Why do the God-haters persist?

[Boss]

Funny how christians hijack the dictionary and reason and comon sense whenever it suits them but get all bent out of shape when others land on their own definitions.

There are many definitions of what a fundi is.... As many as there are questionable passages in your scriptures.

If you believe anything in the bible new or old testiment that contradicts facts and physics you are a fundimentalist.

If you believe in a resurrection..burning bushes.. Ezeikiel.. parting oceans...tablets from god.. miracles.. literally hundreds of biblical myths.. you are a fundimentalist.

It does not matter if you don't like the label. You are what you appear to be. It's not YOUR call.

Well I have repeatedly stated that I am not a Christian. I know many of you find this hard to believe, but it doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not. I'm certainly not any kind of "fundamentalist" but when it comes to stories told in the translated scriptures we call The Bible, I have to take exception with what you are saying here. You see, back in the day, they didn't have printing presses and photography, they couldn't convey stories any other way than through spoken words. Since that was the only tool they could use, the stories were very often metaphorical and sometimes even embellished or exaggerated for effect. It doesn't mean they were totally false, but they weren't always literally true either. The stories are often presented to illustrate some important point or convey something fundamental.

Christianity, in relation to human existence, is still a relatively new way of humans connecting to Spiritual Nature. This phenomenon has been happening in some incarnation for as long as man has existed on the planet. Every archeological dig confirms it, there is no question about it, humans have always been spiritually-connected to something greater than self. Are Christians right? I don't know for certain, but since Christianity is something created by man in an attempt to understand his spirituality, I would say that it's likely they aren't completely right or wrong. This is why I am not a Christian. Nor do I subscribe to any organized religious theocracy, I think they are all flawed because man is flawed.

Still, I believe there is something greater than self. I humbly submit, I don't "believe" because I have "faith" but because I know this force exists. If I had no evidence for that, I couldn't believe it. So what should I do with that knowledge? Pretend it's not there? Pretend I don't know about it or feel it's presence? That doesn't seem to be a rational behavior to me. Besides, I gain tremendous benefit from embracing this force, it empowers me and gives me encouragement, inspires me and gives me hope. Why would I ever want to abandon that? To be more cool? To be liked by others? No, I will keep believing in what I know is truth, and you can keep disbelieving... it doesn't bother me in the least.

You are very close to the truth my brother. Keep thinking. You are correct about the organized religions. They are all just man's ATTEMPT to understand what we can not understand. But just because for hundreds of thousands of years man has believed in a higher power that doesn't prove anything. I use to think that too. I use to say I don't buy Christianity but I believe there must be a God. But my reasons are flawed. And science tells us that it is because our brains evolved to be smart enough to be curious that our intelligent minds came up with God. And this is funny to me because back then our intelligence is what made us come up with God but today I consider anyone who believes in God to be stupid. Also funny is that there are very intelligent people who believe. That doesn't matter why? The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

First of all, we're not brothers. I didn't come from a monkey, I was created by God. Setting that issue aside, let me address some of your 'finer' points....

But my reasons are flawed. And science tells us that it is because our brains evolved to be smart enough to be curious that our intelligent minds came up with God. And this is funny to me because back then our intelligence is what made us come up with God but today I consider anyone who believes in God to be stupid. Also funny is that there are very intelligent people who believe.​

So you figure we are SO intelligent that we had to create an imaginary placebo to console our fears of death and the unknown? As you say, this is "funny" in fact, it makes no rational sense whatsoever. Furthermore, that we (being as intelligent as we are) have mysteriously clung to this false belief for our entire existence in spite of knowledge and science.

If these theories of man creating spiritual beliefs to console fears of mortality were true, we'd expect to see evidence in nature of the same thing happening with other species of life. Higher primates like chimps and great apes, would likely be mimicking some semblance of spirituality, trying to grapple with their mortality. Perhaps not to the degree of forming actual "religions" but at least performing ritual ceremonies and customs... we simply see no signs of this. It doesn't seem to be a big nagging and troublesome problem for other species to accept they are mortal.

Rational thought says the reason man has these "fears of mortality" is because they are spiritually aware of something immortal. It is our spiritual connection which causes this fear, not the other way around. There are literally hundreds of thousands of ways humans have invented to comprehend and understand this intrinsic spiritual connection we have. This is the source of all religion. It is not because we "had to invent something" it's because we are intrinsically aware of something.

