Why do the God-haters persist?

[Boss]

We also left England because of economic oppression but like religion, it seems it followed us over from England. The churches still have a lot of power/influence over the masses. Not as much as back in the day but still it has a lot of sway with the naive.

Well, let's see... You've failed at science and math already, and now it appears you fail history as well. This explains a lot of what is wrong with you.

Did you never learn about the Puritans and Plymouth Rock? You see, they were the first settlers. They came here to escape religious persecution in England. It wasn't because of their LACK of religion. They got along fine with the Native Americans, in fact, they established the tradition we know today as Thanksgiving. Most of us learned about this in 2nd grade, but apparently you were in the special ed class and missed it.

Yes, the "masses" are mostly religious. You've acknowledged this several times. The vast minority are non-religious idiots like you. In fact, your type represent less than two out of ten people. You are very much a societal outcast and you always will be.

You might want to crack open a history book. The Puritans left England for religious reasons, mainly because they wanted to set up a theocracy under their own ideas and James I told them to get bent. They all but managed to do that when Cromwell cut off Charles I's head in 1649 and the Puritans became politically powerful during the Commonwealth and their policies were so unpopular (e.g. closing the theaters because plays are immoral) that when Charles II restored the crown England rejoiced. Those that went to Holland in the 1610s were told to leave because they were obnoxious assholes who kept harassing the Dutch locals about how immoral and wicked they were because they didn't subscribe to the Puritan ideals of what was proper.

Also, the Pilgrims didn't get along with the locals in the New World as much as you think. The first thing they did after getting off the Mayflower was to plunder some native food stores, something I'm sure the Indians were thrilled about come winter time.

If you're interested, there's a great book on the subject.
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Mayflower-Story-Courage-Community-War/dp/0143111973]Mayflower: A Story of Courage, Community, and War: Nathaniel Philbrick: 9780143111979: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]


EDIT: To clarify that some Puritans left for Holland ad some stayed in England. Those that went to Holland and then the New World obviously weren't in England when Charles I was executed.

Yeah, but I'm not arguing for the virtue of the Puritans or what transpired in England. The conversation was about America and why we came here. It was not because of economic oppression. An argument might be made that was the reason we fought for independence from England, but it had little to do with original settlers.

Yeah, yeah.. Religions have done bad things... seems to be an ongoing theme with Atheists. They've also done a lot of good things, but you ignore that.

 

[Steven_R]

I'm not ignoring it, but the story that the Pilgrims were some poor, oppressed peoples who just wanted to be able to worship the way they wanted and the big, bad Church of England wouldn't let them isn't the whole story. The Puritans were the kind of obnoxious assholes who want restrictive laws because they don't like certain things and James I wouldn't go along with them. Those that left for Holland got kicked out of Holland because they just kept up their same nonsense and the Dutch finally got fed up with being told they were going to Hell for wearing yellow socks and wide brimmed hats which take away from the glory of God.

 

[Montrovant]

Yes, the original settlers wanted the freedom to practice their own religions, not be forced into a state run religion.

However, haven't you said more than once that you are not religious, Boss? Wouldn't that make you also a societal outcast, and perhaps also the vast minority of non-religious idiots?

They were NOT the original settlers.

They were the Johnnie come lately land thieves.

Maybe today it is far too late to repay the Native Americans for the theft of their property but back then it certainly was current business.

I believe that the scam to steal Native American land was far more incentive than any so called goody two shoes religious motivation.

Trust the white man to hide his true nature behind some nonsense about "god" and Jesus.

FYI: There were never any 'Atheist' Native Americans.

I hope you mean this in a societal, rather than individual, sense.

 

[Boss]

They were NOT the original settlers.

They were the Johnnie come lately land thieves.

Maybe today it is far too late to repay the Native Americans for the theft of their property but back then it certainly was current business.

I believe that the scam to steal Native American land was far more incentive than any so called goody two shoes religious motivation.

Trust the white man to hide his true nature behind some nonsense about "god" and Jesus.

FYI: There were never any 'Atheist' Native Americans.

