Why do liberals say secession is TREASON?

[M14 Shooter]

[
You are claiming the states were sovereign before becoming states . They were not. They were colonies, subservient to the Crown or territories subservient to the United States. They became sovereign states with caveats after being accepted into the Union as states.

False.

Treaty of Paris, 1783; both the crown and the states themselves recognized the states as independent and sovereign.
Article 1st:
His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and Independent States; that he treats with them as such, and for himself his Heirs & Successors, relinquishes all claims to the Government, Propriety, and Territorial Rights of the same and every Part thereof.

And under the Articles of Confederation:
ARTICLE II
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.


In granting powers to to the federal government though the constitution, the states did not give up their sovereignty in toto when entering into the union under the Constitution.

All of the states, being equal under the constitution. are sovereign states.
As proof, these states can at any time of their choosing, dissolve the federal government; should that happen, 50 sovereign states will remain.

I guess the word "proof" is also subject to interpretation.

Not so much.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The states you speak of are, and never have been, independent sovereign states.

See post #131.

In what way were they independent sovereign states? Were any of them responsible for their defense or foreign affairs? Did they have their own navies? I guess the word "sovereign" is being very loosely interpreted.

Two timely, pertinent, relevant and authoritative sources prove your statement wrong and you still want to argue the point?
You can do better than that.

No, I'd say you're still stuck at square one.

You could, but you have no rational basis for doing do.

 

[M14 Shooter]

[
You are claiming the states were sovereign before becoming states . They were not. They were colonies, subservient to the Crown or territories subservient to the United States. They became sovereign states with caveats after being accepted into the Union as states.

False.

Treaty of Paris, 1783; both the crown and the states themselves recognized the states as independent and sovereign.
Article 1st:
His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and Independent States; that he treats with them as such, and for himself his Heirs & Successors, relinquishes all claims to the Government, Propriety, and Territorial Rights of the same and every Part thereof.

And under the Articles of Confederation:
ARTICLE II
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.


In granting powers to to the federal government though the constitution, the states did not give up their sovereignty in toto when entering into the union under the Constitution.

All of the states, being equal under the constitution. are sovereign states.
As proof, these states can at any time of their choosing, dissolve the federal government; should that happen, 50 sovereign states will remain.

I guess the word "proof" is also subject to interpretation.

No, shootstupid is just ignoring that sovereign states have different definitions and can come with caveats and restriction

Aww... someone is butthurt over being proven wrong. How cute.

 

[M14 Shooter]

It should be obvious to anyone, that if a state wants to legally leave the union, then it would have to enter into some kind of agreements and treaties with the other states.

Based on.... what?

 

[Camp]

[
You are claiming the states were sovereign before becoming states . They were not. They were colonies, subservient to the Crown or territories subservient to the United States. They became sovereign states with caveats after being accepted into the Union as states.

False.

Treaty of Paris, 1783; both the crown and the states themselves recognized the states as independent and sovereign.
Article 1st:
His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and Independent States; that he treats with them as such, and for himself his Heirs & Successors, relinquishes all claims to the Government, Propriety, and Territorial Rights of the same and every Part thereof.

And under the Articles of Confederation:
ARTICLE II
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.


In granting powers to to the federal government though the constitution, the states did not give up their sovereignty in toto when entering into the union under the Constitution.

All of the states, being equal under the constitution. are sovereign states.
As proof, these states can at any time of their choosing, dissolve the federal government; should that happen, 50 sovereign states will remain.

I guess the word "proof" is also subject to interpretation.

No, shootstupid is just ignoring that sovereign states have different definitions and can come with caveats and restriction

Aww... someone is butthurt over being proven wrong. How cute.

I am not wrong, you are. I am beyond confident that I know stuff about the definitions of sovereign statehood that you are unaware of. Do you know what "in toto" means. It means in total. So the states did not give up their sovereignty in total. What did they give up that that Latin phrase had to be used. If they did not give up total sovereignty, they agreed to accepted partial sovereignty.

 

[Liminal]

It should be obvious to anyone, that if a state wants to legally leave the union, then it would have to enter into some kind of agreements and treaties with the other states.