Likewise, the meme of "man created religion to explain the unexplained" is also without rational basis. Man created SCIENCE to explain the unexplained. He created religion to explain his intrinsic awareness of something greater than self, his spiritual connection.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.
​

Precisely, but the "evidence" shows that humans have always had this intrinsic connection to something beyond the physical. Reason tells us there must be a purpose for this. If there were, in fact, nothing to it and it's all in our heads, man would have abandoned it long ago like they have superstitions and mythological beliefs. Science has been around for centuries, explaining away all the great mysteries, but human spirituality has continued to flourish. Even through periods of brutal reprisal and persecution where millions of people have been killed in the name of their spiritual beliefs. It's something that simply cannot be stomped out of the hearts and minds of mankind, no matter how hard it is tried. We remain highly spiritual creatures with 90% of the species still believing in something greater than self. Even the most devout Darwinist would have to conclude there is a fundamental reason for the attribute to exist in humans.

 

[Boss]

The line has been moved way past the "trying" deep into the territory of lies and stupidity.

Exposing lies and stupidity is not depressing. It is fulfilling and far from creating a feeling of emptiness it is very satisfying. Sadly for people that live their lives surrounded by a web of fear and lies you will never know the joy of living with truth unless you are very young. If you have been lying to yourself and others for too long the conflict of starting to tell the truth will just amplify your discomfort by reminding you of your own weakness.

I would recommend that you go on lying to yourself and others. My words are not for you. They are for the true victims that don't know any better and still have time to make the difficult switch to being honest.

Honesty, being smart, not living a lie, not living in fear, all starts with the realization that man is a spiritually-connected being, always has been, always will be. You can reject religion and man-made dogma, you cannot reject human spirituality. It's an intrinsic part of who we are. Some people can live without acknowledging it by substituting worship of self or other materialist things but this almost always leads to dissatisfaction, the feeling that something is missing, some need is not being fulfilled. You then seek to fill that emptiness with pleasures of the flesh, drugs, alcohol, sex, pornography, adultery, promiscuity, indulgence, gluttony, even self-mutilation. And you can trick your mind into believing the emptiness is filled for many years, maybe even your entire lifetime.

Nonsense. You have no experience living with truth so just like those that have faith in the fairy tales of the bible you are basing those words off of someone else's ideas. I have no need or desire to substitute for reality and truth. Unlike what you say and appear to have convinced yourself I look forward to each day as knowledge unfolds the mysteries some others need to reject as they come in conflict of previously ingrained incorrect assumptions.

To the contrary, I have 54 years of experience which you simply know nothing about. My ideas are my own, based on my life experiences. You have deluded yourself into believing a lie and you are attempting to make it truth by proclaiming it a truth and condemning the truth as the lie.

What you appear to look forward to each day is coming here to continue trying to tear down something you disdain and revile. You do this because you are not fulfilled, you need constant reassurance from people like yourself, and you find them here engaging in the same behavior day after day. It never seems to occur to you that you're getting nowhere, there are no minds being changed, you aren't winning anyone over to your side, and it's all a completely pointless endeavor. This proverbial banging of your head against a brick wall, only serves to pacify your need for validation.

What you've deprived yourself of is not measurable in material worth or value. The person you could have been is never realized, the potential is wasted. Humanity will never know what you could have accomplished had you maintained spiritual fidelity. Regardless of any 'reward' awaiting in an afterlife, this is what the reality is. You've squandered the only life you're given out of blind and ignorant laziness, and ironically, think you were the smart one.

Many things never materialize in life. Like they say about winning the lottery "You can't win if you don't play". As far as "squandered" opportunity goes there is far more to a life lived than such a negative glib descrption encompasses as choices made and energy used being neccessarily laziness or ignorance when things didn't work out how one may have envisioned with the best of intentions and effort. This is usually true in everyone's life. Much of life's dissappointments occur by something as simple as health...yours or someone elses. Also we don't live in a vaccume. We are affected by others choices especially when we are young and depend on decisions of our parents and siblings. Lamenting about what could have been is entertaining as one has played a leading part in the drama or comedy but an active mind cannot afford to waste the moment with too much reverie.

And here we find the heart of the matter for you. I am willing to bet that you grew up in a fairly "religious" family, perhaps with parents who made you attend church services regularly and expected you to behave in a moral and decent manner. Am I correct? The reason I say this is because of your comment about parents and siblings, and your continued references to "youth" and how those influences affect our choices and decisions in life. So what has happened here is resentful rebellion against your upbringing. You see your parents, perhaps your siblings as well, as misguided and hypocritical. And here's the deal, you may be completely justified to have those feelings. Your parents and siblings may have been completely misguided religious hypocrites. That simply doesn't negate Spiritual Nature and God or mean it doesn't exist.