I hope you mean this in a societal, rather than individual, sense.

I mean it in the general sense that every Native American believed in a Great Spirit. There were no "Atheist" Native Americans. They were very spiritual people, perhaps more so than their European counterparts.

 

[Montrovant]

FYI: There were never any 'Atheist' Native Americans.

I hope you mean this in a societal, rather than individual, sense.

I mean it in the general sense that every Native American believed in a Great Spirit. There were no "Atheist" Native Americans. They were very spiritual people, perhaps more so than their European counterparts.

That sounds like individual rather than societal; that you are saying no single Native American ever found him or her self lacking faith in a Great Spirit. I have no idea how you would possibly know that, so perhaps I'm mistaking your intent.

 

[Boss]

I hope you mean this in a societal, rather than individual, sense.

I mean it in the general sense that every Native American believed in a Great Spirit. There were no "Atheist" Native Americans. They were very spiritual people, perhaps more so than their European counterparts.

That sounds like individual rather than societal; that you are saying no single Native American ever found him or her self lacking faith in a Great Spirit. I have no idea how you would possibly know that, so perhaps I'm mistaking your intent.

This is the second time I've seen someone try to make an argument that simply "lacking faith" equates to Atheism. You can certainly "lack faith" in something but still believe it exists. Atheists do not believe God exists. Native Americans ALL believed in a Great Spirit. There may have been some who "lacked faith" in that Great Spirit at times, but the belief in the existence of a Great Spirit was universal. And I know this because I've studied Native American history my whole life.

Now... IF you have some evidence of Atheist Native Americans, please present it. I would love to see that. But I don't think you have such evidence because I don't believe it exists.

 

[Montrovant]

I mean it in the general sense that every Native American believed in a Great Spirit. There were no "Atheist" Native Americans. They were very spiritual people, perhaps more so than their European counterparts.

That sounds like individual rather than societal; that you are saying no single Native American ever found him or her self lacking faith in a Great Spirit. I have no idea how you would possibly know that, so perhaps I'm mistaking your intent.

This is the second time I've seen someone try to make an argument that simply "lacking faith" equates to Atheism. You can certainly "lack faith" in something but still believe it exists. Atheists do not believe God exists. Native Americans ALL believed in a Great Spirit. There may have been some who "lacked faith" in that Great Spirit at times, but the belief in the existence of a Great Spirit was universal. And I know this because I've studied Native American history my whole life.

Now... IF you have some evidence of Atheist Native Americans, please present it. I would love to see that. But I don't think you have such evidence because I don't believe it exists.

I'm not saying I have evidence of Native American atheists in the past. What I'm saying is that making a claim that every single Native American believed in a Great Spirit seems unlikely. There are always rebels or outcasts in a society, people who have beliefs counter to the norm. It seems likely that this would be the case with religious or spiritual belief as well.

I'm not denying that the vast majority of Native Americans in the time of European settlement had religious or spiritual beliefs. To say that every single one, without fail, had those beliefs; that not a single person ever deviated from that, ever believed differently, is a pretty extraordinary claim. I think it's also impossible to prove.

I just wonder why you think it reasonable to speak to the beliefs of ever single Native American, why you think they were so unusually uniform in belief.

 

[Boss]

I don't really care what you believe. The concept of Atheism was unknown to them. There was no deviation from culture, if someone ever dared such a thing, they killed them and burned the bodies... hoping that would be enough to please the Great Spirit. They simply didn't tolerate such things.

Now... they weren't "uniform in belief" because the various tribes held different beliefs regarding the Great Spirit. But they ALL believed in the Great Spirit, their lives and cultures revolved around it.

 

[Montrovant]

I don't really care what you believe. The concept of Atheism was unknown to them. There was no deviation from culture, if someone ever dared such a thing, they killed them and burned the bodies... hoping that would be enough to please the Great Spirit. They simply didn't tolerate such things.

Now... they weren't "uniform in belief" because the various tribes held different beliefs regarding the Great Spirit. But they ALL believed in the Great Spirit, their lives and cultures revolved around it.

