Why do the God-haters persist?

[Boss]

They are abject failures, whose only joy in life is to attack people who are able to squeeze a modicom of happiness out of life.

They don't approve of happiness. That's why they want to kill babies, euthanise teh elderly, make everybody poor, and turn our health system into crap.

That about sums it up.

I ran across a George Washington quotation recently that summarizes the outcome of atheism, and I believe he had it right: "the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained." April 30, 1789, First Inaugural Address of President George Washington.

"The Prayer at Valley Forge" by Arnold Friberg
Read more at Religion and politics, together again​

Arnold Friberg's "The Prayer at Valley Forge"

Yeah, but Washington didn't have all these 'super-intellectual' liberals around to tell him how there was a wall of separation between church and state and that we're a secular nation.

 

[thanatos144]

You are very close to the truth my brother. Keep thinking. You are correct about the organized religions. They are all just man's ATTEMPT to understand what we can not understand. But just because for hundreds of thousands of years man has believed in a higher power that doesn't prove anything. I use to think that too. I use to say I don't buy Christianity but I believe there must be a God. But my reasons are flawed. And science tells us that it is because our brains evolved to be smart enough to be curious that our intelligent minds came up with God. And this is funny to me because back then our intelligence is what made us come up with God but today I consider anyone who believes in God to be stupid. Also funny is that there are very intelligent people who believe. That doesn't matter why? The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

First of all, we're not brothers. I didn't come from a monkey, I was created by God. Setting that issue aside, let me address some of your 'finer' points....

But my reasons are flawed. And science tells us that it is because our brains evolved to be smart enough to be curious that our intelligent minds came up with God. And this is funny to me because back then our intelligence is what made us come up with God but today I consider anyone who believes in God to be stupid. Also funny is that there are very intelligent people who believe.​

So you figure we are SO intelligent that we had to create an imaginary placebo to console our fears of death and the unknown? As you say, this is "funny" in fact, it makes no rational sense whatsoever. Furthermore, that we (being as intelligent as we are) have mysteriously clung to this false belief for our entire existence in spite of knowledge and science.

If these theories of man creating spiritual beliefs to console fears of mortality were true, we'd expect to see evidence in nature of the same thing happening with other species of life. Higher primates like chimps and great apes, would likely be mimicking some semblance of spirituality, trying to grapple with their mortality. Perhaps not to the degree of forming actual "religions" but at least performing ritual ceremonies and customs... we simply see no signs of this. It doesn't seem to be a big nagging and troublesome problem for other species to accept they are mortal.

Rational thought says the reason man has these "fears of mortality" is because they are spiritually aware of something immortal. It is our spiritual connection which causes this fear, not the other way around. There are literally hundreds of thousands of ways humans have invented to comprehend and understand this intrinsic spiritual connection we have. This is the source of all religion. It is not because we "had to invent something" it's because we are intrinsically aware of something.

Likewise, the meme of "man created religion to explain the unexplained" is also without rational basis. Man created SCIENCE to explain the unexplained. He created religion to explain his intrinsic awareness of something greater than self, his spiritual connection.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.
​

Precisely, but the "evidence" shows that humans have always had this intrinsic connection to something beyond the physical. Reason tells us there must be a purpose for this. If there were, in fact, nothing to it and it's all in our heads, man would have abandoned it long ago like they have superstitions and mythological beliefs. Science has been around for centuries, explaining away all the great mysteries, but human spirituality has continued to flourish. Even through periods of brutal reprisal and persecution where millions of people have been killed in the name of their spiritual beliefs. It's something that simply cannot be stomped out of the hearts and minds of mankind, no matter how hard it is tried. We remain highly spiritual creatures with 90% of the species still believing in something greater than self. Even the most devout Darwinist would have to conclude there is a fundamental reason for the attribute to exist in humans.

I'm going to stop you right there. No sir, apes and monkey's don't have brains big enough or enough intelligence to be religious, spiritual or superstitious.

Yes you did come from a monkey. Evolution is no longer a theory it's a fact.

So you believe in god, even though you have zero real hard evidence/proof and you know all the organized religions are made up, because you have a feeling he is real and because human's have from the beginning always believed? I used to think the same way. But now I think the opposite. I think, "wait a minute, if men created.made up God long before the christians, jews and muslims and they basically ripped off those earlier religions, then basically unevolved/uneducated human's made up God and why would I believe just because they made it up? You'll have to do better than that.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

You're Lying. There is none and never will be any proof we came from any monkey or ape.