To be brief you are in error. The only book that matters is the one you write for yourself. There is no script already written for you and yours will never fit someone else. As I mentioned before once you have lived long enough attempting to satisfy an idea like religion or realizing someone else's concept of spirituality you have already gone too far down the rabit hole and there is no retrieving your own path. Certainly if we chose to live socially there are limits to our personal choices but what goes on between your ears is no ones business unless you are foolish enough to allow it.

Again, we see evidence that you are dealing with emotional repression and resentment over how you were raised. This has manifest itself into a complete distrust of all things spiritual, and that is YOUR error. Spiritual connection is deeply personal, no one can tell you how to best comprehend your intrinsic awareness of it. Some people adopt a religious faith, others like myself, maintain spiritual fidelity by embracing the power found inside us all. It's NEVER too late to do this, you can start this very moment. It is very easy to give up disbelief and begin down the path of truth. You don't have to subscribe to anyone's religious dogma, or even admit anything here in some confessional, you just need to come to the realization of truth personally in your own mind. Like you say, what goes on between your ears is no one's business unless you're foolish enough to allow it.

 

[Montrovant]

Poor thing. At a loss for any argumentative point yet again. Resorting to her typical hate and derision.

Sad.

Don’t be angry, Bossie. Just remember that for those like you who are the wannabe cult leaders of their own fetching designer religions, you have designed a worldview that is impervious to reason, rationality and knowledge.

LMFAO... Yesterday I was "the archetype of angry fundamentalist" and today I am a maverick forging his own designer cult. Sounds like you may be the one losing reason and rationality instead of me.

Not angry, sweetie. I am slightly bemused by what you wish to accomplish with your increasingly bizarre rantings here. You're the one who sounds angry, every post is dripping with vile hateful remarks intended to insult me and land an emotional blow, but you're swinging at ghosts. I sit here grinning from ear to ear as I read my posts and you struggling to find a reasoned response.

I'm hitting my mark, and you know how I can tell I am hitting my mark? The responses are the same empty rhetoric from every one of you. My points leave you speechless, without any thoughtful retort other than to repeat the insults and denigrations you've become known for. I've turned you into caricatures. Laughing stocks full of huff and puff without any substance. I keep hoping that one day, one of you will attempt to engage me on an intellectual level, and you just keep disappointing me.

From time to time, Breeze seems like he/she may be capable of intellectual thought, but then the posts seem to meander off into a vapor trail of incoherent thought that makes little sense to anyone but Breeze. Then there's Moonbat and his trusty sidekick Brucey, The Dynamic Duo of Distortion and Distraction, with their superpower of being able to take any statement or word completely out of context or replacing their questions after answers are given. They fancy themselves as word gymnasts, but at least they are being creative and entertaining, while you are just being a bore.

It's interesting that you repeatedly talk about others trying to insult you and being unable to find a reasoned response because of their anger, yet I've seen at least as many insults coming from you as any other poster in this thread.

 

[Boss]

It's interesting that you repeatedly talk about others trying to insult you and being unable to find a reasoned response because of their anger, yet I've seen at least as many insults coming from you as any other poster in this thread.

Hey... I said you were creative and entertaining! That was a compliment.

 

[HUGGY]

Honesty, being smart, not living a lie, not living in fear, all starts with the realization that man is a spiritually-connected being, always has been, always will be. You can reject religion and man-made dogma, you cannot reject human spirituality. It's an intrinsic part of who we are. Some people can live without acknowledging it by substituting worship of self or other materialist things but this almost always leads to dissatisfaction, the feeling that something is missing, some need is not being fulfilled. You then seek to fill that emptiness with pleasures of the flesh, drugs, alcohol, sex, pornography, adultery, promiscuity, indulgence, gluttony, even self-mutilation. And you can trick your mind into believing the emptiness is filled for many years, maybe even your entire lifetime.

Nonsense. You have no experience living with truth so just like those that have faith in the fairy tales of the bible you are basing those words off of someone else's ideas. I have no need or desire to substitute for reality and truth. Unlike what you say and appear to have convinced yourself I look forward to each day as knowledge unfolds the mysteries some others need to reject as they come in conflict of previously ingrained incorrect assumptions.

To the contrary, I have 54 years of experience which you simply know nothing about. My ideas are my own, based on my life experiences. You have deluded yourself into believing a lie and you are attempting to make it truth by proclaiming it a truth and condemning the truth as the lie.

What you appear to look forward to each day is coming here to continue trying to tear down something you disdain and revile. You do this because you are not fulfilled, you need constant reassurance from people like yourself, and you find them here engaging in the same behavior day after day. It never seems to occur to you that you're getting nowhere, there are no minds being changed, you aren't winning anyone over to your side, and it's all a completely pointless endeavor. This proverbial banging of your head against a brick wall, only serves to pacify your need for validation.

