Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

[BULLDOG]

Yep, when you only get 250 miles on a good day from an electric fill up, that took 1 hour, sure, the electric car is the way to go. But if you have to go from Florida to Arizona, and it takes you 10 fill ups and it is cold outside and the days are short, you have to fill up a few more times and longer because battteries dont do well in cold weather.

The inception of the idea about a battery charged-electric vehicle is indeed ... compact, light and far more efficient nickel/metal (NiMH) accumulators. ... A brave new world is upon us, with many pioneers leading the way of developments. ...​

Hey, get your jollies off on electric cars all you want, but a few facts are in order:

1. GM isn't phasing out gas cars until 15 years from now, so they say today.
2. A great many people rely on the USED market buying used gasoline cars up to ten years old. That means there will still be a steady demand for used gas cars at least until 2045.
3. In a bad economy, a $4,000 used gas car will be easier to sell than a $60,000 new electric car.
4. As time goes on and more people see the liabilities of an electric car, they will be sticking with or going back to gasoline.
5. As gas cars become scarcer on the market, their value will soar.
6. The electric car is a CONSUMER item and will never replace all forms of transportation.
7. The environmental/climatic benefits of electric cars is being greatly overstated.
8. The minute they develop a practical hydrogen fuel cell, they will drop electric battery cars like hot cakes making them valueless.
9. Electric cars will be chock full of computer restrictions and government regulations limiting the driver and telling on him; as people realize that, they will flock back to gasoline.
10. The electric car will never fully supplant the gas car until they literally outlaw gas cars, close all gas stations and FORCE everyone to electric.

8. There are many more infrastructure hurdles for hydrogen than there are for electric.

9. You seem to think today's gas powered cars aren't chock full of computers already, and any imagined restrictions you fear could be easily implemented with the technology we currently have.

Hydrogen certainly will be very different to refuel and will require very different fueling stations.

But as for computers and restrictions, I think he is referring to things like keeping a log of all the traffic infractions like speeding, what strip club you went to, etc.

If he thinks that is all computers do in cars, he has no idea of what their main purpose is. They regulate all the aspects of combustion to get more power and less harmful exhaust. It used to be hard to find a factory V8 with 300 horsepower. Now it's common to get that from a four cylinder. Computers made that possible.

Not really.
Computers just made it cheaper.
The main way you increase power is by increasing compression ratio, like with a turbo charger, and then the problem becomes avoiding the deadly pre-ignition.
Pre-ignition can easily be prevented by mechanical fuel injection directly into the cylinders, like diesels used to have, and the only problem with that is it is expensive.

But some people are under the false impression computers can actually see and recognize things in real time speeds, and that is false.
Computers are about 100 million times slower at recognizing images than humans.

One small fact worth adding to the equation is that all these methods of increasing the (volumetric) efficiency of the engine also tends to shorten their lives by increasing operational stress. Forcing 300 HP out of a 4 cylinder will roughly cut the life expectancy of that engine down to about maybe a quarter that of a 8 cylinder.

Older engines were worn out at 100,000 miles just a few years ago. Now it's not unusual to go two or three times that range. Your "don't last as long" claim doesn't match reality.

 

[BULLDOG]

bad bad news for all authoritarian gas-stations like KSA, Muscovy, Venezuela , what will happened to them once oil (so no crazy jets full of cash landing on the roof of the Putin´s dacha) becomes what is coal today ?

"
....
We are in the middle of the biggest revolution in motoring since Henry Ford's first production line started turning back in 1913.
And it is likely to happen much more quickly than you imagine.
Many industry observers believe we have already passed the tipping point where sales of electric vehicles (EVs) will very rapidly overwhelm petrol and diesel cars....

Jaguar plans to sell only electric cars from 2025, Volvo from 2030 and last week the British sportscar company Lotus said it would follow suit, selling only electric models from 2028.

General Motors says it will make only electric vehicles by 2035, Ford says all vehicles sold in Europe will be electric by 2030 and VW says 70% of its sales will be electric by 2030."

Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

The BBC's Justin Rowlatt explains why we are accelerating towards an electric car future.

www.bbc.com

If you're a dude and you drive an electric car I would bet you put another guys unit in your mouth.

Just because it doesn't take much to get your crowd to suck a dick doesn't mean everybody would do it so quickly.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

The internal combustion engine is a Rube Goldberg device. It served us well for many years but maybe it’s time for it to go like the vacuum tube and the incandescent light bulb.

The best professional guitar players still use tube amps.

Because they sound better.

A car with an ICE doesn’t necessarily drive better than one with an electric motor.

The EV actually drives better, but it has to lug around 1000 lbs of batteries.

EVs also have to recharge often in cold, rainy weather, take a long time to recharge if you want the batteries to last, the batteries cost over $5K, and most electricity in the world still comes from coal. After about 50 years when oil and gas run out, coal will be about the only source of electricity.

Yeah, in 1976 i heard we had 10 years left of Oil.

 

[Jim H - VA USA]

Yep, when you only get 250 miles on a good day from an electric fill up, that took 1 hour, sure, the electric car is the way to go. But if you have to go from Florida to Arizona, and it takes you 10 fill ups and it is cold outside and the days are short, you have to fill up a few more times and longer because battteries dont do well in cold weather.

The inception of the idea about a battery charged-electric vehicle is indeed ... compact, light and far more efficient nickel/metal (NiMH) accumulators. ... A brave new world is upon us, with many pioneers leading the way of developments. ...​

Hey, get your jollies off on electric cars all you want, but a few facts are in order:

1. GM isn't phasing out gas cars until 15 years from now, so they say today.
2. A great many people rely on the USED market buying used gasoline cars up to ten years old. That means there will still be a steady demand for used gas cars at least until 2045.
3. In a bad economy, a $4,000 used gas car will be easier to sell than a $60,000 new electric car.
4. As time goes on and more people see the liabilities of an electric car, they will be sticking with or going back to gasoline.
5. As gas cars become scarcer on the market, their value will soar.
6. The electric car is a CONSUMER item and will never replace all forms of transportation.
7. The environmental/climatic benefits of electric cars is being greatly overstated.
8. The minute they develop a practical hydrogen fuel cell, they will drop electric battery cars like hot cakes making them valueless.
9. Electric cars will be chock full of computer restrictions and government regulations limiting the driver and telling on him; as people realize that, they will flock back to gasoline.
10. The electric car will never fully supplant the gas car until they literally outlaw gas cars, close all gas stations and FORCE everyone to electric.

