Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[Porter Rockwell]

The tradition in the US is a bit different than most countries. Here we place a primacy on individual rights. Instead of asking why the will of individual property owners should override that of the border patrol, we first as the converse - why should the will of the border patrol override that of individual property owners?

Your use of the term "frontlines" suggests you buy into the war justification, which I find ridiculous.

Except they are on the frontlines. They have guns, they have taken casualties and the people trying to cross illegally are often brutalized by coyotes and drug cartel members. The wall IMO is necessary. You are of course free to disagree, it is a free country. And they are SMEs. If a doctor told you that you needed surgery would you dismiss his opinion because others disagree with it? He is the expert for a reason. Border Patrol agents are experts in border security and they are pleading for a wall. You show a lot of hubris ignoring their please. Unfortunate.

Did it ever occur to you that everybody wants things to make their job easier? Years ago I worked in a warehouse. The workers said they needed air conditioning in order to be as productive as management wanted.

The problem was putting AC in a warehouse would not work and it would have the energy bill sucking up a significant portion of the company's profits.

We are NOT talking border security with the wall. What you're talking about is an attempt to stop American citizens and the people from south of the border from engaging in mutually beneficial relationships. You'd be better served with some regulation. No surgeon ever recommended surgery for a runny nose.

We tried laws, we tried regulation, we tried more border patrol agents, and these people still come here against our wishes. Now we need more barriers to stop them from getting in.


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

We have NEVER tried regulation. You are operating on laws that are in excess of FIFTY years old and don't even apply to the situation.

The fact that you don't understand we are NOT going to keep people out discredits anything you say on this board. Whether we like it or not, wall or no wall, they will come. BTW, in view of what I just told you, there is a question you should ask in light of my response. Surely, you are not so much of a dullard that you don't know what that question is.

If that seems unfair to you, it's the treatment I got from your side. Then, again, you have only assumed things; you never ASK.

1986 regulation was tried to deny their ability to work here. Penalized businesses for hiring them. The I-9 form. They skirted this law by ignoring forged ids. A network was set up to give fake ids to illegals. When caught workers get deported and come right back

That wasn't regulation, but unconstitutional control. Here is what is wrong with what happened there:

The IRS send out a form with an OMB number on it (that's the Office of Management and Budget.) That form told employers by what authority the government was "requiring" compliance.

The IRS had exactly ZERO, ZILCH, NADA when it came to jurisdiction over matters dealing with Socialist Security. So, I like a lot of people found a good use for those forms.

There is difference between control and regulation. Control is shutting off a road. Regulation is when you regulate the flow so that the traffic moves on that road in an orderly fashion.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Eminent Domain doesn't exist in the US? Again border patrol agents have asked for it. Not sure why your or my opinion overrides their respective opinions as they are on the frontlines.

The tradition in the US is a bit different than most countries. Here we place a primacy on individual rights. Instead of asking why the will of individual property owners should override that of the border patrol, we first as the converse - why should the will of the border patrol override that of individual property owners?

Your use of the term "frontlines" suggests you buy into the war justification, which I find ridiculous.

Except they are on the frontlines. They have guns, they have taken casualties and the people trying to cross illegally are often brutalized by coyotes and drug cartel members. The wall IMO is necessary. You are of course free to disagree, it is a free country. And they are SMEs. If a doctor told you that you needed surgery would you dismiss his opinion because others disagree with it? He is the expert for a reason. Border Patrol agents are experts in border security and they are pleading for a wall. You show a lot of hubris ignoring their please. Unfortunate.

Did it ever occur to you that everybody wants things to make their job easier? Years ago I worked in a warehouse. The workers said they needed air conditioning in order to be as productive as management wanted.

The problem was putting AC in a warehouse would not work and it would have the energy bill sucking up a significant portion of the company's profits.

We are NOT talking border security with the wall. What you're talking about is an attempt to stop American citizens and the people from south of the border from engaging in mutually beneficial relationships. You'd be better served with some regulation. No surgeon ever recommended surgery for a runny nose.

#1) I had a similar situation and the owner did put in AC
#2) This is not a runny a nose, this is a constant bleed.
#3) I disagree this is mutual beneficial.

He doesn't seem to understand that's what ports of entry are for.

.

No, I don't understand what the relevance of it is. YOU don't know what the bottom line is as to what ports of entry are for... OR maybe you know, but are like Ray.

 

[toobfreak]

I may be playing the devil's advocate just to show you the flaws in your thinking process

Silly man, I'm an expert logician, used to teach it. There are no flaws in my thought process since they are axiomatic tautologies. You're not whipping anything but your own ego.

