Why I dont post here

[editec]

What I’m saying is that no ethnic group has the right to deny another racial group their right to live in their historical homeland.

The right? What right have I to live in the USA, then?

I’m all for protecting the jewish people against ethnic discrimination, editec, but keeping the native people of Palestine corralled on “arab reservations” is not the right way to go about it.

"not the right way" as in it's immoral, or "not the right way" as in ineffective?

If the price to be paid for the safety of the jewish people is the discrimination of the arab people of Palestine then you might just as well join the KKK.

But thus far, you have made no suggestion as it regards Israel, which would have an outcome that doesn't lead to the end of Israel and probably the slaughter of Israelis by the Palestinians seeking revenge.

And that, I think, is what is driving Jillian a tad nuts. Nobody is acknowledging the reality that exists right now.

It is all very well and good to come to the conclusion that the Palestians are getting screwed and that the legal or moral arguments for the creation of Israel are dubious.

History shows those of us who look at it honestly that that is the case.

But then, too history shows us that is the case in the history of damned near every nation in existence, doesn't it?

That is certainly the case in the development of the United States, for example. We did most definitely descriminate agains the Indians for 400 years and counting, agreed?

But Israel exists as a state NOW, and the people there have to find a solution that works, and thus far, you have not found that path to making that happen, and neither have I.

DEMANDING that the Israelis MUST BE MORE MORAL than every other nation on earth really is a not very good argument, I think.

Expecting Israel to commit national suicide because their nation exists based on land theft isn't a very good argument, either.

Now, remember, I totally agree that Israel, like most nations, STOLE ITS LAND and SCREWED THE ORGINAL INHABITANTS, TOO. (I say this so that you don't try to give me a history lesson. I know my history)

But those injustices are not good arguments for national suicide.

I'm not about to allow an Amerinidan to kill me and my family and to dissolve the US, now, because we screwed the AmerIndians.

Are you?

 

[Reality]

7th Century BC? Really? Interesting...

then how do you explain the occupation by the Romans, the existence of the San Hedrin, and the rise of Jesus and Christianity 700 years later.

Oh right, you couldn't using your incorrect statements.

Learn your history.

Under the Romans... isn't that one of the anti-Arab self-determination talking points? There was never an Arab administration. Well there hasn't been a Jewish administration for 2500 years. Thats not a right for Jews of today to colonize against the will of the population.

 

[Reality]

not sure what you are asking.

Its a reference to your clear bias on the topic. Its a tactic of the strong, whomever they are, used against the weak.

 

[Reality]

Now you’ve touched one of the crucial issues of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, editec.

How to create a non confessional, democratic state in Palestine without turning the Palestinian people into the oppressors of their former oppressors?

No one in his right mind wants to see jewish soldiers suddenly opening the gates and allowing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians into Israel.

We all know this East/West Germany scenario is totally unrealistic after 60 years of ethnic supremacism in Palestine.

The peaceful dismantlement of Palestine will require the establishment of an international protectorate in Palestine where foreign troops will guarantee the safety of both ethnic groups.

The absolute requirement to begin the process of democratisation of Palestine would be the complete dismantling of all fundamentalist political parties and groups, jewish and arab alike, since they all preach racial supremacism. Only parties promoting racial equality and tolerance would be allowed.

Before the new state begins to allow palestinian families to settle in Western Palestine, the jewish and arab population will have to be bombarded by a massive propaganda campaign emphasising racial tolerance, secularism, democracy, civic values etc, etc, etc...

In addition to this, it would be necessary to create national commisions following the model of the south african “Truth and Reconciliation Commision” to promote forgiveness and reconciliation between the two ethnic groups.

The settlement of palestinian families in Western Palestine and jewish families in Eastern Palestine will have to be a gradual and orderly process, under international control, in order to avoid the same ethnic strife that started this whole conflict more than half a century ago.

Whenever jewish and palestinian individuals/families manifest the desire to live in what was formerly known as Israel, West Bank and Gaza, the authorities will conduct a thorough background check to see if they have even the slightest connection with disbanded fundamentalist movements. Any family with this kind of past connections would have to undergo additional studies on civic values and would be closely monitored by the authorities.

Palestine would be governed by a coalition government formed by an equal number of jewish and palestinian leaders and all major decisions at the federal level would have to be approved by the international community.