8. There are many more infrastructure hurdles for hydrogen than there are for electric.

9. You seem to think today's gas powered cars aren't chock full of computers already, and any imagined restrictions you fear could be easily implemented with the technology we currently have.

Hydrogen certainly will be very different to refuel and will require very different fueling stations.

But as for computers and restrictions, I think he is referring to things like keeping a log of all the traffic infractions like speeding, what strip club you went to, etc.

If he thinks that is all computers do in cars, he has no idea of what their main purpose is. They regulate all the aspects of combustion to get more power and less harmful exhaust. It used to be hard to find a factory V8 with 300 horsepower. Now it's common to get that from a four cylinder. Computers made that possible.

Not really.
Computers just made it cheaper.
The main way you increase power is by increasing compression ratio, like with a turbo charger, and then the problem becomes avoiding the deadly pre-ignition.
Pre-ignition can easily be prevented by mechanical fuel injection directly into the cylinders, like diesels used to have, and the only problem with that is it is expensive.

But some people are under the false impression computers can actually see and recognize things in real time speeds, and that is false.
Computers are about 100 million times slower at recognizing images than humans.

One small fact worth adding to the equation is that all these methods of increasing the (volumetric) efficiency of the engine also tends to shorten their lives by increasing operational stress. Forcing 300 HP out of a 4 cylinder will roughly cut the life expectancy of that engine down to about maybe a quarter that of a 8 cylinder.

Older engines were worn out at 100,000 miles just a few years ago. Now it's not unusual to go two or three times that range. Your "don't last as long" claim doesn't match reality.

Some of the vehicles we purchased had the choice of a 4cyl turbo, or V6. We choose the V6, as the turbo 4-cyl with nearly the same power will not last as long since you are pushing more power out of an underpowered engine.

That's all toobfreak is saying. He's right. Engine lifetime is strongly proportional to total revolutions. A four-cylinder has 50% more revolutions per mile than a V6.

Engine rpm for a given vehicle speed is also 50% higher. That results in higher operating temperatures, stresses, and wear.

 

[krichton]

bad bad news for all authoritarian gas-stations like KSA, Muscovy, Venezuela , what will happened to them once oil (so no crazy jets full of cash landing on the roof of the Putin´s dacha) becomes what is coal today ?

"
....
We are in the middle of the biggest revolution in motoring since Henry Ford's first production line started turning back in 1913.
And it is likely to happen much more quickly than you imagine.
Many industry observers believe we have already passed the tipping point where sales of electric vehicles (EVs) will very rapidly overwhelm petrol and diesel cars....

Jaguar plans to sell only electric cars from 2025, Volvo from 2030 and last week the British sportscar company Lotus said it would follow suit, selling only electric models from 2028.

General Motors says it will make only electric vehicles by 2035, Ford says all vehicles sold in Europe will be electric by 2030 and VW says 70% of its sales will be electric by 2030."

Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

The BBC's Justin Rowlatt explains why we are accelerating towards an electric car future.

www.bbc.com

Yep, when you only get 250 miles on a good day from an electric fill up, that took 1 hour, sure, the electric car is the way to go. But if you have to go from Florida to Arizona, and it takes you 10 fill ups and it is cold outside and the days are short, you have to fill up a few more times and longer because battteries dont do well in cold weather. And all those coal fired power plants need to be churning out the CO2 for the demand of all that electricity during that time because what happened in Texas can happen any where else.

Valentine's Week Winter Outbreak 2021: Snow, Ice, & Record Cold

Current EVs are not for long trips, but it can easily be done and has. With that said, how many ppl are driving from Florida to Arizona? That's a trip you make once in a lifetime, if ever. You make it sound like a daily commute. You don't completely drain the battery and sit 45 minutes at every charging station unless you're an idiot. The last 15-20% of charge is probably what takes the longest, you can basically just top off at 80% and be on your way in 25 minutes if for some reason you need to go from 0-80%. The onboard computer tells you exactly how much charge you have left, what it will take for you to get to the next charging station and how long each time it will take to charge.

Also, the newest Tesla roadster is said to have a maximum range of 620 miles per charge, which exceeds the longest range gas powered vehicle. I can guarantee this number will become the norm in cheaper cars within 5 years. If Tesla has it's away it'll happen a lot sooner.

Evs will also greatly benefit Europeans who want a car because gas is insanely expensive in Europe.

 

[bripat9643]

The internal combustion engine is a Rube Goldberg device. It served us well for many years but maybe it’s time for it to go like the vacuum tube and the incandescent light bulb.

The best professional guitar players still use tube amps.

Because they sound better.

A car with an ICE doesn’t necessarily drive better than one with an electric motor.

The EV actually drives better, but it has to lug around 1000 lbs of batteries.

EVs also have to recharge often in cold, rainy weather, take a long time to recharge if you want the batteries to last, the batteries cost over $5K, and most electricity in the world still comes from coal. After about 50 years when oil and gas run out, coal will be about the only source of electricity.

I think now the batteries are heated when it's cold, so cold weather isn't as big of a problem. Norway is one of the biggest purchasers of EVs per capita in Europe.

 

[BULLDOG]

Yep, when you only get 250 miles on a good day from an electric fill up, that took 1 hour, sure, the electric car is the way to go. But if you have to go from Florida to Arizona, and it takes you 10 fill ups and it is cold outside and the days are short, you have to fill up a few more times and longer because battteries dont do well in cold weather.

