Why I dont post here

[AllieBaba]

Shhhh...don't mention it and maybe we won't be forced to add it to our self-sufficiency and seniors and people with disabilities applications. People already have to identify themselves by race AND ethnicity.

 

[dilloduck]

Israel wouldn't even exist if Europe, to include the UK and the US weren't in such a frenzy to find a place far, far away where they could pigeonhole those "dirty chews". .

The Zionists WANTED Palestine. They weren't banished there.

 

[Yurt]

The Zionists WANTED Palestine. They weren't banished there.

i understand that jews started buying the land as far back as 1870's. the land was considered worthless by arabs/muslims....and has been considered worthless since muhammad was rejected by the jews in jerusalem (about 1400 years ago) and then muhammad had a "divine" thought to now have prayer towards mecca. allah, all knowing....

muslims hate jews

 

[editec]

i understand that jews started buying the land as far back as 1870's.

About 2% of the population of Jerusalem was Jewish before the Zionist movement was ever heard of.

They'd probably been there since the time of Jesus, too.

the land was considered worthless by arabs/muslims

Poppycock. You seem to be trying to support a myth based on the we found a desert and made it a garden myth by making stuff up that sounds plausible to you based on that myth.

The early Zionists pioneers were not fools. They bought aridable land when they could.

Read this account

Pogroms flared up once again in Russia in the first years of the 20th century. In 1903 at Kishinev peasant mobs were incited against Jews after a blood libel. Riots again took place in the wake of Russia's defeat in the Russo-Japanese War and the 1905 Revolution. The occurrence of new pogroms inspired yet another wave of Russian Jews to emigrate. As in the 1880s, most emigrants went to the United States, but a minority went to Palestine. It was this generation that would include founders of the kibbutzim.
Like the members of the First Aliya who came before them, most members of the Second Aliya wanted to be farmers in the Trans-Jordan. Those who would go on to found the kibbutzim first went to a village of the Biluim, Rishon LeZion, to find work there. The founders of the kibbutz were morally appalled by what they saw in the Jewish settlers there "with their Jewish overseers, Arab peasant laborers, and Bedouin guards." They saw the new villages and were reminded of the places they had left in Eastern Europe. Instead of the beginning of a pure Jewish commonwealth, they felt that what they saw recreated the Jewish socioeconomic structure of the Pale of Settlement, where Jews functioned in clean jobs, while other groups did the dirty work.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-Gavron19_12-0>[13]</SUP>
Yossef Baratz, who went on to found the first kibbutz, wrote of his time working at Zikhron Yaakov:




<DL><DD>We were happy enough working on the land, but we knew more and more certainly that the ways of the old settlements were not for us. This was not the way we hoped to settle the country—this old way with Jews on top and Arabs working for them; anyway, we thought that there shouldn't be employers and employed at all. There must be a better way.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-Baratz52_13-0>[14]</SUP> </DD></DL>Though Baratz and other laborers wanted to farm the land themselves, becoming independent farmers was not a realistic option in 1909. As Arthur Ruppin, a proponent of Jewish agricultural colonization of the Trans-Jordan would later say, "The question was not whether group settlement was preferable to individual settlement; it was rather one of either group settlement or no settlement at all."<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-Rayman12_14-0>[15]</SUP>

Ottoman Palestine was a harsh environment, quite unlike the Russian plains the Jewish immigrants were familiar with. The Galilee was swampy, the Judean Hills rocky, and the South of the country, the Negev, was a desert. To make things more challenging, most of the settlers had no prior farming experience. The sanitary conditions were also poor. Malaria was more than a risk, it was nearly a guarantee. Along with malaria, there were typhus and cholera.
In addition to having a difficult climate and relatively infertile soils, Ottoman Palestine was in some ways a lawless place. NomadicBedouins would frequently raid farms and settled areas. Sabotage of irrigation canals and burning of crops were also common. Living collectively was simply the most logical way to be secure in an unwelcoming land.
On top of considerations of safety, there were also those of economic survival. Establishing a new farm in the area was a capital-intensive project; collectively the founders of the kibbutzim had the resources to establish something lasting, while independently they did not.
Finally, the land that was going to be settled by Yossef Baratz and his comrades had been purchased by the greater Jewish community. From around the world, Jews dropped coins into JNF "Blue Boxes" for land purchases in Palestine. Since these efforts were on behalf of all Jews in the area, it would not have made sense for their land purchases to be conveyed to individuals.
In 1909, Baratz, nine other men, and two women established themselves at the southern end of the Sea of Galilee near an Arab village called "Umm Juni." These teenagers had hitherto worked as day laborers draining swamps, as masons, or as hands at the older Jewish settlements. Their dream was now to work for themselves, building up the land. They called their community "KvutzatDegania", after the cereals which they grew there. Their community would grow into the first kibbutz.
The founders of Degania worked backbreaking labor attempting to rebuild what they saw as their ancestral land and to spread the social revolution. One pioneer later said "the body is crushed, the legs fail, the head hurts, the sun burns and weakens." At times half of the kibbutz members could not report for work. Many young men and women left the kibbutz for easier lives in Jewish Trans-Jordan cities or in the Diaspora.
Despite the difficulties, by 1914, Degania had fifty members. Other kibbutzim were founded around the Sea of Galilee and the nearby Jezreel Valley. The founders of Degania themselves soon left Degania to become apostles of agriculture and socialism for newer kibbutzim.

