Why do the God-haters persist?

[sealybobo]

Hey dummy the kkk are democrat haters who use fear to force voting how they want. You dont get to make shit up just because history shows you secularists as mass murderers

Tapatalk

Democrats before the Civil Rights movement are today's Republicans. Google the Southern Strategy and read if you don't already know.

And doesn't matter. Those KKK Democrats or Republicans were all god fearing christians no?

Bullshit

Tapatalk

Did you read it already?

I love it when a right winger is stumped and wrong and all they can come back with is "bullshit". What a fucking loser you must be.

If that isn't the real history of the US, please explain how the Southern Strategy is "bullshit", even though the Republicans who came up with it have since admitted it?

Maybe you aren't old enough to remember. THEN READ what I posted dumb ass. Also google Lee Atwater. He was Reagan's racist/Carl Rove back in the day. He came up with Willie Horton. And you racist right wing (mostly christians) swallowed it.

 

[Boss]

I don't care if the ORIGINAL Pilgrims came because of religion, the wave of people that followed came over because of economic oppression. They didn't want to be surfs anymore.

Now you are moving goal posts. You originally said that we came here because of economic oppression, now you admit that was false, but LATER that's why people came. Well, some people DID come for that reason, there isn't a ONE reason that everyone came. Some people just came for the fucking adventure of it! My scant few European ancestors came to escape persecution from a tyrant king who thought it a good idea to kill off all the peasants. But the Puritans and the original colonists came to have religious freedom.

And today the rich are turning Americans into the surfs where we have a small rich/ruling class, small merchantile (white collar) and a huge masses called the working poor, working for below poverty wages like so many in America do today. The rich have won. It is up to us to fight back. Don't think class warfare exists? It does, and we're losing.

FUCK YOU! This isn't a goddamn political debate! Stop trying to pretend it is one! What we have today is a fucked up generation (or two) who are completely ignorant of history, as you are aptly demonstrating here. Running around spewing a bunch of 19th century Marxist ideology that has completely failed across Europe and Asia. We don't have "CLASSES" in America! ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL AND ENDOWED WITH RIGHTS BY THEIR CREATOR! It is YOU who has determined we have "classes" of people, and you promote this insanity of liberal Marxist bullshit on that basis because that is the basis on which it originated in the rest of the world where they didn't have free market capitalism and Constitutional liberty. In order to make ANY argument for your failed ideology, you MUST establish classes and instigate class warfare.

Last week I finally learned why the blacks are so much more lively in church. They brought that over from Africa.

No they didn't, and that is a pure racist stereotype. Blacks in Africa were spiritual, as are every society in every corner of the world for as long as human societies have existed. You need to stop "learning" until you comprehend that what you are "learning" is pure racism.

Anyways, I just want to reconfirm that it doesn't matter if a lie produces some good people. It is still a lie. At least present all the facts and then let people decide.

Well, HERE is the fact... No matter where you look or at what time in human history you look, everywhere you find humans there is also human spirituality. Ancient Egyptians were practicing spiritualism, building their pyramids... on the other side of the planet, tens of thousands of miles away, the Mayans were practicing spirituality, building their pyramids... Thousands of miles away from either were the Australian Aborigines, practicing their spirituality. This was before Facebook or televangelists, moron! NON-spirituality IS THE LIE!

 

[sealybobo]

I don't care if the ORIGINAL Pilgrims came because of religion, the wave of people that followed came over because of economic oppression. They didn't want to be surfs anymore.

Now you are moving goal posts. You originally said that we came here because of economic oppression, now you admit that was false, but LATER that's why people came. Well, some people DID come for that reason, there isn't a ONE reason that everyone came. Some people just came for the fucking adventure of it! My scant few European ancestors came to escape persecution from a tyrant king who thought it a good idea to kill off all the peasants. But the Puritans and the original colonists came to have religious freedom.

And today the rich are turning Americans into the surfs where we have a small rich/ruling class, small merchantile (white collar) and a huge masses called the working poor, working for below poverty wages like so many in America do today. The rich have won. It is up to us to fight back. Don't think class warfare exists? It does, and we're losing.

FUCK YOU! This isn't a goddamn political debate! Stop trying to pretend it is one! What we have today is a fucked up generation (or two) who are completely ignorant of history, as you are aptly demonstrating here. Running around spewing a bunch of 19th century Marxist ideology that has completely failed across Europe and Asia. We don't have "CLASSES" in America! ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL AND ENDOWED WITH RIGHTS BY THEIR CREATOR! It is YOU who has determined we have "classes" of people, and you promote this insanity of liberal Marxist bullshit on that basis because that is the basis on which it originated in the rest of the world where they didn't have free market capitalism and Constitutional liberty. In order to make ANY argument for your failed ideology, you MUST establish classes and instigate class warfare.

Last week I finally learned why the blacks are so much more lively in church. They brought that over from Africa.

No they didn't, and that is a pure racist stereotype. Blacks in Africa were spiritual, as are every society in every corner of the world for as long as human societies have existed. You need to stop "learning" until you comprehend that what you are "learning" is pure racism.

Anyways, I just want to reconfirm that it doesn't matter if a lie produces some good people. It is still a lie. At least present all the facts and then let people decide.