Based on.... what?

Perhaps you'd like to propose a constitutional amendment that creates a legal process for secession.

 

[M14 Shooter]

[
You are claiming the states were sovereign before becoming states . They were not. They were colonies, subservient to the Crown or territories subservient to the United States. They became sovereign states with caveats after being accepted into the Union as states.

False.

Treaty of Paris, 1783; both the crown and the states themselves recognized the states as independent and sovereign.
Article 1st:
His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and Independent States; that he treats with them as such, and for himself his Heirs & Successors, relinquishes all claims to the Government, Propriety, and Territorial Rights of the same and every Part thereof.

And under the Articles of Confederation:
ARTICLE II
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.


In granting powers to to the federal government though the constitution, the states did not give up their sovereignty in toto when entering into the union under the Constitution.

All of the states, being equal under the constitution. are sovereign states.
As proof, these states can at any time of their choosing, dissolve the federal government; should that happen, 50 sovereign states will remain.

I guess the word "proof" is also subject to interpretation.

No, shootstupid is just ignoring that sovereign states have different definitions and can come with caveats and restriction

Aww... someone is butthurt over being proven wrong. How cute.

I am not wrong, you are.

I provided proof, you provided... nothing.
.

 

[M14 Shooter]

It should be obvious to anyone, that if a state wants to legally leave the union, then it would have to enter into some kind of agreements and treaties with the other states.

Based on.... what?

Perhaps you'd like to propose a constitutional amendment that creates a legal process for secession.

So... based on.... nothing. Thank you.

 

[Liminal]

It should be obvious to anyone, that if a state wants to legally leave the union, then it would have to enter into some kind of agreements and treaties with the other states.

Based on.... what?

Perhaps you'd like to propose a constitutional amendment that creates a legal process for secession.

So... based on.... nothing. Thank you.

Considerably more than you have now.

 

[Camp]

False.

Treaty of Paris, 1783; both the crown and the states themselves recognized the states as independent and sovereign.
Article 1st:
His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and Independent States; that he treats with them as such, and for himself his Heirs & Successors, relinquishes all claims to the Government, Propriety, and Territorial Rights of the same and every Part thereof.

And under the Articles of Confederation:
ARTICLE II
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.


In granting powers to to the federal government though the constitution, the states did not give up their sovereignty in toto when entering into the union under the Constitution.

All of the states, being equal under the constitution. are sovereign states.
As proof, these states can at any time of their choosing, dissolve the federal government; should that happen, 50 sovereign states will remain.

I guess the word "proof" is also subject to interpretation.

No, shootstupid is just ignoring that sovereign states have different definitions and can come with caveats and restriction

Aww... someone is butthurt over being proven wrong. How cute.

I am not wrong, you are.

I provided proof, you provided... nothing.
.

Your own post contradicts your position.

 

[NYcarbineer]

It should be obvious to anyone, that if a state wants to legally leave the union, then it would have to enter into some kind of agreements and treaties with the other states.

Based on.... what?

Based on the fact that the residents of any state are mostly US citizens who are protected by the US government, US law, and the US Constitution.

No state has the right to unilaterally and arbitrarily take away that citizenship and everything that comes with it.

 

[M14 Shooter]

It should be obvious to anyone, that if a state wants to legally leave the union, then it would have to enter into some kind of agreements and treaties with the other states.

Based on.... what?

Perhaps you'd like to propose a constitutional amendment that creates a legal process for secession.

So... based on.... nothing. Thank you.

Considerably more than you have now.

Please -- feel free to share.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I guess the word "proof" is also subject to interpretation.

No, shootstupid is just ignoring that sovereign states have different definitions and can come with caveats and restriction

Aww... someone is butthurt over being proven wrong. How cute.

I am not wrong, you are.

I provided proof, you provided... nothing.
.

Your own post contradicts your position.

A statement you know you cannot support.

 

[Bombur]

The ability of the Southern states to simply leave was never really put up for debate because they declared war before the legal option was explored.

The people of the US always had the moral right to declare war against any government that allowed slavery.