....and has been considered worthless since muhammad was rejected by the jews in jerusalem (about 1400 years ago) and then muhammad had a "divine" thought to now have prayer towards mecca. allah, all knowing....

muslims hate jews

Well...somebody hates somebody, I think.

The minority of very religious Jews managed to live in relative peace with the Moslems in Jerusalem for over a thousand years.

In fact the only time I know that the Jews of Jersalem were molested by religious zealots was when July 15, 1099.

That's when the Crusaders took it over and slaughtered every single Jew and/or Moslem they could get their Christian hands on.

Does that mean Christians hate Jews more than Moselms do, or does it mean that you can't generalize about something so vast as the history of Islam, Christians and the Jews?

 

[AllieBaba]

And at that time, the Muslims were right to hate us.

But they didn't. Their religion has changed RADICALLY since then.

It's a different world now, and we aren't doing that to them. They're attempting to do it to us. But it's okay...because it's THEM instead of US committing atrocities.

 

[editec]

And at that time, the Muslims were right to hate us.

But they didn't. Their religion has changed RADICALLY since then.

It's a different world now, and we aren't doing that to them. They're attempting to do it to us. But it's okay...because it's THEM instead of US committing atrocities.

Yes, whenever I want the scivy on the mindset of about a billion people, you'll be the man I come to for it.

 

[AllieBaba]

I'm not a man. The fact that you've managed to miss that shows that your radar is a little skewed to begin with.

 

[roomy]

What I said was true. When was the last time you saw, Celts, on an application as one of the choices for a race?

Right next to Vikings and just before Jutes, never forget the Jutes

Or could it be that they didn't bother with passports in those days?

 

[Diuretic]

Right next to Vikings and just before Jutes, never forget the Jutes

Or could it be that they didn't bother with passports in those days?

Thankfully someone remembered the Jutes!

No passports, I think the modern descendants of the Jutes hail from Millwall FC supporters club....

 

[Charles_Main]

Thankfully someone remembered the Jutes!

No passports, I think the modern descendants of the Jutes hail from Millwall FC supporters club....

Well at least a couple guys, or gals, on this board have a sense of humor and realize not everything is serious

 

[Rhys]

The Celts

Now will you shut the fuck up you ignorant gobshite?

Ah, that old-fashioned American charm! What a shame we have lost those courtly manners of yours!

That's antique stuff you point me to. Read Stephen Oppenheimer's 'The Origins of the British' to catch up with modern thinking.

 

[Diuretic]

Ah, that old-fashioned American charm! What a shame we have lost those courtly manners of yours!

That's antique stuff you point me to. Read Stephen Oppenheimer's 'The Origins of the British' to catch up with modern thinking.

Purely belter! roomy's a Geordie

 

[Rhys]

The scientific classification homo sapien refers to genus and species, respectively. In simple terms for you, Man is a species of animal, not a race. Race is a further subdivision of humans based on common genetics/traits unique to and used to identify certain groups of people.

I take it your education also does not equip you to even discuss Celts...

People who attempt to villify Isael and/or Jews for having the audacity to demand the right to exist and back it up with force are either ignorant or stupid. Feel free to choose one.

Before you start the wailing and gnashing of teeth why don't you just ask yourself why there had to be a Jewish state to begin with?

Israel wouldn't even exist if Europe, to include the UK and the US weren't in such a frenzy to find a place far, far away where they could pigeonhole those "dirty chews". A great idea for intolerant bigots in the opening years of the 20th century when the world was still a vast place.

I'm only surprised by the calm and decency that most Jews display in the face of hatred based solely on their religion/race. Was I one, I'd be hatin' you haters right back.

Your alleged 'races' have more genetic differences within them than there are between the alleged 'averages' of those alleged races. In fact there are no such things, outside the fantasies of racists. Grow up!

Yes, my education does allow me to discuss 'Celts' without reading up old racist fantasies about these tall/short, fair/dark red-headed people. The only basis for the whole tottery narrative comes from a Roman confusion about where the source of the Danube lay. As I suggested to another grumpy person, you might try reading Stephen Oppenheimer's 'The Origins of the British'. 'Celtic' is, as I think we really agree, is a linguistic term, and should be left as that. Linguistically I am sort-of-Celtic; politically I am a Cymro/British citizen (in official fantasy subject to a Queen of German background); genetically I am, like most British people, closest to the Basques. These various categories should be kept apart and examined individually. Are the Jamaicans German because they speak a Germanic language? Light-skinned and fair and that?