After many years (or maybe even decades) of healing and reconciliation between the two ethnic groups, the dismantlement of the international protectorate could be considered and would only be implemented after an unanimous decision of all the leaders of the jewish and arab communities and under the explicit condition that it would be immediately reinstated at the request of any ethnic group.

This international protectorate would always have the safety of the jewish population as an overriding priority, to which everything else, including the palestinian right of return would be subordinated.

Some elements of your thoughts sound much like Taif.

 

[dilloduck]

The right? What right have I to live in the USA, then?



"not the right way" as in it's immoral, or "not the right way" as in ineffective?





But thus far, you have made no suggestion as it regards Israel, which would have an outcome that doesn't lead to the end of Israel and probably the slaughter of Israelis by the Palestinians seeking revenge.

And that, I think, is what is driving Jillian a tad nuts. Nobody is acknowledging the reality that exists right now.

It is all very well and good to come to the conclusion that the Palestians are getting screwed and that the legal or moral arguments for the creation of Israel are dubious.

History shows those of us who look at it honestly that that is the case.

But then, too history shows us that is the case in the history of damned near every nation in existence, doesn't it?

That is certainly the case in the development of the United States, for example. We did most definitely descriminate agains the Indians for 400 years and counting, agreed?

But Israel exists as a state NOW, and the people there have to find a solution that works, and thus far, you have not found that path to making that happen, and neither have I.

DEMANDING that the Israelis MUST BE MORE MORAL than every other nation on earth really is a very good argument, I think.

Expecting Israel to commit national suicide because their nation exists based on land theft isn't a very good argument, either.

Now, remember, I totally agree that Israel, like most nations, STOLE ITS LAND and SCREWED THE ORGINAL INHABITANTS, TOO. (I say this so that you don't try to give me a history lesson. I know my history)

But those injustices are not good arguments for national suicide.

I'm not about to allow an Amerinidan to kill me and my family and to dissolve the US, now, because we screwed the AmerIndians.

Are you?

ie---you can justify any behavior by claiming it's in the interest of national security ? Maybe if countries would just admit they treat people like shit because they are afraid of being scalped we would have a great starting point to work from.

 

[editec]

Originally Posted by José

Now you’ve touched one of the crucial issues of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, editec.

How to create a non confessional, democratic state in Palestine without turning the Palestinian people into the oppressors of their former oppressors?

Yes, this is the solution we should ALL be seeking.

No one in his right mind wants to see jewish soldiers suddenly opening the gates and allowing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians into Israel.

We all know this East/West Germany scenario is totally unrealistic after 60 years of ethnic supremacism in Palestine.

Oh, good, You aren't nuts.

The peaceful dismantlement of Palestine will require the establishment of an international protectorate in Palestine where foreign troops will guarantee the safety of both ethnic groups.

Trying to convince the Israelis that they can depend on international protection sort of flew out the window during the years 1933 -1945, sport

The absolute requirement to begin the process of democratisation of Palestine would be the complete dismantling of all fundamentalist political parties and groups, jewish and arab alike, since they all preach racial supremacism. Only parties promoting racial equality and tolerance would be allowed.

I doubt you'll be able to get either the Jews or the Arabs to agree to international control of the land. the BRITISH tried that and filed miserable, already, remember?

Before the new state begins to allow palestinian families to settle in Western Palestine, the jewish and arab population will have to be bombarded by a massive propaganda campaign emphasising racial tolerance, secularism, democracy, civic values etc, etc, etc...

Good idea, that won't work.

In addition to this, it would be necessary to create national commisions following the model of the south african “Truth and Reconciliation Commision” to promote forgiveness and reconciliation between the two ethnic groups.

The settlement of palestinian families in Western Palestine and jewish families in Eastern Palestine will have to be a gradual and orderly process, under international control, in order to avoid the same ethnic strife that started this whole conflict more than half a century ago.

Whenever jewish and palestinian individuals/families manifest the desire to live in what was formerly known as Israel, West Bank and Gaza, the authorities will conduct a thorough background check to see if they have even the slightest connection with disbanded fundamentalist movements. Any family with this kind of past connections would have to undergo additional studies on civic values and would be closely monitored by the authorities.