 

[thanatos144]

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. Belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

Gotta go with the "Bobo" on this one. AND.. Yes...we ARE descended from apes. The genetics are clear on this point.

You're lying as well.

 

[Hollie]

They are abject failures, whose only joy in life is to attack people who are able to squeeze a modicom of happiness out of life.

They don't approve of happiness. That's why they want to kill babies, euthanise teh elderly, make everybody poor, and turn our health system into crap.

That about sums it up.

I ran across a George Washington quotation recently that summarizes the outcome of atheism, and I believe he had it right: "the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained." April 30, 1789, First Inaugural Address of President George Washington.

"The Prayer at Valley Forge" by Arnold Friberg
Read more at Religion and politics, together again​

Arnold Friberg's "The Prayer at Valley Forge"

Yeah, but Washington didn't have all these 'super-intellectual' liberals around to tell him how there was a wall of separation between church and state and that we're a secular nation.

As brain dead as your usual piffle.

Nothing in the founding documents of this nation was framed to prevent people from believing as they wish.

Identify a single element in the constitution, for example, that would prevent the self expression as identified in the painting.

 

[orogenicman]

First of all, we're not brothers. I didn't come from a monkey, I was created by God. Setting that issue aside, let me address some of your 'finer' points....

But my reasons are flawed. And science tells us that it is because our brains evolved to be smart enough to be curious that our intelligent minds came up with God. And this is funny to me because back then our intelligence is what made us come up with God but today I consider anyone who believes in God to be stupid. Also funny is that there are very intelligent people who believe.​

So you figure we are SO intelligent that we had to create an imaginary placebo to console our fears of death and the unknown? As you say, this is "funny" in fact, it makes no rational sense whatsoever. Furthermore, that we (being as intelligent as we are) have mysteriously clung to this false belief for our entire existence in spite of knowledge and science.

If these theories of man creating spiritual beliefs to console fears of mortality were true, we'd expect to see evidence in nature of the same thing happening with other species of life. Higher primates like chimps and great apes, would likely be mimicking some semblance of spirituality, trying to grapple with their mortality. Perhaps not to the degree of forming actual "religions" but at least performing ritual ceremonies and customs... we simply see no signs of this. It doesn't seem to be a big nagging and troublesome problem for other species to accept they are mortal.

Rational thought says the reason man has these "fears of mortality" is because they are spiritually aware of something immortal. It is our spiritual connection which causes this fear, not the other way around. There are literally hundreds of thousands of ways humans have invented to comprehend and understand this intrinsic spiritual connection we have. This is the source of all religion. It is not because we "had to invent something" it's because we are intrinsically aware of something.

Likewise, the meme of "man created religion to explain the unexplained" is also without rational basis. Man created SCIENCE to explain the unexplained. He created religion to explain his intrinsic awareness of something greater than self, his spiritual connection.

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.
​

Precisely, but the "evidence" shows that humans have always had this intrinsic connection to something beyond the physical. Reason tells us there must be a purpose for this. If there were, in fact, nothing to it and it's all in our heads, man would have abandoned it long ago like they have superstitions and mythological beliefs. Science has been around for centuries, explaining away all the great mysteries, but human spirituality has continued to flourish. Even through periods of brutal reprisal and persecution where millions of people have been killed in the name of their spiritual beliefs. It's something that simply cannot be stomped out of the hearts and minds of mankind, no matter how hard it is tried. We remain highly spiritual creatures with 90% of the species still believing in something greater than self. Even the most devout Darwinist would have to conclude there is a fundamental reason for the attribute to exist in humans.

I'm going to stop you right there. No sir, apes and monkey's don't have brains big enough or enough intelligence to be religious, spiritual or superstitious.

Yes you did come from a monkey. Evolution is no longer a theory it's a fact.

So you believe in god, even though you have zero real hard evidence/proof and you know all the organized religions are made up, because you have a feeling he is real and because human's have from the beginning always believed? I used to think the same way. But now I think the opposite. I think, "wait a minute, if men created.made up God long before the christians, jews and muslims and they basically ripped off those earlier religions, then basically unevolved/uneducated human's made up God and why would I believe just because they made it up? You'll have to do better than that.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

You're Lying. There is none and never will be any proof we came from any monkey or ape.