 

[OKTexas]

You are lying. It's ONE of your laundry list reasons for being for the wall

EXCUSE ME for interjecting here, I see you are STILL arguing about the wall! I honestly don't see what the debate is about:

Indigent Illegals crossing the southern borders in mass quantities? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

This has a negative impact on our resources and wage earning potential for many americans competing in similar job markets that Mexicans do here? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Putting up a complete, better wall would hugely impact their coming here? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

This country safer from potential terrorist intrusion with the wall? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Being for the wall? Are you kidding me? This is never about a wall, it is about national security and sovereignty. If anyone says it is about protectionism, so what if it is? LET ONE PERSON HERE tell me protectionism is bad and they are against it and I will ask them if they have a lock on their front door, if they lock their car, have a security light or security system? LET ONE PERSON HERE tell me they don't PROTECT what they have, and I'll call you a LIAR.

Being for the wall? The issue here is BEING FOR NATIONAL SECURITY. The wall makes us more secure with it than without it. Anyone here arguing against national security is either a commie, an anti-American or has fruit loops for brains.

Better ways to do it? BULL.

Cheaper ways to do it? BULL?

Immoral? Go fuck yourself.

Anyone who claims a wall is "immoral" against these mobs of dirty, stinking, diseased illegals but its not "immoral" for what blindly letting these people into the country is doing to us here, is a fucking idiot. Maybe you don't see it where you live, but we are approaching 12 million of these people. That's about 4% of the population. Cut them off today and in another decade with their kids (all supported by low income government programs that come out of YOUR pocket, they'll be at 10%.

Like all things, you get what you fund. We are funding a low income, low education, low skill, high dependence work force. The exact OPPOSITE of what this country made itself great with.

Enough. End it now. Its the LAW. Defend the borders. I'm tired of hearing people argue against the most basic, fundamental responsibility of the federal government. Trump: tear the shit down until these motherfuckers in Congress say uncle! It's go for broke right now and I say put the bastard democrats in prison if they continue to block what we put you in office to do. If you don't like Trump and didn't put him in office, fine. When you get YOUR guy in office, then it'll be your time to get YOUR agenda carried out.

But I really think democrats oppose the wall so much because THEY KNOW IT WILL WORK. And they don't WANT it to work. Democratic scum care less about Americans than they do every dirty wetback minority they can dig out from under a rock.

That's what we heard 20 years when we started putting up real barriers. And that's what we heard in 2006 when we replaced them with barriers 4 feet higher and that's what we're hearing now as we plan to replace them with barriers another 6 feet higher.

Do you realize Homeland Security is asking 40 billion dollars to secure our southern border. Last year deportations were 170,000. The border patrol estimates that an equal number made it into the country. That's 340,000 people that were either apprehended or made into the country. That works out to about $108,000 per illegal immigrant.

Assuming the wall were 100% effective which of course it won't be then the cost for keeping that 170,000 a year out of the country would be about $216,000 a person. Homeland Security estimated that the wall would reduce illegal immigration by 50% which brings the figure to $432,000 per person. This all assumes that we don't overrun the budget and the wall is effective as Homeland Security projects, and Democrats allow the project to reach completion.

Your number are way off, just in Oct they apprehended 21,000 more than double that of last year.



.

 

[toobfreak]

When America mirrors Venezuela, you'll be as happy as a pig in slop.

DUDE. You have a fucking disconnected with reality. You need serious help. Maybe Thorazine. Were you even conscious the last few years of Obama's reign? Another liberal who doesn't know what day of the week it is while telling everyone else how confused they are!

 

[Porter Rockwell]

I may be playing the devil's advocate just to show you the flaws in your thinking process

Silly man, I'm an expert logician, used to teach it. There are no flaws in my thought process since they are axiomatic tautologies. You're not whipping anything but your own ego.

You could sue your brain for non-support and get a million dollar judgment.

 

[OKTexas]

A- Cost prohibitive
B- Won't work
C- It's racist
D- It would reduce those successfully crossing the border
E- None of the Above

The machine benefits by not having a wall. Business (Republicans) get their cheap labor and (Democrats) get the votes

You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours

There is no excuse for the Republicans not funding the wall.

-Geaux

Yep, given enough time and resources, but they remain and impediment to the progress of illegals.


.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

When America mirrors Venezuela, you'll be as happy as a pig in slop.

DUDE. You have a fucking disconnected with reality. You need serious help. Maybe Thorazine. Were you even conscious the last few years of Obama's reign? Another liberal who doesn't know what day of the week it is while telling everyone else how confused they are!