Well, HERE is the fact... No matter where you look or at what time in human history you look, everywhere you find humans there is also human spirituality. Ancient Egyptians were practicing spiritualism, building their pyramids... on the other side of the planet, tens of thousands of miles away, the Mayans were practicing spirituality, building their pyramids... Thousands of miles away from either were the Australian Aborigines, practicing their spirituality. This was before Facebook or televangelists, moron! NON-spirituality IS THE LIE!

As soon as I read the word Marxist I stopped reading. Good day sir. Fuck off. Eat a dick. You can't talk to cock suckers like you.

From calling us god haters to marxists, fuck you.

And I agreed with your opening paragraph. I was going to say so until I saw you call us Marxist. Fuck you piece of shit Archie Bunker.

 

[Boss]

Did you read it already?

I love it when a right winger is stumped and wrong and all they can come back with is "bullshit". What a fucking loser you must be.

If that isn't the real history of the US, please explain how the Southern Strategy is "bullshit", even though the Republicans who came up with it have since admitted it?

I'll be GLAD to explain how your interpretation of the "Southern Strategy" is incorrect. It is in reference to Nixon's campaign in 1968. At the time (may still be the case) no candidate had ever won the White House without carrying a Southern state. It was electorally impossible. So their campaign devised a strategy to target Southern states heavily, so as to win at least one or two states. And that is what they did! Now, they didn't run around the South preaching segregation... that was a Democrat-turned-independent, George C. Wallace. So that is who the racist southerners supported, not Nixon. And since the Democrat vote was split between the racist Democrats and the moderates, Nixon prevailed.

Even if you totally disregard Wallace, your argument amounts to... Nixon came down south and won over all the racists who would have otherwise voted for the Democrat! It has been the most insane and absurd claim of ANY that liberals have ever made.... Nixon beat you by stealing all your RACIST support?

 

[Montrovant]

I don't really care what you believe. The concept of Atheism was unknown to them. There was no deviation from culture, if someone ever dared such a thing, they killed them and burned the bodies... hoping that would be enough to please the Great Spirit. They simply didn't tolerate such things.

Now... they weren't "uniform in belief" because the various tribes held different beliefs regarding the Great Spirit. But they ALL believed in the Great Spirit, their lives and cultures revolved around it.

If they killed people and burned the bodies if they deviated....then some deviated.

But you know what? You think you can speak for the beliefs of every individual Native American who lived at that time, you go right ahead.

Thanks, I'm glad to have your permission. I'm only bringing the information here, these people spoke for themselves and their stories are archived. The most important thing you need to understand is, they had a completely different kind of culture than you are familiar with. Where we are familiar with a culture that revolves around self and free will, where you can question God or reject God as well as believe in God, the Native Americans had a culture centered on the Great Spirit. The only sense of self came through the Great Spirit.

Now you said (I did not say it) that surely there were some rogue mavericks who bucked authority and refused to believe in this Great Spirit. I replied to that by saying that IF such a thing happened in their culture, they killed the person and burned the body. They probably then killed the mother who spawned such an example and burned her body as well. Now, because I tried to explain how their culture simply did not tolerate or accept such a view, you decided to turn that back around on me and "prove me wrong" in my initial assertion.

What I said still stands. There were no Atheist Native Americans. And emily... we are not talking about present day descendants of Native Americans who don't believe in a Christian God. Once their culture had been disseminated or destroyed, the influence of white man's culture prevailed.

This argument emerged as a result of an Atheist claiming that Native Americans weren't interested in hearing about God and Jesus from the Puritans. The fact of the matter is, the Puritans and Native Americans were able to find mutual respect and understanding with each other and got along rather well for many years. Now I can only imagine the strong spiritual faiths of both groups played an enormous role in that. ...There were also no Atheist Puritans.

What you said stands as your statement. The truth of it is still very much in question.

Yes, they had a different culture than exists in the US today. Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?). But people have been killed for expressing views they knew were taboo or illegal or unacceptable to the societies they lived in throughout history. More, people can easily feign belief in something. All I am saying is that I think it is likely that at some point, at least one Native American came to the conclusion there was no god(s). It may not have been recorded anywhere, it may not have been a long-lived belief, such a person may not have ever expressed it, it just seems likely to be true.

 

[sealybobo]

Did you read it already?

I love it when a right winger is stumped and wrong and all they can come back with is "bullshit". What a fucking loser you must be.

If that isn't the real history of the US, please explain how the Southern Strategy is "bullshit", even though the Republicans who came up with it have since admitted it?

I'll be GLAD to explain how your interpretation of the "Southern Strategy" is incorrect. It is in reference to Nixon's campaign in 1968. At the time (may still be the case) no candidate had ever won the White House without carrying a Southern state. It was electorally impossible. So their campaign devised a strategy to target Southern states heavily, so as to win at least one or two states. And that is what they did! Now, they didn't run around the South preaching segregation... that was a Democrat-turned-independent, George C. Wallace. So that is who the racist southerners supported, not Nixon. And since the Democrat vote was split between the racist Democrats and the moderates, Nixon prevailed.