Palestine would be governed by a coalition government formed by an equal number of jewish and palestinian leaders and all major decisions at the federal level would have to be approved by the international community.

After many years (or maybe even decades) of healing and reconciliation between the two ethnic groups, the dismantlement of the international protectorate could be considered and would only be implemented after an unanimous decision of all the leaders of the jewish and arab communities and under the explicit condition that it would be immediately reinstated at the request of any ethnic group.

This international protectorate would always have the safety of the jewish population as an overriding priority, to which everything else, including the palestinian right of return would be subordinated.

Okay, I get it now.

Your plans are moral, they are good and they won't work.

Want to know why?

Because people are not moral, they are not good, and they will not work for justice, when they still think they can get something better than justice.

 

[editec]

ie---you can justify any behavior by claiming it's in the interest of national security ? Maybe if countries would just admit they treat people like shit because they are afraid of being scalped we would have a great starting point to work from.

I just did.

Okay, what now?

 

[dilloduck]

I just did.

Okay, what now?

You admitting it and COUNTRIES admitting a two different things dont you think ?

 

[editec]

You admitting it and COUNTRIES admitting a two different things dont you think ?

Yes it is.

I take no responsibility for countries (or the partisans who love them) which make shit up to excuse their actions.

 

[Shogun]

It's hilarious that the same people who insist that a single state solution will never work have been so guided by the phrase, "If you will it, it is no dream". Lot's of people thought the same thing about the creation of Israel. It's not so much that it cant happen, you just don't want it to. therein lies your rub.

 

[Foxfyre]

In the context, that is a remarkable statement. Having read this long correspondence as carefully as I can, I'd say that Shogun is not only reasonable but knows how to construct an argument, as does José, whereas once Jillian has stuttered out the bit about 'Auntie C might', that's her finished. It might have been possible to make some sort of argument for a zionist state within Palestine if the zionists hadn't denied not only the rights but the existence of the Palestinians, hadn't lied themselves blue in the face, never apologised for even the worst of their racist atrocities and, most of all, always attacked the accuser rather than answer the accusation. It is just like the stalinists - once you have got used to suppressing criticism (using the GPU or AIPAC) you lose the trick of democratic argument and can merely shout personal abuse and try to get the critic silenced. Pity. Back in the days when I supported zionism I used to be able to do better than that, however poor the argument. Then I met some Palestinians!

My comment was not directed at opposing points of view nor will you ever find a post of mind complaining about anybody presenting an argument different or opposing or rebutting mine. My comment was directed at a member who had abandoned any attempt to make a reasoned argument but rather resorted to angry ad hominem snipes calling members by name. Whenever somebody is so out of ammunition that ad hominem slurs is all he or she has left, in my opinion he or she loses the debate.

Shogun, however unsupportable or defensible most of his argument is, does hang in there like a terrior. But since he has also resorted to ad hominem barbs in the course of this debate, I knew he was out of real ammo many pages before my post that you are objecting to. He got dragged into my post because the member I was referencing chose to intentionally ally himself with Shogun.

For the record, I personally know more Palestinians than I know Israelis. They are pleasant, agreeable people. Their leadership however remains on the record as denying Israel's right to exist and pledging to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. Those former Palestinian Arabs who accepted Israel--between 1 and 2 million of them in that tiny country--happily prosper there as full Israeli citizens with all rights enjoyed by Israeli citizens.

At such time as the non-Israeli Palestinians agree that Israel has a right to exist, denounce and punish terrorist activity directed at Israel, and pledge to be good neighbors to Israel, and Israel does not reciprocate by becoming good neighbors to the Palestinians, then and only then will I take the Palestinians' side. Until then, Israel has every right to use whatever means is necessary to defend its people against people attempting to kill, maim, destroy, and drive them out.

The day you cannot let your children out of your sight for fear that they will be kidnapped or firebombed or hit by a randomly fired rocket intended to kill or maim them, you might rethink your position on this.

 

[Reality]

My comment was not directed at opposing points of view nor will you ever find a post of mind complaining about anybody presenting an argument different or opposing or rebutting mine. My comment was directed at a member who had abandoned any attempt to make a reasoned argument but rather resorted to angry ad hominem snipes calling members by name. Whenever somebody is so out of ammunition that ad hominem slurs is all he or she has left, in my opinion he or she loses the debate.

Well said!