The moment you called me a liberal is the instant you proved, beyond any question that you are a fake, phony, poseur trying to post here in order to have some relevance. I've NEVER supported a liberal - not with my vote, not with proposed solutions, not in name, not in ideology.

I would call you an idiot, but that would be an insult to the word.

 

[dblack]

Why are you only concerned about border properties? The government uses imminent domain to take properties all the time. Where's your concern for the folks that lose land for a Post Office or other government functions?

I don't support eminent domain at all. But apparently "libertarians" like bripat9643 do. Whodathunkit?

 

[OKTexas]

Because we can't hold them all. You seem to think anyone who wants to should be able to move to America. That would be the end of America.

Absolutely not. We just need to have policies that are fairer and make sense. Do we really think Ethiopians make such good citizens that they should be admitted in a year and Hondurans should have to wait 10 year or more.

Why would we want either unless they have skills this country needs? Have you ever been to rural areas of Honduras?

.

No, but I've been to Guatemala. It's not about letting the in the people we need. It's about changing the environment that sends tens of thousand of people to our border. Instead of sending our military to the our border to sit on their ass and build housing for detainees, we need to clean out the Northern Triangle and stop sending money to these dictators that funnel it to cartels and gangs. We need to increase the immigration limits on Central American countries by only few thousand so there is reasonable wait time. That in itself will reduce the number heading toward our border. By making life better in these countries we will not only reduce illegal immigration but also reduce drugs headed toward the US.

I disagree, we can't police or be the refuge for every country in the world and maintain our lifestyle and culture. We already have too much crime and poverty, there is no reason to import more. Past interventions have proved fruitless and now you want to throw good money after bad. I can't buy that, it's time to take care of Americans and if we need to use force to secure our country, so be it.

.

Would you take a moment and kindly explain American culture to me?

No, if you can't look around at the changes that have already occurred, that's your problem. BTW you asked me for a court case yesterday, I provided it and haven't acknowledged it.

.

 

[Votto]

A- Cost prohibitive
B- Won't work
C- It's racist
D- It would reduce those successfully crossing the border
E- None of the Above

The machine benefits by not having a wall. Business (Republicans) get their cheap labor and (Democrats) get the votes

You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours

There is no excuse for the Republicans not funding the wall.

-Geaux

A better question would be, how is building a wall so wrong when it feels so right?

 

[OKTexas]

You are lying. It's ONE of your laundry list reasons for being for the wall

EXCUSE ME for interjecting here, I see you are STILL arguing about the wall! I honestly don't see what the debate is about:

Indigent Illegals crossing the southern borders in mass quantities? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

This has a negative impact on our resources and wage earning potential for many americans competing in similar job markets that Mexicans do here? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Putting up a complete, better wall would hugely impact their coming here? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

This country safer from potential terrorist intrusion with the wall? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Being for the wall? Are you kidding me? This is never about a wall, it is about national security and sovereignty. If anyone says it is about protectionism, so what if it is? LET ONE PERSON HERE tell me protectionism is bad and they are against it and I will ask them if they have a lock on their front door, if they lock their car, have a security light or security system? LET ONE PERSON HERE tell me they don't PROTECT what they have, and I'll call you a LIAR.

Being for the wall? The issue here is BEING FOR NATIONAL SECURITY. The wall makes us more secure with it than without it. Anyone here arguing against national security is either a commie, an anti-American or has fruit loops for brains.

Better ways to do it? BULL.

Cheaper ways to do it? BULL?

Immoral? Go fuck yourself.

Anyone who claims a wall is "immoral" against these mobs of dirty, stinking, diseased illegals but its not "immoral" for what blindly letting these people into the country is doing to us here, is a fucking idiot. Maybe you don't see it where you live, but we are approaching 12 million of these people. That's about 4% of the population. Cut them off today and in another decade with their kids (all supported by low income government programs that come out of YOUR pocket, they'll be at 10%.

Like all things, you get what you fund. We are funding a low income, low education, low skill, high dependence work force. The exact OPPOSITE of what this country made itself great with.

Enough. End it now. Its the LAW. Defend the borders. I'm tired of hearing people argue against the most basic, fundamental responsibility of the federal government. Trump: tear the shit down until these motherfuckers in Congress say uncle! It's go for broke right now and I say put the bastard democrats in prison if they continue to block what we put you in office to do. If you don't like Trump and didn't put him in office, fine. When you get YOUR guy in office, then it'll be your time to get YOUR agenda carried out.

