Why exactly are you unwilling to pay for other people's medical care?

[dblack]

What is your answer to those questions?

Practically all state constitutions or statutes make the states responsible for public education and also regularization of healthcare. Federal health and aid to education are justified through the general welfare clause.

I'm very much NOT interested in existing statutes or constitutional interpretations. Nor do I care about predictions of what is likely or politically possible. I'm asking if you think it's a good idea to use government in this way. Do you think it's good government? Do you understand why I think it's not?

Yes, because government exists to serve the people, not the privileged few who would benefit from lower cost government.

To serve them against their will?

Car insurance, seat-belt laws, traffic lights...

Fuck off, troll.

 

[oldsoul]

Two reasons why the "not with my tax dollars!!!11!" group is resistant to tuition-free education at state universities (which, BTW, is the way it used to be in the 1950s they ordinarily tout so highly). Two-year certificate kids might compete with their own kids for jobs, and four-year kids getting "free stuff" is anathema.

Wrong again. If you want to put your money into someone else's education, go head. I would rather have the CHOICE as to what CHARITIES I donate to, if I donate at all. It is not the role of government, nor should it be, to re-distribute wealth. I come from the group of people that sent their kids to two year college, because that's what they could afford. I hope to have the resourses to send my son to any college he chooses, and I don't want a hand-out to do it.

And if you don't have the resources? "Sorry, kid. Sucks to be you"?

You do realize you will have a choice to send your son to a private college regardless of whether state universities return to their original tuition-free status, right?

You're missing the point.
If Socialism was so great then how is it that EVERY time it's tried it collapes upon itself?

You should really start a thread to promote your hypothesis in the appropriate forum, because it will go largely unnoticed here.

Now, I'm willing to continue discussing education in the healthcare forum, but only if you can stay on topic.

Were you aware that (A) state universities used to be tuition-free and (B) regardless of who's elected, you would still have the choice of sending your son to a private college...if, as you say, you had the resources? If you didn't, you might appreciate a tuition-free state university as an alternative. I'm fairly confident your son would appreciate the opportunity for higher education vs "Tough luck, kid." JMO.

First of all The OP question gets to the very core of what socialism is all about, so I have not strayed off topic, and I am not the one who brought up education in the first place.

Second, no I was not aware that state universities where tuition-free, and yes I know I will have the option of private college, for now at least. What is your point? A mistake was made and corrected.

Third, why is it that you think that I would raise my son to believe that a hand-out from the government is ok to accept? Furthermore, why is it that most liberals believe that if the government does not provide then people are on their own? I, for example, received scholarships from several private organizations to take part in life changing experiences, such as Post-Secondary School. It is very interesting to me that the same people who claim "the rich should pay their fair share" (liberals), discount what the "rich" do despite "paying their fair share".

As to the OP, I am willing to help pay for heathcare for those less fortunate than myself. However, I would prefer to do it on my terms, it's my money, I earned it, who the f*** are you to tell me what I should use it for?

What is next? Socialised car ownership? Homes? (kinda got started in the 1990's) Cell phones? Oh, wait, already happened. Where does the re-distribution stop? When everyone has exactly the same things? Is it really un-fairness, or is it that some people are willing to make sacrifices others are not? Some are willing to work harder/smarter than others. If socialized medicine is sooo wonderful, why are the Canadians, who have the ability, coming to the U.S. for treatment? Or the Europeans? Or the Castros? Or pretty much everyone throughout the world?

So, yes, I am willing to help those less fortunate than me, but it should be on my terms, not some arbitrary government mandate.

 

[Conservative65]

So we're now requiring people to have insurance just because they happen to be breathing?

And calling themselves U.S. citizens.

BTW, as a veteran, you might want to pay attention to this:

GOP Candidate Says Military Retirees Must Pay More for Health Care | Military.com

Does Cecilie know what deductibles were like before the PPACA? Of course she doesn't.

I do. I also know that the copays have doubled since Obamacare went into effect while, prior to that, they changed very little the over 10 year time I've been there.

Then you need to speak to your employer about choosing a different insurer for your group plan.

It's the same with ALL of them...

No, it isn't. Whoever told you that is lying. Of course, you have the ability to check for yourself, but we both know you won't, so there you are.

Already have. We know you could accept the truth but it would mean destroying the bleeding heart mindset you have.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Then require everyone to get auto insurance also even if they don't have a vehicle.

As soon as you require the noncorporeal to have health insurance.

