Why I dont post here

[manifold]

Again, little kids of the US Message Board.

Pay attention to Uncle Joe or you’re not gonna pass your exam:

There's gonna be an exam?

Fuck!

 

[José]

THE JEWISH PEOPLE WILL NEVER ACCEPT A BORDER IN THE MIDDLE OF THEIR HOMELAND AS THE SETTLEMENT ACTIVITY PROVES.

THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WILL NEVER ACCEPT A BORDER IN THE MIDDLE OF THEIR HOMELAND AS THE ENORMOUS SUFFERING THEY HAVE BEEN WILLING TO ENDURE DURING THE LAST 60 YEARS PROVES.

Uncle joe is not talking about history, about ancient israel, past events that don’t matter anymore, etc, etc, etc...

UNCLE JOE IS TALKING ABOUT THE JEWISH NATIONAL IDENTITY AND THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL IDENTITY.

Something that is very much alive today in the hearts of jews and palestinians alike.

PEACE PLANS BASED ON PARTITION IGNORE THE JEWISH AND THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL IDENTIY AND THEREFORE ARE DESTINED TO THE DUSTBIN OF HISTORY EVEN BEFORE BEING CONCEIVED AS THE LAST 60 YEARS HAVE SHOWN US.

The only thing that comes from peace plans that ignore the jewish and the palestinian national identity is hundreds of thousands of dead arabs, jews, not to mention a few thousand american workers turned into ground meat by enraged arabs.

The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and over expecting different results.

Peace plans based on the partition of palestine fit the definition of insanity perfectly.

 

[editec]

Which is why people need to stop using words like "nazi" and "apartheid" and talking about a one-state solution which is never going to happen.

Beyond that, the shape of a two-state soluation is certainly, as Israel's shown, negotiable.

I understand.

And the anti-Semite charge hurled willy-nilly every time you encounter arguments you'd rather ignore, or history you'd like to forget, likewise counter-productive.

 

[editec]

I hereby declare Editec the winner on this thread.

Thanks.

Mention my name to the State Department, would you?

I could use a job.

 

[jillian]

I understand.

And the anti-Semite charge hurled willy-nilly every time you encounter arguments you'd rather ignore, or history you'd like to forget, likewise counter-productive.

Perhaps I've been dealing with this issue longer than you. It's not about disagreeing with me. My best friend on this board and I have disagreed on this issue for 5 years. The difference is, he doesn't liken zionism to racism or nazism or apartheid. Nor does he promote the idea of jews living subjugated to Arabs in a one-state solution.

That's the difference between someone who's concerned about the issue and someone who's hiding their anti-semitism behind some anti-Israel agenda.

So it depends on which side of that line you fall.

 

[editec]

Yeah, but Jillian, that was probably written by a Jew. You do know the Department of State is controlled by Jews, don't you?

Nonsense.

It's controled by Ivy League graduates or the scions of the very well connected. It is the place where especially bright people, often the scions of equally bright people, often end up if they elect government service.

They're right more than they're wrong, but our POTUSs have often ignored their sage advice.

An important issue is the distinction between legitimate criticism of policies and practices of the State of Israel, and commentary that assumes an anti-Semitic character.

Right on.

Some of us on this board seem to think that we can hide behind the smokescreen of legitimate complaints and resonable debates about Isreal/Palestinian issue to spew the Jew hating venon poisoning our hearts.

I ain't buying into that passive-aggressive bullshit any more than Jillian is, boys.

No more than I'm going to accept that every complaint, however justified by facts, or any review of history of the region that the Isreali partisans object to makes one an anti-Semite.

Many of us simply try to write around this idiotic crap because the issue is too important to leave it to you partisans.

 

[jillian]

Nonsense.

It's controled by Ivy League graduates or the scions of the very well connected. It is the place where especially bright people, often the scions of equally bright people, often end up if they elect government service.

They're right more than they're wrong, but our POTUSs have often ignored their sage advice.



Right on.

Some of us on this board seem to think that we can hide behind the smokescreen of legitimate complaints and resonable debates about Isreal/Palestinian issue to spew the Jew hating venon poisoning our hearts.

I ain't buying into that passive-aggressive bullshit any more than Jillian is, boys.

No more than I'm going to accept that every complaint, however justified by facts, or any review of history of the region that the Isreali partisans object to makes one an anti-Semite.