But I really think democrats oppose the wall so much because THEY KNOW IT WILL WORK. And they don't WANT it to work. Democratic scum care less about Americans than they do every dirty wetback minority they can dig out from under a rock.

Did anyone ever tell you that you are freaking HILARIOUS? Yours was the funniest freaking post I've seen since I've been on this board. Thank you for starting my day off with a laugh. Now down to business:

1) I am not arguing with ANYONE about your silly wall

2) This is NOT a debate forum, so we are not debating anything

3) Just because you make a bold assertion and put it in big blue letters will not make it come true

4) EVERY non - partisan study I have read contradicts what the white supremacists are feeding Congress. NOW, let me show you how this works:

"Despite all this, illegal immigration’s overall impact on the US economy is small. Low-skilled native workers who compete with unauthorized immigrants are the clearest losers. US employers, on the other hand, gain from lower labor costs and the ability to use their land, capital, and technology more productively. The stakes are highest for the unauthorized immigrants themselves, who see very substantial income gains after migrating. If we exclude these immigrants from the calculus, however (as domestic policymakers are naturally inclined to do), the small net gain that remains after subtracting US workers’ losses from US employers’ gains is tiny. And if we account for the small fiscal burden that unauthorized immigrants impose, the overall economic benefit is close enough to zero to be essentially a wash"

file:///C:/Users/admin/Downloads/Hanson-Dec09%20(3).pdf

(I had to copy and paste that link so you will have to do likewise to read it)

See the documentation in quotation marks and a citing source? Notice how the study figures in not only the cost, but the contribution of the foreigner as well? When you do that, you get a different economic picture.

You want people to take sides and if they don't agree with you and then you use mob rule to ridicule and harass them? That's your strategy? No wonder public opinion is swinging left.

5) The goalposts are once again being moved. As soon as I answer one objection, you build the wall guys conjure up another. My current discussion is that Ray has a totally different argument - and at least his argument is half ass honest. Yours is absolute stupidity.

This is NOT an issue about National Security because the American people are WILLINGLY doing business with the foreigners. There is no threat of war and they are not taking any more than we are willing to give

6) Just because you can deny what I'm saying will NEVER disprove it

7) You can go fuck yourself too. I'd prefer to have said that in person

8) I've never weighed in on the morality of your silly wall so you had to create a straw man there in order to buffer the ass kicking you're taking here

9) Your dumbassery is really showing. THREE times in this thread I have told you I'm not on the left; that I voted for Trump. So, lying won't give much credence to your B.S.

10) Finally, all of this "wall" business was the talking points of the left BEFORE it was right wing fodder. You should know the history of the arguments you're making.

It's damn foolish to trash the Constitution, take a dump on your unalienable Rights, and deliberately attempt to make America a third world dictatorship on the basis of lies. Last night I heard the president of Egypt say that we are the world's strongest military power and it was our responsibility to help fight tyranny. I don't know if I agree with his proposition; however, it is the epitome of idiocy to try and duplicate the ways of people who are inferior to you.

A better use of our money and time is to help other nations become like us so they don't feel a need to be at war with each other and not have the requisite knowledge to build a constitutional Republic with the potential of being financially strong and humane toward others.

Here's a live link: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/Hanson-Dec09.pdf

And pardon me if I disregard information provided by a left wing one worlder think tank.

.

Well champ, the joke is now on you. That was a link used by a pro-wall supporter in a debate with someone on another board. I chose to read it.

Thank you for being dishonest about it. It's going to make it easier to prove that build the wall guy is not the beaming paragon of virtue he thinks he is. left wing one worlder think tank... LMAO.

Did you bother to look at the other projects Hanson is involved in? His bias is obvious like most left wing academics. The stagnant numbers he used are totally outdated, they haven't changed in almost 15 years. Anyone who believes there are only 12 million illegals in this country are delusional, real numbers are most likely 4 times that, or higher.

.

 

[eagle1462010]

You are lying. It's ONE of your laundry list reasons for being for the wall

EXCUSE ME for interjecting here, I see you are STILL arguing about the wall! I honestly don't see what the debate is about:

Indigent Illegals crossing the southern borders in mass quantities? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

This has a negative impact on our resources and wage earning potential for many americans competing in similar job markets that Mexicans do here? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Putting up a complete, better wall would hugely impact their coming here? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

This country safer from potential terrorist intrusion with the wall? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Being for the wall? Are you kidding me? This is never about a wall, it is about national security and sovereignty. If anyone says it is about protectionism, so what if it is? LET ONE PERSON HERE tell me protectionism is bad and they are against it and I will ask them if they have a lock on their front door, if they lock their car, have a security light or security system? LET ONE PERSON HERE tell me they don't PROTECT what they have, and I'll call you a LIAR.