Translation: "There will never be any evidence that I will accept that shows that man is an anthropoid ape because it doesn't say so in the Bible."

Except that, whether or not you believe there is evidence , there, in fact, is evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)

 

[orogenicman]

That about sums it up.

I ran across a George Washington quotation recently that summarizes the outcome of atheism, and I believe he had it right: "the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained." April 30, 1789, First Inaugural Address of President George Washington.

"The Prayer at Valley Forge" by Arnold Friberg
Read more at Religion and politics, together again​

Arnold Friberg's "The Prayer at Valley Forge"

Yeah, but Washington didn't have all these 'super-intellectual' liberals around to tell him how there was a wall of separation between church and state and that we're a secular nation.

As brain dead as your usual piffle.

Nothing in the founding documents of this nation was framed to prevent people from believing as they wish.

Identify a single element in the constitution, for example, that would prevent the self expression as identified in the painting.

Naw, he was just trying to find his wooden contact lens.

 

[thanatos144]

I'm going to stop you right there. No sir, apes and monkey's don't have brains big enough or enough intelligence to be religious, spiritual or superstitious.

Yes you did come from a monkey. Evolution is no longer a theory it's a fact.

So you believe in god, even though you have zero real hard evidence/proof and you know all the organized religions are made up, because you have a feeling he is real and because human's have from the beginning always believed? I used to think the same way. But now I think the opposite. I think, "wait a minute, if men created.made up God long before the christians, jews and muslims and they basically ripped off those earlier religions, then basically unevolved/uneducated human's made up God and why would I believe just because they made it up? You'll have to do better than that.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

You're Lying. There is none and never will be any proof we came from any monkey or ape.

Translation: "There will never be any evidence that I will accept that shows that man is an anthropoid ape because it doesn't say so in the Bible."

Except that, whether or not you believe there is evidence , there, in fact, is evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)

No dummy there will never be proof because we didn't come from monkeys ....

 

[orogenicman]

You're Lying. There is none and never will be any proof we came from any monkey or ape.

Translation: "There will never be any evidence that I will accept that shows that man is an anthropoid ape because it doesn't say so in the Bible."

Except that, whether or not you believe there is evidence , there, in fact, is evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)

No dummy there will never be proof because we didn't come from monkeys ....

You are right, we didn't come from monkeys. Monkeys are a different family of primates. We are descended from a common ancestor of the great apes of Africa. They aren't our ancestral brothers. They are our ancestral cousins.

 

[HUGGY]

The existence and non-existence of a god are not equally probable outcomes. Belief is not as valid a position as skepticism when dealing with unsupported or unfalsifiable claims. Agnostic atheism is the most rational position.

Gotta go with the "Bobo" on this one. AND.. Yes...we ARE descended from apes. The genetics are clear on this point.

You're lying as well.

No lie. I swear on a stack of 2000 year old adventure novels.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm going to stop you right there. No sir, apes and monkey's don't have brains big enough or enough intelligence to be religious, spiritual or superstitious.

Intelligence? To invent a made-up fake thing that doesn't really exist so that we are consoled about our mortality? You think that took "intelligence" to do? I thought people who believed that were "stupid"? lol... now it took intelligence! Make up your mind!

The fact is, great apes have a larger brain than humans. Whales also have a larger brain and cerebral cortex. Chimps, dolphins and even crows have intelligence enough to learn things and rationalize thought. I would think if there were something to this theory, we'd see some inkling of evidence to support it elsewhere in nature, particularly if we're talking about "common ancestors" we supposedly evolved from. Bot nope... not a sign anywhere else in nature that other creatures are having a problem grappling with their mortality, it's only in humans.

Yes you did come from a monkey. Evolution is no longer a theory it's a fact.

Well, no it's not a fact. You can say that all you like, it's not going to make it true. Some species have shown the ability to change and adapt to environment spawning new species, but others have been unable to adapt and became extinct. Still others have never evolved much at all from their prehistoric states. There has never been one recorded and documented incident of any species evolving into a totally new genus. Besides that, science does not deal in conclusions, it has absolutely no use for any concluded fact, it can't evaluate further or explore any more possibilities once a fact has been concluded. Whenever you have drawn conclusion from science or elsewhere, you have stopped practicing science and began practicing faith. Science simply is not faith in conclusions.