I see... Just because they breath and may one day need to drive during an emergency you aren't going to force them to have insurance for that.

Hypocrite!

just because they are breathing...

...and living in the U.S. and calling themselves "Americans" and expecting the privileges of being Americans. You keep leaving that part out. Why?

You're the one who's bringing it up...

What privileges are they being given that concerns you so much?

The privilege of seeking healthcare from an American clinic or hospital without a concomitant ability to pay for it.

What????? Do you work for the health care system and have one of these guys/gals come in and not pay for services rendered? Lot's of businesses have that happen to them. Screw this having to buy insurance or having a 'single payer system'...

Here's the solution I'll accept since you seem so intent on having health care available to all. Nationalize the health care industry and put all it's employees on the government/military pay scale. Then health care is made available to all for the same price.

*****CHUCKLE*****

 

[dblack]

Here's the solution I'll accept since you seem so intent on having health care available to all. Nationalize the health care industry and put all it's employees on the government/military pay scale. Then health care is made available to all for the same price.

If we're going to make health care a government responsibility, that's the only sane way to do it. Or better yet, don't nationalize it, but rather handle it like we do state funded public education.

But that's where common sense gets in the way of underlying motives.

 

[Damaged Eagle]

Here's the solution I'll accept since you seem so intent on having health care available to all. Nationalize the health care industry and put all it's employees on the government/military pay scale. Then health care is made available to all for the same price.

If we're going to make health care a government responsibility, that's the only sane way to do it. Or better yet, don't nationalize it, but rather handle it like we do state funded public education.

But that's where common sense gets in the way of underlying motives.

The people in public education make more than the people in private education in the area that I live in. Yet the private school students do better on placements for college. I think all of the people in public education should be put on the government military pay scale also..... Besides when the school administrator makes more than a O-9, five star general/admiral, with thirty years in there's something wrong with the way government pays it's employees.

*****SMILE*****

 

[Conservative65]

Two reasons why the "not with my tax dollars!!!11!" group is resistant to tuition-free education at state universities (which, BTW, is the way it used to be in the 1950s they ordinarily tout so highly). Two-year certificate kids might compete with their own kids for jobs, and four-year kids getting "free stuff" is anathema.

Wrong again. If you want to put your money into someone else's education, go head. I would rather have the CHOICE as to what CHARITIES I donate to, if I donate at all. It is not the role of government, nor should it be, to re-distribute wealth. I come from the group of people that sent their kids to two year college, because that's what they could afford. I hope to have the resourses to send my son to any college he chooses, and I don't want a hand-out to do it.

And if you don't have the resources? "Sorry, kid. Sucks to be you"?

You do realize you will have a choice to send your son to a private college regardless of whether state universities return to their original tuition-free status, right?

You're missing the point.
If Socialism was so great then how is it that EVERY time it's tried it collapes upon itself?

You should really start a thread to promote your hypothesis in the appropriate forum, because it will go largely unnoticed here.

Now, I'm willing to continue discussing education in the healthcare forum, but only if you can stay on topic.

Were you aware that (A) state universities used to be tuition-free and (B) regardless of who's elected, you would still have the choice of sending your son to a private college...if, as you say, you had the resources? If you didn't, you might appreciate a tuition-free state university as an alternative. I'm fairly confident your son would appreciate the opportunity for higher education vs "Tough luck, kid." JMO.

First of all The OP question gets to the very core of what socialism is all about, so I have not strayed off topic, and I am not the one who brought up education in the first place.

Second, no I was not aware that state universities where tuition-free, and yes I know I will have the option of private college, for now at least. What is your point? A mistake was made and corrected.

Third, why is it that you think that I would raise my son to believe that a hand-out from the government is ok to accept? Furthermore, why is it that most liberals believe that if the government does not provide then people are on their own? I, for example, received scholarships from several private organizations to take part in life changing experiences, such as Post-Secondary School. It is very interesting to me that the same people who claim "the rich should pay their fair share" (liberals), discount what the "rich" do despite "paying their fair share".

As to the OP, I am willing to help pay for heathcare for those less fortunate than myself. However, I would prefer to do it on my terms, it's my money, I earned it, who the f*** are you to tell me what I should use it for?

What is next? Socialised car ownership? Homes? (kinda got started in the 1990's) Cell phones? Oh, wait, already happened. Where does the re-distribution stop? When everyone has exactly the same things? Is it really un-fairness, or is it that some people are willing to make sacrifices others are not? Some are willing to work harder/smarter than others. If socialized medicine is sooo wonderful, why are the Canadians, who have the ability, coming to the U.S. for treatment? Or the Europeans? Or the Castros? Or pretty much everyone throughout the world?