Being for the wall? The issue here is BEING FOR NATIONAL SECURITY. The wall makes us more secure with it than without it. Anyone here arguing against national security is either a commie, an anti-American or has fruit loops for brains.

Better ways to do it? BULL.

Cheaper ways to do it? BULL?

Immoral? Go fuck yourself.

Anyone who claims a wall is "immoral" against these mobs of dirty, stinking, diseased illegals but its not "immoral" for what blindly letting these people into the country is doing to us here, is a fucking idiot. Maybe you don't see it where you live, but we are approaching 12 million of these people. That's about 4% of the population. Cut them off today and in another decade with their kids (all supported by low income government programs that come out of YOUR pocket, they'll be at 10%.

Like all things, you get what you fund. We are funding a low income, low education, low skill, high dependence work force. The exact OPPOSITE of what this country made itself great with.

Enough. End it now. Its the LAW. Defend the borders. I'm tired of hearing people argue against the most basic, fundamental responsibility of the federal government. Trump: tear the shit down until these motherfuckers in Congress say uncle! It's go for broke right now and I say put the bastard democrats in prison if they continue to block what we put you in office to do. If you don't like Trump and didn't put him in office, fine. When you get YOUR guy in office, then it'll be your time to get YOUR agenda carried out.

But I really think democrats oppose the wall so much because THEY KNOW IT WILL WORK. And they don't WANT it to work. Democratic scum care less about Americans than they do every dirty wetback minority they can dig out from under a rock.

Did anyone ever tell you that you are freaking HILARIOUS? Yours was the funniest freaking post I've seen since I've been on this board. Thank you for starting my day off with a laugh. Now down to business:

1) I am not arguing with ANYONE about your silly wall

2) This is NOT a debate forum, so we are not debating anything

3) Just because you make a bold assertion and put it in big blue letters will not make it come true

4) EVERY non - partisan study I have read contradicts what the white supremacists are feeding Congress. NOW, let me show you how this works:

"Despite all this, illegal immigration’s overall impact on the US economy is small. Low-skilled native workers who compete with unauthorized immigrants are the clearest losers. US employers, on the other hand, gain from lower labor costs and the ability to use their land, capital, and technology more productively. The stakes are highest for the unauthorized immigrants themselves, who see very substantial income gains after migrating. If we exclude these immigrants from the calculus, however (as domestic policymakers are naturally inclined to do), the small net gain that remains after subtracting US workers’ losses from US employers’ gains is tiny. And if we account for the small fiscal burden that unauthorized immigrants impose, the overall economic benefit is close enough to zero to be essentially a wash"

file:///C:/Users/admin/Downloads/Hanson-Dec09%20(3).pdf

(I had to copy and paste that link so you will have to do likewise to read it)

See the documentation in quotation marks and a citing source? Notice how the study figures in not only the cost, but the contribution of the foreigner as well? When you do that, you get a different economic picture.

You want people to take sides and if they don't agree with you and then you use mob rule to ridicule and harass them? That's your strategy? No wonder public opinion is swinging left.

5) The goalposts are once again being moved. As soon as I answer one objection, you build the wall guys conjure up another. My current discussion is that Ray has a totally different argument - and at least his argument is half ass honest. Yours is absolute stupidity.

This is NOT an issue about National Security because the American people are WILLINGLY doing business with the foreigners. There is no threat of war and they are not taking any more than we are willing to give

6) Just because you can deny what I'm saying will NEVER disprove it

7) You can go fuck yourself too. I'd prefer to have said that in person

8) I've never weighed in on the morality of your silly wall so you had to create a straw man there in order to buffer the ass kicking you're taking here

9) Your dumbassery is really showing. THREE times in this thread I have told you I'm not on the left; that I voted for Trump. So, lying won't give much credence to your B.S.

10) Finally, all of this "wall" business was the talking points of the left BEFORE it was right wing fodder. You should know the history of the arguments you're making.

It's damn foolish to trash the Constitution, take a dump on your unalienable Rights, and deliberately attempt to make America a third world dictatorship on the basis of lies. Last night I heard the president of Egypt say that we are the world's strongest military power and it was our responsibility to help fight tyranny. I don't know if I agree with his proposition; however, it is the epitome of idiocy to try and duplicate the ways of people who are inferior to you.

A better use of our money and time is to help other nations become like us so they don't feel a need to be at war with each other and not have the requisite knowledge to build a constitutional Republic with the potential of being financially strong and humane toward others.