Many things never materialize in life. Like they say about winning the lottery "You can't win if you don't play". As far as "squandered" opportunity goes there is far more to a life lived than such a negative glib descrption encompasses as choices made and energy used being neccessarily laziness or ignorance when things didn't work out how one may have envisioned with the best of intentions and effort. This is usually true in everyone's life. Much of life's dissappointments occur by something as simple as health...yours or someone elses. Also we don't live in a vaccume. We are affected by others choices especially when we are young and depend on decisions of our parents and siblings. Lamenting about what could have been is entertaining as one has played a leading part in the drama or comedy but an active mind cannot afford to waste the moment with too much reverie.

And here we find the heart of the matter for you. I am willing to bet that you grew up in a fairly "religious" family, perhaps with parents who made you attend church services regularly and expected you to behave in a moral and decent manner. Am I correct? The reason I say this is because of your comment about parents and siblings, and your continued references to "youth" and how those influences affect our choices and decisions in life. So what has happened here is resentful rebellion against your upbringing. You see your parents, perhaps your siblings as well, as misguided and hypocritical. And here's the deal, you may be completely justified to have those feelings. Your parents and siblings may have been completely misguided religious hypocrites. That simply doesn't negate Spiritual Nature and God or mean it doesn't exist.

To be brief you are in error. The only book that matters is the one you write for yourself. There is no script already written for you and yours will never fit someone else. As I mentioned before once you have lived long enough attempting to satisfy an idea like religion or realizing someone else's concept of spirituality you have already gone too far down the rabit hole and there is no retrieving your own path. Certainly if we chose to live socially there are limits to our personal choices but what goes on between your ears is no ones business unless you are foolish enough to allow it.

Again, we see evidence that you are dealing with emotional repression and resentment over how you were raised. This has manifest itself into a complete distrust of all things spiritual, and that is YOUR error. Spiritual connection is deeply personal, no one can tell you how to best comprehend your intrinsic awareness of it. Some people adopt a religious faith, others like myself, maintain spiritual fidelity by embracing the power found inside us all. It's NEVER too late to do this, you can start this very moment. It is very easy to give up disbelief and begin down the path of truth. You don't have to subscribe to anyone's religious dogma, or even admit anything here in some confessional, you just need to come to the realization of truth personally in your own mind. Like you say, what goes on between your ears is no one's business unless you're foolish enough to allow it.

You are in error about my upbringing. No matter. I should have substituted the word "one" for "you" a couple of times as my response wasn't meant to be so personal as YOUR response indicated. I have no way of knowing what you read or saw or heard as truth. I assumed, which as usual, was a mistake that you understood the conteaxt being more generic.

To be more clear. There is no spiritual connection. You/one can convince your/one's self of ANYTHING as is simple to prove if under the influence of LSD or less chemically intrusive just normal dreams. Perhaps you/someone came to some special realization when in a dream state that seemed too impressive to give one's self credit for it's generation.

 

[Boss]

There is no spiritual connection.

I disagree, but more importantly, the history of human civilization also disagrees.

 

[sealybobo]

Well I have repeatedly stated that I am not a Christian. I know many of you find this hard to believe, but it doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not. I'm certainly not any kind of "fundamentalist" but when it comes to stories told in the translated scriptures we call The Bible, I have to take exception with what you are saying here. You see, back in the day, they didn't have printing presses and photography, they couldn't convey stories any other way than through spoken words. Since that was the only tool they could use, the stories were very often metaphorical and sometimes even embellished or exaggerated for effect. It doesn't mean they were totally false, but they weren't always literally true either. The stories are often presented to illustrate some important point or convey something fundamental.

Christianity, in relation to human existence, is still a relatively new way of humans connecting to Spiritual Nature. This phenomenon has been happening in some incarnation for as long as man has existed on the planet. Every archeological dig confirms it, there is no question about it, humans have always been spiritually-connected to something greater than self. Are Christians right? I don't know for certain, but since Christianity is something created by man in an attempt to understand his spirituality, I would say that it's likely they aren't completely right or wrong. This is why I am not a Christian. Nor do I subscribe to any organized religious theocracy, I think they are all flawed because man is flawed.