So, yes, I am willing to help those less fortunate than me, but it should be on my terms, not some arbitrary government mandate.

Your last sentence says it all. The bleeding hearts on the left think it's their place to determine on someone else's behalf who and to what level someone should be helped. If I see something as a legitimate need, If I can help I will. If I don't see it as such and my answer is no, the bleeding hearts think it's OK to force it from me and others because they've determined it is legitimate and the I and others should help.

 

[Arianrhod]

It's the same with ALL of them...

No, it isn't. Whoever told you that is lying. Of course, you have the ability to check for yourself, but we both know you won't, so there you are.

Already have. We know you could accept the truth but it would mean destroying the bleeding heart mindset you have.

You expect people to believe that you compared every tier of every insurer in your state and they all quoted you exactly the same premium and exactly the same deductible? Extraordinary.

Then require everyone to get auto insurance also even if they don't have a vehicle.

As soon as you require the noncorporeal to have health insurance.

I see... Just because they breath and may one day need to drive during an emergency you aren't going to force them to have insurance for that.

Hypocrite!

Hey, if you want to call your Congressman and demand insurance coverage for zombies, no one’s stopping you. OTOH, it might be more productive of you to look at the voting records of the current Presidential candidates and see who’s got the best record on veterans’ benefits.

Except of course three of them have no records because they’ve never been part of any governmental body ever. Well, maybe Carson did pro bono work at a VA hospital once; I’m sure that would be on his record.

just because they are breathing...

...and living in the U.S. and calling themselves "Americans" and expecting the privileges of being Americans. You keep leaving that part out. Why?

You're the one who's bringing it up...

What privileges are they being given that concerns you so much?

The privilege of seeking healthcare from an American clinic or hospital without a concomitant ability to pay for it.

What????? Do you work for the health care system and have one of these guys/gals come in and not pay for services rendered? Lot's of businesses have that happen to them. Screw this having to buy insurance or having a 'single payer system'...

The point you’re missing is that if more people have insurance, fewer people will kite without paying their bills. Hospital costs go down, hospitals don’t have to close or file for bankruptcy – win/win.

Here's the solution I'll accept since you seem so intent on having health care available to all. Nationalize the health care industry and put all it's employees on the government/military pay scale. Then health care is made available to all for the same price.

Whatever system we end up with, we’ll have had the advantage of studying the existing systems in other countries and learning from their mistakes.

 

[Conservative65]

It's the same with ALL of them...

No, it isn't. Whoever told you that is lying. Of course, you have the ability to check for yourself, but we both know you won't, so there you are.

Already have. We know you could accept the truth but it would mean destroying the bleeding heart mindset you have.

You expect people to believe that you compared every tier of every insurer in your state and they all quoted you exactly the same premium and exactly the same deductible? Extraordinary.

Then require everyone to get auto insurance also even if they don't have a vehicle.

As soon as you require the noncorporeal to have health insurance.

I see... Just because they breath and may one day need to drive during an emergency you aren't going to force them to have insurance for that.

Hypocrite!

Hey, if you want to call your Congressman and demand insurance coverage for zombies, no one’s stopping you. OTOH, it might be more productive of you to look at the voting records of the current Presidential candidates and see who’s got the best record on veterans’ benefits.

Except of course three of them have no records because they’ve never been part of any governmental body ever. Well, maybe Carson did pro bono work at a VA hospital once; I’m sure that would be on his record.

just because they are breathing...

...and living in the U.S. and calling themselves "Americans" and expecting the privileges of being Americans. You keep leaving that part out. Why?

You're the one who's bringing it up...

What privileges are they being given that concerns you so much?

The privilege of seeking healthcare from an American clinic or hospital without a concomitant ability to pay for it.

What????? Do you work for the health care system and have one of these guys/gals come in and not pay for services rendered? Lot's of businesses have that happen to them. Screw this having to buy insurance or having a 'single payer system'...

The point you’re missing is that if more people have insurance, fewer people will kite without paying their bills. Hospital costs go down, hospitals don’t have to close or file for bankruptcy – win/win.

Here's the solution I'll accept since you seem so intent on having health care available to all. Nationalize the health care industry and put all it's employees on the government/military pay scale. Then health care is made available to all for the same price.