You are lying. It's ONE of your laundry list reasons for being for the wall

EXCUSE ME for interjecting here, I see you are STILL arguing about the wall! I honestly don't see what the debate is about:

Indigent Illegals crossing the southern borders in mass quantities? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

This has a negative impact on our resources and wage earning potential for many americans competing in similar job markets that Mexicans do here? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Putting up a complete, better wall would hugely impact their coming here? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

This country safer from potential terrorist intrusion with the wall? THERE CAN BE NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Being for the wall? Are you kidding me? This is never about a wall, it is about national security and sovereignty. If anyone says it is about protectionism, so what if it is? LET ONE PERSON HERE tell me protectionism is bad and they are against it and I will ask them if they have a lock on their front door, if they lock their car, have a security light or security system? LET ONE PERSON HERE tell me they don't PROTECT what they have, and I'll call you a LIAR.

Being for the wall? The issue here is BEING FOR NATIONAL SECURITY. The wall makes us more secure with it than without it. Anyone here arguing against national security is either a commie, an anti-American or has fruit loops for brains.

Better ways to do it? BULL.

Cheaper ways to do it? BULL?

Immoral? Go fuck yourself.

Anyone who claims a wall is "immoral" against these mobs of dirty, stinking, diseased illegals but its not "immoral" for what blindly letting these people into the country is doing to us here, is a fucking idiot. Maybe you don't see it where you live, but we are approaching 12 million of these people. That's about 4% of the population. Cut them off today and in another decade with their kids (all supported by low income government programs that come out of YOUR pocket, they'll be at 10%.

Like all things, you get what you fund. We are funding a low income, low education, low skill, high dependence work force. The exact OPPOSITE of what this country made itself great with.

Enough. End it now. Its the LAW. Defend the borders. I'm tired of hearing people argue against the most basic, fundamental responsibility of the federal government. Trump: tear the shit down until these motherfuckers in Congress say uncle! It's go for broke right now and I say put the bastard democrats in prison if they continue to block what we put you in office to do. If you don't like Trump and didn't put him in office, fine. When you get YOUR guy in office, then it'll be your time to get YOUR agenda carried out.

But I really think democrats oppose the wall so much because THEY KNOW IT WILL WORK. And they don't WANT it to work. Democratic scum care less about Americans than they do every dirty wetback minority they can dig out from under a rock.

Did anyone ever tell you that you are freaking HILARIOUS? Yours was the funniest freaking post I've seen since I've been on this board. Thank you for starting my day off with a laugh. Now down to business:

1) I am not arguing with ANYONE about your silly wall

2) This is NOT a debate forum, so we are not debating anything

3) Just because you make a bold assertion and put it in big blue letters will not make it come true

4) EVERY non - partisan study I have read contradicts what the white supremacists are feeding Congress. NOW, let me show you how this works:

"Despite all this, illegal immigration’s overall impact on the US economy is small. Low-skilled native workers who compete with unauthorized immigrants are the clearest losers. US employers, on the other hand, gain from lower labor costs and the ability to use their land, capital, and technology more productively. The stakes are highest for the unauthorized immigrants themselves, who see very substantial income gains after migrating. If we exclude these immigrants from the calculus, however (as domestic policymakers are naturally inclined to do), the small net gain that remains after subtracting US workers’ losses from US employers’ gains is tiny. And if we account for the small fiscal burden that unauthorized immigrants impose, the overall economic benefit is close enough to zero to be essentially a wash"

file:///C:/Users/admin/Downloads/Hanson-Dec09%20(3).pdf

(I had to copy and paste that link so you will have to do likewise to read it)

See the documentation in quotation marks and a citing source? Notice how the study figures in not only the cost, but the contribution of the foreigner as well? When you do that, you get a different economic picture.

You want people to take sides and if they don't agree with you and then you use mob rule to ridicule and harass them? That's your strategy? No wonder public opinion is swinging left.

5) The goalposts are once again being moved. As soon as I answer one objection, you build the wall guys conjure up another. My current discussion is that Ray has a totally different argument - and at least his argument is half ass honest. Yours is absolute stupidity.

This is NOT an issue about National Security because the American people are WILLINGLY doing business with the foreigners. There is no threat of war and they are not taking any more than we are willing to give

6) Just because you can deny what I'm saying will NEVER disprove it

7) You can go fuck yourself too. I'd prefer to have said that in person

8) I've never weighed in on the morality of your silly wall so you had to create a straw man there in order to buffer the ass kicking you're taking here

9) Your dumbassery is really showing. THREE times in this thread I have told you I'm not on the left; that I voted for Trump. So, lying won't give much credence to your B.S.