Even if you totally disregard Wallace, your argument amounts to... Nixon came down south and won over all the racists who would have otherwise voted for the Democrat! It has been the most insane and absurd claim of ANY that liberals have ever made.... Nixon beat you by stealing all your RACIST support?

The GOP won over whites in the south because blacks were voting democrat. Plain and simple. That is and was the appeal back then and still today. Otherwise, what does the GOP offer poor and middle class southerners? Other than the classic wedge issues racism, god, gays and guns. Financially the hicks down south are the poorest and most uneducated brainwashed imbred Americans. If one goes to Europe the Europeans make fun of them so much. In France they call them Le Goobers. Le Red Necks. Le Hicks.

Anyways, I barely read what you wrote. Might as well stop replying to me. Being a Marxist god hater I don't read garbage from fascist capitalist swine.

 

[Boss]

As soon as I read the word Marxist I stopped reading. Good day sir. Fuck off. Eat a dick. You can't talk to cock suckers like you.

From calling us god haters to marxists, fuck you.

And I agreed with your opening paragraph. I was going to say so until I saw you call us Marxist. Fuck you piece of shit Archie Bunker.

Gay-hating homophobic insults aren't necessary, I am not effected by them.

I honestly don't suspect you are smart enough to realize you're spewing 19th century Marxist claptrap, you are functionally illiterate when it comes to history. But that IS what you are spewing. AND... God-hating is a fundamental part of that ideology. Marx philosophized that religion must be subdued or crushed in order to make the socialist policies work because the people needed to have faith in only the state, not a God. After the first attempts at Marxism failed dismally, they came back and decided that maybe religion was okay to have if the state controlled it. Of course that effort failed as well.

This has never stopped, it just keeps on being "repackaged" and modified or tweaked, and rolled back out again in another incarnation. It has NEVER worked! It NEVER will work! What DOES work is FREEDOM, LIBERTY, CAPITALISM!

 

[sealybobo]

If they killed people and burned the bodies if they deviated....then some deviated.

But you know what? You think you can speak for the beliefs of every individual Native American who lived at that time, you go right ahead.

Thanks, I'm glad to have your permission. I'm only bringing the information here, these people spoke for themselves and their stories are archived. The most important thing you need to understand is, they had a completely different kind of culture than you are familiar with. Where we are familiar with a culture that revolves around self and free will, where you can question God or reject God as well as believe in God, the Native Americans had a culture centered on the Great Spirit. The only sense of self came through the Great Spirit.

Now you said (I did not say it) that surely there were some rogue mavericks who bucked authority and refused to believe in this Great Spirit. I replied to that by saying that IF such a thing happened in their culture, they killed the person and burned the body. They probably then killed the mother who spawned such an example and burned her body as well. Now, because I tried to explain how their culture simply did not tolerate or accept such a view, you decided to turn that back around on me and "prove me wrong" in my initial assertion.

What I said still stands. There were no Atheist Native Americans. And emily... we are not talking about present day descendants of Native Americans who don't believe in a Christian God. Once their culture had been disseminated or destroyed, the influence of white man's culture prevailed.

This argument emerged as a result of an Atheist claiming that Native Americans weren't interested in hearing about God and Jesus from the Puritans. The fact of the matter is, the Puritans and Native Americans were able to find mutual respect and understanding with each other and got along rather well for many years. Now I can only imagine the strong spiritual faiths of both groups played an enormous role in that. ...There were also no Atheist Puritans.

What you said stands as your statement. The truth of it is still very much in question.

Yes, they had a different culture than exists in the US today. Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?). But people have been killed for expressing views they knew were taboo or illegal or unacceptable to the societies they lived in throughout history. More, people can easily feign belief in something. All I am saying is that I think it is likely that at some point, at least one Native American came to the conclusion there was no god(s). It may not have been recorded anywhere, it may not have been a long-lived belief, such a person may not have ever expressed it, it just seems likely to be true.

Yes, there were always atheists. Can you imagine how upset they got when they lost the first debate to the original people who believed in/made up god?

The atheist probably made all good, sane, rational, logical, scientific arguments and the defenders of god told a more fascinating story about heaven and hell and a god who loves us and of course the masses went with the better storyline. Gullible.

 

[sealybobo]

As soon as I read the word Marxist I stopped reading. Good day sir. Fuck off. Eat a dick. You can't talk to cock suckers like you.

From calling us god haters to marxists, fuck you.

And I agreed with your opening paragraph. I was going to say so until I saw you call us Marxist. Fuck you piece of shit Archie Bunker.

Gay-hating homophobic insults aren't necessary, I am not effected by them.

I honestly don't suspect you are smart enough to realize you're spewing 19th century Marxist claptrap, you are functionally illiterate when it comes to history. But that IS what you are spewing. AND... God-hating is a fundamental part of that ideology. Marx philosophized that religion must be subdued or crushed in order to make the socialist policies work because the people needed to have faith in only the state, not a God. After the first attempts at Marxism failed dismally, they came back and decided that maybe religion was okay to have if the state controlled it. Of course that effort failed as well.

This has never stopped, it just keeps on being "repackaged" and modified or tweaked, and rolled back out again in another incarnation. It has NEVER worked! It NEVER will work! What DOES work is FREEDOM, LIBERTY, CAPITALISM!

