Why exactly are you unwilling to pay for other people's medical care?

[Pop23]

Right now there is someone who requires immediate medical care. That care will only be provided for payment. That someone has no money to pay it. You do. Are you not morally obligated to ensure that they receive the care they need?

No, and why even ask?

I am morally obligated to pay for the needs of the one I married and the offspring that we brought into this world.

Ends there

If I choose to care for others that's my call, and from that point on its not yours or anyone else's business.

 

[Arianrhod]

Right now there is someone who requires immediate medical care. That care will only be provided for payment. That someone has no money to pay it. You do. Are you not morally obligated to ensure that they receive the care they need?

No, and why even ask?

I am morally obligated to pay for the needs of the one I married and the offspring that we brought into this world.

Ends there

If I choose to care for others that's my call, and from that point on its not yours or anyone else's business.

So you must be glad that more people have insurance and won't be running up your medical costs by showing up in the ER.

 

[Pop23]

Right now there is someone who requires immediate medical care. That care will only be provided for payment. That someone has no money to pay it. You do. Are you not morally obligated to ensure that they receive the care they need?

No, and why even ask?

I am morally obligated to pay for the needs of the one I married and the offspring that we brought into this world.

Ends there

If I choose to care for others that's my call, and from that point on its not yours or anyone else's business.

So you must be glad that more people have insurance and won't be running up your medical costs by showing up in the ER.

I could care less

My opinion is now, and has always been, if you truly want to reduce the cost of medical costs you would make the ponzie scheme known as health insurance illegal.

Short of that, you, and no one else really give a flying frick. You just want to use the sick to make political points.

And that is what is truly immoral

 

[Arianrhod]

I could care less

True. You did care enough to post about it. If you couldn't care less, you wouldn't have bothered.

My opinion is now, and has always been, if you truly want to reduce the cost of medical costs you would make the ponzie scheme known as health insurance illegal.

It's funny how many of you are now crying "single payer." It's what most of us wanted from the beginning, but y'all shouted us down with "SOCIALISM!!111!" and we have the PPACA. However, as more and more of you cry "single payer," it will eventually come to pass.

 

[Pop23]

I could care less

True. You did care enough to post about it. If you couldn't care less, you wouldn't have bothered.

My opinion is now, and has always been, if you truly want to reduce the cost of medical costs you would make the ponzie scheme known as health insurance illegal.

It's funny how many of you are now crying "single payer." It's what most of us wanted from the beginning, but y'all shouted us down with "SOCIALISM!!111!" and we have the PPACA. However, as more and more of you cry "single payer," it will eventually come to pass.

Are you warped?

You asked a question, you got an answer. Deal with that Nancy

I'm crying single payer?

No, I want no government or private insurance. They're both ponzie schemes nimrod.

 

[Arianrhod]

You asked a question, you got an answer.

Yes, I did. I'm not the one who's angry.

I'm crying single payer?

No, I want no government or private insurance. They're both ponzie schemes.

Ah. So you figure you'd be able to pay for cancer treatment or heart surgery or even a broken leg out of pocket. That's...interesting.

 

[Pop23]

You asked a question, you got an answer.

Yes, I did. I'm not the one who's angry.

I'm crying single payer?

No, I want no government or private insurance. They're both ponzie schemes.

Ah. So you figure you'd be able to pay for cancer treatment or heart surgery or even a broken leg out of pocket. That's...interesting.

If health insurance was illegal?

Damn straight I could

 

[Arianrhod]

If health insurance was illegal?

Damn straight I could

So you want the government to make insurance illegal. Ignoring the complexities of that for a moment, let's look at one example:

Say you're in a car accident. You lose control of your vehicle on a rain-slick road and hit a utility pole. There are no other vehicles involved, so it's up to your insurance company to handle the claim (unless you'd want the government to abolish auto insurance as well). Your car's radiator is crushed, so the car is inoperable.

You suffer whiplash, a concussion, a broken ankle, several broken ribs, and possible internal damage.