10) Finally, all of this "wall" business was the talking points of the left BEFORE it was right wing fodder. You should know the history of the arguments you're making.

It's damn foolish to trash the Constitution, take a dump on your unalienable Rights, and deliberately attempt to make America a third world dictatorship on the basis of lies. Last night I heard the president of Egypt say that we are the world's strongest military power and it was our responsibility to help fight tyranny. I don't know if I agree with his proposition; however, it is the epitome of idiocy to try and duplicate the ways of people who are inferior to you.

A better use of our money and time is to help other nations become like us so they don't feel a need to be at war with each other and not have the requisite knowledge to build a constitutional Republic with the potential of being financially strong and humane toward others.

It is not my responsibility to pay to make them become like us. It is their problem. Their country. And yheir responsibility.

You will either be a leader of a follower. You choose to be a follower. When America mirrors Venezuela, you'll be as happy as a pig in slop.

How the hell is that......Border Security is part of the responsibilities of the Gov't under the Constitution..........Enumerated powers..........it is not the elephant in the room..............Mandatory spending is..........not discretionary. Health Care, Pensions........are the part that is bankrupting us...........not to mention the Trillions spent in Wars.

You are either for the Laws in this country or you are not. Making excuses DOESN'T EXCUSE you for pushing for violating our laws. For at least 3 decades Americans have demanded that this gets fixed. Falling on the Career politicians who have refused to do it. They respect our laws here or they can LEAVE.

To me.........adding teeth to the laws against businesses who hire them would fix a lot of it. Adding to the 1986 law that would force a verification system that would avoid the problems with the fake Id's being used now. And sending to jail businesses who knowingly hire them.

I'm against you..............your remarks are for open borders..........While you say you don't care one way or another.......your words say as much.

 

[sealybobo]

A- Cost prohibitive
B- Won't work
C- It's racist
D- It would reduce those successfully crossing the border
E- None of the Above

The machine benefits by not having a wall. Business (Republicans) get their cheap labor and (Democrats) get the votes

You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours

There is no excuse for the Republicans not funding the wall.

-Geaux

Capitalism is worthless if we need a wall.

It’s just another ism.

But just like it’s not fair china manipulates it’s currency and pays workers $1 a day, Mexico doesn’t pay its masses well. They workers have yet to rise up. Too much corruption.

So it’s not fair American blue collar workers have to compete with Mexicans who will live ten in an apartment and work for half what the American will work.

It’s undermining the middle class.

Only a well regulated capitalism by people who represent we the people is a good ism. Every country protects its vital industries so why do you think America didn’t? Because we had the highest paid workers in the world. The unions. Republicans wanted to send all those union jobs overseas. Break the union and reneg on pensions.

 

[sealybobo]

I’ll say this. America is waiting for the workers around the world to start making more money so it’s not worth going to China or Mexico because you’ll have to deal with the Chinese workers unions. But China won’t allow that

 

[OKTexas]

The tradition in the US is a bit different than most countries. Here we place a primacy on individual rights. Instead of asking why the will of individual property owners should override that of the border patrol, we first as the converse - why should the will of the border patrol override that of individual property owners?

Your use of the term "frontlines" suggests you buy into the war justification, which I find ridiculous.

Except they are on the frontlines. They have guns, they have taken casualties and the people trying to cross illegally are often brutalized by coyotes and drug cartel members. The wall IMO is necessary. You are of course free to disagree, it is a free country. And they are SMEs. If a doctor told you that you needed surgery would you dismiss his opinion because others disagree with it? He is the expert for a reason. Border Patrol agents are experts in border security and they are pleading for a wall. You show a lot of hubris ignoring their please. Unfortunate.

Did it ever occur to you that everybody wants things to make their job easier? Years ago I worked in a warehouse. The workers said they needed air conditioning in order to be as productive as management wanted.

The problem was putting AC in a warehouse would not work and it would have the energy bill sucking up a significant portion of the company's profits.

We are NOT talking border security with the wall. What you're talking about is an attempt to stop American citizens and the people from south of the border from engaging in mutually beneficial relationships. You'd be better served with some regulation. No surgeon ever recommended surgery for a runny nose.

#1) I had a similar situation and the owner did put in AC
#2) This is not a runny a nose, this is a constant bleed.
#3) I disagree this is mutual beneficial.

He doesn't seem to understand that's what ports of entry are for.

.

No, I don't understand what the relevance of it is. YOU don't know what the bottom line is as to what ports of entry are for... OR maybe you know, but are like Ray.