The inception of the idea about a battery charged-electric vehicle is indeed ... compact, light and far more efficient nickel/metal (NiMH) accumulators. ... A brave new world is upon us, with many pioneers leading the way of developments. ...​

Hey, get your jollies off on electric cars all you want, but a few facts are in order:

1. GM isn't phasing out gas cars until 15 years from now, so they say today.
2. A great many people rely on the USED market buying used gasoline cars up to ten years old. That means there will still be a steady demand for used gas cars at least until 2045.
3. In a bad economy, a $4,000 used gas car will be easier to sell than a $60,000 new electric car.
4. As time goes on and more people see the liabilities of an electric car, they will be sticking with or going back to gasoline.
5. As gas cars become scarcer on the market, their value will soar.
6. The electric car is a CONSUMER item and will never replace all forms of transportation.
7. The environmental/climatic benefits of electric cars is being greatly overstated.
8. The minute they develop a practical hydrogen fuel cell, they will drop electric battery cars like hot cakes making them valueless.
9. Electric cars will be chock full of computer restrictions and government regulations limiting the driver and telling on him; as people realize that, they will flock back to gasoline.
10. The electric car will never fully supplant the gas car until they literally outlaw gas cars, close all gas stations and FORCE everyone to electric.

8. There are many more infrastructure hurdles for hydrogen than there are for electric.

9. You seem to think today's gas powered cars aren't chock full of computers already, and any imagined restrictions you fear could be easily implemented with the technology we currently have.

Hydrogen certainly will be very different to refuel and will require very different fueling stations.

But as for computers and restrictions, I think he is referring to things like keeping a log of all the traffic infractions like speeding, what strip club you went to, etc.

If he thinks that is all computers do in cars, he has no idea of what their main purpose is. They regulate all the aspects of combustion to get more power and less harmful exhaust. It used to be hard to find a factory V8 with 300 horsepower. Now it's common to get that from a four cylinder. Computers made that possible.

Not really.
Computers just made it cheaper.
The main way you increase power is by increasing compression ratio, like with a turbo charger, and then the problem becomes avoiding the deadly pre-ignition.
Pre-ignition can easily be prevented by mechanical fuel injection directly into the cylinders, like diesels used to have, and the only problem with that is it is expensive.

But some people are under the false impression computers can actually see and recognize things in real time speeds, and that is false.
Computers are about 100 million times slower at recognizing images than humans.

One small fact worth adding to the equation is that all these methods of increasing the (volumetric) efficiency of the engine also tends to shorten their lives by increasing operational stress. Forcing 300 HP out of a 4 cylinder will roughly cut the life expectancy of that engine down to about maybe a quarter that of a 8 cylinder.

Older engines were worn out at 100,000 miles just a few years ago. Now it's not unusual to go two or three times that range. Your "don't last as long" claim doesn't match reality.

Some of the vehicles we purchased had the choice of a 4cyl turbo, or V6. We choose the V6, as the turbo 4-cyl with nearly the same power will not last as long since you are pushing more power out of an underpowered engine.

That's all toobfreak is saying. He's right. Engine lifetime is strongly proportional to total revolutions. A four-cylinder has 50% more revolutions per mile than a V6.

Engine rpm for a given vehicle speed is also 50% higher. That results in higher operating temperatures, stresses, and wear.

If the power was near the same, the gear ratios would be near the same. Your numbers are an exaggerated lie. Of course, you could identify the brand and engine sizes so the actual numbers could be checked, and prove me wrong. I'll bet a dollar you won't.

 

[westwall]

You mean like we STILL DO with oil companies.

I would add many of those oil companies don't pay a penny in federal income taxes.

You should absolutely LOVE oil companies, since they are providing the fuel to generate electricity for EVs. Evs aren't going anywhere without the oil companies.

Fossil fuels don't generate electricity in my state.

We use water, wind, solar and a small nuclear facility.

We started shutting down our last coal fired plant in 2005. I'm sure it's closed by now.

We started building one of the nation's largest wind farms in the 90s.

The result?

We generate more electricity than we use so we sell the excess to other states for a profit. If you live in one of those states, you're welcome for the cheap and clean energy.

We also have the second lowest electric rates in the country.

So my state doesn't need or want fossil fuels to generate electricity.

Untrue anywhere in the US.
Coal is the #1 electricity producer in ALL US states and most of the world.
Many states just do not know how their electricity is produced because it is part of an out of state grid.
It is never going to be possible to use only renewable resources any place in the world except on ocean shores, near high thermal sources, or where one does not mind killing fish.

So, if renewable sources can't supply all our needs, then we will use coal, or gas, or dried cow dung if we have to. We will maintain a reliable energy source of one kind or another. It will just be better for us if we can do that with renewable sources sooner. Nobody wants or expects a complete conversion to renewables before that is possible. Quit whining.

Going to electricity before electricity is renewable, only makes emissions much worse.
Nor does electricity allow for any reasonable totally renewable result eventually either, while bio fuel does.
So there is no point in going electrical.
It is inefficient.
Can you imagine trying to do ships, planes, or even EV trucks?
The would have no capacity to carry anything.
Batteries are way too heavy.

We already have diesel/electric ships and trucks, Electric power has already been proven to be more efficient than direct power by internal combustion. Why are you so afraid of progress? Do you think we will completely convert to battery powered electric before we have technology to match or better internal combustion? That's just silly.

Because what you just claimed isn't true. Electric power is more efficient in very limited circumstances. Over short distances electric powered vehicles are superior. There is no doubt of that. However, once you get beyond a mile the advantage swings to the internal combustion engine. Currently a Formula One race car can travel 190 miles, at full performance, on a single tank of regular gasoline. Formula E, can only manage 55 miles. And, they have to use TWO cars to do it.

So, calculate out the energy density involved, and get back to us with your claim of EV superiority.

 

[HappyJoy]

bad bad news for all authoritarian gas-stations like KSA, Muscovy, Venezuela , what will happened to them once oil (so no crazy jets full of cash landing on the roof of the Putin´s dacha) becomes what is coal today ?

"
....
We are in the middle of the biggest revolution in motoring since Henry Ford's first production line started turning back in 1913.
And it is likely to happen much more quickly than you imagine.
Many industry observers believe we have already passed the tipping point where sales of electric vehicles (EVs) will very rapidly overwhelm petrol and diesel cars....

Jaguar plans to sell only electric cars from 2025, Volvo from 2030 and last week the British sportscar company Lotus said it would follow suit, selling only electric models from 2028.