Many of us simply try to write around this idiotic crap because the issue is too important to leave it to you partisans.

I suspect that if you hadn't pigeon-holed me as accepting every single thing Israel ever did, we might have found a place of agreement on this issue or at least civil discussion. I had a lot to say, particularly when Sharon was in charge (although he moderated his views at the end). But with the current leadership, the same arguments don't apply. They certainly didn't apply when Rabin was in charge.

I just have issue with people who think they can take positions against Israel that end up with dead or subjugated Jews. It's kind of like when a couple is divorced... they shouldn't live together and the house should be partitioned.

 

[Shogun]

Hey Editic!

I posted some quotes for you in another thread where you said that segregation is ONLY natural... Care to comment on your thurmon-esqu approach? I bet insinuating antisemtism will make your position less in common with ole Stroms...

 

[editec]

Perhaps I've been dealing with this issue longer than you.

I kinda fucking doubt that, Jill.

It's not about disagreeing with me.

No? Fooled me, then.

My best friend on this board and I have disagreed on this issue for 5 years. The difference is, he doesn't liken zionism to racism or nazism or apartheid.

Zionism is a very large bag. Some Zionists are racists, Jill. Pretending that isn't true simply undermines your credibility.

Now comparing Zionists to NAZIs is totally over the top, I agree with that.. as do many people here who are not sympathetic to (esp) AMERICAN Zionists.

But as to the aparthied charge?

Well that's more complex, isn't it? Because Isreal DOES have some Palestinians who have full rights, and then too it does have internally displaced Arabs with few rights; plus Arabs living in shitholes where having a life is fucking impossiblel and it Isreal ALSO continues to not recognize the deeds of Isreali citizens of Arab descent who had clear titles (recognized by the British mandate) to land that was taken by force of arms from ARAB CIVILIANS.

So there are elements of the current system which are aparthied-like, and the analogy does have some validity, too.

Nor does he promote the idea of jews living subjugated to Arabs in a one-state solution.

Understood. But you apparently have no problem (at least, I have yet to note your objections if you have them) to Arabs who are subjected to Israel's less than tender mercies under IDF military dictatorship and occupation, or your objections to Isreali settlements in PA land seem remarkably absent from these discussions, too.

That's the difference between someone who's concerned about the issue and someone who's hiding their anti-semitism behind some anti-Israel agenda.

No shit.

Hopefully, you'll read what people are actually writing instead of assuming that because somebody wrote something you object to you'll posit that they must therefore also believe bla bla bla like you have done to me, and I note to others on many occassions, too.

So it depends on which side of that line you fall.

No, it does not.

Truth is truth even if we don't want it to be.

Attacking as anti-Semite or racist, every person who brings irrefuteable facts to the discussion that you'd rather not hear IS not excused (by honest players, at least) just because you support Israel's right to exist.

Truth telling is not racism, even if you think charging people as such will shut them up.

If someone is a racist?

We'll know it without you having to point it out to us.

Stick to the issue and let these crypto-nazi scum hang themselves in the court of public opinion.

 

[Gunny]

There were never, as a matter of fact, any people called 'Celts' anywhere in Britain until the late seventeenth Century, when Lhuyd borrowed this term to cover linguistic resemblances between the western peoples, and Oppenheimer - who seems to be about the best historical geneticist around - reckons the 'Anglo-Saxon' contribution to the population to be about five per cent. Each of the Archipelago countries has a majority of people whose genetic heritage is the same as the modern Basques, as a matter of fact. It all goes to show how dubious is any argument based on current fantasies about the past (for my money, the majority of the current Jewish population of occupied Palestine is probably Khazar in its distant origins, but I'm no geneticist, and who cares?).
One of the worst things about the zionists is the way that they have tried to implicate the vast mass of decent Jewish people in their bloody atrocities, and the worst of all is the way they lie and lie and lie about the possiblities of a settlement given the most minimal degree of sincerity and decency on their side. Instead we have the standard mean-souled racist spite. What is Jewish about that?

The people we now refer to as Celts, as a people did in fact exist since at least the Iron Age in Europe (approx1200-500 BC). Your statement is technically correct in that the term "celt" is attributed to Lhuyd's writings in 1707. However, your statement also implies that the race of people now labelled Celts did not exist.

And just to take a short jab, you anti-Israel/Arab apologist folk need to get a clue. I've never seen so much intelligence wrapped around an argument that when you clear away all the damned chaff amounts to 100% pure, Grade A bullshit.