I know perfectly well why there is a Zionist state, thank you: it is because a small minority of the persons-regarded-by-others-as-Jews (whether religious or not) despaired of living as civilized people in a Europe growing less civilized and more hostile daily. They decided to imitate their barbarous neighbours by setting up their own racist state, stealing someone else's country to do it in, and that despairing course is, in their circumstances then, understandable. But for Hitler and the gross failure of the US and the UK to take on the survivors or his murderous career, these fanatics would have remained more obviously the handful of nutty weirdoes they always were, but in the circumstances 'Israel' was at least somewhere to go. It is, of course, as you imply, a big ghetto. You are quite correct in blaming other Europeans for its creation, but it manifestly does not fulfil its purpose: no-one, as I've argued before, is the better or the safer for its existence, and it may yet succeed in reviving the anti-Jewish feeling the Belsen pictures killed stone dead. The sooner it is replaced by a non-racist state with international guarantees, the safer everyone will be.

 

[Rhys]

Purely belter! roomy's a Geordie

Can't be, mun! I was only saying to someone the other day that I'd never met a bad un. Or perhaps he's the only one whose words I can understand? This world is full of mysteries.

 

[roomy]

Can't be, mun! I was only saying to someone the other day that I'd never met a bad un. Or perhaps he's the only one whose words I can understand? This world is full of mysteries.

I certainly am you ignorant gobshite, now belt up you ponce

 

[Diuretic]

This place is full of mysteries Rhys - it's what makes it interesting.

Now I feel like I'm in a episode of "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet"*

*that's a good thing, it was a brilliant programme.

Now I'm going to be stoned for thread drift

 

[Ravi]

I have a question. If Celts aren't considered a "race" and can't be separated out from the Brits, how can Jews be considered a separate race than the Arabs? All these comments about Israel being a racist state make no sense.

 

[Diuretic]

Dunno Ravi. But a question popped into my mind. When did people become "Arabs"? I ask because I don't have a clue.

 

[Ravi]

I don't either since I wasn't around back in the 9th century.

the arabs in antiquity: Their ... - Google Book Search

 

[editec]

Your alleged 'races' have more genetic differences within them than there are between the alleged 'averages' of those alleged races. In fact there are no such things, outside the fantasies of racists. Grow up!

Yes, my education does allow me to discuss 'Celts' without reading up old racist fantasies about these tall/short, fair/dark red-headed people. The only basis for the whole tottery narrative comes from a Roman confusion about where the source of the Danube lay.

I seldom find I have to look a word up, but tottery?

As I suggested to another grumpy person, you might try reading Stephen Oppenheimer's 'The Origins of the British'. 'Celtic' is, as I think we really agree, is a linguistic term, and should be left as that. Linguistically I am sort-of-Celtic; politically I am a Cymro/British citizen (in official fantasy subject to a Queen of German background); genetically I am, like most British people, closest to the Basques. These various categories should be kept apart and examined individually. Are the Jamaicans German because they speak a Germanic language? Light-skinned and fair and that?

It does get confusing, doesn't it?

What is a race? What is a culture? What are "a people"?

It all seems so obvious on its face, but do a little historic/liguistic/athropological investigation, and the those well grounded concepts can be knocked over with a feather.

I know perfectly well why there is a Zionist state, thank you: it is because a small minority of the persons-regarded-by-others-as-Jews (whether religious or not) despaired of living as civilized people in a Europe growing less civilized and more hostile daily.

I'm feeling increasing that way about America, to be frank. (But not Frankish! Nobody likes those froggish Celts)

They decided to imitate their barbarous neighbours by setting up their own racist state, stealing someone else's country to do it in, and that despairing course is, in their circumstances then, understandable.

The poor Jews. We bitch at them when they're too civilized. And then, when they start acting like us, (you know... acting like racist and ethnocentric bullies) we bitch about them acting like NAZIs.

But for Hitler and the gross failure of the US and the UK to take on the survivors or his murderous career, these fanatics would have remained more obviously the handful of nutty weirdoes they always were,

You mean socialist utopians? The early Kibbutzim remind me of the 1970's back-to-earther hippies. Oy, groovy!

but in the circumstances 'Israel' was at least somewhere to go.

Of course those Zionists considered going elsewhere. South America, for example and Africa, too. But they realized that the only place that really had any real estate appeal to the people who'd been toasting " Next year in Jerusalem" for the last thousands years, would be Palestine.

It is, of course, as you imply, a big ghetto. You are quite correct in blaming other Europeans for its creation, but it manifestly does not fulfil its purpose: no-one, as I've argued before, is the better or the safer for its existence, and it may yet succeed in reviving the anti-Jewish feeling the Belsen pictures killed stone dead.

May? I'd have to say it has revived that feeling in many, wouldn't you? If nothing else, the mistakes that Israel has made as it regards their treatment of the Palestinians, gives people already prone to Jew hating an excuse to spew their hateful nonsense behind the cover of their crocodile tears for people they'd probably hate equally, given half a chance...the Palestinians.

The sooner it is replaced by a non-racist state with international guarantees, the safer everyone will be.

From your pen to God's ear.

I'm not really sure that even that would work though.

Not even if every Isreali bought into it.

I suspect that the Arab world has had its fill of international guarantees, given that what that phrase generally means is that the masters of the Western Universe guarantee that they (the Arabs) get screwed.

Trust lost is hard to find.