General Motors says it will make only electric vehicles by 2035, Ford says all vehicles sold in Europe will be electric by 2030 and VW says 70% of its sales will be electric by 2030."

Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

The BBC's Justin Rowlatt explains why we are accelerating towards an electric car future.

www.bbc.com

Electric cars aren't eco-friendly contrary to they'd have you believe.

still they will bring oil prices back to normality, which means death of moscow empire, KSA (wahhabism) etc

Even now electric cars are clearner than the ICE. It may take a couple of years during the EVs life cycle to catch up but in the end they are better for the environment. And that of course will change as our power grid is filled with even more diverse green energy.

Benefits of electric cars on the environment

All you need to know about electric cars, also known as EVs, and their effect on our environment. Find out if electric or petrol cars are a better choice for our planet.

www.edfenergy.com

I wouldn't necessarily say to go out and buy and EV to save the planet, wait until you need a car and then look for used or new EVs.

EV's are only cleaner if you ignore the environmental damage engendered with the mining of the lithium, the transport of the lithium across the oceans repeatedly, the fossil fuels used to obtain the lithium and transport it. The fossil fuels expended in processing it, and, of course, the environmental horror story waiting to be told when the tens of thousands of highly toxic, worn out batteries are needing to be dealt with.

Nope
During the entire lifespan of an EV to include the battery compnents they are still more environmentally friendly. They start out of the gate at a deficit however after a few years of use surpass ICEs.

Facts say otherwise. Your opinion, and those of the propagandists who feed you your BS are immaterial. Facts don't lie, and the facts show your claims to be horse poo.

That was very convincing.

Just one of hundreds of reports and papers that address your lies.

Developing countries pay environmental cost of electric car batteries​

22 July 2020

Growth in electric car sales is great news for the fight against climate change, but the mining of the minerals used in their batteries poses serious risks for the environment.​

Developing countries pay environmental cost of electric car batteries

Global consumers are warming up to electric cars, whose sales are expected to jump from 3 million vehicles in 2017 to 23 million in 2030, according to the International Energy Agency. Similar growth is expected for rechargeable batteries, with the market for cathode – the positive electrode of...

unctad.org

Doesnt address the point I made.

Anyway climate change endangers us all.

 

[bripat9643]

bad bad news for all authoritarian gas-stations like KSA, Muscovy, Venezuela , what will happened to them once oil (so no crazy jets full of cash landing on the roof of the Putin´s dacha) becomes what is coal today ?

"
....
We are in the middle of the biggest revolution in motoring since Henry Ford's first production line started turning back in 1913.
And it is likely to happen much more quickly than you imagine.
Many industry observers believe we have already passed the tipping point where sales of electric vehicles (EVs) will very rapidly overwhelm petrol and diesel cars....

Jaguar plans to sell only electric cars from 2025, Volvo from 2030 and last week the British sportscar company Lotus said it would follow suit, selling only electric models from 2028.

General Motors says it will make only electric vehicles by 2035, Ford says all vehicles sold in Europe will be electric by 2030 and VW says 70% of its sales will be electric by 2030."

Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

The BBC's Justin Rowlatt explains why we are accelerating towards an electric car future.

www.bbc.com

Yep, when you only get 250 miles on a good day from an electric fill up, that took 1 hour, sure, the electric car is the way to go. But if you have to go from Florida to Arizona, and it takes you 10 fill ups and it is cold outside and the days are short, you have to fill up a few more times and longer because battteries dont do well in cold weather. And all those coal fired power plants need to be churning out the CO2 for the demand of all that electricity during that time because what happened in Texas can happen any where else.

Valentine's Week Winter Outbreak 2021: Snow, Ice, & Record Cold

Current EVs are not for long trips, but it can easily be done and has. With that said, how many ppl are driving from Florida to Arizona? That's a trip you make once in a lifetime, if ever. You make it sound like a daily commute. You don't completely drain the battery and sit 45 minutes at every charging station unless you're an idiot. The last 15-20% of charge is probably what takes the longest, you can basically just top off at 80% and be on your way in 25 minutes if for some reason you need to go from 0-80%. The onboard computer tells you exactly how much charge you have left, what it will take for you to get to the next charging station and how long each time it will take to charge.

Also, the newest Tesla roadster is said to have a maximum range of 620 miles per charge, which exceeds the longest range gas powered vehicle. I can guarantee this number will become the norm in cheaper cars within 5 years. If Tesla has it's away it'll happen a lot sooner.

Evs will also greatly benefit Europeans who want a car because gas is insanely expensive in Europe.

I've seen numerous videos on youTube showing people making trips of over 1000 miles in a Tesla

 

[bripat9643]

bad bad news for all authoritarian gas-stations like KSA, Muscovy, Venezuela , what will happened to them once oil (so no crazy jets full of cash landing on the roof of the Putin´s dacha) becomes what is coal today ?

"
....
We are in the middle of the biggest revolution in motoring since Henry Ford's first production line started turning back in 1913.
And it is likely to happen much more quickly than you imagine.
Many industry observers believe we have already passed the tipping point where sales of electric vehicles (EVs) will very rapidly overwhelm petrol and diesel cars....

Jaguar plans to sell only electric cars from 2025, Volvo from 2030 and last week the British sportscar company Lotus said it would follow suit, selling only electric models from 2028.

General Motors says it will make only electric vehicles by 2035, Ford says all vehicles sold in Europe will be electric by 2030 and VW says 70% of its sales will be electric by 2030."

Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

The BBC's Justin Rowlatt explains why we are accelerating towards an electric car future.

www.bbc.com

Electric cars aren't eco-friendly contrary to they'd have you believe.

still they will bring oil prices back to normality, which means death of moscow empire, KSA (wahhabism) etc

Even now electric cars are clearner than the ICE. It may take a couple of years during the EVs life cycle to catch up but in the end they are better for the environment. And that of course will change as our power grid is filled with even more diverse green energy.

Benefits of electric cars on the environment

All you need to know about electric cars, also known as EVs, and their effect on our environment. Find out if electric or petrol cars are a better choice for our planet.

www.edfenergy.com

I wouldn't necessarily say to go out and buy and EV to save the planet, wait until you need a car and then look for used or new EVs.