Still, I believe there is something greater than self. I humbly submit, I don't "believe" because I have "faith" but because I know this force exists. If I had no evidence for that, I couldn't believe it. So what should I do with that knowledge? Pretend it's not there? Pretend I don't know about it or feel it's presence? That doesn't seem to be a rational behavior to me. Besides, I gain tremendous benefit from embracing this force, it empowers me and gives me encouragement, inspires me and gives me hope. Why would I ever want to abandon that? To be more cool? To be liked by others? No, I will keep believing in what I know is truth, and you can keep disbelieving... it doesn't bother me in the least.

You are very close to the truth my brother. Keep thinking. You are correct about the organized religions. They are all just man's ATTEMPT to understand what we can not understand. But just because for hundreds of thousands of years man has believed in a higher power that doesn't prove anything. I use to think that too. I use to say I don't buy Christianity but I believe there must be a God. But my reasons are flawed. And science tells us that it is because our brains evolved to be smart enough to be curious that our intelligent minds came up with God. And this is funny to me because back then our intelligence is what made us come up with God but today I consider anyone who believes in God to be stupid. Also funny is that there are very intelligent people who believe. That doesn't matter why? The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

First of all, we're not brothers. I didn't come from a monkey, I was created by God. Setting that issue aside, let me address some of your 'finer' points....

But my reasons are flawed. And science tells us that it is because our brains evolved to be smart enough to be curious that our intelligent minds came up with God. And this is funny to me because back then our intelligence is what made us come up with God but today I consider anyone who believes in God to be stupid. Also funny is that there are very intelligent people who believe.​

So you figure we are SO intelligent that we had to create an imaginary placebo to console our fears of death and the unknown? As you say, this is "funny" in fact, it makes no rational sense whatsoever. Furthermore, that we (being as intelligent as we are) have mysteriously clung to this false belief for our entire existence in spite of knowledge and science.

If these theories of man creating spiritual beliefs to console fears of mortality were true, we'd expect to see evidence in nature of the same thing happening with other species of life. Higher primates like chimps and great apes, would likely be mimicking some semblance of spirituality, trying to grapple with their mortality. Perhaps not to the degree of forming actual "religions" but at least performing ritual ceremonies and customs... we simply see no signs of this. It doesn't seem to be a big nagging and troublesome problem for other species to accept they are mortal.

Rational thought says the reason man has these "fears of mortality" is because they are spiritually aware of something immortal. It is our spiritual connection which causes this fear, not the other way around. There are literally hundreds of thousands of ways humans have invented to comprehend and understand this intrinsic spiritual connection we have. This is the source of all religion. It is not because we "had to invent something" it's because we are intrinsically aware of something.

Likewise, the meme of "man created religion to explain the unexplained" is also without rational basis. Man created SCIENCE to explain the unexplained. He created religion to explain his intrinsic awareness of something greater than self, his spiritual connection.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.
​

Precisely, but the "evidence" shows that humans have always had this intrinsic connection to something beyond the physical. Reason tells us there must be a purpose for this. If there were, in fact, nothing to it and it's all in our heads, man would have abandoned it long ago like they have superstitions and mythological beliefs. Science has been around for centuries, explaining away all the great mysteries, but human spirituality has continued to flourish. Even through periods of brutal reprisal and persecution where millions of people have been killed in the name of their spiritual beliefs. It's something that simply cannot be stomped out of the hearts and minds of mankind, no matter how hard it is tried. We remain highly spiritual creatures with 90% of the species still believing in something greater than self. Even the most devout Darwinist would have to conclude there is a fundamental reason for the attribute to exist in humans.

I'm going to stop you right there. No sir, apes and monkey's don't have brains big enough or enough intelligence to be religious, spiritual or superstitious.

Yes you did come from a monkey. Evolution is no longer a theory it's a fact.

So you believe in god, even though you have zero real hard evidence/proof and you know all the organized religions are made up, because you have a feeling he is real and because human's have from the beginning always believed? I used to think the same way. But now I think the opposite. I think, "wait a minute, if men created.made up God long before the christians, jews and muslims and they basically ripped off those earlier religions, then basically unevolved/uneducated human's made up God and why would I believe just because they made it up? You'll have to do better than that.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

 

[sealybobo]

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. Belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

 

[HUGGY]

There is no spiritual connection.

I disagree, but more importantly, the history of human civilization also disagrees.

The invention of the philipps screw head was a change in history. We must remember to not attempt to fasten it with the historically usefull flat blade scew driver. Some people still do using the addage that the flat bladed screw driver has always worked thruout history.

 

[HUGGY]

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. Belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

Gotta go with the "Bobo" on this one. AND.. Yes...we ARE descended from apes. The genetics are clear on this point.

 

[sealybobo]

There is no spiritual connection.

I disagree, but more importantly, the history of human civilization also disagrees.