Then maybe Marxists weren't all bad after all. You guys throw those terms around but do you realize capitalism is just another ism? It isn't purer or better. In fact it is proving to be just as corruptable as all the other isms before it. You seem to be ignorant to this history.

Maybe with god out of the way people will be less stupid. Look at you. You don't even know you are a racist.

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” – Charles Darwin


Because you sound a lot like the racists I talk to on USMB. Just like I sound like the Marxists you talk to.

 

[Boss]

The GOP won over whites in the south because blacks were voting democrat. Plain and simple. That is and was the appeal back then and still today. Otherwise, what does the GOP offer poor and middle class southerners? Other than the classic wedge issues racism, god, gays and guns. Financially the hicks down south are the poorest and most uneducated brainwashed imbred Americans. If one goes to Europe the Europeans make fun of them so much. In France they call them Le Goobers. Le Red Necks. Le Hicks.

Anyways, I barely read what you wrote. Might as well stop replying to me. Being a Marxist god hater I don't read garbage from fascist capitalist swine.

Well okay... so you are admitting that in all the previous elections, those racist whites who voted for Nixon were supporting the Democratic Party, because that is who they previously voted for. And I suppose George "Segregation now, segregation forever" Wallace... well, he just got a few non-racist white fence sitters to vote for him, eh?

Nothing in the 1968 GOP platform was racist in any way. There is no racist speech by Nixon during that campaign. You've presented NO evidence to support your view... other than racist and bigoted stereotypes. Your little prejudiced rant about Southerners reminds me very much of Archie Bunker.

 

[Boss]

Then maybe Marxists weren't all bad after all.

In all it's various forms that have been tried, it accounts for over 150 million dead, and that number is growing. So yeah... kinda not good.

You guys throw those terms around but do you realize capitalism is just another ism? It isn't purer or better. In fact it is proving to be just as corruptable as all the other isms before it. You seem to be ignorant to this history.

Free market American capitalism is responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires than ANY system ever devised by mankind. NOTHING has ever been so successful. There is corruption in all systems, the difference in America is, the corrupted are caught, prosecuted and sent to prison. In your typical Marxist country, the corruption is seldom ever heard about because those who are the most corrupt, control the wealth AND the political power, including the media and justice system.

Maybe with god out of the way people will be less stupid. Look at you. You don't even know you are a racist.

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” – Charles Darwin

Because you sound a lot like the racists I talk to on USMB. Just like I sound like the Marxists you talk to.

...Guess you must be out of ammo?

 

[sealybobo]

As soon as I read the word Marxist I stopped reading. Good day sir. Fuck off. Eat a dick. You can't talk to cock suckers like you.

From calling us god haters to marxists, fuck you.

And I agreed with your opening paragraph. I was going to say so until I saw you call us Marxist. Fuck you piece of shit Archie Bunker.

Gay-hating homophobic insults aren't necessary, I am not effected by them.

I honestly don't suspect you are smart enough to realize you're spewing 19th century Marxist claptrap, you are functionally illiterate when it comes to history. But that IS what you are spewing. AND... God-hating is a fundamental part of that ideology. Marx philosophized that religion must be subdued or crushed in order to make the socialist policies work because the people needed to have faith in only the state, not a God. After the first attempts at Marxism failed dismally, they came back and decided that maybe religion was okay to have if the state controlled it. Of course that effort failed as well.

This has never stopped, it just keeps on being "repackaged" and modified or tweaked, and rolled back out again in another incarnation. It has NEVER worked! It NEVER will work! What DOES work is FREEDOM, LIBERTY, CAPITALISM!

PS. I read through the definition of Marxism. Looks to me like conservatives share a lot of beliefs with old Carl too. Capitalism also follows Ayn Rand. She was an atheist. This is why I find it odd Republicans also consider themselves Christians. That's because they selectively pick and choose what they follow in the bible. They certainly don't follow feed the poor or heal the sick.

 

[sealybobo]

Then maybe Marxists weren't all bad after all.

In all it's various forms that have been tried, it accounts for over 150 million dead, and that number is growing. So yeah... kinda not good.

You guys throw those terms around but do you realize capitalism is just another ism? It isn't purer or better. In fact it is proving to be just as corruptable as all the other isms before it. You seem to be ignorant to this history.

Free market American capitalism is responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires than ANY system ever devised by mankind. NOTHING has ever been so successful. There is corruption in all systems, the difference in America is, the corrupted are caught, prosecuted and sent to prison. In your typical Marxist country, the corruption is seldom ever heard about because those who are the most corrupt, control the wealth AND the political power, including the media and justice system.

Maybe with god out of the way people will be less stupid. Look at you. You don't even know you are a racist.

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” – Charles Darwin

Because you sound a lot like the racists I talk to on USMB. Just like I sound like the Marxists you talk to.

...Guess you must be out of ammo?

No, regulated capitalism with a sprinkle of public schools/teachers, libraries, water works, police, fire fighters and government workers is what made this country great. Labor laws, safety nets, etc. It produced the biggest middle class the world has ever seen. People became millionaires because they invented a product that the masses wanted and the masses had money.