When the ambulance arrives, the EMTs tell you "Sir, now that the government has abolished health insurance, we need you to pay upfront." Depending on how far you are from the nearest hospital, that ambulance ride alone - not counting the treatment you're given before you're removed from your car and again in the ambulance on the way to the hospital - is anywhere from $800-1,300.

With me so far?

I'm guessing this is the part where you say "I'd refuse to get in the ambulance. I'd drive myself to the hospital." Or "I'd drive home and take care of my own injuries."

Am I close?

 

[Pop23]

If health insurance was illegal?

Damn straight I could

So you want the government to make insurance illegal. Ignoring the complexities of that for a moment, let's look at one example:

Say you're in a car accident. You lose control of your vehicle on a rain-slick road and hit a utility pole. There are no other vehicles involved, so it's up to your insurance company to handle the claim (unless you'd want the government to abolish auto insurance as well). Your car's radiator is crushed, so the car is inoperable.

You suffer whiplash, a concussion, a broken ankle, several broken ribs, and possible internal damage.

When the ambulance arrives, the EMTs tell you "Sir, now that the government has abolished health insurance, we need you to pay upfront." Depending on how far you are from the nearest hospital, that ambulance ride alone - not counting the treatment you're given before you're removed from your car and again in the ambulance on the way to the hospital - is anywhere from $800-1,300.

With me so far?

I'm guessing this is the part where you say "I'd refuse to get in the ambulance. I'd drive myself to the hospital." Or "I'd drive home and take care of my own injuries."

Am I close?

Close to being taught a lesson, yes.

Do you think health insurance was common throughout history?

No, we muddled along just fine without it through most of human existence. And beleive it or not, there were car accidents way back then.

Amazing how we could handle the expense prior to the establishment of health insurance and the SKYROCKETING COSTS IT CREATED.

 

[Arianrhod]

Do you think health insurance was common throughout history?

No. I'm quite aware of employers offering their employees health insurance post-WWII in lieu of salary increases.

I'm also aware that the original insurers were nonprofit, and that costs didn't begin to skyrocket until the for-profit insurers entered the market.

No, we muddled along just fine without it through most of human existence. And beleive it or not, there were car accidents way back then.

Amazing how we could handle the expense prior to the establishment of health insurance and the SKYROCKETING COSTS IT CREATED.

For-profit insurers. That modifier is pivotal.

And if you think a government mandate to abolish insurance will by some Randian "free market" magic drive costs down, you'll have to show how.

Never mind that many of your elected officials are on the boards of these for-profit insurers and are hardly about to bite the hand that feeds them their honoraria every year, or the fact that the insurers have some very powerful lobbyists...but how would you dismantle the health insurance industry and, even if you could, how would that magically make prices go down?

While you're pondering that (and avoiding the consequences of the hypothetical motor vehicle accident), let's return to the scene of the accident and see what happens next:

You’ve lost enough blood to merit a unit of plasma in the ambulance. Cost: $150-190.

Cost of EMTs’ services: $500-1,000.

Both paid upfront, of course or, in your no-insurance scenario, the EMTs would legally be allowed to dump you out of the ambulance to die on the roadside.

But you pay, and you’re brought to the ER.

Cost of x-rays: $425+ each for the ankle and the ribs.
Cost of an MRI to rule out a ruptured spleen from the rib fracture: $525-900.
Blood draws: $44-107 each.

Again, keep that checkbook handy, because the ER staff is now legally allowed to refuse you services for which you cannot or will not pay.

But, hey, you’re in luck! Your spleen is only mildly bruised, not ruptured, so you won’t need a splenectomy, which would have run you $1,664-2,064.

However, setting the ribs, aside from being excruciating, will cost up to $12,000.

And the x-ray shows that your ankle is broken. Surgery will cost you $9,719-17,634.

You’ll also need to stay in the hospital overnight, to the tune of $1,200-2,000.

Before you can leave the hospital, you’ll be billed for every medication, surgical dressing, the crutches you’ll need until the ankle heals. One Vicodin can set you back $22…maybe Rush can hook you up.

