Why do we have a Progressive Tax System??

[Dorkazoid_Jones]

"A flat tax is an unfair burden on the poor"

There would be a minimum income for taxing so I guess you could say it's not a true flat tax but as close as we could get. Whether the minimum should be 30k or 50k I don't know, but clearly a progressive tax is immoral for the reasons I listed above.

 

[Dorkazoid_Jones]

"I thought we were talking about taxes. Where did I demonize anyone? Are you hearing voices, again?"

TRANSLATION - You can't explain your way out of the immorality of progressive taxes...

 

[Toronado3800]

"the first dollar is worth a lot more than the last."

And a genetic celebrity has a huge advantage on the average person. Why not focus on THAT inequality? I suspect because you are not interested in equality, but only demonizing successful people.

We DO focus on that.

I don't feel demonized at all btw.

If being attractive (lol) has helped me make more money then I am taxed more.

Fair, I dunno. Makes the country go around though especially since big government has to protect the few from the many.

We promote upward mobility
We provide "loopholes" where my extra money investments can be tax deductible if they are determined to be for the general welfare.
We recognize money creates money.
We bail out banks.
We provide bankruptcy even for the rich and stupid.

 

[jillian]

"why do you care? you aren't in the top bracket. "

That's like saying, "Why should you care about rape -- you're not a woman." What's moral is moral. By the way, your response about only caring about where you are in the economic strata is a sort of corollary of Marx's economic determinism. That is, everyone's view is based on where they are in social class. That clearly has turned out to be false as have many of Marx's theories...

that may be one of the most absurd analogies i've ever seen.

as for marx... irrelevant. i'm not a marxist nor have i espoused any marxist ideas.

try again,,,

this time try thinking first.

 

[Toronado3800]

"I thought we were talking about taxes. Where did I demonize anyone? Are you hearing voices, again?"

TRANSLATION - You can't explain your way out of the immorality of progressive taxes...

This is the real world, not the moral world. In the moral world the homeless would get to stay in my house tonight. In the real world they are in the rain or a shelter.

In some regards since the time of Eisenhower if you call an ambulance it shows up w/o asking for your credit card info. I am willing to live with that because I don't wanna see the leppars and cripple in the streets begging for money any more than I do. U.S.A. not Mexico or the Roman Empire where folks were in the streets waiting for Jesus to come by and heal them.

 

[Dorkazoid_Jones]

"that may be one of the most absurd analogies i've ever seen."

Ok, explain why what tax bracket I'm in, has anything to do with what's fair for taxes??? When truth is dependent on other issues, then we start going down the road of relativism which is a road to nowhere...

 

[Dorkazoid_Jones]

"If being attractive (lol) has helped me make more money then I am taxed more."

Fair enough if the good looks translates to a high salary, but what about a beautiful woman (Diva Babe) who is lazy and spoiled and makes very little and is screaming about her fair share of tax money from some unattractive computer babe who made up for her disadvantages by working harder. I think it's absolutely abhorrent that she should someone pay higher tax rates than the Diva Babe.

 

[tooAlive]

If a person is just making enough money to eke out their survival, removing 20 percent of that subsistence would be a much larger burden on them than a 20 percent tax on someone living far, far, far above a subsistence level.

If you don't even have this minimal amount of understanding, then you should not be participating in a tax debate.

I personally favor the Fair Tax. Income tax is a tax on production. We should be taxing consumption.

The Fair Tax provides a monthly prebate which offsets the regressive nature of the tax. That money you are taxed on the subsistence amount of your income is prebated to you.

Those who consume more therefore get taxed more. Those who consume just to survive do not get taxed at all.

Exactly.

And while I'd still like to at least have a flat income tax than a progressive income tax, however regressive it may be deemed, I believe a flat consumption tax is definitely the way to go.

The whole idea of taxing or "penalizing" someone based on their income is ludicrous to me.

Do away with it altogether and set up a flat tax on what you purchase.

I believe the number they came up with was 26%. The bills name is H.R. 25.

 

[OKTexas]

Why not a flat tax so everyone is treated equally? Why does Obama call it "fairness" when he is actually creating inequality in tax rates?? If people are in poverty then obviously they shouldn't be taxed, but other than that, why not everyone pay 20% or 30% or whatever is seen as covering govt costs?

How about studying up before posting? Obama DID NOT create the progressive tax system. The reason for the progressive system? Because the first dollar is worth a lot more than the last.

Funny my bank doesn't think so.