If they killed people and burned the bodies if they deviated....then some deviated.

But you know what? You think you can speak for the beliefs of every individual Native American who lived at that time, you go right ahead.

 

[emilynghiem]

I mean it in the general sense that every Native American believed in a Great Spirit. There were no "Atheist" Native Americans. They were very spiritual people, perhaps more so than their European counterparts.

That sounds like individual rather than societal; that you are saying no single Native American ever found him or her self lacking faith in a Great Spirit. I have no idea how you would possibly know that, so perhaps I'm mistaking your intent.

This is the second time I've seen someone try to make an argument that simply "lacking faith" equates to Atheism. You can certainly "lack faith" in something but still believe it exists. Atheists do not believe God exists. Native Americans ALL believed in a Great Spirit. There may have been some who "lacked faith" in that Great Spirit at times, but the belief in the existence of a Great Spirit was universal. And I know this because I've studied Native American history my whole life.

Now... IF you have some evidence of Atheist Native Americans, please present it. I would love to see that. But I don't think you have such evidence because I don't believe it exists.

I can see if GreenBean answers email; he is at least part Native American and may not believe in God. I know for sure he does not relate to the Christian God. His rejection of Christianity may be the equivalent to him of rejecting God for practical purposes.

If there are Buddhists who can practice Buddhism, and not truly let go and be as objective and neutral as Buddhism calls for; and there are Christians who can practice Christianity and not yet fully demonstrate forgiveness at the level called for in the Bible,

I have no doubt you can find Native Americans at different stages of awareness.
As GreenBean pointed out, with the well-studied factor of alcoholic and addictive tendencies in Native Americans, presumably tied to the spiritual process of recovering from wounds of genocide passed down through generations, you could argue that some of that addiction is from not being fully at peace with God. So how is that different from anyone else with varying degrees or stages of development in their understanding of their relationship with God?

Do you think you can just draw a line, and say people in this group don't believe and people in this group do? And make up some hard fast rule that magically applies to all those people under one nice neat generalization? I think not. I find people going through their own unique process, and nobody has quite the same way of experiencing or expressing it.

I really think that's what this conversation is about, coming to that realization that we can hardly judge anyone else's experiences or understanding by projecting our own onto them.
If we don't appreciate when we catch others making generalizations that aren't true for us or for all people, we need to learn not to do that to others either, but forgive and correct when this happens. We are all going to learn by comparing our own experiences, but there is no need to judge others when they are going through the same learning curve, trying to figure out how to manage our diverse perspectives. why isn't this embraced as a positive thing to explore and share our differences. why don't we trust the process to bring out the truth from each person, why this need to judge and jump on others when we all have biases?

 

[emilynghiem]

[MENTION=36773]Boss[/MENTION] So if they all believed, you mean there were never any members among them they had to kill and burn?
How can faith be real if it is forced like this? How many might have been nonbelievers but with no freedom to explore or express it?

I don't really care what you believe. The concept of Atheism was unknown to them. There was no deviation from culture, if someone ever dared such a thing, they killed them and burned the bodies... hoping that would be enough to please the Great Spirit. They simply didn't tolerate such things.

Now... they weren't "uniform in belief" because the various tribes held different beliefs regarding the Great Spirit. But they ALL believed in the Great Spirit, their lives and cultures revolved around it.

So if there was no tolerance, only retribution judgment and punishment
how do you know they are truly following the one universal God and
not some local authority to keep their tribal order cohesive?

Someone could still argue that, like Hitler or the Jihadists, these people
are not really worshipping and following God but something negative.

I don't think the issue is whether or not "people believe in God"
because Hitler and the Jihadists also believe they are doing God's will.

I believe the real issue is whether or not people practice
Restorative Justice or Retributive Justice as the side of God's Justice they invoke.