 

[jillian]

Editec:

Do you doubt that... I figure you're wrong, but it makes no matter.

Where did I say no zionists are racists? I said zionism is NOT racism.... and it isn't. I figure you're smart enough to tell the difference, as can I.

And you can keep insulting me or not...

You talk about the displaced Arabs... my people were displaced from Belarus. My great grandmother thought the pogroms sucked. Happens... here they chose to leave because they followed the advice of their nazi grand mufti of jerusalem. silly, perhaps, but that's what happened. What also happened is they attacked the Israeli's and lost. People who lose in battle get screwed sometimes. But even there, I've never said they shoulldn't have a country. It just can't be in Israel. Don't you think that's fair?

There's a reason Jordan and Egypt didn't let them in...

so you can keep snotting off to me and keep insulting me, but like I said, I know the realistic difference between a one and two state solution and the people who support one over the other.

And the truth of THAT is truth whether YOU like it or not and want to shut up anyone who sees that.

Cheers.

 

[Gunny]

Folks, I LOVE history.

And history is a tool that can help us understand how we got where we are.

But sometimes history can be a roadblock to problem solving because we cannot forget it and some of us cannot forgive it..

It doesn't matter if ancient Isreal existed

It doesn't matter that the Romans controlled Palestine

It doesn't matter that the Christian romans controlled Palestine

It doesn't matter that the various Arab or Turk Islamic empires controlled it either.

It doesn't matter that the British had no right to give Zionists the go ahead to move to Palestine.

It doesn't matter that Palestinians were driven out of their homes in the civil war that created Israel.

It doesn't matter that the fledgling state of Israel was attacked

All that matters NOW is the conditions on the ground NOW.

Can we find a single state or two state solution?

I cannot blame Israelis for rejecting the single state solution.

They know that they'd be outnumbers outvoted and the character of the nation would change to something they could not stand.

I cannot blame the Palestinians for rejecting the laughable two state solution as currently designed, either.

The land they are ceeded is NOT a viable land economically, It would makes them forever beholden to other nations for water, and its economic stability, too.

FWIW the original returning Jewish settlers had NO PLANS to eject the Palestinians. In fact there was a time when they lived in peace. When the Jews who returned BOUGHT the land and worked it and hired Palestinains to work along side of them.

But the decision was made, when the Jews of Palestine saw that there would be enormous numbers of Jewish refugees, to make room for the Jews, and that really meant displacing the Arabs.

Hence the disaster of 1948,

The Arab states overreaction to the existence of Isreal, and the susequent eviction or abandonment of and by the Palestinians leave us with the problem of millions of displaced Palestinians who are now unwelcome in their homeland.

Who do I blame?

I blame the British, the Zionists, the Palestinians and the Arab states that tried to drive the Jews into the sea, too.

I blame everybody involved and I sympathize with everybody involved EXCEPT the Brits and the Arab states which attacked the feldgling nation of Israel.

I blame the ethnocentists and I blame the hotheads and terrorists who won't back down and seek a viable compromise that works for EVERYONE.

It's a complex situation with penty of guilt and credit to go around..

But Isreal exists today, and it is not going away.

And the Palestinian people exist today, and they aren't going away, either.

It really is up to those people to solve this problem.

Excellent post.

 

[Ravi]

Nonsense.

It's controled by Ivy League graduates or the scions of the very well connected. It is the place where especially bright people, often the scions of equally bright people, often end up if they elect government service.

They're right more than they're wrong, but our POTUSs have often ignored their sage advice.



Right on.

Some of us on this board seem to think that we can hide behind the smokescreen of legitimate complaints and resonable debates about Isreal/Palestinian issue to spew the Jew hating venon poisoning our hearts.

I ain't buying into that passive-aggressive bullshit any more than Jillian is, boys.

No more than I'm going to accept that every complaint, however justified by facts, or any review of history of the region that the Isreali partisans object to makes one an anti-Semite.

Many of us simply try to write around this idiotic crap because the issue is too important to leave it to you partisans.

Editec, I'm sorry you couldn't see the sarcasm dripping off of that post.

 

[Gunny]

Originally Posted by jillian
Perhaps I've been dealing with this issue longer than you.

I kinda fucking doubt that, Jill.

 

[jillian]

yeah... I know. lol...