 

[Dorkazoid_Jones]

"I am willing to live with that because I don't wanna see the leppars and cripple in the streets begging for money any more than I do. U.S.A"

Who said people should go hungry?? There would be plenty of money to help the poor. In fact there would probably be more money because we would get rid of ridiculous loopholes which distort the market. A flat tax is MORE moral not less moral because it takes into account cause and effect. Generally, IN GENERAL, people who are more productive make more money. That doesn't mean we kiss our brains goodbye and disregard the needy...

 

[tooAlive]

"I am willing to live with that because I don't wanna see the leppars and cripple in the streets begging for money any more than I do. U.S.A"

Who said people should go hungry?? There would be plenty of money to help the poor. In fact there would probably be more money because we would get rid of ridiculous loopholes which distort the market. A flat tax is MORE moral not less moral because it takes into account cause and effect. Generally, IN GENERAL, people who are more productive make more money. That doesn't mean we kiss our brains goodbye and disregard the needy...

Not to mention a flat tax on consumption would also bring in money obtained illegally via drugs, prostitution, ect..

 

[Dorkazoid_Jones]

'Not to mention a flat tax on consumption would also bring in money obtained illegally via drugs, prostitution, ect.. "

Yeah, I've started to come around to the idea of consumption tax because of capturing illegally obtained money. I think for those who are low income earners, say under 30k, the govt could give them a voucher for the difference. It would get a little tricky and there would be some fraud, but still infinitely better than the boondoogle, immoral tax code we have now.

 

[Toronado3800]

"I am willing to live with that because I don't wanna see the leppars and cripple in the streets begging for money any more than I do. U.S.A"

Who said people should go hungry?? There would be plenty of money to help the poor. In fact there would probably be more money because we would get rid of ridiculous loopholes which distort the market. A flat tax is MORE moral not less moral because it takes into account cause and effect. Generally, IN GENERAL, people who are more productive make more money. That doesn't mean we kiss our brains goodbye and disregard the needy...

Proper loopholes help the country. I believe this. Higher taxes on short term capital gains help the country. I believe that.

Is there a real first or second world country with a flat tax?

How were our poor treated in the early 19th century?

Remember moral does not concern me. I just don't wanna have to hire an armed escort to keep my kid from being kidnapped for ransom on the way to school. In other words give the poor a greater perception of upward mobility and the perception I care.

 

[Toronado3800]

Anyways, with all this Christian based country stuff we have been fed folks associate the New Testament with morality. The whole savior walking around in sandals and rich trying to fit through the eye of the needle thing.

Darned Christian morality sound like socialism.

 

[tooAlive]

'Not to mention a flat tax on consumption would also bring in money obtained illegally via drugs, prostitution, ect.. "

Yeah, I've started to come around to the idea of consumption tax because of capturing illegally obtained money. I think for those who are low income earners, say under 30k, the govt could give them a voucher for the difference. It would get a little tricky and there would be some fraud, but still infinitely better than the boondoogle, immoral tax code we have now.

I believe the taxation of income in itself is immoral.

And as for fraud? How much fraud isn't already happening with these larger-than-life corporations using their power to score loopholes and even evade paying taxes altogether?

That's a much bigger concern to me than a poor family playing the system to not pay taxes on their groceries.

 

[tooAlive]

Anyways, with all this Christian based country stuff we have been fed folks associate the New Testament with morality. The whole savior walking around in sandals and rich trying to fit through the eye of the needle thing.

Darned Christian morality sound like socialism.

If you actually study Jesus' teachings you'd notice they're far from being socialist or communist.

A great example is Matthew 25; verses 14-29 specifically.

 

[Toronado3800]

Anyways, with all this Christian based country stuff we have been fed folks associate the New Testament with morality. The whole savior walking around in sandals and rich trying to fit through the eye of the needle thing.

Darned Christian morality sound like socialism.

If you actually study Jesus' teachings you'd notice they're far from being socialist or communist.

A great example is Matthew 25; verses 14-29 specifically.

I would respectfully remind you the rich man will have a harder time getting into heaven than a camel will have passing through the eye of the needle (know what the needle is?).

So. IMO that is am excerpt reminding folks not to be lazy with their gifts in the middle of a larger text.

Still not a bad point and I do not mean to belittle your opinion. I just disagree.

 

[tooAlive]

Anyways, with all this Christian based country stuff we have been fed folks associate the New Testament with morality. The whole savior walking around in sandals and rich trying to fit through the eye of the needle thing.