EV's are only cleaner if you ignore the environmental damage engendered with the mining of the lithium, the transport of the lithium across the oceans repeatedly, the fossil fuels used to obtain the lithium and transport it. The fossil fuels expended in processing it, and, of course, the environmental horror story waiting to be told when the tens of thousands of highly toxic, worn out batteries are needing to be dealt with.

Nope
During the entire lifespan of an EV to include the battery compnents they are still more environmentally friendly. They start out of the gate at a deficit however after a few years of use surpass ICEs.

Facts say otherwise. Your opinion, and those of the propagandists who feed you your BS are immaterial. Facts don't lie, and the facts show your claims to be horse poo.

That was very convincing.

Just one of hundreds of reports and papers that address your lies.

Developing countries pay environmental cost of electric car batteries​

22 July 2020

Growth in electric car sales is great news for the fight against climate change, but the mining of the minerals used in their batteries poses serious risks for the environment.​

Developing countries pay environmental cost of electric car batteries

Global consumers are warming up to electric cars, whose sales are expected to jump from 3 million vehicles in 2017 to 23 million in 2030, according to the International Energy Agency. Similar growth is expected for rechargeable batteries, with the market for cathode – the positive electrode of...

unctad.org

Doesnt address the point I made.

Anyway climate change endangers us all.

AGW is a myth.

 

[Ridgerunner]

There may be a day when electric cars are good technology but it isn't now.

Lithium Ion batteries are terrible technology. They are heavy, expensive, can't hold much of a charge, don't have a long life and are ecological disasters to produce and dispose.

I suspect that most people that buy a LI vehicle now will regret doing it.

If they can work out the engineering problems Solid State batteries will be much better.

Agree Flash

Batteries my friend, batteries

Agree rightwinger , it's a shame a good batteries haven't been made yet...

 

[BULLDOG]

You mean like we STILL DO with oil companies.

I would add many of those oil companies don't pay a penny in federal income taxes.

You should absolutely LOVE oil companies, since they are providing the fuel to generate electricity for EVs. Evs aren't going anywhere without the oil companies.

Fossil fuels don't generate electricity in my state.

We use water, wind, solar and a small nuclear facility.

We started shutting down our last coal fired plant in 2005. I'm sure it's closed by now.

We started building one of the nation's largest wind farms in the 90s.

The result?

We generate more electricity than we use so we sell the excess to other states for a profit. If you live in one of those states, you're welcome for the cheap and clean energy.

We also have the second lowest electric rates in the country.

So my state doesn't need or want fossil fuels to generate electricity.

Untrue anywhere in the US.
Coal is the #1 electricity producer in ALL US states and most of the world.
Many states just do not know how their electricity is produced because it is part of an out of state grid.
It is never going to be possible to use only renewable resources any place in the world except on ocean shores, near high thermal sources, or where one does not mind killing fish.

So, if renewable sources can't supply all our needs, then we will use coal, or gas, or dried cow dung if we have to. We will maintain a reliable energy source of one kind or another. It will just be better for us if we can do that with renewable sources sooner. Nobody wants or expects a complete conversion to renewables before that is possible. Quit whining.

Going to electricity before electricity is renewable, only makes emissions much worse.
Nor does electricity allow for any reasonable totally renewable result eventually either, while bio fuel does.
So there is no point in going electrical.
It is inefficient.
Can you imagine trying to do ships, planes, or even EV trucks?
The would have no capacity to carry anything.
Batteries are way too heavy.

We already have diesel/electric ships and trucks, Electric power has already been proven to be more efficient than direct power by internal combustion. Why are you so afraid of progress? Do you think we will completely convert to battery powered electric before we have technology to match or better internal combustion? That's just silly.

Because what you just claimed isn't true. Electric power is more efficient in very limited circumstances. Over short distances electric powered vehicles are superior. There is no doubt of that. However, once you get beyond a mile the advantage swings to the internal combustion engine. Currently a Formula One race car can travel 190 miles, at full performance, on a single tank of regular gasoline. Formula E, can only manage 55 miles. And, they have to use TWO cars to do it.

So, calculate out the energy density involved, and get back to us with your claim of EV superiority.

If you want to discuss energy density, you should consider diesel electric freight trains. Those require serious energy density. Only a fool would think our currnt battery technology is as far as we will go with electric vehicles, and only an idiot would think we will switch to a new technology before it is able to meet the demand. Relax. Quit whining. It will be all right. We won't lose our means of transportation like you seem to fear.

 

[Rigby5]

bad bad news for all authoritarian gas-stations like KSA, Muscovy, Venezuela , what will happened to them once oil (so no crazy jets full of cash landing on the roof of the Putin´s dacha) becomes what is coal today ?

"
....
We are in the middle of the biggest revolution in motoring since Henry Ford's first production line started turning back in 1913.
And it is likely to happen much more quickly than you imagine.
Many industry observers believe we have already passed the tipping point where sales of electric vehicles (EVs) will very rapidly overwhelm petrol and diesel cars....

Jaguar plans to sell only electric cars from 2025, Volvo from 2030 and last week the British sportscar company Lotus said it would follow suit, selling only electric models from 2028.

General Motors says it will make only electric vehicles by 2035, Ford says all vehicles sold in Europe will be electric by 2030 and VW says 70% of its sales will be electric by 2030."

Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

The BBC's Justin Rowlatt explains why we are accelerating towards an electric car future.

www.bbc.com

Electric cars aren't eco-friendly contrary to they'd have you believe.

still they will bring oil prices back to normality, which means death of moscow empire, KSA (wahhabism) etc

Even now electric cars are clearner than the ICE. It may take a couple of years during the EVs life cycle to catch up but in the end they are better for the environment. And that of course will change as our power grid is filled with even more diverse green energy.

Benefits of electric cars on the environment

All you need to know about electric cars, also known as EVs, and their effect on our environment. Find out if electric or petrol cars are a better choice for our planet.

www.edfenergy.com

No electric cars are not cleaner.
The main source of electricity is still coal, and will become even more of the main source in 50 years, when the gas and oil runs out.
The power grid is not green energy.