 

[Rhys]

The people we now refer to as Celts, as a people did in fact exist since at least the Iron Age in Europe (approx1200-500 BC). Your statement is technically correct in that the term "celt" is attributed to Lhuyd's writings in 1707. However, your statement also implies that the race of people now labelled Celts did not exist.

And just to take a short jab, you anti-Israel/Arab apologist folk need to get a clue. I've never seen so much intelligence wrapped around an argument that when you clear away all the damned chaff amounts to 100% pure, Grade A bullshit.

There is no 'race' of people called Celts, or any other 'race' but the human, so that little bit is pointless. There were some people called Celts in the south of France in Roman times, I believe. They did not visit Britain. The people in Britain were British, as they had been since the ice withdrew.

I'm afraid my education doesn't equip me to translate your second paragraph into English. It sounds unpleasant, however.

 

[roomy]

There is no 'race' of people called Celts, or any other 'race' but the human, so that little bit is pointless. There were some people called Celts in the south of France in Roman times, I believe. They did not visit Britain. The people in Britain were British, as they had been since the ice withdrew.

I'm afraid my education doesn't equip me to translate your second paragraph into English. It sounds unpleasant, however.

The Celts

Now will you shut the fuck up you ignorant gobshite?

 

[Charles_Main]

The Celts

Now will you shut the fuck up you ignorant gobshite?

I guess the question is, are the Celts a race or an ethnic group with in a race. When checking a box on an application about your race, have you ever seen "Celt" as one of the options? or do the Celts simply check caucasian?

 

[Gunny]

There is no 'race' of people called Celts, or any other 'race' but the human, so that little bit is pointless. There were some people called Celts in the south of France in Roman times, I believe. They did not visit Britain. The people in Britain were British, as they had been since the ice withdrew.

I'm afraid my education doesn't equip me to translate your second paragraph into English. It sounds unpleasant, however.

Another wannabe-intellectual genius, huh? Self-proclaimed, no doubt.

Your education seems to be rather lacking.

The scientific classification homo sapien refers to genus and species, respectively. In simple terms for you, Man is a species of animal, not a race. Race is a further subdivision of humans based on common genetics/traits unique to and used to identify certain groups of people.

I take it your education also does not equip you to even discuss Celts, based on your ignorant statement. Educating yourself is but a few clicks away:

Celtic Europe

Celtic History

Ancient celtic history

A little help with my last statement since complex sentences appear a bit much for you ...

People who attempt to villify Isael and/or Jews for having the audacity to demand the right to exist and back it up with force are either ignorant or stupid. Feel free to choose one.

Before you start the wailing and gnashing of teeth why don't you just ask yourself why there had to be a Jewish state to begin with?

Israel wouldn't even exist if Europe, to include the UK and the US weren't in such a frenzy to find a place far, far away where they could pigeonhole those "dirty chews". A great idea for intolerant bigots in the opening years of the 20th century when the world was still a vast place.

I'm only surprised by the calm and decency that most Jews display in the face of hatred based solely on their religion/race. Was I one, I'd be hatin' you haters right back.

 

[Charles_Main]

Another wannabe-intellectual genius, huh? Self-proclaimed, no doubt.

Your education seems to be rather lacking.

The scientific classification homo sapien refers to genus and species, respectively. In simple terms for you, Man is a species of animal, not a race. Race is a further subdivision of humans based on common genetics/traits unique to and used to identify certain groups of people.

I take it your education also does not equip you to even discuss Celts, based on your ignorant statement. Educating yourself is but a few clicks away:

Celtic Europe

Celtic History

Ancient celtic history

A little help with my last statement since complex sentences appear a bit much for you ...

People who attempt to villify Isael and/or Jews for having the audacity to demand the right to exist and back it up with force are either ignorant or stupid. Feel free to choose one.

Before you start the wailing and gnashing of teeth why don't you just ask yourself why there had to be a Jewish state to begin with?

Israel wouldn't even exist if Europe, to include the UK and the US weren't in such a frenzy to find a place far, far away where they could pigeonhole those "dirty chews". A great idea for intolerant bigots in the opening years of the 20th century when the world was still a vast place.

I'm only surprised by the calm and decency that most Jews display in the face of hatred based solely on their religion/race. Was I one, I'd be hatin' you haters right back.

What I said was true. When was the last time you saw, Celts, on an application as one of the choices for a race?