 

[hangover]

When you are a member of a club you have the right to leave whenever you wish. That's what the original 13 colonies did and that's what the confederate states did in 1861. Naturally the central authorities don't like it, but what moral argument can they muster to keep you bound.?

If you don't like the United States fine, please leave. But just like the CONfederates that lost the Civil War trying to divide this land, you're going to lose again.

 

[bripat9643]

Secession is also the ultimate example of states rights and a great way to keep the federal govt in check.

...and that is why it must not be allowed.

We must have an UNCHECKED central government...so think the statists.

The Civil War was fought over your concept and opinion. Your side lost at the cost of blood and treasure. You fools are making all the same arguments made to bring about the Civil War. The south is not going to rise again. Get over it and abandon your delusional dreams.

So might makes right, eh camp?

Establishing the facts of history is always important and useful. The fact that Lincoln cult members like you try so hard to stamp out the truth shows exactly why it must be brought to light. The lies and propaganda the left spews about Lincoln and the war is a potent weapon in their battle to destroy freedom.

 

[bripat9643]

When you are a member of a club you have the right to leave whenever you wish. That's what the original 13 colonies did and that's what the confederate states did in 1861. Naturally the central authorities don't like it, but what moral argument can they muster to keep you bound.?

If you don't like the United States fine, please leave. But just like the CONfederates that lost the Civil War trying to divide this land, you're going to lose again.

Why weren't you telling the queers that when they were whining about their so-called "right" to be married?

 

[bripat9643]

Because the states that decided to leave had a contract with other states in the Union. The Union gave them blood and treasure when they needed protection. One party of an agreement does not have the right to just quit the contract and agreement for some arbitrary or random reason.

Silly you.

Amendment 10.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

There's nothing in the constitution that prohibits a state from leaving and so the right to do so is reserved by the states.

They chose treason instead. Shooting at federal troops is treason in the manner that they did.

Secession in and of itself is not treason.

The Supremacy Clause prohibits a State from leaving because the Supremacy Clauses binds a State to compliance with federal/Constitutional law and secession represents an arbitrary repudiation of those obligations.

Additionally, people in a state are residents, but above that they are US citizens. US citizens are protected by the US Constitution and federal law in all rights and privileges coming from that law.

No state can arbitrarily revoke a US citizen's citizenship and thus deny that citizen the rights, privileges, and protections that come with that citizenship.

I have already exploded your idiotic "logic."

There's not the slightest shred of evidence that the Supremacy clause prevents a state from leaving, any more than a mortgage prevents you from selling your house. Federal laws are supreme over state laws only so long as that state is a member of the Union. If it chooses to leave, the supremacy clause no longer applies.

If a state secedes, anyone living there can choose to remain a U.S. citizen. However, he will be an alien resident in a foreign country.

 

[bripat9643]

The ability of the Southern states to simply leave was never really put up for debate because they declared war before the legal option was explored.

The people of the US always had the moral right to declare war against any government that allowed slavery.

The Confederate states never declared war and neither did the federal government. Lincoln simply invaded Virginia.

 

[bripat9643]

Liberals argue against the right of secession because they don't know American history and because most of them reject America's founding principles anyway. If this were 1776, most liberals would be siding with the British.

Secessionists are all full of shit, not one of them actually believes in any principle of secession. If they did they should have no problem with counties seceding from states.

Counties are political subdivisions of states, created by legislation by that state.
States are sovereign entities that elected to join the union, not political subdivisions created by congress.
Apples/oranges.

Give it up. One by one your creative imaginary and misinformed concepts get shot down

This only means you know you cannot show how I am wrong.

None of the states were sovereign states

All of the states, being equal under the constitution. are sovereign states.
As proof, these states can at any time of their choosing, dissolve the federal government; should that happen, 50 sovereign states will remain.

You are claiming the states were sovereign before becoming states . They were not. They were colonies, subservient to the Crown or territories subservient to the United States. They became sovereign states with caveats after being accepted into the Union as states.

You're forgetting the minor matter that the Constitution wasn't ratified until 1789. The colonies gained their independence in 1783. They were sovereign states during that period.

The theory that the Union created the states was conceived by Lincoln to justify his invasion of Virginia and it's utterly laughable.