I'm sure you are fine with, until it happens to YOU.

Or when you go to retire and the GOP tank the stock market and all of the sudden what you saved gets cut in half, I'll tell you that you were a stupid sorry sonofabitch who thought he was entitled to die with some dignity.

Now I don't mind reading your rediculous positions because I know you are an extremist and no one is going to buy into the idea that us worker bees make too much and are not worth what we are making now. Because they can always get an asian, african, indian or mexican to do it for less.

You are a sorry excuse for an American. You won't be happy until most Americans live like Mexicans. And you think you'll fall on the winning side of that line? Hell no!

I'm torn. Either you are a white collar prick or a grease monkey. Which is it?

 

[sealybobo]

Need a tissue?

If you graduate from college with that much debt its because you went to a fancy-smancy over-priced school and drove a brand new car. I went to State and drove my high-school wreck. I drove it for two more years after graduation as well.

If you're career's now in the tank its because you chose the wrong one, or you didn't work hard enough, or the world changed and you couldn't keep up.

Either way cry me a river. Its your own fucking fault not America's.

YOu are a callous prick. PS. I graduated and only owed $2500. I worked my ass off in the summer.

I won't go into it, but what I did should be possible for kids today. College should be affordable, so should healthcare, and jobs should pay more.

And you and that other baffoon are house slaves. You're just happy that you aint pickin cotton with the rest of us.

And I'm probably doing better than you are yet you accept your pathetic lifestyle. I want more. I want to get back to the economy of the 90's. You know, the good old days that you republicans don't think we can ever get back to?

We can get back to those days. But the CEO can't make $20 million a year and have the worker bees making $35K an hour. The CEO has to take a $10 million dollar pay cut. So do his VP's.

THEY are not worth $20 million, but WE are worth $35 an hour you fucking house slave!!! You sicken me!

Either you are an arrogant manager or a guy who doesn't have shit and doesn't know it. I've talked to both kinds of people on these boards.

I love it. The problem with America is the middle class makes too much. What a fuck wad you are, really.

 

[del]

YOu are a callous prick. PS. I graduated and only owed $2500. I worked my ass off in the summer.

I won't go into it, but what I did should be possible for kids today. College should be affordable, so should healthcare, and jobs should pay more.

And you and that other baffoon are house slaves. You're just happy that you aint pickin cotton with the rest of us.

And I'm probably doing better than you are yet you accept your pathetic lifestyle. I want more. I want to get back to the economy of the 90's. You know, the good old days that you republicans don't think we can ever get back to?

We can get back to those days. But the CEO can't make $20 million a year and have the worker bees making $35K an hour. The CEO has to take a $10 million dollar pay cut. So do his VP's.

THEY are not worth $20 million, but WE are worth $35 an hour you fucking house slave!!! You sicken me!

Either you are an arrogant manager or a guy who doesn't have shit and doesn't know it. I've talked to both kinds of people on these boards.

I love it. The problem with America is the middle class makes too much. What a fuck wad you are, really.

house slave?
how enlightened.
give my best to Bob Byrd when you see him at the next meeting.

 

[glockmail]

YOu are a callous prick. PS. I graduated and only owed $2500. I worked my ass off in the summer.

I won't go into it, but what I did should be possible for kids today. College should be affordable, so should healthcare, and jobs should pay more.

And you and that other baffoon are house slaves. You're just happy that you aint pickin cotton with the rest of us.

And I'm probably doing better than you are yet you accept your pathetic lifestyle. I want more. I want to get back to the economy of the 90's. You know, the good old days that you republicans don't think we can ever get back to?

We can get back to those days. But the CEO can't make $20 million a year and have the worker bees making $35K an hour. The CEO has to take a $10 million dollar pay cut. So do his VP's.

THEY are not worth $20 million, but WE are worth $35 an hour you fucking house slave!!! You sicken me!

Either you are an arrogant manager or a guy who doesn't have shit and doesn't know it. I've talked to both kinds of people on these boards.

I love it. The problem with America is the middle class makes too much. What a fuck wad you are, really.

Call it tough love, babe. $35K an hour ain't too bad. Neither is $35 with bennies. If you can't live well on that you've got a fucking problem.

 

[LOki]

We all know this is true for the person who finishes highschool and goes out and gets a job without getting an education first. But NOW it's starting to be true for WAY TOO MANY OF US that did go to college and THOUGHT we would have a better life than the average schmuck who under achieved.

Looks to me like you didn't think thing through well enough. . .I resent your implication that this now be MY problem to solve.