So you believe in god, even though you have zero real hard evidence/proof and you know all the organized religions are made up, because you have a feeling he is real and because human's have from the beginning always believed? I used to think the same way. But now I think the opposite. I think, "wait a minute, if men created.made up God long before the christians, jews and muslims and they basically ripped off those earlier religions, then basically unevolved/uneducated human's made up God and why would I believe just because they made it up? You'll have to do better than that.

I have plenty of evidence, it's all around me. God's Creation! It's all the evidence I need. Just because you reject my evidence or don't believe it, doesn't mean I don't have it. I've merely tried to get you to understand your science doesn't support the supposition that man invented spirituality. Religions? Sure. Spirituality? No.

The world is the way it is. Reality does not bend to our personal whim and facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Our personal belief in something does not automatically make it real or true and, conversely, our lack of understanding of a topic does not make it false.

Until we understand something we “do not know”. Positing a ‘god’ in place of admitting personal ignorance is an unfounded leap which demonstrates a fundamental lack of humility.

And this is the part I don't know why you and others can't understand. I am not positing God in place of admitting ignorance, I am aware of God in my everyday life. It simply does not matter to me if you believe in God or not. I'm not here to get you to believe in God, but many of you think that is the case. I can share my experience that life with God is certainly better than life was without God, but if you aren't willing to accept that, there is nothing I can do about it. I'm certainly not going to ever turn my back on what I know is the truth so you'll accept me or stop insulting me and calling me names. If I were unsure or didn't know God existed, perhaps I could see that happening, but it's not going to happen because I know God is real.

Look... You know who your mother is, you know she exists and is real, correct? Well, what if I were here telling you that this is just a figment of imagination, that we tell ourselves we have mothers to console our fears of the unknown and help us cope with life? That mothers really don't exist and anyone who thinks they do are stupid and ignorant? Would that do a bit of good for you? Could I ever convince you that perhaps you're mother is not real and you've simply imagined her your whole life? The same applies to me with God.

Where to start. First off, yes our brains as primitive as they were WERE also intelligent enough to be creative and have imaginations and come up with religion. They didn't know what a comit or thunder was so their primitive but somewhat intelligent minds came up with the concept. We were also smart enough to figure out how to rub sticks together and make fire. But today that doesn't make you smart, right??? You do get that right??? So we were intelligent enough to come up with speech and tell stories. That's it. And how do you know dolfins don't believe in a God? I suspect they don't but how do you know? Crows and Dogs aren't smart enough and apes are a branch off of our ancestors. If you gave them a 1000 years modern apes won't evolve into humans. Science has explained all this but you don't believe or know the facts so whatever you want to think is fine with me but you have zero proof of your beliefs. Nothing concrete science can use to verify. Anecdote - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We don't know everything dolfins or whales know. And who will eventually find out? Scientists, the same ones who say there is no god. Maybe the whales will tell us differently. But then again, they better have proof.

And I don't buy life is better with god than without. I think we'd all be better off without it. Look at those 300 girls who got kidnapped. Those people want to impose Sharia law over there. Religion if you ask me is the root of all evil. Yes there are good religous people out there, but a lot more are not good. They are hypocrites. I was watching Louis CK last night and he said, "I drive a $50K infinity. How many people died today so I can drive my car. I could easily have a $20K ford focus but I choose to spend $30K more and I know that $30K would save a lot of starving people yet I go to sleep every night no problem". If religious people were so fucking good, we wouldn't have all the poverty and death that we have. How many people did you say believe in a higher power? 90%? Are you suggesting all the raping, murder and thieves are athiests? Think again buddy. Look at how religous people are destroying the planet with carbon and plastic. This planet will be a lot better off when Jesus comes and takes all the christians home and mohammad can come get their retarded muslim counterparts. Praying 7 times a day to the east. Fools. Yea, they are much better off with religion. Meanwhile my mom doesn't have a cure for Alzheimers because religious fools don't like killing seeds. FOOLS! I wish you all to heaven.