Whatever system we end up with, we’ll have had the advantage of studying the existing systems in other countries and learning from their mistakes.

I serve as an elected commissioner for the local fire department where I live. One of the biggest expenses we have is insurance. I'm not on it as the position is non-compensated by pay or benefits. I've checked. You don't have to believe me for it to be true but your refusal to do so because you disagree is that of a typical Democrat. Still claiming you aren't one?

 

[oldsoul]

Here's the solution I'll accept since you seem so intent on having health care available to all. Nationalize the health care industry and put all it's employees on the government/military pay scale. Then health care is made available to all for the same price.

If we're going to make health care a government responsibility, that's the only sane way to do it. Or better yet, don't nationalize it, but rather handle it like we do state funded public education.

But that's where common sense gets in the way of underlying motives.

Oh, right. Cause Public education has been such a rousing sucess... LOL

 

[oldsoul]

It's the same with ALL of them...

No, it isn't. Whoever told you that is lying. Of course, you have the ability to check for yourself, but we both know you won't, so there you are.

Already have. We know you could accept the truth but it would mean destroying the bleeding heart mindset you have.

You expect people to believe that you compared every tier of every insurer in your state and they all quoted you exactly the same premium and exactly the same deductible? Extraordinary.

Then require everyone to get auto insurance also even if they don't have a vehicle.

As soon as you require the noncorporeal to have health insurance.

I see... Just because they breath and may one day need to drive during an emergency you aren't going to force them to have insurance for that.

Hypocrite!

Hey, if you want to call your Congressman and demand insurance coverage for zombies, no one’s stopping you. OTOH, it might be more productive of you to look at the voting records of the current Presidential candidates and see who’s got the best record on veterans’ benefits.

Except of course three of them have no records because they’ve never been part of any governmental body ever. Well, maybe Carson did pro bono work at a VA hospital once; I’m sure that would be on his record.

just because they are breathing...

...and living in the U.S. and calling themselves "Americans" and expecting the privileges of being Americans. You keep leaving that part out. Why?

You're the one who's bringing it up...

What privileges are they being given that concerns you so much?

The privilege of seeking healthcare from an American clinic or hospital without a concomitant ability to pay for it.

What????? Do you work for the health care system and have one of these guys/gals come in and not pay for services rendered? Lot's of businesses have that happen to them. Screw this having to buy insurance or having a 'single payer system'...

The point you’re missing is that if more people have insurance, fewer people will kite without paying their bills. Hospital costs go down, hospitals don’t have to close or file for bankruptcy – win/win.

Here's the solution I'll accept since you seem so intent on having health care available to all. Nationalize the health care industry and put all it's employees on the government/military pay scale. Then health care is made available to all for the same price.

Whatever system we end up with, we’ll have had the advantage of studying the existing systems in other countries and learning from their mistakes.

The piont you're missing, is: if more people have isurance, more people will go to the doctor, overwelming and already inadaquate number of doctors. Therefore, forcing rationing.

Whatever system we end up with, we’ll have had the advantage of studying the existing systems in other countries and learning from their mistakes.

Because, it's not that the system is flawed, it's that we haven't done it yet...

 

[Conservative65]

Here's the solution I'll accept since you seem so intent on having health care available to all. Nationalize the health care industry and put all it's employees on the government/military pay scale. Then health care is made available to all for the same price.

If we're going to make health care a government responsibility, that's the only sane way to do it. Or better yet, don't nationalize it, but rather handle it like we do state funded public education.

But that's where common sense gets in the way of underlying motives.

Oh, right. Cause Public education has been such a rousing sucess... LOL

There are students coming out of high school that have to take remedial classes in college and those that run the educational system in this country want the rest of us to believe they can do a good job with healthcare.

 

[Arianrhod]

I serve as an elected commissioner for the local fire department where I live. One of the biggest expenses we have is insurance. I'm not on it as the position is non-compensated by pay or benefits. I've checked. You don't have to believe me for it to be true but your refusal to do so because you disagree is that of a typical Democrat. Still claiming you aren't one?

I am registered as unaffiliated. Always have been. Your repeated use of "Democrat" as if it's something illicit is your perception and nothing else. Constantly harping on it undermines your credibility.

As for your local fire department, if it employs fewer than 49 people, it's exempt from the PPACA mandate. As a board member, you should be aware of that.

Oh, right. Cause Public education has been such a rousing sucess... LOL

Do you think a national education system would be preferable?