Coal burning power plants are cleaner than individual ICEs which are extremely inefficient. Didn't you know this? Most of the power they create never sees the pavement.

Here is an article about electric buses and even though they are not charged on clean power grids they are cleaner than their gas and diesel counterparts.

Study: Electric Buses Already Emit Less Carbon Than Diesel Buses, in Any State

And their climate impact will decrease as the grid gets cleaner.

www.greentechmedia.com

Wrong.
We have only temporarily shifted to natural gas to produce electricity.
When that runs out in 50 years, then we will have to go back to coal, because we have 10 times more coal than natural gas.
And then the emissions of electricity doubles again, becoming greater than diesel.
And it is easy for diesel to beat EV if they use bio fuel because bio fuel absorbs more carbon than produced.
Nothing can ever beat bio fuel.
That is impossible.

When that runs out when? It's like you're saying in a half century nothing will change with our energy make up. When has that ever happened in our country's history?

I'm cool with bio fuels too when/if they come on board.

Half a century is not at all far away and would have to be started now.
There is no way to so it with solar or wind, so bio fuel is the only way, and we are going to have to find sources of water now, if we want bio fuel, because without fossil fuel for fertilizer, human starvation could be come a problem.
So coal is the only easy answer, so far.
Bio fuel is possible, but the EV thing is just detracting from real alternatives like bio fuel.
EVs solve nothing.
Its just a shell game where you don't see the pollution because you move it out of state.
EVs are incredibly inefficient.
Total efficiency of EVs is about 7%, compared to 45% for ICEs.

Do everyone a favor, don't accept money for fortune telling, you're not good at it.

Nothing to do with fortune telling.
I just have a degree in physics, and have done engineering all my life.

Doubtful, but I don't really care anyway.

Believe me, you are being conned by a shell game.
EVs are vastly less efficient and dirty then ICEs.
In fact, the best ICEs are the VW TDIs, which they prosecuted because they were getting 56 mpg, when they were supposed to only be betting 34 mpg.
The VW TDI were putting out less than a forth the carbon of other cars, so then claimed it was NOx they were violating.
But the reality is that unlike CO2 that can last forever, NOx breaks down naturally in hours.
NOx is just heated air.
You turn on an electric stove, you get NOx if you get the coil element hot enough.

How much power from the engine(s) of an EV reach the wheels as compared to an ICE? If you have a degree in physics this should be easy.

Essentially all the power from the engine get to the wheels equally with ICE or EV.
That is because things like UJoints have very little friction, and EVs have an equal amount of UJoints in order to reduce unsprung weight. If you put the electric motor out at the wheel, as some do, the ride is terrible. Too much weight hitting bumps causes the whole car to jolt. Both also should have transmission, and that has little friction either. The one thing ICE has that EV does not is differential. But that is very slow and consumes very little energy. The main difference where an EV would start to shine is if you need All Wheel Drive. Then EV could save about 400 lbs.

 

[Rigby5]

You mean like we STILL DO with oil companies.

I would add many of those oil companies don't pay a penny in federal income taxes.

You should absolutely LOVE oil companies, since they are providing the fuel to generate electricity for EVs. Evs aren't going anywhere without the oil companies.

Fossil fuels don't generate electricity in my state.

We use water, wind, solar and a small nuclear facility.

We started shutting down our last coal fired plant in 2005. I'm sure it's closed by now.

We started building one of the nation's largest wind farms in the 90s.

The result?

We generate more electricity than we use so we sell the excess to other states for a profit. If you live in one of those states, you're welcome for the cheap and clean energy.

We also have the second lowest electric rates in the country.

So my state doesn't need or want fossil fuels to generate electricity.

Untrue anywhere in the US.
Coal is the #1 electricity producer in ALL US states and most of the world.
Many states just do not know how their electricity is produced because it is part of an out of state grid.
It is never going to be possible to use only renewable resources any place in the world except on ocean shores, near high thermal sources, or where one does not mind killing fish.

So, if renewable sources can't supply all our needs, then we will use coal, or gas, or dried cow dung if we have to. We will maintain a reliable energy source of one kind or another. It will just be better for us if we can do that with renewable sources sooner. Nobody wants or expects a complete conversion to renewables before that is possible. Quit whining.

Going to electricity before electricity is renewable, only makes emissions much worse.
Nor does electricity allow for any reasonable totally renewable result eventually either, while bio fuel does.
So there is no point in going electrical.
It is inefficient.
Can you imagine trying to do ships, planes, or even EV trucks?
The would have no capacity to carry anything.
Batteries are way too heavy.

We already have diesel/electric ships and trucks, Electric power has already been proven to be more efficient than direct power by internal combustion. Why are you so afraid of progress? Do you think we will completely convert to battery powered electric before we have technology to match or better internal combustion? That's just silly.

Diesel/electric is nothing at all like EV.
With Diesel/electric, the diesel if the source of energy, and the electric part is just to help transfer the power to different locations near the diesel generator.
Electric power is just an empty front.
It does not say where you get the energy from, so is not a solution at all.
It solves nothing as far as our looming energy crisis.

It is meaningless to say something like "convert to battery powered electric".
Batteries are NOT a source of power.
They are not a source of energy.
They solve nothing, and likely are a false dead end that are just a waste of time.

To do things in transportation, we need something lite, powerful, concentrated, and quickly refilled.
Bio fuel, hydrogen, methane, ethanol, or lots of things can do that, but batteries can not.
They are a dead end that can not and never will satisfy our needs.

 

[Rigby5]

We are at least 50 years from getting even close to getting off fossil fuels. Anyone who believes otherwise is naïve as FUCK.

You could be right, but I doubt it will be that long. There are millions of gas and diesel vehicles on the roads, and all manufacturers aren't converting to electric. The transition will take several years, but I doubt it will be 50.

There are still several MAJOR hurdles to overcome

1) As people have pointed out, 2% of the market is electric. That means that fossil fuel plants will massively grow to charge the 98% and Democrats oppose actual solutions like fracking for natural gas and nuclear

2) Battery technology just isn't there to create enough batteries that last long enough and can be processed at end of life (dispose or recycle)

3) The cheapest electric cars are $50K. Again, 2% of the cars are now electric. Think of the cost of the other 98%.