P.S. You have provided some interesting points but still no proof. Just your faith and feelings and beliefs. Not proof. And boy what a cop out. I believe in God but not any of the religions. I know all the religions are completey made up but I still believe in God. I told you Boss I thought the same way up until about a month ago. That is not intelligent rational logical thought. You believe despite having zero proof. And that's ok. It's a step in the right direction.

 

[sealybobo]

You're Lying. There is none and never will be any proof we came from any monkey or ape.

Translation: "There will never be any evidence that I will accept that shows that man is an anthropoid ape because it doesn't say so in the Bible."

Except that, whether or not you believe there is evidence , there, in fact, is evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)

No dummy there will never be proof because we didn't come from monkeys ....

Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming.

 

[sealybobo]

You're Lying. There is none and never will be any proof we came from any monkey or ape.

Translation: "There will never be any evidence that I will accept that shows that man is an anthropoid ape because it doesn't say so in the Bible."

Except that, whether or not you believe there is evidence , there, in fact, is evidence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)

No dummy there will never be proof because we didn't come from monkeys ....

If you have red hair your great great great great great x 10 granddaddy fucked a neanderdal

Red hair a legacy of Neanderthal man

 

[sealybobo]

Boss is aware of God in his everyday life. Really? That's all the proof anyone should need that he's not looking at this from an intellectual fact based perspective. This is all emotional stuff. So chalk this up to magical thinking, credulity or misattribution

 

[sealybobo]

Personal revelation cannot be independently verified. They are usually emotional or perceptual and therefore unremarkable among the many cognitive processes that the brain exhibits, including dreams and hallucinations. Spiritual and religious experiences are not only inconsistent among individuals but are attributed to different gods, aliens, spirits, rituals, hallucinations, meditation etc. The fact that medical conditions and other natural processes can induce these experiences is evidence they are produced by our brain. So it doesn't matter if Boss feels god all around him. So do 90% of the people out there according to Boss. Doesn't mean they are right. Doesn't matter if people believed for 100,000 years either. Our ancestors being afraid of the unknown is why they invented God. Its also why you beleive today. That and we've been brainwashed since we were babies for thousands of years. Science has also proved that being religious also helped pass on your gene. For example, if every girl in America is a christian, if I want to pass on my gene I better be one too. And how many of us believe or don't question because we don't want to go to hell?

 

[BreezeWood]

We don't know everything dolfins or whales know.

That is not intelligent rational logical thought.

there is nothing living that does not have Spirituality ....

logical thought is not physiological nor absolute - the cherry tree does not have a central nervous center (brain) and though bossy & compy etc. disclaims the hierarchical intelligence - as fools, this example with no exception is appealing to something other than self. visualization is a proof where thought is the impediment.

.

 

[Boss]

Where to start. First off, yes our brains as primitive as they were WERE also intelligent enough to be creative and have imaginations and come up with religion. They didn't know what a comit or thunder was so their primitive but somewhat intelligent minds came up with the concept. We were also smart enough to figure out how to rub sticks together and make fire. But today that doesn't make you smart, right??? You do get that right???

Yet new religions keep getting invented every day! You said yourself, even the Atheists are creating churches. Now I think we all know what causes thunder, some of us even know what "comets" are and how to spell it! lol

Uh oh.... looks like your point was just totally demolished! Humans imagine and create religion to address their intrinsic awareness of something greater than self.

 

[Boss]

And I don't buy life is better with god than without....
You have provided some interesting points but still no proof.

Frankly, I don't care what you buy. For me, life is better with God than without.
As I said, I have all the proof I need. You rejecting my proof doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Boss]

Our ancestors being afraid of the unknown is why they invented God.

I already used science to demonstrate this is not true.

 

[Boss]

there is nothing living that does not have Spirituality ....

Breezy's interesting theory that all life is spiritual. I can't argue with this, but doesn't it kind of shoot in the foot the idea that God doesn't exist? That it's all in our heads? That man invented God? I mean, if cherry blossoms are aware of God, what is their excuse? Are they afraid of the dark too?

 

[Montrovant]

Our ancestors being afraid of the unknown is why they invented God.

I already used science to demonstrate this is not true.

Wait, what? You used science to demonstrate it isn't true? I think I must have missed that....