 

[Conservative65]

I serve as an elected commissioner for the local fire department where I live. One of the biggest expenses we have is insurance. I'm not on it as the position is non-compensated by pay or benefits. I've checked. You don't have to believe me for it to be true but your refusal to do so because you disagree is that of a typical Democrat. Still claiming you aren't one?

I am registered as unaffiliated. Always have been. Your repeated use of "Democrat" as if it's something illicit is your perception and nothing else. Constantly harping on it undermines your credibility.

As for your local fire department, if it employs fewer than 49 people, it's exempt from the PPACA mandate. As a board member, you should be aware of that.

Oh, right. Cause Public education has been such a rousing sucess... LOL

Do you think a national education system would be preferable?

You can call yourself what you want. It's what you support that matters. Refusing to acknowledge it undermines what little you thought you had.

As a board member, I do know that. I wouldn't have said anything about it if it we had less than 49. That should tell you something.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Does Cecilie know what deductibles were like before the PPACA? Of course she doesn't.

I do. I also know that the copays have doubled since Obamacare went into effect while, prior to that, they changed very little the over 10 year time I've been there.

He's one of those liberals who thinks if he just makes a vague reference to some information he doesn't provide, we'll believe it exists without demanding that he prove it.

 

[oldsoul]

Um... What do you think the common core debacle is?

 

[Cecilie1200]

So we're now requiring people to have insurance just because they happen to be breathing?

And calling themselves U.S. citizens.

BTW, as a veteran, you might want to pay attention to this:

GOP Candidate Says Military Retirees Must Pay More for Health Care | Military.com

Does Cecilie know what deductibles were like before the PPACA? Of course she doesn't.

I do. I also know that the copays have doubled since Obamacare went into effect while, prior to that, they changed very little the over 10 year time I've been there.

Then you need to speak to your employer about choosing a different insurer for your group plan.

It's the same with ALL of them and it didn't happen until Obamacare went into effect. Again, do you really want to keep saying you're not a Democrat?

He must have missed the fact that many employers are looking at dropping health insurance and making their employees subject themselves to the exchanges.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So we're now requiring people to have insurance just because they happen to be breathing?

And calling themselves U.S. citizens.

BTW, as a veteran, you might want to pay attention to this:

GOP Candidate Says Military Retirees Must Pay More for Health Care | Military.com

It's nice to know that we now have such a free society with people like you around.

Were you going to answer the other question about obtaining a license to breed or is that next on the progressive agenda and you don't want to let the secret out quite yet?

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."
C. S. Lewis

I already knew about the changes to the VA medical... Obviously the vets are going to have to start being paid more by giving them 5-10% pay increases, like a lot of the government employees not in the military think they need, to they can meet their obligations since the government wishes to keep cutting their benefits.

*****CHUCKLE*****

Reminds me of an old saying: "She was the kind of person who lived for other people. You could tell the other people by the hunted expression on their faces."

God save me from people who want to do "what's best for me", whether I agree or not.

 

[SAYIT]

Two reasons why the "not with my tax dollars!!!11!" group is resistant to tuition-free education at state universities (which, BTW, is the way it used to be in the 1950s they ordinarily tout so highly). Two-year certificate kids might compete with their own kids for jobs, and four-year kids getting "free stuff" is anathema.

Wrong again. If you want to put your money into someone else's education, go head. I would rather have the CHOICE as to what CHARITIES I donate to, if I donate at all. It is not the role of government, nor should it be, to re-distribute wealth. I come from the group of people that sent their kids to two year college, because that's what they could afford. I hope to have the resourses to send my son to any college he chooses, and I don't want a hand-out to do it.

You are speaking a language our socialist types just can't comprehend because the concept of self-reliance confuses them.

They can not and will not relinquish what they consider their constitutional right to spend your money as they see fit.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Here's the solution I'll accept since you seem so intent on having health care available to all. Nationalize the health care industry and put all it's employees on the government/military pay scale. Then health care is made available to all for the same price.

If we're going to make health care a government responsibility, that's the only sane way to do it. Or better yet, don't nationalize it, but rather handle it like we do state funded public education.

But that's where common sense gets in the way of underlying motives.

Oh, right. Cause Public education has been such a rousing sucess... LOL

There are students coming out of high school that have to take remedial classes in college and those that run the educational system in this country want the rest of us to believe they can do a good job with healthcare.

One need only look at the Internet to see how functionally illiterate much of our population has become.