Their leadership however remains on the record as denying Israel's right to exist and pledging to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth.

Arafat exchanged letters of acknowledgeable with Rabin. Abass was elected by the majority of the Palestinian people on the basis of a two state solution plan.

At such time as the non-Israeli Palestinians agree that Israel has a right to exist, denounce and punish terrorist activity directed at Israel, and pledge to be good neighbors to Israel, and Israel does not reciprocate by becoming good neighbors to the Palestinians, then and only then will I take the Palestinians' side. Until then, Israel has every right to use whatever means is necessary to defend its people against people attempting to kill, maim, destroy, and drive them out.

The day you cannot let your children out of your sight for fear that they will be kidnapped or firebombed or hit by a randomly fired rocket intended to kill or maim them, you might rethink your position on this.

Why don't you think Palestinians live with the same daily terror as Israelis?

 

[Shogun]

UNSUPPORTABLE? Indeed, IM the one posted evidence, yo. what the hell have you posted? I love how you people seem to think that your dour, baseless opinions mean anything while I have been routinely reminding you of every other similar example of social repression that causes your half assed "apples and oranges" reply. I stick around because you have yet to offer anything besides, "cant happen", "antisemite" and "Orchard excuses". You ignore the fact of Nelson's terrorism, native American scalping, irish bombing, etc etc and pretend that israel is some mythical culture that is impervious to historic reflection. Do I call people names? Sure. Does this make your input of stricly opinons any LESS limp in this debate? nope. If you had a point to offer you'd have done so by now. As it is, youd rather get wrapped up in my fun little game of lampooning your baseless opinions and hoping that a scarlet letter is a good substitute for actual reasons to support an ethnic standard in a supposedly western nation. if you cant similarly tell me that you support a perpetuated white power structure in the US then you have no grounds to support a yiddish one in israel without racism. Consistency is a bitch even if your messiah was jewish.

 

[Rhys]

For the record, I personally know more Palestinians than I know Israelis. They are pleasant, agreeable people. Their leadership however remains on the record as denying Israel's right to exist and pledging to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. Those former Palestinian Arabs who accepted Israel--between 1 and 2 million of them in that tiny country--happily prosper there as full Israeli citizens with all rights enjoyed by Israeli citizens.

At such time as the non-Israeli Palestinians agree that Israel has a right to exist, denounce and punish terrorist activity directed at Israel, and pledge to be good neighbors to Israel, and Israel does not reciprocate by becoming good neighbors to the Palestinians, then and only then will I take the Palestinians' side. Until then, Israel has every right to use whatever means is necessary to defend its people against people attempting to kill, maim, destroy, and drive them out.

The day you cannot let your children out of your sight for fear that they will be kidnapped or firebombed or hit by a randomly fired rocket intended to kill or maim them, you might rethink your position on this.

The zionists have, since 2000, killed 982 Palestinian children to 118 settler children killed. Why has 'Israel' the right to exist, any more than South africa under the Nationalists, the current regime in Sudan, Chinese control of
Tibet or - come to that - Nazi Germany? The people have the right to exist, the racist government not. The terrorist activity in Palestine comes from the colonists, who hugely outdo the Resistance in frightfulness, and constantly thieve Palestinian property.

Obviously nobody really intends to wipe anyone of the face of the earth, and the incredibly long-suffering Palestinians will doubtless come to some agreement when they are allowed to return to their property and be compensated for the gruesome crimes of the occupation authorities.

If someone threw you out of your country and killed your relatives you would doubtless, like the rest of you saintly Americans, give up your holy guns and go quietly to Mexico or Canada to live on hay. We nasty rough outsiders are different. If someone stole my country, renamed it Lower Slobovia and settled it with people from Naples on the grounds that it once belonged to the Roman Empire, I should fight , as would any normal person. The idea that zionist settlers are somehow more valuable than native people is straight racism, surely?

 

[José]

Originally posted by Foxfyre
My comment was directed at a member who had abandoned any attempt to make a reasoned argument but rather resorted to angry ad hominem snipes calling members by name.

Did I really abandon any attempt to make a reasoned argument?

And this is coming from the guy who wasn’t able to come up with a single counter argument to my idea of an international protectorate in Palestine!!!

Editec considered my plan well-intentioned but doomed to fail due to human nature.