We're a ways off, those are three MAJOR hurdles to clear

I'm sure there are more hurdles than that. Conversion to electric power won't happen until we have technology to meet the demands. Only a hysteronic idiot would think that will happen. All those major auto companies would never convert to electric vehicles if they thought fhey would lose market share to all the other companies that aren't converting yet.

Those are the same idiotic car companies that keep claiming they will next week have Autonomous Vehicles, when clearly is it NEVER going to happen. These car makers are notorious for false hype and pretending. They are likely checking out the market potential response to their own hype, than they are actually trying to create EVs.
EVs have a commuter niche, but there are lots of things they are bad at and will likely never do.
Like travel.

Again, like with diesel/electric, you fail to address the point.
EV does not have a power source.
We are running out of all fossil fuel, not just gasoline.
So then when someone suggest switching to batteries, that is saying nothing useful.
It does not at all explain how the batteries are supposed to be recharged.
So there is going to be no fuel to recharge the batteries with.
So switching to batters and EVs, is just a waste of time and money.
Stitch to the point, which is what are we going to do for energy?
At this point, bio fuel like ethanol or palm diesel oil makes more sense than fusion, solar, or wind.

 

[Rigby5]

Yep, when you only get 250 miles on a good day from an electric fill up, that took 1 hour, sure, the electric car is the way to go. But if you have to go from Florida to Arizona, and it takes you 10 fill ups and it is cold outside and the days are short, you have to fill up a few more times and longer because battteries dont do well in cold weather.

The inception of the idea about a battery charged-electric vehicle is indeed ... compact, light and far more efficient nickel/metal (NiMH) accumulators. ... A brave new world is upon us, with many pioneers leading the way of developments. ...​

Hey, get your jollies off on electric cars all you want, but a few facts are in order:

1. GM isn't phasing out gas cars until 15 years from now, so they say today.
2. A great many people rely on the USED market buying used gasoline cars up to ten years old. That means there will still be a steady demand for used gas cars at least until 2045.
3. In a bad economy, a $4,000 used gas car will be easier to sell than a $60,000 new electric car.
4. As time goes on and more people see the liabilities of an electric car, they will be sticking with or going back to gasoline.
5. As gas cars become scarcer on the market, their value will soar.
6. The electric car is a CONSUMER item and will never replace all forms of transportation.
7. The environmental/climatic benefits of electric cars is being greatly overstated.
8. The minute they develop a practical hydrogen fuel cell, they will drop electric battery cars like hot cakes making them valueless.
9. Electric cars will be chock full of computer restrictions and government regulations limiting the driver and telling on him; as people realize that, they will flock back to gasoline.
10. The electric car will never fully supplant the gas car until they literally outlaw gas cars, close all gas stations and FORCE everyone to electric.

8. There are many more infrastructure hurdles for hydrogen than there are for electric.

9. You seem to think today's gas powered cars aren't chock full of computers already, and any imagined restrictions you fear could be easily implemented with the technology we currently have.

Hydrogen certainly will be very different to refuel and will require very different fueling stations.

But as for computers and restrictions, I think he is referring to things like keeping a log of all the traffic infractions like speeding, what strip club you went to, etc.

If he thinks that is all computers do in cars, he has no idea of what their main purpose is. They regulate all the aspects of combustion to get more power and less harmful exhaust. It used to be hard to find a factory V8 with 300 horsepower. Now it's common to get that from a four cylinder. Computers made that possible.

Not really.
Computers just made it cheaper.
The main way you increase power is by increasing compression ratio, like with a turbo charger, and then the problem becomes avoiding the deadly pre-ignition.
Pre-ignition can easily be prevented by mechanical fuel injection directly into the cylinders, like diesels used to have, and the only problem with that is it is expensive.

But some people are under the false impression computers can actually see and recognize things in real time speeds, and that is false.
Computers are about 100 million times slower at recognizing images than humans.

I don't know of any automotive computer functions that involve recognizing images. Computers can make thousands of measurements per second, or more on things like pressure, temperature, and position. Automotive knock sensors, which detect preignition, generally work in the 5 to 15 khz range. Computers can generally adjust spark timing to prevent preignition on the next cylinder's ignition.

To have an AV (Autonomous Vehicle), you have to have real time image recognition, so you differentiate between a ped waiting to cross the street, and a light pole.
Yet people are attempting to claim we will all let AVs do the driving in a decade, when clearly it is never going to happen.

Retarding spark timing to prevent pre-ignition is not the best solution.
You get more power, mileage, and run cooler with the most advanced ignition and highest compression.
The solution is Direct Injection.
If you time the fuel injection directly into the cylinder, there can't be any pre-ignition because the fuel it not there until exactly the right time it should detonate.

 

[Jim H - VA USA]

If the power was near the same, the gear ratios would be near the same. Your numbers are an exaggerated lie. Of course, you could identify the brand and engine sizes so the actual numbers could be checked, and prove me wrong. I'll bet a dollar you won't.

>If the power was near the same, the gear ratios would be near the same. Your numbers are an exaggerated lie. Of course, you could identify the brand and engine sizes so the actual numbers could be checked, and prove me wrong. I'll bet a dollar you won't.

My bad.

I was assuming that each time a cylinder fires, it will propel you so far. A V6 will propel you 50% further than a four-cylinder for every revolution, all else being equal.

Gear and transmission ratios, as well as tire size matter more, and my number is exaggerated and not really based upon modern tech.

I own both four- and six-cyclinder vehicles, and the RPM is certainly higher in the fours for a given speed.

Hyundai Santa Fe 2013 came in both four- and six-cylinder versions.

https://www.cars.com/research/hyundai-santa_fe-2013/specs/355026/

https://www.cars.com/research/hyundai-santa_fe-2013/specs/358172/

Final drive ratio is 3.648 for the four, and 3.393 for the six. Both have 0.772 6th gear ratios, so that's only about 7.5% different.

The four has 17" wheels, but they are 235/65 whereas the six has 18 wheels with 235 60 tires, so they have diameters of 29.0 and 29.1" respectively.