I find THAT distinction hits the target and marks the difference in people.
It's not whether you call or act as a Christian Atheist Buddhist Muslim etc.
The key critical factor
that divides the sheep and the goats
* spiritually it is whether you embrace Restorative Justice and live by this
in all your relations with others
* or you refer to other local authorities to mete out Retributive Justice as your authority

Culturally, of course, there is a physical difference if people relate to
* natural laws, science, secular terms social psychology etc.
* scriptural laws and authority through religious groups
Those are external differences in how we communicate, which languages/laws we use

But for the spirit, if people align in the spirit of Restorative Justice to seek common
truth through mutual forgiveness and correction,
it does not matter so much what physical language/laws they use
because they put the spirit of truth and justice first in embracing their neighbors equally.

If people divide by the spirit of Retributive Justice
then like the Hitler followers, or Jihadists
or Native American or African tribes who went to war wiping out other groups,
what difference does it make if you say you believe in some form of God?

If you are retributive and dividing against another group
that is not universal and not the complete truth of God.

So that is the key factor: do you or do you not treat all other people and groups equally under universal principles, or do you judge reject and seek punishment/retribution
against people or groups that you exclude?

 

[Boss]

I don't really care what you believe. The concept of Atheism was unknown to them. There was no deviation from culture, if someone ever dared such a thing, they killed them and burned the bodies... hoping that would be enough to please the Great Spirit. They simply didn't tolerate such things.

Now... they weren't "uniform in belief" because the various tribes held different beliefs regarding the Great Spirit. But they ALL believed in the Great Spirit, their lives and cultures revolved around it.

If they killed people and burned the bodies if they deviated....then some deviated.

But you know what? You think you can speak for the beliefs of every individual Native American who lived at that time, you go right ahead.

Thanks, I'm glad to have your permission. I'm only bringing the information here, these people spoke for themselves and their stories are archived. The most important thing you need to understand is, they had a completely different kind of culture than you are familiar with. Where we are familiar with a culture that revolves around self and free will, where you can question God or reject God as well as believe in God, the Native Americans had a culture centered on the Great Spirit. The only sense of self came through the Great Spirit.

Now you said (I did not say it) that surely there were some rogue mavericks who bucked authority and refused to believe in this Great Spirit. I replied to that by saying that IF such a thing happened in their culture, they killed the person and burned the body. They probably then killed the mother who spawned such an example and burned her body as well. Now, because I tried to explain how their culture simply did not tolerate or accept such a view, you decided to turn that back around on me and "prove me wrong" in my initial assertion.

What I said still stands. There were no Atheist Native Americans. And emily... we are not talking about present day descendants of Native Americans who don't believe in a Christian God. Once their culture had been disseminated or destroyed, the influence of white man's culture prevailed.

This argument emerged as a result of an Atheist claiming that Native Americans weren't interested in hearing about God and Jesus from the Puritans. The fact of the matter is, the Puritans and Native Americans were able to find mutual respect and understanding with each other and got along rather well for many years. Now I can only imagine the strong spiritual faiths of both groups played an enormous role in that. ...There were also no Atheist Puritans.

 

[Boss]

[MENTION=36773]Boss[/MENTION] So if they all believed, you mean there were never any members among them they had to kill and burn?
How can faith be real if it is forced like this? How many might have been nonbelievers but with no freedom to explore or express it?

You are thinking in terms of your cultural upbringing. What you understand from the culture you've been surrounded by your entire life. It's all you can relate to because it's all you've ever known. You see, we are a culture that holds the individual self as the central importance and everything else revolves around self. This includes questions of spiritual foundation and concepts of "freedom to explore and express," etc. Native Americans had a much different culture, one we are not familiar with at all. In their culture, 'individual self' arises as the result of the Great Spirit, and all revolves around the Great Spirit. For them, this was not a matter of faith or belief, but a truth that was universal.

Now you can imagine that surely there may have been some rebellious individual who somehow came to reject this universal truth, but their culture would have viewed such a thing as a horrible abomination that must be destroyed. It was simply unheard of, unthinkable, and unacceptable in their culture.