Reality compared with the Lebanese peace process (Taif accords).

What about Foxfyre’s input??

Nothing, zero, zip, nada!!

Come on, Foxfyre...

Don’t be a sore loser, swallow your pride and recognise what the entire board already knows:

JOSÉ BLEW UP YOUR ASS REAL GOOD!!!!!

 

[Foxfyre]

Well said!?

Well thank you, especially after you gave me negative rep claiming it dishonest when I objected to being criticized for saying the exact same thing.

Arafat exchanged letters of acknowledgeable with Rabin. Abass was elected by the majority of the Palestinian people on the basis of a two state solution plan.

The original UN resolution was based on a two state solution plan which the Palestinians rejected. As they have rejected every subsequent negotiation to solve the problem. Arafat gave it lip service but he never asked for ratification from his Fatah Party nor did he make any effort to disband or stand down the PLO and the periodic terrorist attacks it carried out with deadly regularity. Arafat never wanted peace with Israel, but he was willing to work for leverage to gain advantage.

Why don't you think Palestinians live with the same daily terror as Israelis

Because there is zero - nada - zilch record of the Israelis EVER attacking the Palestinians or anybody else without provocation. The closest to it was the Israeli airforce taking out Saddam Hussein's nuclear facility after Saddam had promised to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. Israel may have to do that with Iran's nuclear facility for the same reason. Otherwise Israel has NEVER attacked anybody except in retaliation for attacks on Israelis in Israel or when those pledged to exterminate Israel were amassing attack forces on Israel's borders.

Palestinians know darn well that if they don't harrass Israel, they have absolutely nothing to fear from Israel in any way. They choose to continue harrassment and then claim victimhood that they know will be believed by those who operate from kneejerk emotionalism and/or hatred of Israel and/or the USA. Further their terrorists intentionally place their rocket launchers and hide their munitions among women and children to ensure that any retaliation from Israel will likely injure or kill women and children. This gives the noble Palestinians more ammunition to use to gain that sympathy.

 

[José]

Waiting for the token, empty, face-saving comment on the idea I proposed.

 

[Shogun]

Israel Police arrest settlers for assault on Palestinian farmers


Police said after the attack they were also investigating whether the footage was staged by local Palestinians.



Israel Police arrest settlers for assault on Palestinian farmers - Haaretz - Israel News



yeaaa... nothing to fear from israelis indeed..



hey look, another round of evidence, Fox!

 

[editec]

my idea of an international protectorate in Palestine!!!

Editec considered my plan well-intentioned but doomed to fail due to human nature.

Reality compared with the Lebanese peace process (Taif accords).

What about Foxfyre’s input??

Nothing, zero, zip, nada!!

Come on, Foxfyre...

Don’t be a sore loser, swallow your pride and recognise what the entire board already knows:

JOSÉ BLEW UP YOUR ASS REAL GOOD!!!!!

Hey, Jose, at least you're thinking about finding solutions.

Most people here are content getting up on their high horses so they can tell other people that they're racists.

They don't want peace, they want strife.

And that is why I say your plan will not work incidently

Too damned many Zionists, and too damned many Arabists like things the way they are. Peacekeeping only works when enough people truly want peace.

It took ~ what? ~ about 80 years for the Irish and the Scots colonialists to finally realize that they weren't going to win peace in Northern Ireland and they quashed their respective hotheads to knock it the hell off?

It could take Israelites and Palestinians that long to find their peace, too.

 

[Epsilon Delta]

Describing the security fence as "the wall of death," the report states: "The 700-kilometer fence/wall that Israel is building through the West Bank, from north to south and through parts of Jerusalem, is causing massive long-term damage to Palestinian life and is undermining the ability of those living in dozens of villages and communities to realize a wide range of their human rights."

In the report, Amnesty lists seven "recommendations" for the Israeli government, which include calls to "end the regime of closures in its current form, as well as other forms of restrictions on freedom of movement of people and goods, that result in collective punishment... Stop the construction of the fence/wall inside the West Bank, including East Jerusalem..." and to "stop immediately the destruction of houses, land, and other properties without absolute military necessity as prescribed by international humanitarian law."

Amnesty International: Israel destroying hope of Palestinians - Israel News, Ynetnews

Interview included, a pretty good one, and it's from a Jewish site.