So overall revs are only about 8% higher in the four at 60 mph.

I stand corrected. Thanks. To whom should I donate your dollar?

PS: There is a difference between being wrong and lying. Not sure why you went there. I was certain I heard this tale from the experts at Car Talk. I did....

"Larger engines will generate more torque. That allows the use of a transmission that lets the engine run slower for the same given car speed. So while a four-cylinder engine might turn at 2,500 rpm at 65 mph, an eight-cylinder engine might turn at 1,800. That could contribute to longer life."

Do More Cylinders Mean Longer Engine Life?

Ray discusses cylinders, longevity, and dodo birds.

www.cartalk.com

 

[westwall]

bad bad news for all authoritarian gas-stations like KSA, Muscovy, Venezuela , what will happened to them once oil (so no crazy jets full of cash landing on the roof of the Putin´s dacha) becomes what is coal today ?

"
....
We are in the middle of the biggest revolution in motoring since Henry Ford's first production line started turning back in 1913.
And it is likely to happen much more quickly than you imagine.
Many industry observers believe we have already passed the tipping point where sales of electric vehicles (EVs) will very rapidly overwhelm petrol and diesel cars....

Jaguar plans to sell only electric cars from 2025, Volvo from 2030 and last week the British sportscar company Lotus said it would follow suit, selling only electric models from 2028.

General Motors says it will make only electric vehicles by 2035, Ford says all vehicles sold in Europe will be electric by 2030 and VW says 70% of its sales will be electric by 2030."

Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

The BBC's Justin Rowlatt explains why we are accelerating towards an electric car future.

www.bbc.com

Electric cars aren't eco-friendly contrary to they'd have you believe.

still they will bring oil prices back to normality, which means death of moscow empire, KSA (wahhabism) etc

Even now electric cars are clearner than the ICE. It may take a couple of years during the EVs life cycle to catch up but in the end they are better for the environment. And that of course will change as our power grid is filled with even more diverse green energy.

Benefits of electric cars on the environment

All you need to know about electric cars, also known as EVs, and their effect on our environment. Find out if electric or petrol cars are a better choice for our planet.

www.edfenergy.com

I wouldn't necessarily say to go out and buy and EV to save the planet, wait until you need a car and then look for used or new EVs.

EV's are only cleaner if you ignore the environmental damage engendered with the mining of the lithium, the transport of the lithium across the oceans repeatedly, the fossil fuels used to obtain the lithium and transport it. The fossil fuels expended in processing it, and, of course, the environmental horror story waiting to be told when the tens of thousands of highly toxic, worn out batteries are needing to be dealt with.

Nope
During the entire lifespan of an EV to include the battery compnents they are still more environmentally friendly. They start out of the gate at a deficit however after a few years of use surpass ICEs.

Facts say otherwise. Your opinion, and those of the propagandists who feed you your BS are immaterial. Facts don't lie, and the facts show your claims to be horse poo.

That was very convincing.

Just one of hundreds of reports and papers that address your lies.

Developing countries pay environmental cost of electric car batteries​

22 July 2020

Growth in electric car sales is great news for the fight against climate change, but the mining of the minerals used in their batteries poses serious risks for the environment.​

Developing countries pay environmental cost of electric car batteries

Global consumers are warming up to electric cars, whose sales are expected to jump from 3 million vehicles in 2017 to 23 million in 2030, according to the International Energy Agency. Similar growth is expected for rechargeable batteries, with the market for cathode – the positive electrode of...

unctad.org

Doesnt address the point I made.

Anyway climate change endangers us all.

Actually, it does. And of course climate change affects us all. Far better to mitigate ACTUAL problems, than squander 74 trillion dollars in a ridiculous effort to lower the global temperature, by 1 degree in a hundred years, maybe, which is the stated UN goal. Don't ya think?

 

[westwall]

bad bad news for all authoritarian gas-stations like KSA, Muscovy, Venezuela , what will happened to them once oil (so no crazy jets full of cash landing on the roof of the Putin´s dacha) becomes what is coal today ?

"
....
We are in the middle of the biggest revolution in motoring since Henry Ford's first production line started turning back in 1913.
And it is likely to happen much more quickly than you imagine.
Many industry observers believe we have already passed the tipping point where sales of electric vehicles (EVs) will very rapidly overwhelm petrol and diesel cars....

Jaguar plans to sell only electric cars from 2025, Volvo from 2030 and last week the British sportscar company Lotus said it would follow suit, selling only electric models from 2028.

General Motors says it will make only electric vehicles by 2035, Ford says all vehicles sold in Europe will be electric by 2030 and VW says 70% of its sales will be electric by 2030."

Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think

The BBC's Justin Rowlatt explains why we are accelerating towards an electric car future.

www.bbc.com

Yep, when you only get 250 miles on a good day from an electric fill up, that took 1 hour, sure, the electric car is the way to go. But if you have to go from Florida to Arizona, and it takes you 10 fill ups and it is cold outside and the days are short, you have to fill up a few more times and longer because battteries dont do well in cold weather. And all those coal fired power plants need to be churning out the CO2 for the demand of all that electricity during that time because what happened in Texas can happen any where else.

Valentine's Week Winter Outbreak 2021: Snow, Ice, & Record Cold

Current EVs are not for long trips, but it can easily be done and has. With that said, how many ppl are driving from Florida to Arizona? That's a trip you make once in a lifetime, if ever. You make it sound like a daily commute. You don't completely drain the battery and sit 45 minutes at every charging station unless you're an idiot. The last 15-20% of charge is probably what takes the longest, you can basically just top off at 80% and be on your way in 25 minutes if for some reason you need to go from 0-80%. The onboard computer tells you exactly how much charge you have left, what it will take for you to get to the next charging station and how long each time it will take to charge.

Also, the newest Tesla roadster is said to have a maximum range of 620 miles per charge, which exceeds the longest range gas powered vehicle. I can guarantee this number will become the norm in cheaper cars within 5 years. If Tesla has it's away it'll happen a lot sooner.

Evs will also greatly benefit Europeans who want a car because gas is insanely expensive in Europe.

I've seen numerous videos on youTube showing people making trips of over 1000 miles in a Tesla

Where?