Mutually beneficial cross border relationships are required by law to be conducted through the ports of entry. A wall won't change that.

.

 

[eagle1462010]

Except they are on the frontlines. They have guns, they have taken casualties and the people trying to cross illegally are often brutalized by coyotes and drug cartel members. The wall IMO is necessary. You are of course free to disagree, it is a free country. And they are SMEs. If a doctor told you that you needed surgery would you dismiss his opinion because others disagree with it? He is the expert for a reason. Border Patrol agents are experts in border security and they are pleading for a wall. You show a lot of hubris ignoring their please. Unfortunate.

Did it ever occur to you that everybody wants things to make their job easier? Years ago I worked in a warehouse. The workers said they needed air conditioning in order to be as productive as management wanted.

The problem was putting AC in a warehouse would not work and it would have the energy bill sucking up a significant portion of the company's profits.

We are NOT talking border security with the wall. What you're talking about is an attempt to stop American citizens and the people from south of the border from engaging in mutually beneficial relationships. You'd be better served with some regulation. No surgeon ever recommended surgery for a runny nose.

We tried laws, we tried regulation, we tried more border patrol agents, and these people still come here against our wishes. Now we need more barriers to stop them from getting in.


Sent from my iPad using USMessageBoard.com

We have NEVER tried regulation. You are operating on laws that are in excess of FIFTY years old and don't even apply to the situation.

The fact that you don't understand we are NOT going to keep people out discredits anything you say on this board. Whether we like it or not, wall or no wall, they will come. BTW, in view of what I just told you, there is a question you should ask in light of my response. Surely, you are not so much of a dullard that you don't know what that question is.

If that seems unfair to you, it's the treatment I got from your side. Then, again, you have only assumed things; you never ASK.

1986 regulation was tried to deny their ability to work here. Penalized businesses for hiring them. The I-9 form. They skirted this law by ignoring forged ids. A network was set up to give fake ids to illegals. When caught workers get deported and come right back

That wasn't regulation, but unconstitutional control. Here is what is wrong with what happened there:

The IRS send out a form with an OMB number on it (that's the Office of Management and Budget.) That form told employers by what authority the government was "requiring" compliance.

The IRS had exactly ZERO, ZILCH, NADA when it came to jurisdiction over matters dealing with Socialist Security. So, I like a lot of people found a good use for those forms.

There is difference between control and regulation. Control is shutting off a road. Regulation is when you regulate the flow so that the traffic moves on that road in an orderly fashion.

The law was to force businesses to require id's for verification to work here. The Forgery network gave them id's and SSN's...........that system failed us........not the intent. The intent was to verify their LEGAL right to work here. Whether E-Verify will fix that is not quite known. That or something like that could very well fix that problem. When they can't work they will self deport.

OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU would have to SPONSOR THEM..........follow the law instead of making excuses.......and fix the problem once and for all.

Your little cute version doesn't change that one iota.........Americans want it fixed........by all means available..........The wall and better border security is part of that equation.............whether you agree is immaterial on that issue.

 

[Cosmos]

It’s a waste of money . If the goal is to address illegal immigration, then that money is better spent in other ways .

More ins agents , more immigrantion courts , more judges . More enforcement vs companies who hire illegals . That’s a better use if the money .

That's an extremely stupid position, especially if it's money you're worried about. Personnel are always the most expensive component to any project. And not one of those things are an actual barrier. We need to barrier to deter and prevent the sort of border confrontations we saw with the caravan. If you think we should be protecting our borders with tear gas grenades and troops, you're absolutely nuts. And it will only be a matter of time before there's an armed confrontation with casualties. Democrats are immoral for encouraging illegal immigration with their sanctuary and soft border policies. Wise up.

 

[sealybobo]

A- Cost prohibitive
B- Won't work
C- It's racist
D- It would reduce those successfully crossing the border
E- None of the Above

The machine benefits by not having a wall. Business (Republicans) get their cheap labor and (Democrats) get the votes

You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours

There is no excuse for the Republicans not funding the wall.

-Geaux

Yep, given enough time and resources, but they remain and impediment to the progress of illegals.


.

Not enough to be worth $5 bill. You won’t watch the wall after you build it so it will eventually become a huge mistake.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

It has been explained to you in great detail how the wall has unintended consequences. Yet you choose to deny the realities of our times. For you, the wall is a religion. As you've stated, "you just want them (sic) gone. As this thread progresses, it will be interesting to see how little value your fellow build the wall supporters feel about your attitude toward Freeom and Liberty... ESPECIALLY if they have children who may have live in the aftermath of what you hope to create.