The standard of evidence required to prove a god’s existence is more than any personal anecdote, witness testimony, ancient book or reported miracle. None of these things can be considered reliable.

Every conceivable argument, every imaginable piece of evidence for god is not without some fatal flaw or more likely explanation which precludes it from being used as definitive proof.

What evidence would we believe? God is what it would take to convince an atheist. An omniscient god would know the exact standard of evidence required to convince any atheist of its existence and, being omnipotent, it would also be able to immediately produce this evidence. If it wanted to, a god could conceivably change the brain chemistry of any individual in order to compel them to believe. It could even restructure the entire universe in such a way as to make non-belief impossible.

In short, a god actually proving its own existence is what would convince any atheist of said god’s existence.

Doesn't seem like god is all knowing and all powerful. The christian god seems jealous, petty, insecure, etc. So obvious.

At least you realize christians and muslims are full of shit. Until a couple weeks ago I agreed with you. I didn't buy into organized religion but I still had a personal relationship with God. Ever since I've hung out with my athiest friends and watched the Cosmos and done my research, I know there is no god. And even if there is, he wouldn't give a shit what I think or say, just like he doesn't care when you swat a fly or mosquito. That is just man wishing he was more than what we are, which is nothing more than the smartest animals on this planet. Is it amazing? Sure is. But does that prove god exists? No. And even if he does, he's not watching you jack off at night. That I'm sure of. Well actually I'm agnostic on it all because you can't prove or disprove something that isn't real. Can you prove the boogy man doesn't exist? So does that mean he does because people invented him in their minds? How about Santa?

 

[Hollie]

There is no spiritual connection.

I disagree, but more importantly, the history of human civilization also disagrees.

Most importantly, your typically vacant "because I say so" commandment is hardly fit for grown up conversation.

 

[HUGGY]

There is no spiritual connection.

I disagree, but more importantly, the history of human civilization also disagrees.

The standard of evidence required to prove a god’s existence is more than any personal anecdote, witness testimony, ancient book or reported miracle. None of these things can be considered reliable.

Every conceivable argument, every imaginable piece of evidence for god is not without some fatal flaw or more likely explanation which precludes it from being used as definitive proof.

What evidence would we believe? God is what it would take to convince an atheist. An omniscient god would know the exact standard of evidence required to convince any atheist of its existence and, being omnipotent, it would also be able to immediately produce this evidence. If it wanted to, a god could conceivably change the brain chemistry of any individual in order to compel them to believe. It could even restructure the entire universe in such a way as to make non-belief impossible.

In short, a god actually proving its own existence is what would convince any atheist of said god’s existence.

Doesn't seem like god is all knowing and all powerful. The christian god seems jealous, petty, insecure, etc. So obvious.

At least you realize christians and muslims are full of shit. Until a couple weeks ago I agreed with you. I didn't buy into organized religion but I still had a personal relationship with God. Ever since I've hung out with my athiest friends and watched the Cosmos and done my research, I know there is no god. And even if there is, he wouldn't give a shit what I think or say, just like he doesn't care when you swat a fly or mosquito. That is just man wishing he was more than what we are, which is nothing more than the smartest animals on this planet. Is it amazing? Sure is. But does that prove god exists? No. And even if he does, he's not watching you jack off at night. That I'm sure of. Well actually I'm agnostic on it all because you can't prove or disprove something that isn't real. Can you prove the boogy man doesn't exist? So does that mean he does because people invented him in their minds? How about Santa?

Millions of children believe in Santa. They have proof on the cards on their presents marked "from Santa". It's unfortunate that all the millions of cards and tags were thrown out in the trash. That makes a handwriting analysis impossible. STILL... there were millions of witnesses that saw the hand written tags on the presents...

 

[sealybobo]

There is no spiritual connection.

I disagree, but more importantly, the history of human civilization also disagrees.

No doubt the majority of humans are, without any good reasons, religious. Muslims kids when they are born are told the lie just like we are told the lie. The strange thing is so many of us at a certain age realize santa is not real because the story just doesn't add up. But yet the same people don't use the same logic and reasoning with God. Probably because everyone else around them believes in god. Maybe not the christian God, like this guy we are arguing with realizes that all organized religion is bullshit yet he still believes in a higher power. They say, "nothing can come from nothing", but then they are ok with a fairytale man in the sky coming from nothing. They try to use logic when inventing an invisible man in the sky but they believe snakes talked, men lived to be 800 years old, mary had a virgin birth, etc. And the ones who don't believe those stories to be literal need to have a conversation with their preachers and fellow church members because a lot of them say you have to believe all of it literally or you aren't a real christian. I so wish they would force that issue so a lot of people would wake up. I talked to a DOGMA Catholic the other day. I told her I wished her church would draw a line in the sand and say either you believe all this shit literally or leave the church. I WISH they would do that but they allow non believers to be members because they want their money!!!