Darned Christian morality sound like socialism.

If you actually study Jesus' teachings you'd notice they're far from being socialist or communist.

A great example is Matthew 25; verses 14-29 specifically.

I would respectfully remind you the rich man will have a harder time getting into heaven than a camel will have passing through the eye of the needle (know what the needle is?).

So. IMO that is am excerpt reminding folks not to be lazy with their gifts in the middle of a larger text.

Still not a bad point and I do not mean to belittle your opinion. I just disagree.

That's a very interesting quote, and definitely one that would depict Jesus as a socialist. Here's my interpretation.

I believe Jesus is referring to the love of money keeping people from heaven; not money itself. Here's why:

First of all, Jesus is known for performing miracles. So the act of a rope passing through a needle would certainly be possible in Jesus' realm. Now lets go into the context in which Jesus said that.

A man came to Jesus and asked him what he had to do to get into heaven. Here's the actual text (I'm using the amplified version):

He said to Him, What [d]sort of commandments? [Or, which ones?] And Jesus answered, You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself.
20 The young man said, I have observed all these from my youth; what still do I lack?
21 Jesus answered him, If you would be perfect [that is, [e]have that spiritual maturity which accompanies self-sacrificing character], go and sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven; and come, [f]be My disciple [side with My party and follow Me].

Jesus notices this man is lacking spiritual maturity, and instructs him to get rid of his material possessions in order to reach it.

22 But when the young man heard this, he went away sad (grieved and in much distress), for he had great possessions.

This is a key point here. When given the instruction as to what he is required to do in order to reach the Kingdom of Heaven, the man is second-guessing it! In other words, he has more love for his material things than for the Kingdom of God. Otherwise he'd sell everything in a heartbeat.

Which is when Jesus replies,

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you, it will be difficult for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven.
24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go into the kingdom of heaven.

It's not the money that keeps men from getting into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the love of money. In other words, worshiping money. And like Jesus said, it's very difficult for a man to rid himself of that.

25 When the disciples heard this, they were utterly puzzled (astonished, bewildered), saying, Who then can be saved [[g]from eternal death]?
26 But Jesus looked at them and said, With men this is impossible, but all things are possible with God.

..but all things are possible with God.

Again, this is just my interpretation.

 

[jasonnfree]

Anyways, with all this Christian based country stuff we have been fed folks associate the New Testament with morality. The whole savior walking around in sandals and rich trying to fit through the eye of the needle thing.

Darned Christian morality sound like socialism.

It's socialism for religious organizations. They don't have to pay taxes even though they wield tremendous influence.

 

[jasonnfree]

If you actually study Jesus' teachings you'd notice they're far from being socialist or communist.

A great example is Matthew 25; verses 14-29 specifically.

I would respectfully remind you the rich man will have a harder time getting into heaven than a camel will have passing through the eye of the needle (know what the needle is?).

So. IMO that is am excerpt reminding folks not to be lazy with their gifts in the middle of a larger text.

Still not a bad point and I do not mean to belittle your opinion. I just disagree.

That's a very interesting quote, and definitely one that would depict Jesus as a socialist. Here's my interpretation.

I believe Jesus is referring to the love of money keeping people from heaven; not money itself. Here's why:

First of all, Jesus is known for performing miracles. So the act of a rope passing through a needle would certainly be possible in Jesus' realm. Now lets go into the context in which Jesus said that.

A man came to Jesus and asked him what he had to do to get into heaven. Here's the actual text (I'm using the amplified version):



Jesus notices this man is lacking spiritual maturity, and instructs him to get rid of his material possessions in order to reach it.



This is a key point here. When given the instruction as to what he is required to do in order to reach the Kingdom of Heaven, the man is second-guessing it! In other words, he has more love for his material things than for the Kingdom of God. Otherwise he'd sell everything in a heartbeat.

Which is when Jesus replies,

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you, it will be difficult for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven.
24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go into the kingdom of heaven.

It's not the money that keeps men from getting into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the love of money. In other words, worshiping money. And like Jesus said, it's very difficult for a man to rid himself of that.

25 When the disciples heard this, they were utterly puzzled (astonished, bewildered), saying, Who then can be saved [[g]from eternal death]?
26 But Jesus looked at them and said, With men this is impossible, but all things are possible with God.

..but all things are possible with God.

Again, this is just my interpretation.

But Christ also said to the wealthy young man that wanted to be christ like, give all your possessions to the poor and follow me. Also he said "it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get in to heaven"