Bushanomics may have produced a lot of millionaires and billionaires but at the cost of the middle class. It made the investor class even richer. They also removed all the safety nets that they had in case they failed. I don't want to get into it. Fact is, Republicanism/Libertarianism will make the middle class disappear. And when we point to Bush as an example they say he was too liberal. Ok.

 

[sealybobo]

Then maybe Marxists weren't all bad after all.

In all it's various forms that have been tried, it accounts for over 150 million dead, and that number is growing. So yeah... kinda not good.

You guys throw those terms around but do you realize capitalism is just another ism? It isn't purer or better. In fact it is proving to be just as corruptable as all the other isms before it. You seem to be ignorant to this history.

Free market American capitalism is responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires than ANY system ever devised by mankind. NOTHING has ever been so successful. There is corruption in all systems, the difference in America is, the corrupted are caught, prosecuted and sent to prison. In your typical Marxist country, the corruption is seldom ever heard about because those who are the most corrupt, control the wealth AND the political power, including the media and justice system.

Maybe with god out of the way people will be less stupid. Look at you. You don't even know you are a racist.

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” – Charles Darwin

Because you sound a lot like the racists I talk to on USMB. Just like I sound like the Marxists you talk to.

...Guess you must be out of ammo?

For you yes I am out of ammo and energy.

One more thing though. Back before Bush 2000, regulated capitalism worked just fine. Then the GOP deregulated capitalism and it blew up. Same thing caused the great depression.

Republicans like our economy going boom and bust every 10 years. Democrats like slow steady growth. The masses don't get fucked every 10 years with slow steady growth. FDR's New Deal lasted 70 years. Wasn't until Reagan and Bush started undoing the new deal that the middle class started disappearing.

 

[Boss]

If they killed people and burned the bodies if they deviated....then some deviated.

But you know what? You think you can speak for the beliefs of every individual Native American who lived at that time, you go right ahead.

Thanks, I'm glad to have your permission. I'm only bringing the information here, these people spoke for themselves and their stories are archived. The most important thing you need to understand is, they had a completely different kind of culture than you are familiar with. Where we are familiar with a culture that revolves around self and free will, where you can question God or reject God as well as believe in God, the Native Americans had a culture centered on the Great Spirit. The only sense of self came through the Great Spirit.

Now you said (I did not say it) that surely there were some rogue mavericks who bucked authority and refused to believe in this Great Spirit. I replied to that by saying that IF such a thing happened in their culture, they killed the person and burned the body. They probably then killed the mother who spawned such an example and burned her body as well. Now, because I tried to explain how their culture simply did not tolerate or accept such a view, you decided to turn that back around on me and "prove me wrong" in my initial assertion.

What I said still stands. There were no Atheist Native Americans. And emily... we are not talking about present day descendants of Native Americans who don't believe in a Christian God. Once their culture had been disseminated or destroyed, the influence of white man's culture prevailed.

This argument emerged as a result of an Atheist claiming that Native Americans weren't interested in hearing about God and Jesus from the Puritans. The fact of the matter is, the Puritans and Native Americans were able to find mutual respect and understanding with each other and got along rather well for many years. Now I can only imagine the strong spiritual faiths of both groups played an enormous role in that. ...There were also no Atheist Puritans.

What you said stands as your statement. The truth of it is still very much in question.

Yes, they had a different culture than exists in the US today. Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?). But people have been killed for expressing views they knew were taboo or illegal or unacceptable to the societies they lived in throughout history. More, people can easily feign belief in something. All I am saying is that I think it is likely that at some point, at least one Native American came to the conclusion there was no god(s). It may not have been recorded anywhere, it may not have been a long-lived belief, such a person may not have ever expressed it, it just seems likely to be true.

I've not backed away from my statement. There were no Atheist Native Americans, there were no Atheist Puritans. You are welcome to prove my statements wrong, the floor is yours. All you're saying is you don't think that is likely, but your opinion on what is likely isn't what is needed here. Examples of Atheist Native Americans and Puritans is what you need to find and present.

Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?)

I don't know that the issue ever came up, I was responding to your claim. Native American culture is well documented, go read some books on it. They didn't have Atheists. Wouldn't have tolerated an atheist viewpoint in their midst. It wasn't their culture. Down to their very NAMES, they were spiritually connected humans. Everything they did and were was centered around the Great Spirit. There was no deviation or alternative viewpoint, there was no place for such a thing in their culture. Had it ever existed, it would have been viewed as something dark and evil that must be vanquished at all costs. They would not have allowed recalcitrant behavior regarding the Great Spirit.

Much the same could be said for the Puritans, except they would have probably burned you at the stake alive instead of killing you first.

 

[sealybobo]

Thanks, I'm glad to have your permission. I'm only bringing the information here, these people spoke for themselves and their stories are archived. The most important thing you need to understand is, they had a completely different kind of culture than you are familiar with. Where we are familiar with a culture that revolves around self and free will, where you can question God or reject God as well as believe in God, the Native Americans had a culture centered on the Great Spirit. The only sense of self came through the Great Spirit.

Now you said (I did not say it) that surely there were some rogue mavericks who bucked authority and refused to believe in this Great Spirit. I replied to that by saying that IF such a thing happened in their culture, they killed the person and burned the body. They probably then killed the mother who spawned such an example and burned her body as well. Now, because I tried to explain how their culture simply did not tolerate or accept such a view, you decided to turn that back around on me and "prove me wrong" in my initial assertion.