 

[thanatos144]

To say religion is wrong because there have been death is hypocritical seeing as secularism through communism and socialism has caused mode deaths in a century then religon ever did

Tapatalk

 

[sealybobo]

To say religion is wrong because there have been death is hypocritical seeing as secularism through communism and socialism has caused mode deaths in a century then religon ever did

Tapatalk

You keep repeating it even though it isn't true. Religious people have murdered way more over the history of man than atheists. You probably don't count all the KKKristians who murdered and enslaved all those blacks for 400 years. You probably don't count all the indians you slaughtered. You probably don't count all the years the Turks (muslims) enslaved the Greeks (christians). And you probably forget that the Germans of WW2 were all Christians.

I hear Christians think it is ok to lie as long as you are lying for Jesus. How convenient.

 

[thanatos144]

To say religion is wrong because there have been death is hypocritical seeing as secularism through communism and socialism has caused mode deaths in a century then religon ever did

Tapatalk

You keep repeating it even though it isn't true. Religious people have murdered way more over the history of man than atheists. You probably don't count all the KKKristians who murdered and enslaved all those blacks for 400 years. You probably don't count all the indians you slaughtered. You probably don't count all the years the Turks (muslims) enslaved the Greeks (christians). And you probably forget that the Germans of WW2 were all Christians.

I hear Christians think it is ok to lie as long as you are lying for Jesus. How convenient.

Hey dummy the kkk are democrat haters who use fear to force voting how they want. You dont get to make shit up just because history shows you secularists as mass murderers

Tapatalk

 

[sealybobo]

Well, let's see... You've failed at science and math already, and now it appears you fail history as well. This explains a lot of what is wrong with you.

Did you never learn about the Puritans and Plymouth Rock? You see, they were the first settlers. They came here to escape religious persecution in England. It wasn't because of their LACK of religion. They got along fine with the Native Americans, in fact, they established the tradition we know today as Thanksgiving. Most of us learned about this in 2nd grade, but apparently you were in the special ed class and missed it.

Yes, the "masses" are mostly religious. You've acknowledged this several times. The vast minority are non-religious idiots like you. In fact, your type represent less than two out of ten people. You are very much a societal outcast and you always will be.

You might want to crack open a history book. The Puritans left England for religious reasons, mainly because they wanted to set up a theocracy under their own ideas and James I told them to get bent. They all but managed to do that when Cromwell cut off Charles I's head in 1649 and the Puritans became politically powerful during the Commonwealth and their policies were so unpopular (e.g. closing the theaters because plays are immoral) that when Charles II restored the crown England rejoiced. Those that went to Holland in the 1610s were told to leave because they were obnoxious assholes who kept harassing the Dutch locals about how immoral and wicked they were because they didn't subscribe to the Puritan ideals of what was proper.

Also, the Pilgrims didn't get along with the locals in the New World as much as you think. The first thing they did after getting off the Mayflower was to plunder some native food stores, something I'm sure the Indians were thrilled about come winter time.

If you're interested, there's a great book on the subject.
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Mayflower-Story-Courage-Community-War/dp/0143111973]Mayflower: A Story of Courage, Community, and War: Nathaniel Philbrick: 9780143111979: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]


EDIT: To clarify that some Puritans left for Holland ad some stayed in England. Those that went to Holland and then the New World obviously weren't in England when Charles I was executed.

Yeah, but I'm not arguing for the virtue of the Puritans or what transpired in England. The conversation was about America and why we came here. It was not because of economic oppression. An argument might be made that was the reason we fought for independence from England, but it had little to do with original settlers.

Yeah, yeah.. Religions have done bad things... seems to be an ongoing theme with Atheists. They've also done a lot of good things, but you ignore that.

I don't care if the ORIGINAL Pilgrims came because of religion, the wave of people that followed came over because of economic oppression. They didn't want to be surfs anymore. And today the rich are turning Americans into the surfs where we have a small rich/ruling class, small merchantile (white collar) and a huge masses called the working poor, working for below poverty wages like so many in America do today. The rich have won. It is up to us to fight back. Don't think class warfare exists? It does, and we're losing.

Last week I finally learned why the blacks are so much more lively in church. They brought that over from Africa. Now does anyone believe the holy ghost spirit is in those fakers? How come they can't teach Catholics how to do that? How come all denominations don't heal and do exorcisms? My god it is so obvious how fake all religion is. But even people who admit that "still believe in something". That's being close minded/brainwashed.