Now things are tight for even us.

How did this become MY problem?

Who's gonna have kids and afford to pay for their college AND retire?

I will; but if you're not, that still not MY problem.

And you think the economy will move if everyone is saving?

You think this is what is being asserted?

But now we are graduating college with $50- $100K debt and the jobs we are finding do not pay enough to justify such a huge debt.

Sounds to me like these educations don't merit such high tuitions--I still cant see how your bad spending habits have become MY problem to solve.

And the dollar isn't worth what it was, so what we are making now is actually less than what we were making before.

Probably because people have more money than the value they have actually produced.

And the corporations are charging us more and more for healthcare and meanwhile the oil companies and energy companies are gouging us because Chaney let them write our energy policies.

Welcome to the principle of forcable wealth redistribution--it's bullshit no matter which direction you choose to practice it in.

Should people save more and not go into debt for a boat? Sure.

I thought that this stops the economy. . .WTF are you up to now?

But you miss the point that this cluster fuck of an economy is not our fault. We aren't going deeper into debt because WE suck. The Republicans suck.

All of you retards with over-developed senses of entitlement suck--your party affiliation is entirely irrelevent.

They should never run the government again. If W. Virginia wants a Republican governor then fine, but the middle class American people should never be fooled into voting for them again.

Party affiliation is irrelevent--if you vote for some authoritarian asshole who will take by force what someone has, to give it to someone else who doesn't deserve it, then you are the fucking problem--you are the WHOLE fucking problem.

Based on what you are saying, the conservatives feel that most Americans should not live the American dream.

They certainly shouldn't if they don't deserve to. There's nothing about being American that entitles someone to live the dream--the dream is based on value and merit, not citizenship.

They should work their whole lives to save just enough to retire, and never go on vacations or buy nice things.

If their work does not produce value comensurate with these "vacations" or "nice things" then you're right; they shouldn't get them--they certainly should NEVER feel entitled to them.

And when they stop working and get an illness, the healthcare companies are going to take whatever they saved before they treat that illness, and you will die without dignity.

That's what happens when you suck. Welcome to the reality check.

Nice vision of America you have.

Thanks!

 

[sealybobo]

No. Being overpaid is a crock.

So what?

You were over-paid. Consider yourself lucky.

If they were making cars, you'd have a point--but if they are just twisting bolts, then you don't.

If your work is less valuable than the cost of living, then you ought to starve.

Thomas Jefferson wrote in a September 28, 1821 letter, "The government of the United States, at a very early period, when establishing its tariff on foreign importations, were very much guided in their selection of objects by a desire to encourage manufactures within ourselves."

Conservatives don't want you to know this, and - even more frenetically - are working to prevent any discussion of "protectionist" tariffs on labor. Their main argument - a straw man - is that "productivity" is responsible for the loss of American jobs, not a fundamental realignment in the rules of the game of business starting in the Reagan era and climaxing with NAFTA and GATT/WTO.

Business publications love to quote 19th century economist David Ricardo as saying, in "On Wages," his 1817 work, "Labour, like all other things which are purchased and sold, and which may be increased or diminished in quantity, has its natural and its market price."

Thus, they say, it's natural that American wages should have been in a free fall ever since Bill Clinton signed NAFTA and GATT: America's roughly 100-million workers now have to compete "on a level playing field" with five billion impoverished people around the world. Offshoring is simply the normal extension, they say, of Ricardo's classic view of economics.

What they forget is that Ricardo also wrote, in the following sentence, "The natural price of labour is that price which is necessary to enable the labourers, one with another, to subsist and to perpetuate their race, without either increase or diminution."

In other words, labor is part of the game of business, and one of the first goals of the game of business is "to perpetuate" the working class's existence.

What's lost on many Americans is that business is a game, too. The rules are defined by We the People through our elected representatives, and the goal is to provide for the "life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness" of American citizens.

The question Americans have faced since the first arguments between Jefferson and Hamilton in the 1780s was whether the game of business should be played with the primary goal of enriching the few, or - while allowing the few to enrich themselves - to enhance the quality of life of the many at the same time.

Modern conservatives suggest that if the rich win first, benefits will "trickle down" on the rest of us. Protecting workers, they say, will produce dislocations and abnormalities from the "free market." For example, they suggest that when minimum wages are fixed by government, and labor can lawfully bargain to increase wages by increasing scarcity of labor through union actions, that results in an increase in prices, ultimately hurting "the working person."