What I said still stands. There were no Atheist Native Americans. And emily... we are not talking about present day descendants of Native Americans who don't believe in a Christian God. Once their culture had been disseminated or destroyed, the influence of white man's culture prevailed.

This argument emerged as a result of an Atheist claiming that Native Americans weren't interested in hearing about God and Jesus from the Puritans. The fact of the matter is, the Puritans and Native Americans were able to find mutual respect and understanding with each other and got along rather well for many years. Now I can only imagine the strong spiritual faiths of both groups played an enormous role in that. ...There were also no Atheist Puritans.

What you said stands as your statement. The truth of it is still very much in question.

Yes, they had a different culture than exists in the US today. Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?). But people have been killed for expressing views they knew were taboo or illegal or unacceptable to the societies they lived in throughout history. More, people can easily feign belief in something. All I am saying is that I think it is likely that at some point, at least one Native American came to the conclusion there was no god(s). It may not have been recorded anywhere, it may not have been a long-lived belief, such a person may not have ever expressed it, it just seems likely to be true.

I've not backed away from my statement. There were no Atheist Native Americans, there were no Atheist Puritans. You are welcome to prove my statements wrong, the floor is yours. All you're saying is you don't think that is likely, but your opinion on what is likely isn't what is needed here. Examples of Atheist Native Americans and Puritans is what you need to find and present.

Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?)

I don't know that the issue ever came up, I was responding to your claim. Native American culture is well documented, go read some books on it. They didn't have Atheists. Wouldn't have tolerated an atheist viewpoint in their midst. It wasn't their culture. Down to their very NAMES, they were spiritually connected humans. Everything they did and were was centered around the Great Spirit. There was no deviation or alternative viewpoint, there was no place for such a thing in their culture. Had it ever existed, it would have been viewed as something dark and evil that must be vanquished at all costs. They would not have allowed recalcitrant behavior regarding the Great Spirit.

Much the same could be said for the Puritans, except they would have probably burned you at the stake alive instead of killing you first.

Of course there are atheist indians. There are atheist muslims who pray 5 times a day too because they have to. I myself go to a christian church from time to time. Would anyone believe there was an actual atheist in church? Well there is. And I'm probably not alone. I do know other christians who believe like you. They were born into christianity, don't believe any of the organized religions but still believe in god.

I know its a hard thing to let go of. Here is one reason why.

Why do normal people believe ridiculous things? If Christians used the same critical powers they use to dismiss other religions they would surely end up dismissing the claims of their own religion. But they don’t bc of Cognitive dissonance.

As anyone who works in education can tell you, children are gullible. So we have a situation where, from birth children are fed cultural myths such as Noah’s Flood as factual stories. What is happening is that children are fed improbable stories before they are taught how to rationalize the ridiculous from the scientifically verified. These children are at the most educationally vulnerable point in their lives. And who are the people they trust the most? Their parents, grandparents, preachers. These children have no hope of being able to decipher whether such truth claims are probable or not. They don’t even think to question such claims. Actually I did.

It is only after these cultural memories are embedded that children learn about life, about science, about how to tell a lie from a truth, about the notion that you can’t trust everyone, even a priest.

The second option is also prevalent. Many Christians do learn to be critical and do apply that vetting process to their embedded learning. So they think the bible is just a bunch of allegories. The theist ends up creating wildly ad hoc reasons as to how the evidence can fit in with so-called biblical “facts”.

Obviously, there are difficult questions for the theist who actually discounts such myths as symbolic. It is a potentially slippery slope as to discerning what is myth, what is allegory and what actually happened in the Bible.

 

[Montrovant]

Thanks, I'm glad to have your permission. I'm only bringing the information here, these people spoke for themselves and their stories are archived. The most important thing you need to understand is, they had a completely different kind of culture than you are familiar with. Where we are familiar with a culture that revolves around self and free will, where you can question God or reject God as well as believe in God, the Native Americans had a culture centered on the Great Spirit. The only sense of self came through the Great Spirit.

Now you said (I did not say it) that surely there were some rogue mavericks who bucked authority and refused to believe in this Great Spirit. I replied to that by saying that IF such a thing happened in their culture, they killed the person and burned the body. They probably then killed the mother who spawned such an example and burned her body as well. Now, because I tried to explain how their culture simply did not tolerate or accept such a view, you decided to turn that back around on me and "prove me wrong" in my initial assertion.

What I said still stands. There were no Atheist Native Americans. And emily... we are not talking about present day descendants of Native Americans who don't believe in a Christian God. Once their culture had been disseminated or destroyed, the influence of white man's culture prevailed.

This argument emerged as a result of an Atheist claiming that Native Americans weren't interested in hearing about God and Jesus from the Puritans. The fact of the matter is, the Puritans and Native Americans were able to find mutual respect and understanding with each other and got along rather well for many years. Now I can only imagine the strong spiritual faiths of both groups played an enormous role in that. ...There were also no Atheist Puritans.

What you said stands as your statement. The truth of it is still very much in question.