 

[sealybobo]

There is no spiritual connection.

I disagree, but more importantly, the history of human civilization also disagrees.

Most importantly, your typically vacant "because I say so" commandment is hardly fit for grown up conversation.

He wants to forget that throughout history the church has punished science for their findings. Galileo affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We've been forced to believe for almost 2000 years. The enlightenment period was a huge step forward and out of the cave we came out of when we were uneducated primative cavement.

 

[sealybobo]

No offense to my grandmother with a 3rd grade education, but she is the kind of people that were brainwashed for almost 2000 years to believe in god. I can remember her and my aunt trying to tell me what happened to all the billions of people who lived and died before the old testament. OMG I can't believe the shit they believe. She seems like a normal person in every other aspect yet here are these women who believe the unbelievable. Maybe they never questioned it because they don't want to go to hell. But anyone who believes the bible literally can't be all that smart.

 

[Boss]

I'm going to stop you right there. No sir, apes and monkey's don't have brains big enough or enough intelligence to be religious, spiritual or superstitious.

Intelligence? To invent a made-up fake thing that doesn't really exist so that we are consoled about our mortality? You think that took "intelligence" to do? I thought people who believed that were "stupid"? lol... now it took intelligence! Make up your mind!

The fact is, great apes have a larger brain than humans. Whales also have a larger brain and cerebral cortex. Chimps, dolphins and even crows have intelligence enough to learn things and rationalize thought. I would think if there were something to this theory, we'd see some inkling of evidence to support it elsewhere in nature, particularly if we're talking about "common ancestors" we supposedly evolved from. Bot nope... not a sign anywhere else in nature that other creatures are having a problem grappling with their mortality, it's only in humans.

Yes you did come from a monkey. Evolution is no longer a theory it's a fact.

Well, no it's not a fact. You can say that all you like, it's not going to make it true. Some species have shown the ability to change and adapt to environment spawning new species, but others have been unable to adapt and became extinct. Still others have never evolved much at all from their prehistoric states. There has never been one recorded and documented incident of any species evolving into a totally new genus. Besides that, science does not deal in conclusions, it has absolutely no use for any concluded fact, it can't evaluate further or explore any more possibilities once a fact has been concluded. Whenever you have drawn conclusion from science or elsewhere, you have stopped practicing science and began practicing faith. Science simply is not faith in conclusions.

So you believe in god, even though you have zero real hard evidence/proof and you know all the organized religions are made up, because you have a feeling he is real and because human's have from the beginning always believed? I used to think the same way. But now I think the opposite. I think, "wait a minute, if men created.made up God long before the christians, jews and muslims and they basically ripped off those earlier religions, then basically unevolved/uneducated human's made up God and why would I believe just because they made it up? You'll have to do better than that.

I have plenty of evidence, it's all around me. God's Creation! It's all the evidence I need. Just because you reject my evidence or don't believe it, doesn't mean I don't have it. I've merely tried to get you to understand your science doesn't support the supposition that man invented spirituality. Religions? Sure. Spirituality? No.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

And this is the part I don't know why you and others can't understand. I am not positing God in place of admitting ignorance, I am aware of God in my everyday life. It simply does not matter to me if you believe in God or not. I'm not here to get you to believe in God, but many of you think that is the case. I can share my experience that life with God is certainly better than life was without God, but if you aren't willing to accept that, there is nothing I can do about it. I'm certainly not going to ever turn my back on what I know is the truth so you'll accept me or stop insulting me and calling me names. If I were unsure or didn't know God existed, perhaps I could see that happening, but it's not going to happen because I know God is real.

Look... You know who your mother is, you know she exists and is real, correct? Well, what if I were here telling you that this is just a figment of imagination, that we tell ourselves we have mothers to console our fears of the unknown and help us cope with life? That mothers really don't exist and anyone who thinks they do are stupid and ignorant? Would that do a bit of good for you? Could I ever convince you that perhaps you're mother is not real and you've simply imagined her your whole life? The same applies to me with God.

 

[Montrovant]

It's interesting that you repeatedly talk about others trying to insult you and being unable to find a reasoned response because of their anger, yet I've seen at least as many insults coming from you as any other poster in this thread.

Hey... I said you were creative and entertaining! That was a compliment.

 

[Boss]

There is no spiritual connection.

I disagree, but more importantly, the history of human civilization also disagrees.

No doubt the majority of humans are, without any good reasons, religious.