So, tell us again how you’d be able to pay for all that out of pocket.

 

[Pop23]

Do you think health insurance was common throughout history?

No. I'm quite aware of employers offering their employees health insurance post-WWII in lieu of salary increases.

I'm also aware that the original insurers were nonprofit, and that costs didn't begin to skyrocket until the for-profit insurers entered the market.

No, we muddled along just fine without it through most of human existence. And beleive it or not, there were car accidents way back then.

Amazing how we could handle the expense prior to the establishment of health insurance and the SKYROCKETING COSTS IT CREATED.

For-profit insurers. That modifier is pivotal.

And if you think a government mandate to abolish insurance will by some Randian "free market" magic drive costs down, you'll have to show how.

Never mind that many of your elected officials are on the boards of these for-profit insurers and are hardly about to bite the hand that feeds them their honoraria every year, or the fact that the insurers have some very powerful lobbyists...but how would you dismantle the health insurance industry and, even if you could, how would that magically make prices go down?

While you're pondering that (and avoiding the consequences of the hypothetical motor vehicle accident), let's return to the scene of the accident and see what happens next:

You’ve lost enough blood to merit a unit of plasma in the ambulance. Cost: $150-190.

Cost of EMTs’ services: $500-1,000.

Both paid upfront, of course or, in your no-insurance scenario, the EMTs would legally be allowed to dump you out of the ambulance to die on the roadside.

But you pay, and you’re brought to the ER.

Cost of x-rays: $425+ each for the ankle and the ribs.
Cost of an MRI to rule out a ruptured spleen from the rib fracture: $525-900.
Blood draws: $44-107 each.

Again, keep that checkbook handy, because the ER staff is now legally allowed to refuse you services for which you cannot or will not pay.

But, hey, you’re in luck! Your spleen is only mildly bruised, not ruptured, so you won’t need a splenectomy, which would have run you $1,664-2,064.

However, setting the ribs, aside from being excruciating, will cost up to $12,000.

And the x-ray shows that your ankle is broken. Surgery will cost you $9,719-17,634.

You’ll also need to stay in the hospital overnight, to the tune of $1,200-2,000.

Before you can leave the hospital, you’ll be billed for every medication, surgical dressing, the crutches you’ll need until the ankle heals. One Vicodin can set you back $22…maybe Rush can hook you up.

So, tell us again how you’d be able to pay for all that out of pocket.

Too many assumptions being made I can't figure out where to start.

Ever taken a tour of those wonderful MD's homes? Pay special attention to the numbers of cars and check the state attorney generals offices and see what LLC's they are members of, and what those LLC's own.

I think you need to do some research.

It might blow your mind.

We'll go from there.

 

[Arianrhod]

Too many assumptions being made I can't figure out where to start.

Actual costs of medical care are not "assumptions"; they are fact. I realize many in this forum are allergic to facts, but that won't make them go away.

I'll make it simple for you. Without insurance, that auto accident would cost you a minimum of $27,000 out of pocket.

A chronic illness such as MS without insurance would cost you $62,000 a year.

You must be Donald Trump, because you assure us you could afford that.

Ever taken a tour of those wonderful MD's homes? Pay special attention to the numbers of cars and check the state attorney generals offices and see what LLC's they are members of, and what those LLC's own.

They have tours? Like those Hollywood bus tours of Maps to the Stars? Who knew?

I think you need to do some research.

If you're going to question the data about hospital costs that I provided, you'll need to provide some data of your own. Can you?

It might blow your mind.

We'll go from there.

What amuses me is how some of you think "because I said so" is to be accepted as truth.

Present some facts and we'll go from there.

 

[Pop23]

Too many assumptions being made I can't figure out where to start.

Actual costs of medical care are not "assumptions"; they are fact. I realize many in this forum are allergic to facts, but that won't make them go away.

I'll make it simple for you. Without insurance, that auto accident would cost you a minimum of $27,000 out of pocket.

A chronic illness such as MS without insurance would cost you $62,000 a year.

You must be Donald Trump, because you assure us you could afford that.