Anyways, I just want to reconfirm that it doesn't matter if a lie produces some good people. It is still a lie. At least present all the facts and then let people decide. Let them know the words in the bible are not from god. They aren't even from the deciples. They were written years later. Let people know as an adult that all the stories were meant to teach right and wrong just like santa, then let people decide. Let people know the history of the bible, don't just tell them to read the bible as fact. That's called brainwashing someone with a lie. Now when I read the bible, I'm clear what I am reading. An old book from some superstitious Priests/Corporations. Lets face it, that is what they are. So if you are so scared of hell you can't even acknowledge that, that's brainwashing.

And clearly religion has done more harm that good. I don't give a shit what good you did this weekend boss. Doesn't count because you aren't a christians or an atheist. You're like Hitler. You believed your own personal bs story. And boy how many people do that, huh? A lot.

Oh yea, and I want to point out how this nation is not a Christian Nation. Most people are only lip service Christians. Proof? Look at all the Christian schools in the country. Very few great people go to those schools or come out of them. The only time in history they ever got hired by our government is when Bush paid back the moral minority for their votes by appointing a bunch of right wing loons from those schools within our government. Oh, and this would be another example of the harm religion has done. These right wing loons pushed the right's agenda despite what public opinion said. Now a lot of these crazy appointees are still in positions of power even though Bush is long gone. Anyways, no one great comes out of those christian schools. Great people come from "liberal" universities. Harvard, Duke, Yale, Princeton, Michigan State, UofM.

How come all the supposed "christians" in America don't go play for these schools? How come these schools aren't among the top school in the nation? Top Ten Christian Colleges by Forbes Ranking

Because American's won't go to them. Tebo didn't even go to one of those schools. Why not? They are so good at recruiting the poor into believing in Christ but they can't get any kids to come play basketball or football for Jesus?

 

[sealybobo]

To say religion is wrong because there have been death is hypocritical seeing as secularism through communism and socialism has caused mode deaths in a century then religon ever did

Tapatalk

You keep repeating it even though it isn't true. Religious people have murdered way more over the history of man than atheists. You probably don't count all the KKKristians who murdered and enslaved all those blacks for 400 years. You probably don't count all the indians you slaughtered. You probably don't count all the years the Turks (muslims) enslaved the Greeks (christians). And you probably forget that the Germans of WW2 were all Christians.

I hear Christians think it is ok to lie as long as you are lying for Jesus. How convenient.

Hey dummy the kkk are democrat haters who use fear to force voting how they want. You dont get to make shit up just because history shows you secularists as mass murderers

Tapatalk

Democrats before the Civil Rights movement are today's Republicans. Google the Southern Strategy and read if you don't already know.

And doesn't matter. Those KKK Democrats or Republicans were all god fearing christians no?

 

[thanatos144]

You keep repeating it even though it isn't true. Religious people have murdered way more over the history of man than atheists. You probably don't count all the KKKristians who murdered and enslaved all those blacks for 400 years. You probably don't count all the indians you slaughtered. You probably don't count all the years the Turks (muslims) enslaved the Greeks (christians). And you probably forget that the Germans of WW2 were all Christians.

I hear Christians think it is ok to lie as long as you are lying for Jesus. How convenient.

Hey dummy the kkk are democrat haters who use fear to force voting how they want. You dont get to make shit up just because history shows you secularists as mass murderers

Tapatalk

Democrats before the Civil Rights movement are today's Republicans. Google the Southern Strategy and read if you don't already know.

And doesn't matter. Those KKK Democrats or Republicans were all god fearing christians no?

Bullshit

Tapatalk

 

[sealybobo]

To say religion is wrong because there have been death is hypocritical seeing as secularism through communism and socialism has caused mode deaths in a century then religon ever did

Tapatalk

Religion is wrong because its a lie. All the death is just one reason why religion needs to go. It makes people stupid. Want proof? Look in the mirror.