Yes, they had a different culture than exists in the US today. Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?). But people have been killed for expressing views they knew were taboo or illegal or unacceptable to the societies they lived in throughout history. More, people can easily feign belief in something. All I am saying is that I think it is likely that at some point, at least one Native American came to the conclusion there was no god(s). It may not have been recorded anywhere, it may not have been a long-lived belief, such a person may not have ever expressed it, it just seems likely to be true.

I've not backed away from my statement. There were no Atheist Native Americans, there were no Atheist Puritans. You are welcome to prove my statements wrong, the floor is yours. All you're saying is you don't think that is likely, but your opinion on what is likely isn't what is needed here. Examples of Atheist Native Americans and Puritans is what you need to find and present.

Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?)

I don't know that the issue ever came up, I was responding to your claim. Native American culture is well documented, go read some books on it. They didn't have Atheists. Wouldn't have tolerated an atheist viewpoint in their midst. It wasn't their culture. Down to their very NAMES, they were spiritually connected humans. Everything they did and were was centered around the Great Spirit. There was no deviation or alternative viewpoint, there was no place for such a thing in their culture. Had it ever existed, it would have been viewed as something dark and evil that must be vanquished at all costs. They would not have allowed recalcitrant behavior regarding the Great Spirit.

Much the same could be said for the Puritans, except they would have probably burned you at the stake alive instead of killing you first.

You made a claim that there were no atheist Native Americans. It is an unprovable claim. I disagree with making such a broad, all-encompassing claim.

You say you don't know if the issue of atheism ever came up among Native Americans of the time, yet you claim to know what would have happened to someone expressing atheism. If it never came up, how could you know the reaction to it?

I'm not trying to prove there were atheist Native Americans. I'm trying to say that claiming to know the personal beliefs of every individual person among millions is ridiculous. If you want to say most Native Americans had spiritual belief, fine. If you want to say the vast majority, fine. Nearly all, fine. However, it is impossible for you or anyone else to know whether or not any individual Native American might have lacked belief in god(s). There isn't even a consensus on the total number of people who lived here before European settlement, how could anyone possibly know the beliefs of each individual person? Particularly if those beliefs might have been held secret in fear of the consequences of openly stating them (assuming your claim about killing any atheists are true and true for all Native American societies)?

You also seem to lump all Native Americans together in their religious beliefs. Weren't there some widely divergent beliefs among differing tribes or societies?

I'm not saying atheism was common amongst Native Americans. I'm just saying that based on all available evidence of human behavior, at least some people probably believed differently than the norms of society, and some of those may have been atheists.

 

[sealybobo]

What you said stands as your statement. The truth of it is still very much in question.

Yes, they had a different culture than exists in the US today. Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?). But people have been killed for expressing views they knew were taboo or illegal or unacceptable to the societies they lived in throughout history. More, people can easily feign belief in something. All I am saying is that I think it is likely that at some point, at least one Native American came to the conclusion there was no god(s). It may not have been recorded anywhere, it may not have been a long-lived belief, such a person may not have ever expressed it, it just seems likely to be true.

I've not backed away from my statement. There were no Atheist Native Americans, there were no Atheist Puritans. You are welcome to prove my statements wrong, the floor is yours. All you're saying is you don't think that is likely, but your opinion on what is likely isn't what is needed here. Examples of Atheist Native Americans and Puritans is what you need to find and present.

Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?)

I don't know that the issue ever came up, I was responding to your claim. Native American culture is well documented, go read some books on it. They didn't have Atheists. Wouldn't have tolerated an atheist viewpoint in their midst. It wasn't their culture. Down to their very NAMES, they were spiritually connected humans. Everything they did and were was centered around the Great Spirit. There was no deviation or alternative viewpoint, there was no place for such a thing in their culture. Had it ever existed, it would have been viewed as something dark and evil that must be vanquished at all costs. They would not have allowed recalcitrant behavior regarding the Great Spirit.

Much the same could be said for the Puritans, except they would have probably burned you at the stake alive instead of killing you first.

You made a claim that there were no atheist Native Americans. It is an unprovable claim. I disagree with making such a broad, all-encompassing claim.

You say you don't know if the issue of atheism ever came up among Native Americans of the time, yet you claim to know what would have happened to someone expressing atheism. If it never came up, how could you know the reaction to it?

I'm not trying to prove there were atheist Native Americans. I'm trying to say that claiming to know the personal beliefs of every individual person among millions is ridiculous. If you want to say most Native Americans had spiritual belief, fine. If you want to say the vast majority, fine. Nearly all, fine. However, it is impossible for you or anyone else to know whether or not any individual Native American might have lacked belief in god(s). There isn't even a consensus on the total number of people who lived here before European settlement, how could anyone possibly know the beliefs of each individual person? Particularly if those beliefs might have been held secret in fear of the consequences of openly stating them (assuming your claim about killing any atheists are true and true for all Native American societies)?

You also seem to lump all Native Americans together in their religious beliefs. Weren't there some widely divergent beliefs among differing tribes or societies?

I'm not saying atheism was common amongst Native Americans. I'm just saying that based on all available evidence of human behavior, at least some people probably believed differently than the norms of society, and some of those may have been atheists.

Of course there was. As long as there have been people who claim god exists there have been people who didn't believe.