Ever taken a tour of those wonderful MD's homes? Pay special attention to the numbers of cars and check the state attorney generals offices and see what LLC's they are members of, and what those LLC's own.

They have tours? Like those Hollywood bus tours of Maps to the Stars? Who knew?

I think you need to do some research.

If you're going to question the data about hospital costs that I provided, you'll need to provide some data of your own. Can you?

It might blow your mind.

We'll go from there.

What amuses me is how some of you think "because I said so" is to be accepted as truth.

Present some facts and we'll go from there.

Would you actually need a tour guide to do this?

Good lord, no wonder this generation, the most educated generation ever, appears so friggin helpless.

Genious, do the tour, check out the LLC's and THEN consider why those ribs cost so friggin much to set.

YOURE PAYING FOR THE MD's BENTLY!

 

[Arianrhod]

YOURE PAYING FOR THE MD's BENTLY!

Whereas in the Soviet Union, MDs were paid very little. They don't earn much in China, either. What are you recommending?

Still waiting for you to show how outlawing health insurance will magically change that. Obviously you can't.

You're incapable of even refuting one of the amounts presented in Post 130.

 

[Pop23]

YOURE PAYING FOR THE MD's BENTLY!

Whereas in the Soviet Union, MDs were paid very little. They don't earn much in China, either. What are you recommending?

Still waiting for you to show how outlawing health insurance will magically change that. Obviously you can't.

You're incapable of even refuting one of the amounts presented in Post 130.

Good lord, I'm obviously posting to a Doctors Kid.

Leaches are leaches.

I laughed my ass off when everyone was pissed off when that dentist in Minnesota killed that lion, I was pissed off when I saw the size of the dudes house, saw his car and realized it was the second time the dude paid $50,000 to hunt a lion, and what, he was 45?

If you need a report to figure out why the cost of medicine is so high......

You need a doctor, cuz you're blind kid.

 

[Arianrhod]

If you need a report to figure out why the cost of medicine is so high......

All I asked you was how outlawing health insurance would magically make prices go down. You've done more dancing than the American Ballet Theater, but you haven't answered the question.

You can't. So do some more grands battements. You're really quite good.

 

[dblack]

Right now there is someone who requires immediate medical care. That care will only be provided for payment. That someone has no money to pay it. You do. Are you not morally obligated to ensure that they receive the care they need?

No, and why even ask?

I am morally obligated to pay for the needs of the one I married and the offspring that we brought into this world.

Ends there

If I choose to care for others that's my call, and from that point on its not yours or anyone else's business.

So you must be glad that more people have insurance and won't be running up your medical costs by showing up in the ER.

I could care less

My opinion is now, and has always been, if you truly want to reduce the cost of medical costs you would make the ponzie scheme known as health insurance illegal. ...

Or, we could just refuse to bail out the people who fall for it. People have a way of avoiding stupidity if it causes them pain. If it doesn't, if try to regulate away the results of their stupidity, we simply get more of it.

 

[Arianrhod]

Or, we could just refuse to bail out the people who fall for it. People have a way of avoiding stupidity if it causes them pain. If it doesn't, if try to regulate away the results of their stupidity, we simply get more of it.

So do you have a Magic Plan to reduce medical costs after your government outlaws insurance?

 

[Pop23]

If you need a report to figure out why the cost of medicine is so high......

All I asked you was how outlawing health insurance would magically make prices go down. You've done more dancing than the American Ballet Theater, but you haven't answered the question.

You can't. So do some more grands battements. You're really quite good.

Nothing will bring the cost down until the system stopes being raped.

Glad I could help

 

[Conservative65]

Right now there is someone who requires immediate medical care. That care will only be provided for payment. That someone has no money to pay it. You do. Are you not morally obligated to ensure that they receive the care they need?

Right now there are plenty of bleeding heart Liberals who say that people are morally obligated to do it. How many of them are willing to back up those words? I'm guessing none. However, there are plenty, despite their claims on other issues that one person's morals shouldn't be dictated toward another, that will say we are morally bound to do so.