But Ricardo disagreed that rising wages first increased prices. He noted, "On the contrary, a rise of wages, from the circumstance of the labourer being more liberally rewarded, or from a difficulty of procuring the necessaries on which wages are expended, does not, except in some instances, produce the effect of raising price, but has a great effect in lowering profits."

And when wages go down, profits go up. American wages have been going down steadily since Reagan first reintroduced conservative economics in 1980, and American corporations just reported two of their most profitable quarters in decades. In part, this is because wages are not only going down within the US, but because US-level wages are being replaced by India- and China-level wages through outsourcing and offshoring.

"But offshoring isn't the problem for American workers!" conservatives shout. "It's the increase in productivity. American businesses need fewer workers because automation and hard work have made our workers more productive."

This is a tragic lie, and it's been bought hook, line, and sinker by most American politicians and even many economists.

Productivity is, very simply, the measurement of how many products or services can be produced for how many dollars of labor expended. But offshoring distorts productivity figures in two ways.

First, foreign labor is cheaper, but produces nearly identical amounts of product or service. The result is "increased productivity."

Second, many corporations don't put offshore labor onto their balance sheets as a labor expense. Because they hire offshore companies as subcontractors to do work previously done by their own employees, they get to reduce the number and cost of their employees while having an only slightly increased line-item on their P&L for the subcontractor. The result is that it looks like their remaining employees are getting more done, because the offshore employees are no longer counted in the productivity figures.

But the Indians and Chinese know something you won't hear on conservative "business" programs. While China and India eagerly let multinational corporations move work from America to their nations, they fiercely protect their own domestic industries primarily through the use of tariffs - taxes on imported goods - and the strict regulation of imported labor.

We should do the same. To return balance to the international game of business, America can again use tariffs to balance trade relationships. This is not a new idea, by the way - it's how America has protected its economy from the founding of this nation right up until Clinton signed NAFTA and GATT.

For example, Jefferson wrote in his diary on March 11, 1792, "Hamilton had drawn Ternant into a conversation on the subject of the treaty of commerce recommended by the National Assembly of France to be negotiated with us." France wanted concessions from America as a way of enhancing international relations, but was unwilling to reduce her own tariffs. Jefferson noted, "Hamilton communicated this to the President, who came into it, and proposed it to me. I disapproved of it, observing, that such a volunteer project would be binding on us, and not them; that it would enable them to find out how far we would go, and avail themselves of it."

George Washington was more of Hamilton's mind. "However," Jefferson wrote, "the President thought it worth trying, and I acquiesced. I prepared a plan of treaty for exchanging the privileges of native subjects, and fixing all duties forever as they now stood. Hamilton did not like this way of fixing the duties, because, he said, many articles here would bear to be raised, and therefore, he would prepare a tariff. He did so, raising duties for the French, from twenty-five to fifty per cent. So they were to give us the privileges of native subjects, and we, as a compensation, were to make them pay higher duties."

The deal ultimately fell through - Jefferson saw it as Machiavellian scheme by Hamilton to try to irritate England - but it shows how tariffs were an important aspect of American foreign policy from the administration of George Washington up until Bill Clinton got us into the World Trade Organization, thus eliminating most tariffs and trade "restrictions," letting multinational corporations instead of sovereign nations write the rules of international business.

To solve the crisis of the disappearance of America's middle class the United States should pull out of the WTO and other multilateral treaties that give corporations the power to enforce their will on our government and on our workers. This will again allow us to impose leveling tariffs on work done overseas. Offshore labor can then be set in price - by adding tariffs to it - to equal a living wage in the United States.

If a company wants to hire people to answer the phone in India for two dollars an hour, fine. Let them do it - and pay a $10/hour tariff on top of the $2/hour wage. Most will simply return to the United States for their labor, and those that don't will enhance government coffers with funds that can be used for national healthcare and education of our workforce.

By walking away from the ABM and Kyoto accords, George W. Bush taught Americans that we really do have the power to simply ignore or disavow international treaties we've already committed to. It's time to apply that experience to GATT/WTO/NAFTA and return to our Founders' ideal of a nation where the rules of trade and business are, as Jefferson said, "very much guided" by the interests of We the People, rather than a handful of multinational corporations.

ThomHartmann.com - Exposing the Conservative Straw Man - "Productivity"

 

[LOki]

What do you do for a living?

None of your business, really. But for what it's worth, I protect human lives.

Either you are a supervisor,...

I can't imagine how this is at all relevent.

... or you have the house slave mentality.

Now you're just being a bitter retard.