I'm not talking about religions. I am talking about human spirituality. Humans connecting with something greater than self. This was going on long before any human had the idea to organize into groups of like-minded "religious" belief.

Muslims kids when they are born are told the lie just like we are told the lie. The strange thing is so many of us at a certain age realize santa is not real because the story just doesn't add up. But yet the same people don't use the same logic and reasoning with God.

Yeah, isn't that curious.... seems as if humans realized there was nothing to it, they'd just abandon the idea, but they haven't and they won't.

Probably because everyone else around them believes in god.

Probably? You mean you're not certain why? Let me suggest it's probably because there is some beneficial aspect to worshiping God.

Maybe not the christian God, like this guy we are arguing with realizes that all organized religion is bullshit yet he still believes in a higher power. They say, "nothing can come from nothing", but then they are ok with a fairytale man in the sky coming from nothing.

Well hold on, let's slow down a moment here and evaluate what you are saying. I don't know of any rational human who believes a physical man is living in the sky. When you say "comes from" do you mean "comes into existence"? We live in a physical universe comprised of material things. When we talk of things being "created" or coming into "existence" we are talking about the physical universe and material things. Obviously something CAN come from nothing because something is here. The question is, how did it come from nothing? Matter can't create matter or create itself. Logic says if there was no physical universe and something happened to create one, it wasn't something physical because physical didn't yet exist. God is not a physical property. Therefore, being that God is not a physical thing, it doesn't have to be created. So there is your answer to why people are okay with no explanation on what created God, and the same can apply to logic, gravity, space, time, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear force, dark matter and energy... even reality itself. What created those? What existed before space and time?

They try to use logic when inventing an invisible man in the sky but they believe snakes talked, men lived to be 800 years old, mary had a virgin birth, etc.

Again, no one who I know of that is sane, believes there is an invisible man in the sky. Unless we're talking about an infant who doesn't know any better. This is a very child-like incarnation of God, and frankly I thought you had more intelligence than that. Surely you don't think that people believe in a physical man who lives in the sky and is invisible? If that is your idea of what God is, I don't blame you one bit for not believing in God, that's some really crazy stuff.

God is a spiritual entity residing in a spiritual dimension. I say "entity" but perhaps "energy" is more appropriate, at least from MY perspective. It doesn't have a physical characteristic, therefore it is not visible. Now, there are plenty of real things in our universe that aren't visible, most notably dark matter and energy, which make up about 96% of the universe. So to laugh something off because it's invisible is really quite stupid.

And the ones who don't believe those stories to be literal need to have a conversation with their preachers and fellow church members because a lot of them say you have to believe all of it literally or you aren't a real christian.

Now you're getting back into an anti-religious rant, and this makes me think you are confusing spiritual with religious. I'm not a Christian, so I can't tell you what Christians say you have to believe to be one. I've heard that you have to accept Christ as your personal savior, but Breeze seems to think that is incorrect. Nevertheless, this has nothing to do with Spiritual Nature, which does exist in a spiritual dimension. I know that most of the Christians I know are Baptists, Southern Baptists to be specific, and they don't believe all those stories to be literal because I've spoken to pastors about them before. As I said earlier, many of the Biblical stories are old fables that were spoken and passed down through generations before being written and transcribed into the Scriptures. When people back then told stories, they had nothing but their words to convey meaning and context, so they often used metaphors and even created fictional scenarios to make a larger more profound point. Think of Spielberg making a movie of a "true story" and how the actual depiction in the movie might not be exactly verbatim how the event happened, but it is done to convey a meaning, to illustrate a point or capture your imagination. Now imagine people with no photography or illustration, no way to convey a story other than spoken words. Many things in the Bible that seem too fantastic to believe, are simply stories that have been told this way to convey a greater meaning.

But I am getting sidetracked here, this is not about The Bible or Christian religion, it's about Spiritual Nature and God. Human spiritual connection predates Christianity by tens of thousands of years. It's something humans have had since the very beginning. Guess what? It's not going to change.

 

[freedombecki]

They are abject failures, whose only joy in life is to attack people who are able to squeeze a modicom of happiness out of life.

They don't approve of happiness. That's why they want to kill babies, euthanise teh elderly, make everybody poor, and turn our health system into crap.

That about sums it up.

I ran across a George Washington quotation recently that summarizes the outcome of atheism, and I believe he had it right: "the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained." April 30, 1789, First Inaugural Address of President George Washington.

"The Prayer at Valley Forge" by Arnold Friberg
Read more at Religion and politics, together again​

Arnold Friberg's "The Prayer at Valley Forge"