 

[GISMYS]

I've not backed away from my statement. There were no Atheist Native Americans, there were no Atheist Puritans. You are welcome to prove my statements wrong, the floor is yours. All you're saying is you don't think that is likely, but your opinion on what is likely isn't what is needed here. Examples of Atheist Native Americans and Puritans is what you need to find and present.

Perhaps they would have killed anyone who expressed an atheistic view (did all Native American tribes or societies do this?)

I don't know that the issue ever came up, I was responding to your claim. Native American culture is well documented, go read some books on it. They didn't have Atheists. Wouldn't have tolerated an atheist viewpoint in their midst. It wasn't their culture. Down to their very NAMES, they were spiritually connected humans. Everything they did and were was centered around the Great Spirit. There was no deviation or alternative viewpoint, there was no place for such a thing in their culture. Had it ever existed, it would have been viewed as something dark and evil that must be vanquished at all costs. They would not have allowed recalcitrant behavior regarding the Great Spirit.

Much the same could be said for the Puritans, except they would have probably burned you at the stake alive instead of killing you first.

You made a claim that there were no atheist Native Americans. It is an unprovable claim. I disagree with making such a broad, all-encompassing claim.

You say you don't know if the issue of atheism ever came up among Native Americans of the time, yet you claim to know what would have happened to someone expressing atheism. If it never came up, how could you know the reaction to it?

I'm not trying to prove there were atheist Native Americans. I'm trying to say that claiming to know the personal beliefs of every individual person among millions is ridiculous. If you want to say most Native Americans had spiritual belief, fine. If you want to say the vast majority, fine. Nearly all, fine. However, it is impossible for you or anyone else to know whether or not any individual Native American might have lacked belief in god(s). There isn't even a consensus on the total number of people who lived here before European settlement, how could anyone possibly know the beliefs of each individual person? Particularly if those beliefs might have been held secret in fear of the consequences of openly stating them (assuming your claim about killing any atheists are true and true for all Native American societies)?

You also seem to lump all Native Americans together in their religious beliefs. Weren't there some widely divergent beliefs among differing tribes or societies?

I'm not saying atheism was common amongst Native Americans. I'm just saying that based on all available evidence of human behavior, at least some people probably believed differently than the norms of society, and some of those may have been atheists.

Of course there was. As long as there have been people who claim god exists there have been people who didn't believe.

YES!!! POOR BLINDED FOOLS ARE NOTHING NEW!!!and you???

 

[Boss]

Then maybe Marxists weren't all bad after all.

In all it's various forms that have been tried, it accounts for over 150 million dead, and that number is growing. So yeah... kinda not good.

Free market American capitalism is responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires than ANY system ever devised by mankind. NOTHING has ever been so successful. There is corruption in all systems, the difference in America is, the corrupted are caught, prosecuted and sent to prison. In your typical Marxist country, the corruption is seldom ever heard about because those who are the most corrupt, control the wealth AND the political power, including the media and justice system.

Maybe with god out of the way people will be less stupid. Look at you. You don't even know you are a racist.

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” – Charles Darwin

Because you sound a lot like the racists I talk to on USMB. Just like I sound like the Marxists you talk to.

...Guess you must be out of ammo?

For you yes I am out of ammo and energy.

One more thing though. Back before Bush 2000, regulated capitalism worked just fine. Then the GOP deregulated capitalism and it blew up. Same thing caused the great depression.

Republicans like our economy going boom and bust every 10 years. Democrats like slow steady growth. The masses don't get fucked every 10 years with slow steady growth. FDR's New Deal lasted 70 years. Wasn't until Reagan and Bush started undoing the new deal that the middle class started disappearing.

Uhm... NO. Under Carter, we went through 4 years of Democrats regulating capitalism out the wazoo, mandatory price freezes, caps on trade, etc. Coupled with totally feckless and clueless foreign policy which allowed the Shah of Iran to be overthrown, ushering in the radical Islamic Fundie movement we're still dealing with today, and spiraling oil prices out of control, creating the "Carter Malaise." Reagan came in and DE-regulated capitalism, creating 30 years of peacetime prosperity and a record that still stands to this day for growth. Bush didn't deregulate anything that I am aware of. He grew the size of government more than the previous two Democrat presidents combined. He "compassionately" gave an across-the-board tax cut to every taxpayer, which was essentially economic stupidity. It didn't work to spur record-setting economic growth because it basically cancelled itself out. After 4 years of Bush, 8 years of Clinton, and 8 years of another Bush, they finally dismantled most of what Reagan had done, and the economy tanked. The buffoon in the White House now is more of an economic moron than those three combined. Except, I don't think he gives a shit about the economy, he is on a mission to destroy Capitalism so we can usher in New Age Marxism!

We're still living with FDR New Deal policies, which have us currently at $17.5 trillion in debt. Nothing has been done to make Social Security solvent, in fact, this idiot has pilfered over $800 billion from it to help pay for Obamacare, which is a complete and utter disaster.

But hey... NONE of this matters to liberal democrats because all that matters is "intent!" You intended to help folks... that's all that counts! We should just keep on voting for you regardless of how bad your policies fail because you have the best of intentions!